Deep Singh

don't mention it bhaji. Ok..the info in Ency. of Sikhism can be a bit outdated, as it is from 1999. And the Nanakshahi calender was recognized after that. Almost all dates are fixed in the NsC, but Holla Mohalla, Bandi Choor (Divali) and Parkash Guru Nanak Sahib are moveable. This is because Sanatani Sikhs (Sant Samaj, Nihangs, Hazoor Sahib, Patna Sahib etc) don't want that these dates should also be changed in accordance with the NsC. so before implementing the NsC, all groups came to a comprimise. so the Holla Mohalla dates will be changing each year (as in the Bikrami calender) Here is a list for the coming years made by PS Purewal. 2003 19 Mar 2004 7 Mar 2005 26 Mar 2006 15 Mar 2007 4 Mar 2008 22 Mar 2009 11 Mar 2010 1 Mar 2011 20 Mar 2012 9 Mar 2013 28 Mar 2014 17 Mar 2015 6 Mar 2016 24 Mar 2017 13 Mar 2018 2 Mar 2019 21 Mar 2020 10 Mar

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/way/holamohalla.htm http://www.unitedsikhs.org/holla%20mohalla.pdf http://www.singhsabha.com/holla_mohalla.htm http://www.keshgarhsahib.com/ Also the UK Nihang site has their respective opinion on Holla Mohalla on their website. Ency. of Sikhism: i hope that is enough info on the background. daily schedule: i am not sure on this part. but there is at least Gatkha/Shastar Vidya display. I know that the Nihang Jathebandian gather at Sri Anandpur Sahib. As they don't use normal transportations, they come on their horses...and some have been riding for days. So they are tired when they get their. And there they set up tents and usually on the day there is Jatka of goat, Sukha drinking, and other things related to Nihangs.

thanks bro....will give feedback once i have read whole book.

mates i have taken kava once....i was sick, had cold...it was winter time...doctors were far away....so my mom made a coup of cha without milk...with some stuff in'it. i guess that is kava....is that a drug?? :wub: now i am drugist even...

Bhain, Kava is kind of Kashmiri cha....it is used in Punjab also. i guess it is nothing worse than tea.. :T: just has that colour. I think if the are serving alcohol...that is a big deal. i don't know what to say on kava. Ok just for a note, if something like this happens in the future(alcohol, smoke, other beadbi) and you are sure of it....go together in a group of concerned people, have a spokesman: 1. Contact the Gurdwara Management Commt. 2. Refer to them about the Sikh Rehat Maryada (they probably know of it). Get their stand on the issue. 3. Tell that straight-forward that if they continue to do allow such beadbi, a serious step will be taken. 4. Before doing it send some fax to Akal Takht, or contact someone in SGPC...so the step local sangat takes is known to the authorities. 5. If the management does not do anything and openly declares it's disbelief in the Sikh Rehat, tell them that you will not accept any such acts besides Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And if it is continued, you will be forced to remove the Saroops. 6. If the situations gets at this point; peacefully remove the Saroops from the Gurdwara. This is not to be done violently, remember you are living in a foreign country...God knows what people may make out such a step. the "Ontario Grewal Baba" thing went well, with Waheguru's Kirpa....but be careful. 7. Once all the Saroops are removed....their "Gurdwara" is no move than a cult-temple. they can do whatever they may like there. 8. If t he situations gets bad, request Akal Takht to declare a tankh or issue a legal statement [Hukamnama] on the issue to the local sangat. My humble opinion. ps. and for the post made about Nirankaaris. Brother, they are not Sikhs and we have nothing to do with them. Leave them alone. If they do OPEN parchaar like in Amritsar 1978, like the mushroom group in london...is that is the case...a serious step should be taken. but if they are at their local dera temple....worshiping their fake gurus...let them do whatever they do. for such things....PARCHAAR is needed, not "serious actions". and for the Batras, there are some Batreh on this forum...discuss the matters that you disagree upon before rusing to the site. Veero, i have been reading some things about Batreh, they have a rich history. the Bhat Vahis were written by them. Bhat singers have there Banis added to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. They were celestial singers of Guru-ghar. i don't understand what you have against them?? am i wrong :wub:

10th reg, StopSingh, Sikh Soldier jeo... you know what? when i was writing my post.... ....i stopped after 'Tohra was a good guy.....' and the next words were 'BUT he did this and that'...much of what you guys wrote and maybe a little more. but after writing that, i thought over it and found out that i shouldn't judge him as everything i know of him is hearsay. so cut short....i know what you are talking about....but still :yehyehyeh:

hey Singhstah....my mom too! yeah Bsbk Bhaji, that series is the best...i think.

Tohra was a good guy...more i think we shouldn't judge other without having proof..if someone has please share. and SORRY BHAINJI! forgive me...

are there even hardcore sgpc followers... :H: wonder who that is...

ok just like to add that 2 files are missing... Mool Pathh Rahatnama Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhaag 4 and Panj Mel :wub:

Thanks Nonihal Veerji. I didn't know he had updated his site. I read some interesting notes there for some months ago. Now i have something more to do in the vacations... :wub: no seriosly...i was looking for literature on Rehitnameh. and here we go..

not harsh mnt...but i think it is often very hard to explain to others when we don't understand the thing completely ourselves...it happens to me all the time.

http://www.gurbani.org/webart168.htm article on Joti Svaroop - The Original State. i haven't found a site that explains Gurmat in more indepth....the site just great. maybe because all the articles are in english.. maybe the article is not quite what you are looking for...but read it anyway.

Nirgun bro...didn't you read what 10th reg said...he was killed by Kharkoos after he signed som treaty with Rajiv Gandhi. B) so he is probably not alive. in 1980 he became the president of SAD. still there is a group that wants to revive a SAD after his name... i have got a pic of him with Sant Jarnail Singh....if you want i can try to upload it. Sant ji is smiling there.. His full name was Harchand Singh, and Longowal was the pind he as from.

Jahan Veerji, 1. I believe Sikhs are a nation, but a religious community also. I believe this because nation means state or 'a politically organized body of people under a single government'. There is no doubt that Sikhs are a politically organized people, our parliament is SGPC. In theory, our 'state elections' should be help every four years. This year that did happen. I am open for any dust thrown at me for this, but this is my belief that we are a nation....without boundaries or a single leader representing us....or a state system like other....we are a nation of students learning about God....we are attached to each other through the doctrine of Miri-Piri...working for Sarbat Da Bhala. You can also catch me for certain details as: what about Sikhs outside Punjab, before SGPC was formed. etc. but as i said...i believe Sikhs are a nation. A nation does not need to represent any ethnic background, however should be based upon some ideological principles. 2 . I didn't say that anyone who doesn't accept NC is a Hindu, but that they do not accept the calender issued by Akal Takht. 3. The two Takhts outside Punjab: i am not undermining their authority, and i hope they do not undermine the authority of Akal Takht also. 4. 'We should stick with what is authentic'. Brother, do you mean BK? If you are not aware of this, within the Pandit circles (that have the authority to design BK), there is lots of discussion upon which Bikrami calender is right or wrong. The BK used by Sikh writers way one of the various BKs used by the Pandits. If you mean the Dates of Gurpurabs, the Sanatani style of Bikrami dates celebrated by // ious groups is outdated and certainly not authentic. In the articles written by PS Purewal, which do represent what recent Sikh historians have said, it is said that these dates are often not totally correct. If the question is about the authenticity or accuracy of a calender, the Nanakshahi should be chosen. 5. 'This date or that date'. Jahan Veerji, you have misunderstood my point. As English is not the language i use in my common speech, not living in an english speaking country, i might have been unclear in the writing. I am AS MUCH for historic reseach, and finding the accurate dates of the Gurpurabs, but my point was all the research scholars might have done till today, will be outdates in about a century. Scholars might find new evidence which till then had been hidden or not decoded. Perhaps that will give us a better understanding in the future, and maybe the SGPC [if that is our "parliament" in about the next 100 years] should revise the calender according to the findings of that periode. For ex. maybe some of that dates that now are fixed....maybe it is later found that they were actually a day before. So in this context i stressed that the authority of our Quami Approach/Sarbat Khalsa/Akal Takht in the future should be accepted even if they find that the date is a day before. And in that context i pointed out that having 'this date or that date doesn't really matter'; as what matters is that we accept the dates considered authentic by the Akal Takht, a representative body of Panth....AND that we celebrate Gurpurabs and remember what Guru Sahib did on those days and learn from them, shape our future from that. Some might say: okeey...if we are going to have such a "wrong" calender...we can have Bikrami instead....NO. Since the research of today says that the traditional dates at some points are wrong, the Nanakshahi calender should be accepted as per today. The way i see it: those who defend the old calender, know that the dates they are using are wrong [as per t odays research], but they won't accept this. For them tradition is more important. 6. What is the reason behind having a Nanakshahi calender: 'insecurity and attempt to rewrite the past to suit the political agendas of some' you say. A national identity, i say. Just like our Kakaars and our outward appearence. Here we have ideological differences, that should be respected. :wub: Bhul Chuk Maaf Ji

~~~ Bhai Kishana Ji ~~~ Shaheed of the battle of Ruhela in 1621 Entry nr. 4, section 1 - Shaheeds from the time of Sixth Nanak, Guru Hargobind Sahib Bhai Kishana was a supreme soldier in the army of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji. He was a brave and zealous man. He showed his bravery in the battle of Ruhela (Sri Hargobindpur). He fought bravely against the army of Bhagwan Dass Kherar on 27th september 1621, the first day of the battle. Six days after this event, the son of Bhagwan Dass brought the forces of Mughal Subedar from Jalandhar. Even so, the Sikhs of Guru’s Army showed great skills in the battlefield. In the start of day’s battle, Bhai Jatto and Bhai Mathara killed many Mughal soldiers. The five heads of the Sikh forces came forward. Their names were: Bhai Nano, Bhai Kaliyana, Bhai Jagna, Bhai Kishana, Bhai Molak/Maloka. After the Shaheedis of Bhai Jatto, Nano, Mathara and Bhai Molak, Bhai Kishana lead the Sikh troops. He was furious after the Shaheedi of his friends. Quickly, he started waging the sword. In a matter of seconds, he finished the leaders of Mughal forces, Karim Baksh, the brother of Nabih Baksh. After this several other Mughal soldiers were also killed by him. In very short period of time, he did all this. But soon came the moment of his own Shaheedi. In ’Gurbilas Patshahi Chevin’, Bhai Kishana is mentioned with these words: It seems that in the Sikh Army of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, there were two warriors with the name Kishana. Another Bhai Kishana is mentioned in Bhat Vahian, who attained Shaheedi on 27th april, 1635 in the battle of Kartarpur (Jalandhar). He was the son of Bhai Kaoleh (Kaul Ji), grandson of Bhai Ambeeh, and the great grandson of Bhai Udah Karan, and was related to the Chauhan-Rajput family. This article is based on Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer's book 'Sikh Panth de 230 Mahan Shaheed - Jinna 1621 toon 1734 taak Shaheedian Dittian'. More Shaheeds of 1621 Ruhela-battle: Bhai Nanu Ji Bhai Mathara Bhat Ji Bhai Praga Ji

Hey Yasmin, good luck...it would be good if Muslims sisters get their rights. i believe Sikhs should support such efforts, however there is not much we can do without interfering in the affairs of others, therefore i feel it is up to Muslim women and moderate Muslims to make a change in their society.

That i think is true...the belief in One God has perhaps existed before the advent of Islam, so they might also have copied someone. A second mistake that Muslims make when they make this claim, that Guru Nanak was inspired by Sufi/Muslims....is that the Sikh view of One God is something different from the Islamic belief in One God. In Sikhism, Waheguru is everywhere, ever-present. In Islam this is unthinkable, God is outside his creation...in Gurmat it is said that the creation and the Creator are one. It is as simple as that.

:wub: well written article...no doubt. ps. Certain Muslims have accusing Sikhs of being some kind of Muslims and saying that Guru Sahib 'stole' their belief in One God....maybe now they can learn something from the Sikhs

nah mate....but i know how you can add Sardar smilies to your msn.

Thanks for your views StopSingh! I am not an expert on Nanakshahi Calender issue. But as far as i know of it's history, the Nanakshahi Cal. WAS used in the past ALSO! The fact that authors writings stories on Guru Sahiban wrote in Bikrami dates does not mean that they supported a Bikrami calender. For them this was just the method used at that time. It was used by Sikh journalists/writers of the Singh Sabha era. I believe also in Maharaja Ranjeet Singh's time. So this is NOT a new invention. Because of the Sanatani influence among different groups, the implementation of NC has been difficult. Sikh scholars have also had different opinions upon which dates they want to have.... Brother as far as i can see...they issue is not; IF we want to have NC, the issue is what kind or it's details. Even Taksali Singhs in the video Khalistani veer is telling about say that they are not against a seperate calender for the Sikh Quam. They encourage such step, but they are against the usage of different dates which do not correspond to the old Bikrami calender. Mainly because of the shift from lunar to solar calenders. All other points you made...i don't bother to answar. If you don't trust Vedanti...please don't. If you doubt the ability of these guys...please do. However, talking like this does not solve any issues. Everyone knows about how 'good' are leaders are in reality. Whatever the details are, the NC is now accepted by Sri Akal Takht. Published by SGPC....YEAH I KNOW ABOUT THEIR DEEDS ALSO! Will there be a new calender? if Sikh scholars/experts in the future find out that the reseach done by PS Purewal was not complete an d there are sme holes that should be fixed....so be it. a few dates could be changes....if the historic research of the day states that that specific event occured on some other date than the one prescribed in NC, so they can change it. the Christian calender has been through MAJOR changes atleast two times..i think once of a gap of six years was created, that is why Jesus is said to have been born in 6 ad or something.....what's big deal? The Panth is for a seperate calender.....also we know that history given in various accounts is not absolute. there is always room for discussion. in the starting of 1900s scholars thought Puratan Janamsakhian were better accounts, before that Bhai Bala ji's JS had more influence. Now they say that Meharban JS is atleast equally good as Puratan. What happened once has happened, but our understanding of events will change....so i believe it is actually a positive element that we have room for change. Your argument that 'it has been done for centuries' i am not totally supporting. Sometimes, also i have stated that we should do things as in the past, but there should be room for change if we now find that the things done in the past were not quite right. As for saying that Sikh Quam using BK before NC, as i have said before....it was the one calender available at that time.....what other choice did they have? Sikhs have been wanting a Nanakshahi calender for atleast a century from what i have heard...if not more. How long should it be....before we are willing to accept that? I don't feel there is any split between the Panth, just minor disagreements that can be solved. The split is; between the Sikh nation and the Pandits who publish the 'Vikrami Samvat'. Please read their reason for using BK: http://www.bvpindia.com/samvat_2061.htm

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh! As we all know, in the recent days there was much talk of a Islamic rally to be held in London, when they had said some negative things about Sikhism and our Guru Sahiban. Also before this RSS, and various Christian groups have giving negative statements to create a negative/incorrect image of Sikh tenets. With the GREAT efforts of Sikh YOUTH (with others), this rally was cancelled. I am starting this post to give my views how we can tackle these problems in the future, and how i feel we have done some things wrong. Sangat ji.....i feel we should answar all questions set by Muslims, Hindus, Christians or other through the Gurbani, the Words Guru Sahiban have shared with us...Dhur Ki Bani! Most of the times it happens that when a muslim makes a negative remarks towards Sikhi....we start critizing their beliefs. like saying...'they will get virgins after death'. Sangat ji.....it is NOT up to us to translate or mistranslate their scriptures....many muslims do believe this...others do NOT...the same goes for womens rights! it is really a question of interpretation. And that is their own business. we can't learn them their own Koran... B) For us: it is to share with the world what Guru Sahib have told us. and for that we should not use the approach 'because they (muslims) are "wrong", they can't say this and that about Sikhi' We have to prove from OUR scriptures that Gurbani is simly the TRUTH, because that is what Guru Sahib have given us. We are not to ponder upon whether other writings are true or false [as some misquoted and wrongs translations of a Pankti were presented here in a thread]. We have the TRUTH! why waste our time! if they have the truth...be so...good for them...is not...may God bless them. So my humble request to all Sangat is that when ever we are to answar the propaganda by various non-Sikh groups on Sikhism, we should not indulge ourselves in Nindya as they are doing [by insulting Sikh tenets]...but try to answar as best as we could, through the understanding Waheguru has given us...from our own Gurbani. If we really believe that is the TRUTH., then that should be enough. no more....that and that prophet had so and so many wives...whatever. such things are up to themselves to find out. we should concentrate on our own, and only share the Word of Guru Sahiban. So we should all study Gurbani. and not what others do or did wrong. BhuL Chuk Maaf Ji

Yeah, Actually they thought of bringing it out in 1999 (also before that there were thinking... ). StopSingh, i believe the complaints were answared or atleast considered before designing the Nanakshahi calender. My point is: once it has been implemented by Akal Takht, and all discussions are over and the dates have been fixed according to what is the 'best' solution (not necessarily the traditional approach), everyone should accept that as the Panthic calender. Do you think the Hijri or the Christian calenders are 'perfect'? Facts state that Jesus was in reality not born in December, still almost all christians celebrate that as his birthday. When fixing dates, on the basis of various accounts given, there have to be some considerations. We can't say that the way traditional (sanatan) dates are correct, if a majority of the accounts give some other date. In fact, it is not a matter of this date or that date, it is a matter of ONE PANTHIC CELEBRATION! I don't think Guru Sahib really "bother" if we celebrate Gurpurabs a day before or after. The thing that matters is: we celebrate it, we remember our past, and we try to shape our future on the basis of their teachings and their doings. and we do it together!

well done Mehtab Singh ji, but i just like to ask....what is the history behind Babbar Khalsa. which section of the Sikh community was behind the Babbars? Were they all from AKJ? Who were the founding members besides Bhai Wadhawa Singh? and are there different groups within Babbars...i really don't know much about them...apart from what i read online. thanks guys! and bring some more pics! :wub: