VanHelsingh

Absolutely correct. Without it they will slip back into the old ways. Of course it's not their fault at all, but just a cause of their environment.

So true. The average man needs to awaken and realise how he is being manipulated by those above him into hating and hurting his fellow man. Of course there's isolated incidents of bad people doing bad things for personal gain, envy, etc., but I believe, on the whole, everyone just wants to live in peace with others. That's exactly what crossed my mind when I saw these videos. The echoes of the pogroms against the Sikhs are so strong in what's happening in Burma. Disgustingly barbaric behaviour.

Some rather disturbing and heart-breaking events occuring in Burma in recent days. Burmese Buddhists have been targetting Muslims, and there's been the usual murdering, looting, raping, and burning alive of civilians whilst the Burmese police standby, watch, and do absolutely nothing. WARNING: Very graphic video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htD9PFHpmgw What is it with these 3rd world countries and their mob culture that allows such things to happen? I honestly don't know much about the background history to these troubles so I'll definitely be trying to learn what lead to this desperate situation.

Going by some of the above photos featuring Sant Jarnail Singh and his little boy, you'd think going by some of the stuff posted by forummers on previous occasions that Sant Ji would ignore or even go as far as to not acknowledge his children. Yet photographic evidence suggests otherwise. Interesting.

Who was Baba Ram SIngh Ji?

I was listening to katha a few weeks ago, and this very issue was being discussed. Bhai Sahib was commenting on how there's many types of seva for Sikhs to do in this day and age, and we shouldn't assume that "chakking phatte" is the only acceptable form of seva for a Sikh to do in terms of panthic duty. He was explaining how everyone has their own strengths and personality, and those strengths should be utilised and put to good use for the benefit of the quom. He said that if anyone puts limitations on you about how to achieve something don't pay any heed to such individuals, and we should remember we aren't doing seva for people to praise us, etc., but we're doing seva for Guru Sahib. I must say I was rather impressed by such an intelligent and forward-thinking approach to what is a traditional and fundamental part of the Sikh faith. That's why I shine shoes. Although if anyone told me to go home and get my shine box, there's going to be trouble...

Sorry, I should've said 'Jorehya' instead of 'Jutiya'. My pendu roots have been exposed!

THIS is the key strand of the argument that needs to be emphasised repeatedly by Sikhs whenever such discussions take place. The above argument needs to sink into the heads of the average Indian so that he or she doesn't assume "Anti-Indian Govt = Anti-Hindu". That simply isn't true at all.

@ UKLondonSikh Ji - I sometimes wonder whether there is room for logic and reason when following a spiritual path. Logic and reason would argue there's nothing beyond what is immediately apparent to our senses, yet we know there is more out there. --- On a general note, it's sad to see how someone like Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji is being dismissed out of hand on this thread. I wouldn't presume to know more than them at all. We don't know what they did in terms of intense bhagti for them to reach these conclusions. Despite what I've seen and experienced in my life regarding so-called holy men, I still believe in the great Mahapurashs of the past. I think my brain has been addled by kaljug.

There were some questionable and worrying things occuring from the apparently "proper" kharkoos (i.e. non-Black Cats) that left many wondering who exactly they were protecting the people from. I've heard from some of the old timers at my Gurughar when I was a kid about beatings, humiliation, and blackmail of wedding "baraats" of the common man being a regular occurence, so much so that people began to fear that this carry-on is what a potential Sikh state would be like if such people ever gained power. Like you said there's an aspect of the rose-tinted thing when looking back and romanticising such figures and the struggle for freedom.

There wasn't a universally-agreed code of conduct signed by all kharkoos back in the day. The application of certain rules and systems largely depended on the particular kharkoo group's own knowledge, environment, and beliefs. Although the central aim was to keep Sikhi at the forefront of all activities and agitate those in control, the minutiae was largely left open-ended and free to interpret depending on the kharkoo group in question. That's why you've some who were dead against any type of music (i.e. what Muslims would term as 'haraam') whilst there were others who were from less stringent schools of thought who were possibly a bit more relaxed in expressing themselves.

Wait for the DVD. You won't have to read much. :lol2:

Love, respect, and take care of your parents. But nobody in the history of civilization ever made a change or became a trail-blazer by worrying about what their parents would think when embarking on a new, dangerous path. Wider society is full of hypocrites so no need to worry about them. I find that, ultimately, Panjabi parents resist their offspring pursuing unconventional paths, whether it be in film-making, art, i.e. pursuits outside of the standard law, medical, and engineering professions. However it doesn't surprise me when said parents change their tune when a degree of success is gained in those previously unconventional fields, So really all parents crave is success for their children; they just happen to prefer the kind of success which is virutally guaranteed as opposed to the kind which is rather risky to begin with.

Can I phone a friend? :giggle:

:biggrin2:

When I was a kid there was talk of the 5 Pyaare being the Pandavas (from Mahabharata) and Guru Sahib being Vasudev Krishan! A part of me bows in complete reverance to the bachchans of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawale because...well, to praise them wouldn't even be enough. Then there's the other side of me which says that going by that rationale (i.e. 5 Pyaare were previously gods, etc) that anybody notable - apart from Guru Sahibs - in Sikh history who have achieved greatness hasn't been due to their efforts in overcoming obstacles and transcending their humble beginnings, but they were pre-ordained for greatness because of their previous existence as Hindu gods. Does anyone appreciate the danger in this? It sends out the message that only the divine can achieve anything of note in Sikhi --- the average man who wasn't a powerful god or bhagat in a previous life is basically reduced to scrabbling around searching for spiritual scraps in the hope of becoming somebody, but forever doomed to mediocrity or nothingness because he lacks that divine patronage from high above. Surely this philosophy is in complete opposition to the fundamentals of Sikhi? Nevertheless, as I said previosuly, I have no problem in believing in such bachchans if they are true. I'm sure there's certain deficiencies in myself that allows such small doubts to enter my mind.

Exactly. That's what I was alluding to a few weeks ago when talking about Sadda Haq, which is a great achievement in itself, but if we really want to attract the attention of film festivals, etc., then the level of sophistication needs to be ramped up when it comes to our productions. You don't need a huge budget to make something real and full of integrity. Panjabi pot-boilers are a great start (it shows us thinking outside the box and making use of modern media) but I hope there's a gradual progression into these kind of hard-hitting films. Although another part of me wonders whether we'd get any of the audience who flocked to watch Sadda Haq to see a similarly crafted (like Papilo Buddha) Sikh-oriented movie, without a Jazzy-B number to get the feet tapping, lol? :giggle:

Some over there are a bit more sophisticated than a few people over here!

Warning: Brief glimpse of a female being stripped of her clothes

Bartan and jutiya di seva is my definition of panthic duty in this day and age, lol. Keep it simple. Everyone wants their 15 minutes, so let them have it.

Nothing wrong with long earlobes - I have the same! As for the 'ugly shakkal' there's a lot of beautiful people with dark hearts so I wouldn't take that as gospel.

The author of the article is most likely biased against Panjabis, but the Gujrat, compared to Panjab, is leaps and bounds ahead in terms of industrial modernisation and sophistication. It's not surprising to learn Gujrat offers a high quality of immigrant considering what their people have at their disposal. Of course, the neglects to mention the mitigating factors in Panjab which have left the state in the mess it finds itself in, i.e. an ineffectual and corrupt ruling party more concerned with keeping its oar in religious matters than tackling issues which will allow the average Panjabi to progress in life; factors which can be traced back to the unrest caused by the uprisings of the 80s and 90s, and subsequent government interference in day-to-day Panjabi life.

We should stick to the apparently democratic frameworks the rest of the world operates in, and try and get as much done through them. It'll be boring, slow, and not as exciting as "chakking phatte" but if the desire is present on our part I do believe we will get somewhere.

Great post. I have some ideas on how to ensure what happened during the 80s and 90s won't happen again. I'm referring SOLELY to deal with Panjab Police, as I would rather die than see an innocent suffer at the hands of hyped-up Sikhs out to settle scores who probably haven't even had darshan of a Gutka Sahib in their life. But I'd probably be banned (amongst other stuff) so I'll keep my ideas to myself. The main gist of my idea was something that should've been occuring since the late 80s and throughout the 90s, but I doubt the organisational skills - and most importantly, the WILL - has ever been there to undertake a slow, torturous, but ultimately novel manner to deal with the dushts in uniform who killed our youth, raped our mothers and sisters, and sprayed bullets into our scriptures and places of worship. Chalo, maybe in another lifetime when we're genuinely united, and love each other like brothers and sisters without caring for jathebandi and caste.

If the Indian economy implodes overnight, then possibly so. If not, then not a chance!