West London Singh

I don't just wake up and periodicaly think to myself "hmm, I feel like randomly mentioning the death rate during partition today". The fact that I've mentioned it before is more a testamant to yourself and others like you who have ensured that an extremely large proportion of posts and threads on this 'Sikh' forum over the years have related to 'how terribly bad the muslims are'. I'm fairly well read but I don't think, in all my life, I've read anything related to the death rate during partition written by any Pakistani. Every single official report by the British and India concluded that the muslim death rate was far more than double that of us Sikhs. If official documents, reports and even writings of Indians is not 'evidence' enough for you than your standard of evidence is obviously way too high for me.

Homes can and have been rebuilt. Buisnesses can and have been started again. Land and wealth can and has been accumulated again. A human life, on the other hand, once lost is lost forever. Think what type of people we appear to the outsider. When did we become a people that places a higher value on material possessions than human life ? That ^, is utterly ludicrous AJ111. Historically Punjab never was part of India. It was incorporated into India by the British after the Second Anglo-Sikh War and is only part of India now because of the lies India told the Sikhs in 1946/47. A thing that is based on lies, trickery and deceit has no moral value at all and will then naturally collapse anyway. So...no Sikhs are talking about a 'partition' of 'India'. None of us interfere in 'India'. Whether or not they have a partition there is none of our business. What we are about is Punjab. Punjab always was and always will be a different entity to India.

This is true. However, one can't help question the mental capability of one that enjoys being a slave. Enjoys being ridiculed. Enjoys being a second class citizen. Enjoys being under the rule of a power who officialy even denies that he and his faith even exist. Enjoys being the only major religion on god's earth without a nation of their own. Enjoys being massacred. Enjoys the fact that his people are routinely hung to death whilst the killers of Sikhs are given promotion and rewards. Enjoys living under a power that only became his lord and master because of false promises, deceipt and lies told by Nehru at the All India Congress at Calcutta in 1946. Seriously, you have to question the lack of will, hope and backbone of people that enjoy being trampled upon in this way. Of course I have heard of sado masochism and how those kind of perverts take pleasure in humiliation. Not saying you fall under that category but it's certainly odd.

When a jatt Sikh uses his or her surname I get to know so many things: 1) Which village they are from 2) Which district they are likely from and thus which dialect of Punjabi they speak. For example, if they are 'Sidhu' I know they speak a doaba dialect, and if they are a 'Grewal' or 'Brar' I know they speak a malwai dialect etc. 3) If they are a 'Bains' I know they are likely from Hoshiarpur and thus fairly intermixed with sainis and potato farming. 4) From their surnames, because of the districts the surnames are from, I get to know if they are likely one of the old established Sikhs in the UK from the 50's or one of the newer arrivals from the late 70's onwards. There are just so, so many things and so much to know and learn. Absolutely none of it has anything whatsoever to do with 'caste'. The only people who make it a part of caste are those with ulterior 'jatt-bashing' motives. For example, the poster that started this thread. He relies on your ignorance of worldy things to articulate an intention of bashing 'caste' per se. But his actual username here is simply another name that bhatra sikhs in the UK like to call themselves. None of you here should make it so easy for people to run rings around you.

None of this partcularly healthy. Unhealthy because anything that restricts our mind and thinking capabilities rather than expanding it is detrimental to us. The fact of the matter is that the 'other side' have even more examples than us of how their womenfolk suffered.....including mass-suicide to escape mobs of sikhs and hindus. The fact of the matter is that 2 and half times more Punjabi Muslims were murdered in Punjab during partition than Sikhs. Put it this way: As horrendous and brutal as partition was from our point of view we would have to go through the same thing again once more and then half of it yet again before we even reach their numbers of suffering. Remembering suffering is good and a must......but we should remember the suffering of all humankind....even the ones that suffered from our hands.

Brother, both the statements you made above are untrue. I don't know where you've been 'noticing' bhatra surnames but most of the ones I encounter use surnames such as Rathore, Potiwal, Digwa, Bhakar etc. I don't know where you've gone to 'notice' that jatt sikhs don't have Kaur and Singh as their middle names because I've never met one that doesn't in my whole life. More often than not, villages in Punjab are named after the jatt clan that founded the village. Thus, jatt surnames denote which village they are from. Now....the thing is....it's all very well starting threads which allude to being 100% against 'caste'. You can get away with it too when you rely on the general ignorance of people not knowing what your username actually means. Where the ruse falls apart is when knowledgable people such as myself appear and ask how someone that calls himself 'tera' (another name for Bhatra) in his username can start a thread supposedly against 'caste'. As a side note, I do wish to ask a question you may be able to help me with. In my line of work I do regularly have dealings with bhatra sikh females. As a rule, a very large number of them sem to have Hindu first names such as Geeta, Seema and Laxmi etc. In passing I've mentioned it one or two of them and they told me they were from Delhi before they married a british bhatra male and it was common for them to share a sikh and hindu identity as bhatra sikhs believe that Sikhi as sikhi is supposed to be practiced is only for men....NOT women. Can you shed some light ?

I watched the broadcast from Leamington Gurdwara on Sangat TV the other day. It was sensational tv viewing and I'm amazed the Sikh Channell didn't learn any lessons from the way Sangat TV put them to shame during the London riots. Sangat TV seems to have mastered the art of guerilla television....Brave, outspoken and always the first on the scene. As happened during the London riots, the Sikh Channell arrived too late and were locked out of the action. The sangat tv programme from Leamington was a real eye-opener. It left us in no doubt that Leamington's corrupt problems run very deep and the 'alcohol licence' is just the tip of the iceberg. It also served as a wake up all to all of us that nearly all our gurdwara committees, up and down the land, are run by the same sort of men with the same sort of motives. In essence, Leamington should serve as a catalyst for change up and down the land. Its time for the old men to enjoy their retirement and make way. Its time for the young to make themselves eligible to vote in gurdwara elections and force a change.

Facts : Nobody from the BBC has seen Amarjit Kaur's passport.......She wasn't even arrested and certainly didn't bring her passport along to the rendevouz. So who can say for sure she is an 'Indian national' ? Amarjit Kaur stated herself that the way her business works is that she herself calls girls over on 6 month visas. Now any fool knows that the 6 month visas are visitor visas sponsored by extended family members. They are not 'work' visas and they are not 'student' visas. Thus, it is common sense that she has been regularly calling over innocent female members of her own extended family to indulge in this disgusting trade. Any fool also knows how extremely difficult it is to get visitor visas for females from Punjab. At least 100% harder than getting visitor visas for male relatives. You don't get them unless you are extremely well established. If a freshie has regularly managed it for others than its a first. A very rvery rare thing. Now.....her dialect. She's clearly not a doaba speaker. Obviously from either majha or malwa, so I would guess one of the established community from the 1980's onwards. Either way, established. What I find most disturbing about the attitudes here is the way that a Sikh girl falling in love with a muslim male is seen as a worse thing than selling your body for sex, as long as the pimp herself is also a Sikh and its all consensual. That kind of thought is truly disturbing. Every Sikh girl on earth, bar my wife, is my sister. I honour them all and it is no secret that I regularly use my legal knowledge to arrange visas for relatives back home to make genuine visits to the UK for genuine reasons. These eyes of mine would never so much as look at a Sikh sister with bad intentions, which is why I am so disgusted with what is going on.

And the thing is, its not even something we the established UK Sikh community can blame the new arrivals for. This dirty pimp is one of us....Part of the established old Sikh community of the UK. On the outside, just your typical middle aged auntie. Enough of this vilification of the new immigrants then. The most despicable, disgusting, immoral human being has been shown to be one of us.....the established community. No wonder its so hard for many of us to get visitor visas for our female relatives in Punjab.....even or things like weddings. We never imagined it but the Border Agency and visa officials obviously knew already how many are working as prostitutes here. Never did I think that our aunties sponsor visa forms for girls back home simply to sell those girls for sex. Shameless !! I know in my last message I said Amarjit Kaur from east London needs to be publicly shamed but I've changed my mind now. In the programme she inadvertently let it slip that she sponsors visitor visas for girls back home and so if we expose her it will be the girls from back home who have come over on those visas who will suffer terribly. Their lives will be ruined. From the programme, it looked as though Amarjit Kaur owned that rather large shop in east London where the first meeting took place, or at least worked there. At the very least, her and her family need to be driven out. Also......I'm guessing that the same thing is going on at an even larger scale here in west London and the Midlands. Therefore, each of us need to ask around and expose the local established old time middle aged Mrs Kaur's amongst us who are destroying our young sisters from Punjab. Enough is enough. We've had thread after thread about Muslims taking our sisters as girlfriends. Its time to face the greater evil closer to home. Its time to concentrate on our own, indulging in white slavery of our own.

No. They've changed their minds big time. There was a time when Sikh gianis were not scared of swords, bullets and death. These days.....the mere threat of arrest is enough to turn evil men into men worthy of respect. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Didn-t-refuse-to-hold-anniv-prayers-for-Bluestar-general--Panchkula-gurdwara/1062819/

Ah man :wow: I feel so depressed. Just watched the programme on the BBC I player and have never felt so sad about the state of us UK Sikhs. Never thought I'd see the day when our middle aged auntie Mrs Kaur's would be pimps and madams using, abusing and destroying the lives of innocent young Sikh girls. Someone here started a 'name and shame' thread here the other week. Didn't agree with it at the time but anyone here from east London needs to expose that Amarjit Kaur to the world. She and her family need to feel the wrath of the east London wider Asian community, the filthy dog.

Well, knowing that 90% of them are simply looking for cash to get their next fix of heroin......I'd have protected myself and card and pin and address etc and walked away. If I was a drugs counsellor I would counsel him......If I were a pusher I would sell him drugs....If I were a junkie I would do drugs with him. But I am none of those things......So I walk away.

Sorry Questioner, but not only are you VERY VERY VERY gullible but also NOT NOT NOT street-wise at all. I think you should count yourself lucky. Seems to me you were that close to inviting a robber, burglar or much worse into your flat. Things could've turned out a lot worse than losing £20. Let it be a lesson to you.

I'm really sick to death of all the cryptic messages posted on this issue. Would it hurt for some of you to simply tell us what happened and why it happened in one message ? A video of an actual rape taking place ? Really ? 'Muslim' shops attacked whose owners just happen to have Sikh and Hindu sounding names ? Something heroic and noble about terrorising mothers with their children enjoying a family meal together and showering them with glass ? Really ? Seems to me there may have been some justification to Sikh anger at the activities of this restaurant. But deciphering the details from these 2 threads here is like doing the Times crossword. Cryptic clues....cryptic messages. If the details were originally passed to the police in such a manner its no wonder they didn't act.

Too late. Our enemies have beaten us to it. The Gurdwara in question has backtracked to such an extent that they're now telling the Indian media that the General was a really really great man and would be honoured to hold ceremonies in his honour.

Little bit disappointed after watching the audition. I mean don't get me wrong, I think he's done us proud by being a real Sikh and representing us without compromising our values. I'm just a bit diassapointed with his voice. He can sing. He's a decent singer. But I was hoping for a great singer. He's not that. Therefore, the next round is as far as he'll get, and that's a shame.

That's because we have a track record in these issues of our rumours being consistently wrong. Have you forgotten the incident in Luton just a few months ago ? Just like now......mobs of Sikhs went on the attack based on nothing more than rumours. Just like now.....people like you and Hammertime started threads here fermenting trouble between Sikhs and Muslims based on nothing more than rumours. In the end it turned out those rumours were totally wrong and were actually falsely started by the 'sikh' girl herself because she wished to take revenge on her 'muslim' boyfriend. Seeing how we have a history of consistently getting it wrong why should the media, police and wider community believe we have it right this time ? If we have...it'd be the first time in recent years. As a community we need to be aware that there are people like you and Hammertime in our community deliberately spreading rumours, deliberately spreading hate, deliberately spreading mistrust. deliberately poisoning the minds of our community with their fascist views. From now on each and every Gurdwara in the UK needs to be aware of the existence of these EDL supporting Sikhs spreading rumours and therefore no Sikh should act 'in defence of their community' until the rumours have been verified by credible sources.

Terrible news. But....just 2 points : Firstly, That area is certainly not 'Thames Valley' and secondly a little factoid : Did you know the Russian word for railway station is named after that very railway station in London, Vauxhall ? Anyway, ain the 1800's the Tsar sent his envoy to London to study the railways has Russia wanted to build them too. The London Transport people took the Russian envoy to see Vauxhall station in between Waterloo and Brixton. The Russian envoy went back to Russia with plans to build a Russian railway and stuck with the name they found in London : Vaksal. Hence, the Russian word for railway is 'Vaksal'.

Some of you guys are just way too secretive with your postrs. It makes the rest of us wonder : Why the hell are you posting stuff on a public message forum if you want to write in a secret code form and not let the rest of us know what you're talking about. You guys do it all the time. Its getting really annoying. Imagine if I did something similar : Imagine if I started a thread called : 'Hey, guess what ? That geezer from before....he's come back again', and then started a to post a handful of messages along the lines of 'well....he was warned wasn't he'.......and ....'it was bound to happen wasn't it Sikhs?'. You'd all think I've got mental illness for writing nonsensical messages on nonsensical threads and I'd be stupid to do so. And that's exactly what I think of this nonsensical thread. Make it sensible by stopping all this talk in riddles. We're not mind readers OP......We can't step foot into your mind and figure out what the hell you're talking about with this thread. For god's sake What the bloody hell is the story in this thread about ?????

Not so much 'mad'. More white council estate chav.

.......says the man from the community that serves bacon, sausages and egg in their Gurdwara langars. Didn't realise they also ate their tablas and bajas though....so you learn something new everyday.

....and who exactly has ever done that ? That's certainly not what this thread is about. No offence Singh but you, like many others on this thread have read the first sentence of the thread and thought "ummmmm pizza", and then started dreaming about it without reading what we're talking about. Let me try and sum up the issue into one or two simple sentences. Sentence Number 1 : You don't approve of meat or dead animal organs being served in Gurdwara langars do you ? Sentence Number 2 : To make most pizzas (assuming the cheese has the traditional mozzarella topping) an animal has to be killed, ripped open and the stomach lining of that animal used to make the rennet that makes the mozzarella. (unless we can be abolsutely positively sure that it is one of the very few occasions that a non-animal rennet is used). So you see we're back to sentence number 1 again , i.e. 'you don't approve of meat or dead animal organs being served in Gurdwara langars do you' ? Unfortunately you (and most others here) have looked at the thread and invented a sentence number 3 , i.e 'Pizza is lovely isn't it' ?

Well seeing how you'd really 'love' to see these statistics, I feel it my duty to oblige. Here : http://www.circs.org/index.php/Reviews/Rates/Global As you can see, it pretty much confirms what I said.....in that America and Canada have muslim country levels of circumcision compared to European and Latin American countries where circumcision is extremely rare other than for Jews and Muslims. Canada = 44% circumcised USA = 79% circumcised Lithuania = 0.1% circumcised Argentina = 2.4% circumcised Spain = 2% circumcised Holland - 5.9% circumcised France (even with its huge Muslim and Jewish population included) = 14% circumcised Norway = 1.1% circumcised Cuba = 0.2% circumcised Finland = 7.1& circumcised Sweden = 2.2% circumcised Ireland = 0.6% circumcised Belgium = 3% circumcised Portugal = 0.2% circumcised Italy = 1.1% circumcised Germany = 10.9% circumcised UK = 15.8% circumcised

Absolutely Chucky. I think, as Mehtab Singh suggested, the only solution is that from now on Pizza can only be served if at least the mozzarella cheese base topping is made on the Gurdwara premises by the sangat themselves. Apparently, it can be easily done. What we've witnessed in the many comments here is that Sikhs are sometimes extremely unaware of the most simplest of things. Perhaps they are unaware that the 'cheese' on their pizza is usually mozzarella ? I don't know. The topic seems to have veered off into a discussion about various tasty toppings. :stupidme: I know Dominos (UK) has already confirmed to various vegan organisations that their pizzas are made with animal rennet and like you alluded, I seriously doubt our desi pizza shop owners are going out of their way to source organic vegan rennet which is twice as expensive as the animal one. Thus.....we can safely assume that Gurdwaras up and down the country have been serving stomach lining from an animal for years now without anyone being the wiser. That's a scary thought. In the UK however, with vegetarianism being very much mainstream, non-animal rennet is fairly widely used and available Can't say the same thing about USA and Canada though. There, if pizza from a shop is served in a Gurdwara you can be 99% sure that it contains animal rennet. Anyway, like I said before, we can never be truly sure that the pizza brought into the Gurdwara from outside is non-animal even if the pizza shop people say it is because the ingredient will just say 'enzyme'. The only solution is that if pizza is to be served in a Gurdwara it must not only be prepared by the Gurdwara itself but the Gurdwara must make the cheese itself. Someone somewhere needs to set this as a rule.

This is something that's been on my mind for a few years now. Put it to the back of my mind coz I've been very busy and frankly don't have a deep enough understanding to give my usual lecture. Thing is......noticed how pizza is becoming very common in langars, especially during children's programmes. But.........my understanding has always been this : The mozzarella on pizzas is made via the stomach lining of an animal. In other words, an animal has to be killed and his stomach lining removed in order to make the 'vegetarian' pizza. Basically, in lay man's terms, I'm talking about the rennet that has to be used in order to make mozzarella. In America and Canada 99.99% of that rennet comes from an animal whereas for us in the UK over 60% of the rennet is made from animals and 40% is genuine vegetarian rennet. But how do we know the pizza that is being served in gurdwaras is pizza that has the mozzarella made from vegetarian rennet ? The only way we could be sure is if the pizza shop owner persoinally gets his mozzarella sourced from a vegetarian organic source. However, knowing how the majority of pizza in gurdwaras comes from pizza shops owned by local 'sikhs' and how these shops are extremely competitive on pizza price, we all know that none of them are personally sourcing their mozzarella from expensive organic farms. See, the trouble is this : Rather cleverly the animal stomach lining used for mozzarella is described on the packaging as 'enzymes'. Nothing wrong with that because enzymes are exactly what they are. But therein lies the problem........A Gurdwara will look at the long list of ingredients before authorising use in the langar and the word 'enzymes' will not trouble it. And that's where the problem lies. We are a highly educated community of doctors and things like dieticians, but generally these educated fellow members of our sangat don't bother using their education for our benefit.......unless they're being paid to do so. Thus, it normally falls to men like me. No nothing about dietry issues and no nothing about medicine. Know the very basic little about our dietry needs as Sikhs though so am posting this. Cut a long story short then : Has any of the UK Gurdwaras personally checked that the enzyme used in their pizza came from a vegan rennet or was it the normal dead animal rennet ?