UKLondonSikh

Singh559 Paji ... I have to totally disagree with my respected brother N30 ... and all i'd say is that family histories are irrelavant to the picture ... and even a small mention of them in SG ... only serves to temporarily dim the roshni of the Truth of SatNaam that Guru Sahib made clear

I agree with you Paji and so does Professor Darshan Singh and Dhunda Sahib in as far as that relates to undisputed parts which resonate and match with the overall message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Rabh Rakha and bilcul fiqr na karo Paji your posts are never like a broken record. Even when I totally disagree with you, I still respect your input massively :-)

Kaljugi = Of course it suggests an either / or situation in the minds of most 'black and white' thinking Sikhs of which there are many in our faith. UK = I think that's where N30 Paji's "issues can be grey" concept becomes relavant. Paji i believe it can only be described as an either/or in terms of the two Gurdware mentioned if (for example) one of us was going from England to there and there was a limited time before a return flight to Heathrow ... and one had a choice of going to only one of the two Gurdware mentioned in the time left ... on the last day of their trip etc. And in that scenario, I would totally agree with Dhunda Sahib that despite arguably the greater locational beauty + serenity of Sri Hemkunt Sahib, imho Sri Anandpur Sahib holds the more historical resonance in my heart and a lot of other members of the wider non-forum Sangat in terms of its central importance to Sikhi. That being said, if an individual gains more in personal terms from Sri Hemkunt Sahib it's all good. As obviously the natural beauty of the location is simply breathtaking. Like I said "jithe vi Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj da parkash haii ... oh jagga sade li ik pavithar aasthan haii". So definitely no case of visit this one and don't visit the other ... just a matter of which Gurdware resonates more with every Sikh concerned ... and each to their own on that Kaljugi = By paying respects at Sri Hemkunt Sahib you are clearly adhering to the Dusht Daman / "Mein Aaya Duroo Chal Ke" / Sri Dasam Granth part of Sikhi that people like Dhunda refute. UK = That's why others feel Sri Anandpur Sahib is more central to what Sikhi is about. Having said that, if one is an Uttarakhand Sikh ... it makes sense for them to visit a Gurdwara closer to them. But yep why we are making yatra's somewhat akin to Hindu's and Muslims is something that a number of people aren't really comfortable with. I genuinely believe that one's local saanjha Gurdwara (if it's run sincerely by Panj Pyaaray without dodgy committees permitting meat+sharaab parties etc) is just as pavithar as the ithihaasik Gurdware. And rather than apne spending money just to do darshan of Sri Hemkunt Sahib, they can pray at their local Gurdwara in for example Delhi or Ludhiana and use the difference saved constructively - for the uplift of the community. But if people choose as several members of my family have to do darshan at Sri Hemkunt Sahib, then that's all good too. Each to their own. Kaljugi = Respecting SGGS Ji is a given, but the circumstances around which the site of Sri Hemkunt Sahib was discovered, and it's role in the Sikh faith is absolutely central to the debate between the pro and anti-Dasam Granth parties. It's one of the huge contributors to people undertaking the yatra to the site. UK = True Paji. I have utmost respect for the sharda of Granthi Sohan Singh Ji and the level of their sharda and also the yatri's sharda. But I definitely agree with Professor Darshan Singh Ji and Sarbjit Singh Dhunda's viewpoint on the historical authenticity of the whole Dusht Daman concept. I totally 100% believe that we should focus on Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj nu shaheed kithah si and when SGGS Ji became our Guru. I think the rest, particularly the alleged Dusht Daman story is a dangerous distraction to throw Sikhs off from the true revolutionary changes Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj wanted in society and anti-Sikh forces felt that they would trap our Qaum into focussing on all this killing demons, doing pilgrimages (when we have local Gurdware) etc, etc when the 21st century application of Vasakhi 1699 was that we as human beings should never allow genocides worse than our own to take place in the last 20 years like for example Rwanda, DR Congo, South Sudan as three examples in which around 10 million died in the last 20 years. Kaljugi = I don't deny there's a certain premi or two who makes the journey solely to pay their respects to SGGS Ji. UK = Exactly Paji and for local Uttarakhand Sangat its great they have a local Gurdwara near to them. Any Gurdwara where SGGS Ji Maharaj is a blessed location, let's make no bones about that. However, the historical reasoning for the establishment of the Gurdwara is something that one can have personal doubts about whilst still having respect for the Gurdwara itself and without being anti-Sikh. For example, if some members of a committee have an argument about Gurdrware leadership ... as often sadly happens ... and then go off and set up a new Gurdwara ... every Sikh will still have total faith in SGGS Ji Maharaj at the new Gurdwara ... but is entitled to feel that perhaps the Gurdwara was not exactly set up along the common sense reasoning of establishing Maharaj where there is a need for the Sangat. Nevertheless, God works in wonderful ways as they say and I have total respect for the dedication of Granthi Sohan Singh Ji in the 1930's and what Major General Harkirat Singh Ji achieved in the 1960's. But if Sangat are going to do kar seva I really genuinely believe that tackling drugs, foeticide and alcohol in Punjab should take a bit more precedent over clearing snow in Uttarakhand leading to a Gurdwara which nobody uses for 6 months of the year. Kaljugi = The majority of people that do go to Sri Hemkunt Sahib travel there because of the historical and theological signifiance of the site. UK = True Paji. And that's half the problem. Gurdware shouldn't really be tourist destinations for the sake of it. And that's exactly what Dhunda Sahib was saying that the theological importance of Sri Anandpur Sahib is more central to Sikhi than Sri Hemkunt Sahib. Kaljugi = The prakash of SGGS Ji at the site is a given like every other Gurughar in India. UK = Yep Kaljugi = If the presence of SGGS Ji is the only criteria to visit Gurughars then we'd all be happy in visiting the local Gurughar down the road UK = I truly believe that Paji. Our local (saanjhay) Gurdware are every bit as important as the Gurdware in Punjab. This is a crucial difference between Sikhi and Hinduism+Islam. To them certain sites are more precious and you get more investment return for praying at certain locations. Guru Sahib made it quite clear to us that this was not the case for Sikhs. Kaljugi = instead of venturing back home to Panjab and journeying to the many ithaasik Gurughars to be found there. Kaljugi = To suggest there is no issue at all is idealistic and simplistic thinking, and again I think you're playing devil's advocate because if the criteria for upholding peace and calm in a Gurughar is simply due to the presence of SGGS Ji then we wouldn't have the committee fights that occur in the hazoori of SGGS Ji in various countries around the world. UK = No there certainly is an issue Paji (but nothing to fight or kill over). One side believes in the Dusht Daman stories relavance, the other side chooses to focus on the birth of the Khalsa. However, speaking as one of the latter, I respect every bhaiin+bhai's haq to have faith in the Dusht Daman concept and literally believe in 100% of DG. That's fine. But to equate an Amritdhari GurSikh like Dhunda Sahib to Surajmani was very unfair imho. Kaljugi = Your second argument about not refuting Dhundas arguments contains, as usual, a half truth. Nobody is denying that Dasme Paathshah should be respected, but like it or not, when Dhunda gets into 'Dusht Daman territory' then his arguments should be refuted IF a person believes in that version of Sikh theology. UK = Yep Paji by all means. If people believe the Dusht Daman stuff is more important to Sikhi than the birth of the Khalsa then by all means let's debate the issue with pyaar and respect as members of the indivisible Sikh Panth. If people thinking clearing snow in far away Uttarakhand is more important than seva tackling the drugs, alcohol and foeticide challenges we face as a Qaum then fair enough everyone has the right to their own opinion + let's as a Qaum debate these issues with pyaar and satkaar. Kaljugi = Personally speaking I don't know enough about the situation so I couldn't possibly comment. :biggrin2: I sound a bit like you, UKLondonSikh; killing people with kindness. UK = Naah Paji i don't believe in kindness for people like Anders Breivik or James Holmes. Those people ought to be killed on the spot. Just like Guru Sahib dealt with the cheating masands who were stealing from Langar resources that kept the gareeb alive. But in the case of that Surajmani clown - the guy was clearly mentally ill - and I strongly believe 3 lives dedicated to Panth di Seva and Sarbat da Bhala could have achieved so much than living out the rest of their lives in Rajasthani jails.

Yes the Panj Pyaaray were Sikh before becoming Amritdhari. However, there is "jameen aasmaan ka ferq" between the Sehajdhari and Kesdhari Sikhs that comprised 99.99% of the Sangat on the day of Vasakhi 1699 and the Panj Pyaaray who became Amritdhari. Amritdhari GurSikhs ie the Khalsa are those who, as you well know, vow to sacrifice their own life in order to uphold the rights of the downtrodden and oppressed and treat all good human beings with unbounded pyaar. Non-Amritdhari Sikhs do not make such a commitment, though of course we should strive to become Amritdhari when we are spiritually ready to meet the challenge of the true higher standards expected of us by our Guru. Furthermore, whereas Sehajdhari and merely Kesdhari Sikhs may regrettably hold to a so-called background ... with the purest of the pure all their erstwhile backgrounds are erased upon becoming Amritdhari. I wish I could explain the difference in more detail but the simpleton's questions are so pathetic that it doesn't merit giving much more of an explanation in the difference beyond this. As I doubt he will be satisfied by that. And don't trip on one joker asking a nonsense question ... just gain spiritual energy in your own mind from the wonderful occurence that was Vasakhi 1699. It's not about being born into one religion or background that counts. What distinguishes between human beings are our actions alone and the Panj Pyaaray proved that. Don't forget to point out to our joker pal that ... on Vasakhi 1699 after the first two Khalsay had stood up ... Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj (the sixth Khalsa) gave three more calls ... and despite a majority of the Sangat being Punjabi ... Mohkam Chand, a Gujarati calico printer/tailor from DwarkaNagar, Himmat Rai, a water-bearer from Jagannath Puri in Orissa, and Sahib Shah, a barber from Bidar (south India), stood up one after another and advanced to offer their heads for the protection of the meek and oppressed. As the fool will probably accuse Sikhs of only being Punjabi next ... remind him a minority of the wider Punjabi community is Sikh ... most Punjabi's are actually Muslims and there are more Hindi speaking "Punjabi's" in the historic parts of pre-1966 Punjab ... and the ancestry of our bravest of the brave Punj Pyaaray says it all really. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

LF = look at this keerda...he needs to be dealt with in same manner as suraj mani UK = Paji, can you explain to me where Dhunda Sahib is wrong in this video, without referencing other mistakes that Dhunda may have committed. So purely on the content of this clip, please enlighten me as someone in Professor Darshan Singh Ji's overall camp what anti-Sikhi point Dhunda has made in the clip. UK = the way the Surajmani fool was dealt with was a mistake. It gave that Dera a fake "shaheed" and more publicity/donations whilst losing us three Sikhs who could have actively devoted their life in seva to the Panth and Sarbat dha Bhala instead of rotting the rest of their lives out in Indian jails. If it was on the spot as a natural reaction to Beadbi I wouldn't criticise them but if it was pre-planned I genuinely feel they did not weigh up the pro's and con's of their actions. That SurajMani clown was no Massa Ranghar. Kaljugi = He is convincing for someone such as myself who hasn't got all the facts at hand. Good thing I went to Hemkunt Sahib as a kid. It was awesome! :biggrin2: I also visited Anandpur Sahib and all the other ithasik Gurughars, so it isn't an 'either/or' situation as he seems to be suggesting. UK = Paji i don't believe Dhunda Sahib suggests it as an either/or situation. Every Sikh on the planet respects the sanctity of Sri Hemkunt Sahib as well as every Gurdwara where SGGS Ji Maharaj is present. That does not extrapolate that every Sikh has to accept the allegedly historical basis upon which Sri Hemkunt Sahib is based. I wholeheartedly agree with Dhunda Sahib that in terms of historical significance it would be nice if Sri Anandpur Sahib held a greater focus within our Panth as a Gurdwara to visit and learn from if one was faced with a choice between the two Gurdware. But as you correctly say all Sikhs are free to worship at whichever Gurdwara they choose + all Gurdware are equal in that respect. Kaljugi = Anyone have any links to videos or articles which refute his arguments? UK = Paji i don't see how the argument that Dhunda Sahib makes relating to us focussing on Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life alone and the significance of 1699 (as opposed to the Dusht Daman history that some choose to believe) can possibly be refuted. LF = SIKHI starts with baani and ends with baani...i have no impathy for those who slander and doubt everything guru gobind singh ji is related with UK = Dhunda Sahib doesn't do that in the clip as far as I'm aware and nor does Professor Darshan Singh. If someone doubts the historic authorship of certain sections of DG ... it's simply wrong to portray these Amritdhari GurSikhs as rejecting Dashmesh Pitha Maharaj. Those that don't accept 100% of DG feel that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj are more slandered by their false association with certain limited sections of DG which does not resonate with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The people who oppose Professor Darshan Singh's position tellingly elevate DG on de facto par with our only Guru - Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. To me that says a lot. However, respect to Sikhs who have faith in DG wholeheartedly. All I request Paji is that both sides of the opinion are understood to pray for the Panth's best interests at heart rather than simply being written off without any intellectual merit to refute their opinions whatsoever. Rabh Rakha Paji and i hope you see that none of this is personal - i just said what I believe from the heart ... I will always believe in 1 God, 1 Panth and 1 (central + unparalleled) Granth ... as well as the indisputable authentic elements of Gurbani within DG

Singh559 = Beautiful painting of devte coming to pay respects to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji : UK = Paji whilst the painting might be artistically beautiful, this is why certain Sikhs who oppose portraits or photos in Gurdware hold the views we do. The painting indicates Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's divinity at birth ... as opposed to focussing on the truths that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj illuminated for the world through their bibek buddhi. Singh559 = To further advance the discussion, n30 paaji, can you please further explain this line from Sarbloh Granth please? UK = Sorry Paji i know the question wasn't aimed at me ... but the Bedi clan have no relavance to do with world spirituality and truthful living. In fact, way more corrupt people from that clan in percentage terms in direct contrast to Bhai Jaita Ji or Bhai Lalo Ji as two examples of greater virtuousness. In fact even to compare the two lineages from 1699 onwards probably insults Ranghrete. And this is part of why certain Sikhs do not hold faith in certain sections of DG. To do so is not to deny the importance of Amritdhari jeevan or to doubt for one second our Dashmesh Pitha ... but to have reason to believe that anti-Sikh forces wished to dilute the truth of Sikhi by interjecting irrelavant discourses within the spiritual conversation of Sikhi and Gurbani. Respect to those who believe in 100% of DG but equally those that hold the viewpoint that they have doubts about the authenticity of some sections of DG or SG have an equal faith in Dashmesh Pita and I think it's important that point is recognised. If we recognise that in all of our hearts then there is no way we can talk about the Panth splitting as many seek to portray. Both sides of the coin have utmost faith in Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and that's the truth of it (imho :-)

Sherdil = Why do people always have to take things to extremes? We don't have to all intermarry for this caste issue to go away. Why can't we just learn to get along? People stuck to their castes back in the day, but they still fought side-by-side. UK = Paji greater levels of marriages across biraderi boundaries are the best way to eliminate the problem at source. Matrimonial descriptions which reference background are one of the biggest cancers destroying unity of the Sikh Panth from within Sherdil = The people discriminating against other castes don't know Sikhi. UK = Agreed Sherdil = If a Jatt doesn't let a Chamar take prashad from the same place as other people, then that Jatt isn't a Sikh of the guru. UK = Agreed and to be fair, after the Hindu Mahants responsible for such discrimination were kicked out by the original pavithar Akali's in the 1920's most such practises ceased to exist but it had unfairly tainted our reputation which is why we need to be vigilant that not even a single similar case like that should occur in the rest of this century and beyond. Sherdil = I'm from a Jatt background. I'm proud of it. It's part of my blood. It's almost like an ethnic group within itself. That doesn't mean that I think I'm better than people who aren't Jatts. A lot of songs big-up Jatts, but that don't mean other people gotta develop an inferiority complex and start hating on us. Those songs are for us. Go ahead and rep your people if you want, nobody is stopping you. UK = Paji i've read your posts. You're one of the good guys that fair enough you respect the Saka ancestry of the Jatt tribe but the problem is other people take this pride baqwaas to crazy degrees. The litmus test of if someone is a sincere Sikh is whether he would allow his daughter to marry a good Sikh from a gareeb background. If you pass that test and your ancestry is whatever then fair enough ... but a lot of people are not as open minded as yourself I'm afraid. Sherdil = Why stop with South Asians? Maybe every ethnicity around the world should intermarry so that we would end up with one generic race and have world peace? Probably not gonna happen. UK = It's gana happen one day Paji. The question is are we as Sikhs mentally ready for that or are we gana remain stuck with artificial boundaries within our Qaum when people who are non-Sikh have the greater purity of heart to marry across even so-called racial lines with consideration for personal attributes and qualities rather than ancestry being more important for them. Sherdil = Respect each others differences and treat each other as equals. UK = I hear your point Paji but why not let's make the emphasis to demolish internal differences between Sikhs ... in order to ensure that all are indeed treated as equals. The other method hasn't really succeeded after 1849 so why not demolish jaath-paath-biraderi at the foundation upon which it's built - separate matrimonial circles and bakhre bakhre Gurdware. UK = Pretty much I do agree with you Shamshere http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/

Singh559 Paji i think one point we need to consider before getting too offended by a film is to consider the maxim that in today's day and age there is no such thing as "bad publicity". For example, we all know that after 9/11 converts to Islam have increased in the last 10 plus years straight after 9/11. Similarly, let's say a film has a non-Amritdhari hero ... even the resonance a character that becomes popular in the public's perception can help portray a positive image of Sikhs (in a secular way) and can increase the chances that a small minority of folks might actually look into true Sikhi in even more detail to realise the real truth of Sikhi. I'm of the opinion that the more "Sikh portrayed" lead heroes nowadays the better (as opposed to comic characters of the past) ... but yes let's absolutely remain vigilant that SGPC have input whenever a Sikh lead character is portrayed to avoid reinforcing negative stereotypes particularly related to alcohol and reinforcement of caste labels but also all behaviour non-befitting of anyone wearing a Dastar.

ITL = Which other states in India have the centre controlling their rivers and hydrel power? UK = All states are subject to the same federal rules but it's pretty transparent how Hindu states surrounding Punjab get a better slice of the bargain. ITL = How much monetary investment is taking place in Punjab in comparison with other states? UK = If my memory serves me correct, Punjab was pulling in 2% whereas Haryana was pulling in 23% (due to the strategic advantage of proximity to Delhi as well as multi-national organisations preferring to invest in a part of India that they are sure will always remain a part of India and which has been more politically stable than Punjab since 1980). ITL = Are the average Punjabi's being taxed at a higher rates when compared to other states? UK = Federal taxes are the same throughout India but individual states do have the right to tax (for example only) local alcohol sales at a higher rate in one state than another, as far as I understand. The Anandpur Sahib Resolution was bang on correct in outling discrimination from Indira which affected Punjab. Nowadays, many states actually support the main thrust of the Anandpur Sahib resolution which was calling merely for a greater degree of federalism within India. India cooked this into Khalistan to arouse Hindutva support for herself. But times have changed and rather than focussing on Khalistan as a first objective, the waiving of Punjab's state debts incurred between 1980-1997 should be focussed along with implementation of most of the Anandpur Sahib resolution. Shamshere = Or it could be the fact that the youth are getting lazier and people are spending beyond their means. Also Punjab is one of the most alcoholic states not just in India but the world. UK = I totally agree with you that the above factors certainly play a big part and we must address those issues. Shamshere = You seem to blame everything on the government and Hindus. UK = Previous Congress governments especially under Indira+Rajiv had an undeniably big hand behind the problems today. I don't think anybody can much blame the 800million or so innocent poor Hindu's who try to feed themselves on 20 rupees a day. Shamshere = It's just like the blacks who keep on going on about slavery and use it as an excuse to explain their situation. UK = Slavery is the root cause of virtually all the problems within Disapora African origin communities. Your logic as outlined in the above sentence would lead us to believe that India's Dalits are responsible for their own misery and problems today - which we all know not to be true. Shamshere = Sikhs in Punjab need to sort themselves out. Outsiders don't want to invest in Punjab due to the threat of militancy, even though it is small. UK = Totally agreed Shamshere = Yet you are always going on about Khalistan and militancy It seems like you want your cake and you want to eat it. UK = Totally agreed, naaray for Khalistan are hurting us economically and that's an undeniable fact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jonny Paji and Zoltan Paji i think both your points are not totally mutually exclsuive and in places both of you are correct. Jonny Paji - the Sikh work ethic (prior to the drugs+sharaab generation) was famous throughout India and clearly seen outside of Punjab in Sri Ganganagar, western UP and areas of Sikh concentration within Haryana. However, in the last 10 years as FDI into India has picked up markedly, I definitely feel (and the latest 2012 figures would confirm that) Haryana has overtaken Punjab by a certain margin now. Proximity to Delhi, better governance of Haryana as a flagship Congress state under Bhupinder Singh Hooda, less state indebtedness and a focus on not concentrating solely on agriculture are all part of this. There's nothing we can do about Haryana's good fortune whilst Punjab labours under state debts that were run up to pay Police that committed human rights abuses upon Sikhs. All we can do is play our own part in aiding development, education and a strong work ethic in Punjab and the rest will fall into place of its own accord (provided alcohol+drugs+foeticide can also be stopped). As you rightly say, the Haryana Jatts are worse for female infanticide than even Punjab ... so let them take those titles and let's concentrate on getting our own house in order first.

Rebel, there's plenty we can do especially as youth. But we have to do it now as by 2021 it will be too late. Furthermore, at this point just over half of the population demographic being discussed is still Sikh inside Punjab. In Malwa you will find the Sikh percentage to be a lot higher. In Doaba however, Indira + Dera Ballan certainly have inflicted a lot of damage to splinter the Panth. In no particular order, we have to combat any instances of discrimination that are occurring whether that be at the matrimonial level or in verbal or personal interaction. Matrimonial discrimination is as vile and anti-Gurmat as you can get. Pind need to be unified in addition to the Panth having only 1 saanjha Gurdwara per locality. We have to increase interaction between youth of various Gurdware as a pre-cursor to creating unified Gurdware in every locality. We've got to reclaim the "Ravidassia" label back for ourselves as Sikhs. Ie Sikhs are the True Ravidassia's. Dera Ballan are simply an Ad-Dharmi outfit that despise Sikhs and they seek to denigrate Amritdhari Sikhs for political reasons. Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj had a message of total truth, human brotherhood, equality and human justice ... namely the core values of Sikhi. Dera Ballan want people that donate to them to marry within their caste in order that the caste system flourishes. Whereas, true Sikhi as we saw in 1699 and when Sikhs were unstoppable militarily seeks to eradicate the caste system and great Sikhs like Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha and Bhai Puran Singh of Pingalwara again and again advocated to the Sikhi masses that Sikhs must NOT marry within caste as a deliberate selection criteria. Everyone can see plainly that corrupt elements from Dera Ballan leadership want monopoly control of the devotee's offerings from a certain section of the community. The way Sikhs can counter this is having total transparency in how our Gurdware and SGPC are run and ensuring that Sevadars from the same ancestry as Giani Ditt Singh Ji play a commensurate role. SGPC funds should be spent upon ensuring human equality, dignity, education and healthcare for all rather than putting gold on Gurdware in such blatantly anti-Gurmat fashion just because Ranjit Singh did so historically. Let Dera Ballan have corrupt leaders pocket the offerings and in contrast let's have Punj Pyaray at our Gurdwara to contrast and show that at our Gurdware background is irrelavant but imaandaari, sachai, gareeba di seva and Sarbat da Bhalla come first. Also Rebel, i come back to an old point ... in order for us not to get confused about who are real enemies are ... we need to repeatedly highlight that 80% of the Jatt tribe are Muslim+Hindu. Not Sikh. We need to explain to the wider public that four of the Punj Pyaaray were not even from Punjab. We need to explain that Giani Ditt Singh who led the Singh Sabha movement was not a Jatt. And we need not shy away from pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims+Hindu's of all castes despise Mochi's and Jatav's far more than the worst fake Sikhs ever did or could do. In terms of music, try to get your friends on side with you to contact as many artists as you can and explain to them that caste-reinforcing records and alcohol-promoting records are not cool and do unbelievable harm to the youth of the community and help splinter the Panth. Economically it hurts the artists by alienating potential fans. Davinder Bal of Sikh Channel is the man we need to get this message through to politely as well. And last but not least, incidents like Vienna benefitted Dera Ballan. As Sikhs we have to defeat our enemies via logic in the first instance rather than pure aggression in this day and age. The SurajMani Dera head was a fool but we need to realise that three Sikhs can better serve their community and do more for Sarbat da Bhalla through a lifetime of active service to the Panth and wider humanity rather than wasting their lifetimes in the 21st century by rotting the remainder of their lives out in Indian jails. To be clear, i think Bhai Mehtab Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh were as important Soorme of our Panth as you do ... but let's not equate these times now in 2012 to how things were back then. In this day and age Beadbi is going to increase (particularly with the Internet) so we need to adopt a mindset that our Guru's words can never be destroyed no matter what physical or verbal Beadbi may occur at the hands of our enemies. Of course, we can't deliberately do Beadbi of our Guru ourelves by holding meat+sharaab functions at Gurdware though. Rabh Rakha http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

Shamshere = Come on you can't blame this all on Indira Gandhi and Hindus. UK = Nobody was levelling 100% of the blame on Indira. The blame was levelled was fairly and squarely at the fake pro-caste believing so-called Sikhs who along with Indira rejoiced at the central message of Sikhi (namely equality) being blunted+ignored. Shamshere = I've never heard of hindus singing putt brahmin de! The vast majority of Sikhs believe in the caste system just as much as Hindus if not more. UK = Remember that Brahmins were the biggest Hindu caste in 1931 with 4% of the Hindu population but their demographic and political power is eroding year after year as can be seen in Uttar Pradesh and elsewhere. True, about how stupid these Punjabi people are that revel in their caste labels when they don't hold a candle to the level of power Gangetic Brahmins held historically. Punjabi Brahmins nowadays are certainly less casteist than other sections of the Punjabi community. Let's not forget the ancestry of Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji. Shamshere = If you repress a bunch of people then it is only natural that they will move away. Say if you had friends who constantly looked down on you, made fun of you, considered you dirty, wouldn't eat at your house, would you want to be friends with them? UK = I totally agree with the above statement. Shamshere = The reason the Sikh population is decreasing in Doaba is because every Tom, <banned word filter activated> and Harry from villages wants to go abroad and a lot do. My parents are from this area and whenever I speak to the youth there they all say they want to move abroad. UK = That has had an impact, however what you're forgetting is that youth from Majha and Malwa equally want to try their luck abroad so your analysis on that point was a bit over-simplified if I can say so respectfully (but not patronisingly :-) ---------- Sweetshera = Not bad but I do not see connection with bhagat ravidass and ravidassia? UK = Because all Sikhs are de facto Ravidassia and we bow down before Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words daily Sweetshera = they don't support khalistan UK = Neither do 99% of mainstream Sikhs as evidenced after 1997, when I myself stopped advocating Khalistan as the best way to escape the terrorist central state that most clearly existed in 1984 and in susbequent years Sweetshera = and are viciously pro-india. they boast about winning in 1984 because they took the indian side, UK = A very sweeping statement. I think it's best you speak for yourself rather than a whole community that you don't even belong to. By your logic are we to assume that a larger demographic within the Panth are viciously pro-India because of the actions of KS Brar and KPS Gill and how Charan Grewal and Gurinder Dhillon are like? I am aware that the Hindu Jatts of Haryana and Hindu Jatt dominated Dehli police thought that "Sikha nu sabak sikhai'ah gayah" and that Sajjan Kumar the famous Hindu Jatt leader obviously boasted of the genocide against innocent Sikhs as a victory ... but it's very unfair of you to indirectly level such a statement against people of a similar ancestry such as Shaheed Beant Singh who took the evil that Indira was out at the root. Sweetshera = lol that video is one of those fakes UK = The video merely states that Sikhs and Dalits face a common enemy in the casteist central bureaucracy of India. Sweetshera = I know many ravidass/chamar ppl from uni/college alot tell me their family we army and police in india UK = The majority of the Punjabi element within the Indian Army and the Punjab Police are actually Jatt, so that rather renders personal anecdotal conversations a bit meaningless in overall terms. Sweetshera = but i guess it because they were given chances to improve their situation by the indian government UK = Garib Dass of Dera Ballan's bank balance certainly did improve massively thanks to Indira ... but Congress did absolutely nothing meaningful for sections of the Panth that hold 2% of the landholdings in Punjab whilst comprising a third of the total Punjab population. After all most of the Congress MLA's in Punjab were casteist Jatts. Sweetshera = however in my region Doaba they are powerful and educated but they are not so in Malwa. UK = A lot of your tone parrots the Ad-Dharmi political nonsense aimed at Sikhs by Dera Ballan. Because there are more saanjhay Gurdware in Malwa and Sikhi is more prevalent there than in Doaba, I wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking Sikhs from Malwa of a similar background to Giani Ditt Singh are in any way weaker than their Doaba counterparts. If they are more committed to Sikhi that doesn't make them weaker my friend. Sikhi gives strength to all those that truly believe in it. Sweetshera = This is due to the fact they have rejected mainstream Sikhism and taken up Buddhism, Ravidassia, Christianity, Ad-dharm and so on, whilst in Malwa they have little self-esteem they often hid their identity and say they are Ramdassia Sikh UK = Pure nonsense my friend. You probably read that on wiki or some Dera Ballan mouthpiece parroted it to you. In the pind where Mangoo Ram first articulated the Ad-Dharm creed, the Jatts who helped establish him were Hindu Jatts like Dhanpat Rai and Beeru Ram Sangha. From that it can be seen that Sikhi historically failed to penetrate Doaba as extensively as Malwa (in no small part due to the proximity of the Hindu Hill Raja's). So mainstream Sikhi was never discarded in the way you suggest until after 1980 most intensely. Given that Ad-Dharm is itself a casteist philosophy as espoused by Dera Ballan, and so-called lower-castes either sit at the back of Christain churches (or in totally different churches to Christian Brahmins etc) as the Bible is fine with social stratification ... it's highly questionable how moving away from Sikhi (which bitterly opposes the caste system as exemplified in 1699) can improve the situation for poor folks from Doaba. Ramdasia Sikhs were not those who had inferiority issues ... they were those brave Sikhs like Giani Ditt Singh who led the Singh Sabha movement and were responsible for countless people (particularly but not exclusively from oppressed sections of Hindu society) coming to Sikhi Sweetshera = So I would not say its Sikhi that helped them in Doaba, maybe Sikh values but not everyone practices this in Punjab. UK = Sikhi and egalitarian Sikh values are one and the same as can be seen from Vasakhi 1699. It's common knowledge that thanks to the influence of Sikhi discrimination against the Ad-dharmi community was least in East Punjab than compared to its counterparts in Pakistan and Haryana where Muslim Jatts and Hindu Jatts predominate. The main fault for their discrimination in Punjab lies with casteists from the same community as those who killed Sikhs off most brutally in 1947+1984. Sweetshera = It is funny you mention Jatt, most the hatred towards dalits in Punjab seems to stem from them. UK = What perturbs me is that there is not more awareness amongst the Sikh Qaum of the vast majority of Jatts being Muslim+Hindu. Muslim Jatts + Hindu Jatts utterly despise + hate those that follow related occupations to that which Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj was enagaged in, yet we as Sikhs cannot seem to understand that there should be 100% equality amongst our own given how the Muslim Jatts did in Pakistan 1947 and Hindu Jatts did in Haryana+Delhi 1984. One thing is for sure no Muslim Jatt or Hindu Jatt will bow down before Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words. But Muslims+Hindu's will kill people simply for being of a leatherworking ancestry as history and current human rights abuses clearly show us. Sweetshera = I am neither tribe either, infact I would be considered a higher caste than Jatt if I aknowledged the caste system and to be honest I find most of them idiotic especially here in the UK. UK = I agree that anyone who claims to be a Sikh yet holds discriminatory thoughts (while proclaiming their background with pride - which in of itself is totally against Sikhi) is someone that needs to marginalised or rather ostracised from the community. The majority of Sikhs from a rural landowning background oppose the caste system and of that I have no doubt. We just need to get the whole community more vocal and engaged upon ensuring total quality, brotherhood and Unity within the Panth and united Gurdware are a starting point. Sweetshera = they always had backbone even from times of the gurus and panj pyaareh but they lacked organisation, UK = Agreed Sweetshera = all these jatt songs reeks of insecurity UK = Agreed Sweetshera = where as chamar song celebrate their rise against adversity. UK = Naah i'm afraid it's the same casteist philosophy behind it. As the Ad-Dharmi religion states ... only one from the Ad-Dharmi caste can marry another from the Ad-Dharmi caste ... hence in order to uphold that philosophy you get the "Putt Chamaara De" tracks which neatly correspond + match to the Jattwaad baqwaas (often pumped out by the famous Muslim Jatt record label).

Don't believe the hype Rebel. This was all part of Indira's plan to paint everyone that is a member of such Gurdware as being pro-Congress. And it's simply not true. Yes, unfortunately there was a small core of committed Indira + Zail Singh chamchay in leaderships positions at various committees (particularly at so-called Ramgarhia Gurdware formed after 1980) with Vishwakarma practises to boot ... however, the vast majority of Sangat at Gurdware like the one in discussion are totally the same as all other members of the Panth and in general comprise the spread of the political spectrum ... and it would be very inaccurate for us to draw wider conclusions based on the allegiances+background of KS Brar, KPS Gill in 1984 and folks like Charan Grewal + Gurinder Dhillon (the current and previous living Guru's of the Radha Soami's) if you get where I'm coming from

This is a fantastic achievement by Satkaar Campaign and much respect to your Sevadars in this matter and credit to the Committee wale for at least promising to implement this after the pre-booked events are over. It would be nice if those families with bookings already could voluntarily exclude meat+sharaab from their programmes in the interim. However, Paaji one Beadbi which needs stamping out at certain Gurdware is the policy of excluding committee membership on the basis of the so-called biraderi of someone. May I humbly request if Satkaar Campaign can alert the Sangat on this forum of instances where you have been made aware of such exclusionary memberships rules at any GuruGhar where SGGS Ji Maharaj is present. In terms of subsequently tackling that i think the best way forward would be for us to link up with youth whose parents have unknowingly linked them to exlusuionary-committee-wale Gurdware purely as their local Gurdwara. Ie that in the first instance general Satkaar Campaign Sangat do not turn up in force but we let the youth of such Gurdware force a change initially. If organically a substantial number of local youth at such exclusionary-committee-wale Gurdware contact Satkaar Campaign for assistance then of course that would be great in accelerating matters, as this Beadbi of jaath-paath-biraderi as every bit as insidious as the meat+sharaab wale gangsters. Rabh Rakha thay thussi Chardi Kalla vich roh http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

Wow too much to comment on in this thread! But N30 Paji for anyone who cares to understand your posts, i think it’s crystal clear you do not advocate any worship of Krishna whatsoever – merely that we need to truly understood the meaning of the word Avtaar and how the so-called Avtaars relate to Gurbani in a metaphorical sense. The problem with certain words is that there are multiple meanings for them! One thing I think needs emphasising to anybody perhaps in doubt is that never in no way can Krishna, Ram Chander, the Hindu-defined Shiv (in human form), Deva’s or Devti’s be worshipped and that the Gurbani description of Raam, Shiva etc merely uses the aforementioned terms to describe the one formless God. Only5 Paji i totally agree with you that people serious need to study Sikhi in a bit more depth if they are misinterpreting "de Shiva bar mohe" to worship Lingams etc! However, I would extend the point that this is where those that have issues have certain sections of DG are coming from. And just because they have issues with classic Hindu philosophy does not mean they reject pavithar Amritdhari GurSikhi jeevan one little bit ... it simply means they definitely don’t want the Avtar-heavy Deva-Devti heavy Nihang (or Nang) version of it. Jsinghnz i totally agree with you in rejection of these avatars and I genuinely feel that Krishna the human being (as opposed to the formless definition) has zero connection to Sikhi except by way of illustrating a moral. However I feel you have perhaps missed the very subtle nuanced points N30 Paji was making. Put it this way, if me, you and N30 Paji were talking to a Tamil Hindu, I can just bet that N30 would be able to explain Sikhi in terms the chap could understand better than me or you ... all the while whilst still being resolutely clear cut that Krishna is not to be worshipped in any way. As for anybody being in Sachkhand i don’t believe any of us know what is fact, but we can make our own educated guesses (and again I hardly see these as relavant to Sikhi per se). Osingh Paji i totally disagree with the way you described things. N30 Paji i’m glad you picked up on osingh’s point as it could very much be interpreted by people (especially non-Sikhs who I am no better than) in the wrong way. Anyone who believes in Sikhi automatically thinks that Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s marg is the clearest route for coming closer to ParmAathma but if we start de facto saying that only one particular route is suitable for taking us from London to Paris then I think that’s wrong. But no harm in more people knowing about the shortest route ... just that we cannot brazenly claim that all other routes are invalid. Sherdil Paji – totally agree with you (not least where you clarify who The Ultimate Teacher is) Kaljugi Paji – i thought ALL Sikhs understood the mention of Hindu Avatars to be purely metaphorical with not even the slightest hint of those tall tales being taken literally!!! Particularly in light of the multiple genocides this planet has seen in the last 100 years ... there wasn't much divine intervention then ... so we can hardly take 10-headed Ravans literally. Bundha Paji – Personally, I totally can’t stand the Avtaarwaad concept, which I strongly believe Sikhi rejects but you make a great point that given the reverence Hindu’s hold for these Avatars we need to be careful in how we address them so as not to cause offence to potential future Sikhs. I would still emphasise that Ram Chander the historical human being has no connection to “Raam” as used in Gurbani as 1 word to describe the 1 formless God.

Bump ... and does anybody else think this should be pinned?

UK = HSM Paji, I'm glad that you share the viewpoint that Swindon was in fact a big setback for us. However, one thing I think we must respect is that the naujawaan involved in Swindon did so truthfully in good faith that Rehit Maryada was not being upheld. In other words "oh'na de man vich oh say-hee sig-gay". And if we as Sikhs can consistently see that within counterpoints which disagree with our own views, then we will be a lot closer to arriving at a common sense consensus of opinion for the long term benefit of the Panth. Satkaar Campaign do a great job overall, as do Sikh Youth Project ... but let's put our point to them as our Sikh brothers and sisters with pyaar rather than labelling them as extremists or racists or pakhandi's like Grewal+Dhillon of the Radha Saomi's. UK = Yep I think N30 Paji has really come up with some serious thoughts that could potentially strike the type of balance you talk about Paji. N30 Paji's idea upholds the sanctity of the Anand Karaj for Amritdhari GurSikhs whilst ensuring that sehajdhari couples and examples like the Swindon couple are also still bought closer to the truth of Sikhi. I think the whole idea of pre-marriage guidance from the local Gurdwara to increase knowledge of Sikhi and the responsiblity of truthful and compassionate conduct it places on husband and wife could be the way to turn a negative PR situation like Swindon into a long term positive for the Panth.

UK = Paji, with respect, imho this figure is not correct. If the initial census figures provided by the Britsh are discounted and not extrapolated from the 19th century we are likely to see that ... 50% of sehajdhari Sikhs have Jatt ancestry and 50% have non-Jatt backgrounds. Of course, 100% of Amritdhari Sikhs reject the whole caste system and are "casteless". Obviously in the Diaspora, the percentages don't break down 50/50 but in India, amongst non-Amritdhari's the 2011 Indian caste census will most likely confirm the 50/50 breakdown. UK = Paji if people embrace Sikhi but still believe in caste superiority there is no point in those folks being Sikh. They might as well return to Hinduism + Islam where they are free to marry within their own caste and keep the bloodline pure by marrying their own cousins etc. Historically there have been millions of Amritdhari GurSikhs who ancestry wise may have been from a Jatt tribal background before they took Amrit but whose actions and lives as Khalsay gave collective pride to all Sikhs. The same goes for the Amritdhari GurSikhs of other backgrounds. Hence, Sikhi will always have a presence throughout the world because to be Sikh is to automatically de-link oneself from any notion of pride in one's background. UK = Naah Bally what it is, I'm sure Rebel didn't mean to disparage the Ravidassia Gurdwara itself but perhaps only some of the cultural practices he may be unfamiliar with. I'm sure if you and him were to meet up you'd see someone who is passionately against caste discrimination and I know Rebel is proud of the massive contribution that those with ancestry similar to Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj have contributed to Sikhi whether it be the dedication of Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha to the time of Banda Singh Bahadur when Sikhs of the same ancestry such as yourself played a crucial role in pushing the Mughals back. In short, all we need to do is return to the mindset of 1699 rather than the present and stop the mentality in Doaba where fools are putting "Putt Jattan De" and "Putt Chamara De" on their cars as if by doing that they are somehow contributing to Sarbat da Bhala

Shamshere, don't believe the lies peddled by Muslim historians against our Guru's. Mata Gujri Ji (Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's spouse and Mother of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and Grandmother of the Sahibzadeh) was from a Gujjar qaum background, so this whole falsehood about the Guru's marrying into their own caste is an absolute lie. The Guru's never had any caste full stop ... just as every Amritdhari GurSikh formally renounces their erstwhile background upon Amrit. The Muslims realised that the Sikhs as a United force were unstoppable. Hence, they employed every trick in the book to segregate people of different ancestries despite what had occurred in 1699. For example, many youth nowadays are not aware that around 90% of the Khalsa Warriors (who automatically erased their caste upon Amrit) in the Ramgarhia Misl were in fact descended from sections of the community not engaged in the same noble profession as Bhai Lalo Ji ... essentially that erstwhile Jatts, Khatri's, Tanners, Gujjars, Ranghrete, Brahmins, Julaha's, Nai's etc, etc from a diverse range of backgrounds made up the bulk of the Ramgarhia Misl forces. What was unique about the Khalsa Sikhs was how they rejected the idiotic concept that the profession or tribe of a person's ancestors had any bearing upon a Khalsa's fitness for leadership. It would be nice if we the youth could at least strive to emulate that spirit by destroying the concept of jaath-paath completely ... with 1 United Gurdwara per locality for 1 Panth under 1 God

@ Rebel ... great to know that the Sikh Sangat is more united in Luton than elsewhere in the country Rebel bro ... but Rebel we're 100% counting on brothers like you to ensure that our Ravidassia brothers join a single United Luton Gurdwara Sangat asap this decade

Don't believe the hype bruv. If you study the Mirpuri background you will find Jatts are the biggest demographic element amongst Mirpuri's Pakistani (Punjabi) Muslims. This is in spite of the fact that Mirpur tehsil falls within Kashmir state (due to Dogra rule after Ranjit Singh). For example, if you're standing outside a Ramgarhia Gurdwara in Luton, or a Bhatra Gurdwara in Southampton it would be inaccurate to therefore perceive that most UK Sikhs self-describe themselves as historically linked to the Ramgarhia Misl or the Bhat Sangat. But I'm willing to accept that the Mirpuri's you may have run into in Luton may often have been from a Gujjar background. With respect to the partition statistics. Let's look at which Qaum suffered the most. I don't accept your figures but let's say 500,000 Muslims died out of a total Muslim population in India of 100million at the time ... that equals 0.5% deaths within that Qaum. The lowest figures for Sikhs are that at the very least 5% of our Qaum was killed in 1947. Statistically, we therefore suffered AT LEAST 10 times greater casualties on a per capita basis.

Jaimal Singh indeed was an Amritdhari who wanted reform within Sikhi as a response to the corruption that had increasingly crept in after 1849. Under Jaimal Singh the title deeds to the land at Beas were rightfully held in the name of SGGS Ji Maharaj. Similarly, Dayal Singh of the Nirankari's merely opposed idolatory practises that had crept up within Sikhs after 1849. We also see that Baba Ram Singh (that the Namdhari's claim as their own) was in fact a wholly committed Amritdhari who never claimed to be a living Guru. The "Living Guru" concept only arose when certain folks in the 20th century started realising it was a license to print money. On top of that Indira started funding them big time by pushing the line that sehajdhari's are not Sikh. By our own leadership de facto accepting that definition that sehajdhari Sikhs are effectively Hindu's (a premise which is clearly false) the result was that hundreds of thousands sehajdhari Sikhs ended up in the clutches of these fake Dera's.