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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH 45 minute onward. Provides an interesting perspective. Not a fan of how the debate played out (not so civil), but the needed information is there.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Truly inspirational. The kamai of this Gursikh Bibi who has written a saroop of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at 37 while maintaining a householder's life is unimaginable.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH No...Gurbani/Simran is something that one should be engaged in 24/7 ideally.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH So...no interest in discovering if this truly is THE FIRST Saroop of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and preserving it???

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Right at the beginning of the Katha.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,31098 Anyone in India or wherever with any information on this? If this is true, this is THE BIGGEST find and MUST be preserved, digitized and preserved with the utmost of preserverence and will put to end some controversies in the Panth (potentially Raagmalaa and maybe Mool Mantar length??? based on the picture posted) before it somehow becomes lost. I cannot stress how important this is to the Panth as a whole.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Proactive Ji: "The aim is to have 4 kids not to have 4 kids in 4 years. If you leave a few years between each kid then by the time one has started nursery, the other one is still a baby and so on. Complying with the edict won't be possible for those westernised Sikhs who have moved out of the parents home as soon as they have got married. It takes the whole family. the parents. the grandparents, the uncles and aunts to raise kids. " So...by calculating this out and assuming that each child takes 5 years to start school, it would take 20 years to output 4 children (not everyone can afford pre-school/pre-K etc.). 20 years??!! What age should we start - 15, so the child will be born when 35? Agreed that western/city dwelling Sikhs cannot comply with this edict. That is the exact point - what good is it to make an edict that Gursikhs cannot comply with? It dilutes the influence of the Jathedar of Akaal Takht Sahib to pass edicts that cannot be acted upon. The intent may be noble, but it is not actionable for many Sikhs. Absolutely appreciate your comment about how it takes much more than just parents to raise children. chatanga Sahib: "Ok, so how are you different from any other parents? And how are you different from the previous generations before you?" That is exactly the point: We are not any different from the current generation of city dwelling Sikhs. All the city dwelling Sikhs with little or no support structure (and there are a LOT of them) are experiencing similar difficulties. My own mother, who is of the previous generation, also says that we drove her near to the point of insanity while trying to take care of us because she did not have support of family/community to raise children either. How we are different from the previous generation is that the majority of Sikhs were extended families living together/close proximity and/or small village structure where there was a lot of help and sharing of children. It is common expression that it takes an entire village to raise a child. The current family/community structure is vastly different in previous generations (grandparents and before) than the current one (for city dwelling ones anyways). Back to the point: If we, as a typical Sikh family, are struggling with 2, how are other typical non "Super" status Sikhs supposed to cope with a MINIMUM of 4? Consequently, those of you who are in support of this edict: How many children do you have? I know that much of the demographics in Sikhsangat is younger youth who are most likely unmarried, so the reality of the situation is much different than the idealistic each Gursikh couple is making 10 children and they are all bana wearing, Gatka/Shartar Vidiya practicing Akhand Paathis who attend every single Gurmat program of every Jathebandi. Reality is much more difficult and different.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Oh I don't know... A) 1 AM waking/feeding/diapering child #2. B) 3-4 AM milk demands of child #1. C) Managing kids for at least 3-4 hours of the day while meals are prepared. D) Managing kids while parents actually get sleep, not night naps for a few hours. It has been years since either of us managed 8 hours of sleep at night or anything close. E) As needed assistance with illness - that affects the entire family. F) Babysitting while parents actually get 2-3 hours per week to do luxury things like grocery shopping, car repairs and ironing clothes. We are not husband and wife to each other, we are mother and father to our kids. ​G) Doing above and maintaining an Amritvela, doing Simran, Paath, seva, attending Gurudwara divans - you know, BEING a Gursikh. H) Many MANY more things... Yes, I am sure I am a weak person who is not the Superdad and my wife is not Supermom, but we are two average parents trying to raise our kids. Funny how other Gursikhs in the area are facing the same challenges we are as parents, so we know we aren't the only ones. A few who have one have already commented that when they see us, they are scared away from having two - quite the handful they are. I have respect for the Akaal Takht Sahib and the Jathedar of the Akaal Takht Sahib - but making these proclamations have implications to those who take them seriously. The fact that Jathedar Sahib is sending out advisories that each family produce 4 kids is not realistic. Not everyone lives in a pind from the 1940s - people live in cities and there is not a support structure to maintain 4 kids for all people. Yeah, my grandmother had 11 kids - I also know she had a heck of a lot more family around her to assist with raising them. Not everyone lives with or has elders that help with kids. Money is a thing - anyone actually seen what it takes to fund a child through higher education? Physical capacity is a thing - not every person is Supermom-Superdad and has the capability of having 4 or more kids. The Sandesh puts me in a position to either not comply with it or to comply and basically ruin my life. This is not a situation that any person should be placed in. Does anyone realize the sheer energy and willpower to raise a child by parents? If any of you don't have children, sorry, you don't have a realistic understanding of what it takes. Ask those who do - half of the parents who actually make an effort to raise their kids right are out of their minds to make sure that their kids turn out right. It is absolutely correct to assert that the focus should be on the current youth that is suffering without any guidance. To make this a mandate for every Gursikh in the Panth is not in the realm of rational thought. I hope that this Sandesh gets publicized so the details can be reviewed to see if this is in the form of a plea or a mandate - if it is a mandate, it will make a mockery of the Jathedar position of the Akaal Takht Sahib because hardly any Sikh will give it any serious thought or consideration. Sorry...edited because the font and background was kinda annoying.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH chatanga, when you coming over to help then?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Will get right on it once there are a couple of SGPC sevadaars dispatched to my house to help the wife and I to manage and help raise them...

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH So, harsharan0000 Sahib Ji, where does one get this Naam? Which Guru/which means exists in this world to obtain this Naam? Please detail for the Sangat's benefit. Thanks.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Revenge...or justice?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Errr...samadhi leaves the body self sustaining enough so it does not require freezing. Dudes be trippin'.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Deeper meaning would imply that there would be a Rehatnama or some historical documentation to support this behavior as a valid practice. If it exists, please post it.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH No.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH I say this as a father of two, a husband who was in the delivery room with my wife for both of our children in the U.S and both my wife and I are Amritdhari. This may be VERY different in other countries. I know that UK and Canada have much more familiarity with Sikhs and the articles of faith. Typically, the hospital (if that is what your country supports for childbirth - I know some have midwives and at home births - quite different) will require that you change into a hospital gown. You will be essentially exposed waist down (more on Kashera below). During labor and imminent childbirth, you'll probably be too busy with childbirth (and its related "discomfort" aka. pain) to care who sees what and want that the child be delivered. Be aware that there is a very uncomfortable procedure related to checking for cervical dilation - you may want to speak to your OB/GYN as to what that involves to be aware of what it involves. Lastly, nobody cares what you look like and the medical professionals do this every day multiple times a day. Their concern is to deliver your child, not to perve on you. At the point you are in labor, you probably won't care. Best bani - all bani is good, though I am not sure you want to be in Bar Ras and listening to/reciting Chandi Di Vaar or Shastar Naam Malaa (I say this for your husband's sake, as you may get urges to Jhatka him during labor. Please don't - he has his uses). My wife chose soothing, slow paced Simran on repeat. Otherwise, whatever can keep you calm, focused and remembering Akaal Purakh. Very important is to start reading Gurbani/doing Simran before the child is born. Some scientific evidence points to children being able to learn things faster that they heard in the womb. Your child would have a head start on Sikhi, so the more the better before birth and whatever you can do extra after helps (and you will be busy). My wife wore a smaller (though fully functional, about 4 inches long) Kirpan in her Dastaar with our second child. She ran into a situation where the security with our first child. Basically, the night nurse complained about the Kirpan (was about 9 inches or so) and security told my wife she could not keep it on. She said that its an article of faith, she is not taking it off and if they push it, she will leave the hospital (that introduces the potential for a lawsuit if something goes wrong). The guard checked with his supervisor, who said to leave my wife alone. The smaller Kirpan was also chosen to make it more manageable during labor. I believe this should not be a problem in countries like UK or Canada, but may still be of concern in other countries less familiar with Sikhs. Kashera - keep it on one leg and you can wrap it with an cravat/ ACE bandage around your ankle to ensure it does not slip off. That way it stays on your body and allows for delivery. The personnel are more concerned with free access to deliver the child and a Kashera on an ankle is out of their way enough so that it is not an issue. You also want to have a very frank discussion with your OB/GYN about hair being sacred to Sikhs and to not cut any hair on your body for delivery. The OB/GYN will give you feedback about what can and cannot be done. There should NOT be any reason to cut any hair on your body for completely natural childbirth (aka. no C section or other surgical interventions). In fact, you should be able to discuss with your OB/GYN any of the above and they should be able to accommodate you. Hope this helps.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Having been to this Gurudwara, I think the Sangat would beat me to a bloody pulp if I wore shoes beyond the jorrha-ghar that is right by the entrance. I can see that certainly inflaming any Sikh who attends that Gurudwara. The rest - no comment.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH "It makes me feel better about myself". Why? What scale of acceptibility or model of beauty are you applying to yourself that is not being met by your God given beauty? Are you making yourself feel better, or are you making yourself look better for others, which will make you feel better about yourself? Would said bra have the potential for giving you unwanted attention in this Kaljugi world? I don't think that a push up bra has been banned by the Panthic Maryada or Hukamnama, but you may want to take a deeper insight into who or what you are really doing this for and what is its root cause. I am writing this as this is presented on a Sikh forum. I am taking this question being asked from a SIKHI perspective and finding out what this will do for your SIKHI and how you view yourself as a SIKH. Apologies if the intent was not to look at this from the above perspective.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH You could have the first larh go below the earlobe - the ear then becomes almost a hook beyond which the Dastaar does not rise. I do that.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH It does not appear that anything you described is a Bujjar Kuhrehit from what different Maryadas - available online are Panthic and Taksaali Maryada from what I can recall, and Taksaali should by similar to Nihung and Hazoori Maryada. - say. If you are truly feeling guilty, probably nothing you can do yourself will rid you of that guilt. Even a Gursikh here saying soemthing is not going to be a 100% guarantee that it will rid you of that guilt. If it is really bothering you, go to the Punj Pyare at an Amrit Sanchar, tell them and they will guide you. They are your Guru - your father/mother - I would think they would offer appropriate advice like a loving parent and not be out to beat you to death for something many Sikhs face and fight daily.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH First, if you are Amritdhari, recall what Rehat was given to you. Then ask yourself is this a Bujjar Kuhrehit? If not, can you get over it with just Ardaas/paath/Keertan? If not and you still feel guilty, you may want to go to the Punj Pyare anyways to get closure.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH So datin is one way. Its ok as long... Ummm...no. One thing leads to another and suddenly you are back on this forum saying, "Help! I got a girl pregnant/I am pregnant".

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Not everyone on this website is from the UK...

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Couple of options. A) Full disposable gown that would cover everything is allowed in sterile areas. B) Oversized Kara which can be moved up above the elbow and kept in place with a cravat/"ACE bandage" to be worn when in the sterile areas. Mostly, it involves checking with the lead person of the hospital area (if you can find a Sikh working in the facility in that area - especially surgeon - they should be able to advise as well as put in a word to the hospital area as to your wearing a Kara) as to what can be accommodated. Most facilities will try to balance your religious needs with the hygeine needs. I was given the option to gown up in the hospital I used to work in - covered all of my my body and I have worked in a sterile compounding area making IV medications which required scrubbing up. Some may just tell you to scrub the Kara along with your handwashing.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Sanchian (at least from what I know) are usually pothis of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Your protocol seems appropriate and respectful to Gurbani.