BhForce

LOL, "weapons"? Did anybody fire on the police in Ludiana? What a joke. True, they hate the parchar S. Dhadrianwale is doing. Good for him for waking up Bombay (and hopefully Delhi) as well. S. Bhindrawale did the same as well. Good for focusing on Punjab and India at this moment. Plenty of other preachers to take junkets to Canada and US.

3rd Guru Amar Das Ji. If it gives you anand, I would say, go ahead and recite it. That's why it's called Anand.

You have Sarbloh Granth in 2 volumes? Is the teeka printed by Budha Dal Printing Press, or different?

mp3 not found.

OK, I guess we're going to see the first application of the new rules here: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php/topic/49160-beware-of-these-people/

Here are a bunch of video links that people posted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUjzKDSQWU0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcaCZuMHNNM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCXJHhp4TvM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pphzwUbwDcM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzMHRXKAoSw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQXbNlpFWRg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9pVPuc4WQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb2BKF7P1rg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8J3V6fchx8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpNUAmC-vHE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2wMVcWbtBE

Try Savevid.com savevid has a lot of ads. Try http://www.getvideomp3.com/

That vixy site isn't working right now.

OK, your second post seems a lot more reasonable. I don't understand your question veerji. Well, the fact is there is one particular Gursikh (who shall remain nameless) who has done the highest seva in the Panth who is now directly or indirectly questioning Sri Dasam Granth. There are many Sikh jathebandis who are doing so as well. Will any posts about him be considered a direct or indirect insult on a Gursikh who has done seva in the past? Although I don't agree with simply calling him names like other members like to do, it seems that any criticism can be interpreted as at least an indirect insult. Also, there was a post by me indirectly calling the fellow from Delhi who called the Khalsa panth a Brahim creation, a <banned word filter activated>. (I asked if he had any proof about his own authenticity.) You should be the administrator!!! :D How about I be a union leader, and you can be management I'm looking at things from the perspective of an ordinary member. I'm sure that from the administrator's seat, having to deal with so much garbage, you get frazzled and lash out. The lesson from history is that arbitrary power can lead to temptations such as implementing one's own particular agenda. Even if it doesn't happen, it's a bad precedent. Just as the sangat follows the Panj Piyare, but the Panj Piyare are still accountable to the sangat, and that keeps them on the right path, so too, being accountable to the sikhsangat.com membership will keep administrators proper. Also, one rule that seems to be missing is keeping to the topic of the thread! It's amazing how we can't be focussed enough to just stick to one topic in a given thread. If someone wants to talk about an related yet separate matter, create a new thread, and post the link to the new thread in the old thread.

Will any any direct or indirect insult be allowed of any Sikh jathebandi which directly or indirectly questions the status or authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji? Although I don't want hateful posts on the forum, either, doesn't it seem like a like heavy-handed to say this? The problem with saying this is that Sikh Sangat claims to be the "Voice of Sikh Youth". If it was just a personal blog it would OK to say the above, but as "The Voice of Sikh Youth", and with a name like Sikh Sangat, I think it behooves the administrators not to treat the forum like a personal fief. Again, I don't want hateful posts on the forum, but abrupt bans and deletions without any sort of due process other than what an adminstrator felt like on a certain day doesn't seem to be Sikh way. If even Guru Gobind Singh Ji felt compelled to be accountable to sangat, can't Sikh Sangat be accountable to the Sikh sangat? I believe the reasons for possible dismissal of a member should be posted in a thread, the member should be able to speak in his defense, and other members should be allowed to speak in favour or against dismissal. It's said that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that one reading of the first post above would mean that not only someone who posted something hateful would be dismissed, but also anyone who merely questioned an administrator's actions would be in trouble as well. Instead of constanly banning people or posts, why not turn on the post-rating feature (the plus/minus buttons) so people can rate good posts, and downgrade bad ones?

It's so funny how, in the article, it says the brave Punjab Police only swung into action after article in the Tribune alerted them to the Youtube videos. Before that, they were totally clueless. I wonder what they'll try to say to get the videos pulled. And I wonder how Google, which owns Youtube, will respond.

Seeq, it would be great if you could take the time to think of a more useful title to your post than your username.

The difference between the Tarmala group and AKJ is that 1) on the one hand the AKJ elders (according to the above posts) discourage bodily movement as a form of bhagti. 2) Whereas, on the other hand, it's actively encouraged by Bhai Seva Singh Tarmala, and also it's taken as a sign of grace in that group. Funny thing about signs. The Calvinists believed that God would give riches to those that he favoured. Then people turned it around and started trying to become rich, so they could claim to be favourites of God. Humkire has analysed it well in his post above. No one is attacking the AKJ as such. Some youth appear to have fallen into moving their bodies as a crutch, and I hope we can very kindly ask them to not do so as it turns Satguru's darbar into a disco.

They are scared of an open media. They are used to having the ability to totally shut down Punjab media, and do whatever they like without the world knowing. How to Download Youtube Videos

OK, so here we have it. T_Singh has stated AKJ does not promote bodily movements as a way of japping naam. Hath jor key benti to everyone (in AKJ, Tarmala, Taksal, Parmeshar Duar or whereever) do the inner bhagti with your soul, and not your body. The outer bhagti that is done with the body is seva (serving langar, washing dishes, dusting shoes, chaur sahib, deg, etc.). I can't think of a single puratan mahapurkh whose body started flailing when in the higher spiritual states. Rather their bodies would become totally still in sunn samadh avastha where they wouldn't be aware of even a fly coming to sit on their face. Look, you're wasting much of your energy in moving the body. If you just sit still, the energy can be focused on Naam, thereby being all the more powerful. OK, that's a good interpretation, too. In any case, I think you would agree that inner bhagti is being stressed in the tuk.

1. humkire's post above analysed the whole situation in minute detail very well. 2. As for akj, again, benti please don't go the Tarmala way. I think there was a post saying that moving your head from side to side is not something that used to be done in that jatha (even if it's much less than what Tarmala is doing). So if you're associated with akj, please don't start doing something which is a fad. The best way to do bhagti is to close off the outer senses, and go inward: ਨਉ ਦਰ ਠਾਕੇ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ Those who close off the nine gates, and restrain the wandering mind, ਦਸਵੈ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਪਾਏ ॥ come to dwell in the Home of the Tenth Gate. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=124&L=9&id=5066 Don't move your body. The body has nothing to do with inner bhagti. Inner bhagti is done with the surti: ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=943&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=1&p=0&k=1 The Word is the Guru, and the surti (of the soul) is a disciple of the sound (of the word). In practical terms, it means that when the Word is spoken, listen to the sound of the Word with your surti; your surti will merge into the Word. Note how there's nothing about the body. The body is not meant to do bhagti. The surti is meant to do bhagti. Moving your head in beat with the kirtan is not as fulfulling as moving your soul. Does anybody with the Akj want to come on and either defend or speak against bodily movement as a means of inner bhagti? 3. As humkire has analysed the bodily movements phenomenon as a psychological phenomenon, we have to keep in mind that attacks and negative approaches will not work to dissuade people of such notions. Only with humility can you break through to someone.

The authenticity of the 24 Avtar is not up for question. But any particular interpretation of it can indeed be questioned. Hopefully we won't start fighting based on any particular dogmatic interpretation. God is supreme, and so can also alter the future. (Remember how the Maee who wanted a son, and it wasn't written for her reminded Guru Harbogind Ji of that fact, and she got 7 sons.) It's possible that this is one possible future, and we can avert it if we act in time. It's also possible that we can't. God knows. As for the bit about caste, Guru Granth Sahib ji also has a tuk of the same sort: ਛਿਵੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਜਾਤਿ ॥ In lust the mortal does not ask about caste. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=137&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0 Guru Sahib is not saying that people should ask about caste. Rather, one the one hand they make a show of being high caste, yet in lust, they'll take any woman anytime, no matter the caste.

Hath jor ke benti to all involved in the Tarmala group: Plese use whatever personal influence you may have to veer this group towards normal Sikhi, and drop the weird stuff. Thinking that Bhai Seva Singh Tarmala is the only one who has ever talked about naam simran is basically haumai. Thinking that the way to japp naam is violently is also a mistake. Just come back to normal Sikhi, and the whole Sikh panth will be OK with you.

Thanks for posting this. The video is of Seva Singh Tarmala, probably from India. Apparently, the Swingdon group is affiliated with him. A couple of comments: 1) The user who posted this on Youtube (niarakh) is anti-Tarmala. Yet, at the same time his other posts are videos in favour of Gurbachan Singh Thailandwala of Gurmat Gian Missionary College of Ludhiana. Thailandwala has been identified as a opponent of Sikh history as we know it. I don't know if the reason the missionary is against Tarmala is because they recite Naam in a violent manner, or just because they japp naam at all. 2) I can't quite say that I agree with the use of violent bodily movements to bring on a spiritual state. I mean, I guess I could see people going mast after hours of naam simran, and losing their consciousness of what their body is doing, but the video clearly showings people flailing about just a few seconds after starting the recitation sesssion. There's also the factor that group psychology often takes over when you join a new group. You are (mentally) pressured to act according to the group, and that can involve acting out the bodily movements. I mean if you attend a few sessions, and just sit still and don't feel anything, and you see people around you flailing, aren't you going to wonder "Well, maybe they know something I don't, why don't I try what they're doing." Also, I think there was a topic post a while back where moving around was becoming prevalent in the AKJ jatha, then somebody pointed out that the older Sikhs in that jatha did not used to move their heads when japping. Benti with folded hands to the whole sangat (whole Sikh panth): Move your tongue and not your body. 3) I guess it's true that it's better to have Sikhs in a group like this than going to somebody like Ashutosh. Basically, it seems that this group promotes keeping hair, etc and japping naam, albeit violently. One other thing they say is you're supposed to have darshan of God first, and then take amrit, which seems backward. And some other stuff. 4) The seeming unthinking loyalty to whatever Tarmala says is the type of thing that can end up bad. E.g., after Tarmala dies, the next leader could come up with even more weird stuff. That's what happened to the Namdhaaris. 5) Normal Sikhi: Take amrit, keep kakkars, do nitnem, avoid 4 bajjer kurehits, and japp naam to the max. Tarmala's Sikhi: Japp naam violently, become what they call a "sant", and then take amrit (if you want to). Conclusion: If this group discards some of the weirder stuff, they can be a force for parchar of normal Sikhi like S. Dhadrianwale is doing.

It is like a Sikh channel being called Pakistani channel or something! Again, there are more Punjabis who are Muslims than are Sikh. We have plenty of media which call themselves "Punjab Radio" Punjab TV, Punjabi Times, etc which are really Sikh-focused media. Since Muslims comprise a majority of Punjabis, why don't they have the right the word Punjabi? There's more to Punjab than the Indian-controlled part. 60% of Punjabis are Muslim, only 25% are Sikh. While Pakistan has 76 million Punjabis, India has only 29 million. Although I agree that there is phenomenon of aggressive proselytization in the UK, any Punjabi (even if he's Muslim) has a right to the word Punjabi.

I don't really think you should get hung up on which site is holier than another. As Gurbani says, you don't need to have gone to any specific shrine in order to find God. Yet at the same, Amritsar is our central location. Guru Gobind Singh ji chose to let his manmukh relatives control Darbar Sahib for a little while before sending Bhai Mani Singh to clear them out. As Guru Gobind Singh ji is Guru, Guru doesn't need to visit a holy place to get any spiritual benefit. Benefit is for us.

Does someone want to post a link to an actual article before making comments?

Could Mehdi be considered to be similar to the Mahdi? The prophesied redeemer of Islam? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

Maybe, maybe not. There were some reports that Badal had offered to give a government job to one family member. But his sons were 12 and 16, weren't they? In any case, I don't think it would be bad to have "our people" on the inside in the Punjab police. What do you think?

1. If a Muslim believes anybody can find God, that's fine. 2. And if another Muslim believes only Muslims can find God, and that Islam is the best and only religion, that's fine too. 3. But if a third Muslim believes that he has a duty to kill non-Muslims because they are non-Muslims, then obviously no one can live with that kind of person. It's the third category of people which aren't able to live in a multi-cultural society.