BhForce

Thanks for posting a spiritual topic after all the other querulous topics. I once heard Maskin ji talking about just this verse. I can't give any definite answer on your question, but when you think about it, it's amazing how God has created such an infinite creation. After all, we could have all been carbon copies of each other like amoebas are. Note also how Guru ji talks about the creation as a "khel", a play. The universe for God is like a playpen for a child.

Mala, I don't think fordcapri presented the statement about excluding Muslims as his own view. Rather, I think he was just asking if people on this forum agree with that view (which some people in England and Netherlands hold).

So he is admitting it? LOL. OK, leaving aside the funny business, the takeaway here so far as I see is that in the same way as a college graduate like the fellow above is ready to do whatever his guru says to the extent of marrying an HIV+ prostitute, so too we should be ready and willing to do whatever our Guru commands. Actually, what our Guru commands in the normal case is just to wake up early and recite the name of God. That's a lot easier than marrying a prostitute, yet we lazy **** can't even do that.

What rachnas are included in the Anandpuri bir? And the Patna bir?

jassa, you are very right that we shouldn't do false accusations on anybody. I don't even see a need for correct accusations for most people. Actually even for the Ragi, people knew about his shady character, but never said anything because of "Live and let live." Only when he started to speak against the foundations of the Khalsa panth did people start to break their silence. I would say, the stuff posted here might serve as the basis for further research, which should come out as substantiated facts in a new book.

Well said! Gurvah, If someone asks you this, you can say this: Why didn't Bhai Gurdas Ji include his Kabitts inside his Vaars? Why didn't Amrita Pritam (poetess) include all her poems and novels in a single book? Why didn't Sahir Ludhianvi put all his books into a single book? Why didn't Shakespheare publish all his plays into one single folio? I think we can discern 2 reasons: 1) length of material and 2) difference of subject matter and style You can instantly tell the difference between one of Bhai Gurdas Ji's kabitts vs. one of his vaars. It wouldn't make sense to mix up the two into one volume.

The fact is, if you listen to the old Mahapurkhs, it is a bit of beadbi. A moderate position on the matter would be this: If you're already amritdhari and reading from Gutka sahib, and use rumallas, rehls, etc. keep doing what you're doing. If on the other hand, you wouldn't know what to do with a rehl (Gutka-stand), any bani, that you get from anywhere would be a step forward. This is a very, very good God-centered translation and exposition. It really focuses on what we're here to do on Earth.

Multiculturalism works well if everyone agrees to live and let live.

It's true that these people (if they went with sharda towards the charlatan Ashutosh) are not strict Sikhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But that doesn't meant we can just lean back on our Lazy-boys and say "All is right with the panth." The fact is that some time or another these people took amrit, started wearing kakkars, did rehit, and nitnem. But now they're in the clutches of Ashutosh. As for the other Sikhs there, they see something in Ashutosh which we have not been able to preach is there in Guru Granth Sahib ji and the panth. This is our failing. Raise your hand if you have no relative (near or distant) who is a Radha Swami, Nirankari, Nurmehlia, Satnamia, Bhaniarewala, Sirsawala, etc. Very few hands will remain up. These people are from among us and we've failed to tell them about who the True Guru is, what real Sikhi is, and how it leads to darshan of God.

mcjalebi, while you state that the Akal Takhat and SGPC aren't playing a good role at the current time, in this topic we are merely discussing ideals on a hypothetical basis. So, in a possible future where the SGPC isn't dominated by a single person (Badal), and the Radha Swamis, Nirankaris, drinkers, etc. aren't eligible to vote in SGPC elections, and the SGPC doesn't have complete power over Akal Takhat, the Takhat could possibly actually play a positive role. Another alternative might be vatican status for the walled city of Amritsar. Note: Amritsar always used to have vatican status until it was totally taken over. The same management who ran Harmimander Sahib ran the city.

I noticed that too. The Sikhs with long beards are in a totally separate section cordoned off near the front.

I realise it's hard to post specific names and places on a board like this, but maybe it would be best to send specific details to the Akal Takhat secretariat. When prosecutors try to make a case in court, they usually make as many charges as they can, so that even if a defendant is exonerated in a few charges, the rest stick. Does he do this openly? I.e., doesn't even try to hide it? Totally shocking.

I think it's true that some of these Sikhs with the long beards may have purposely been seated up front as trophies. You do see turbans all through the "sangat", though. These people are, of course, our relatives. Chachas, taias, mamas, cousins etc. We have to be prepared to give references from Gurbani and GurHistory showing who Satguru is and what Sikhs are supposed to do. I think people aren't inspired by ordinary salaried preachers like the SGPC's. Their preaching is insipid. I think S. Dhadrianwale is the best option for mass-based parchar at this time in the Panth.

Can anyone confirm that he doesn't discriminate between jhatka and other meat? Note: Only cases of eating kutha can be adjudicated at Akal Takhat. There was a spokeswoman from KFC in another thread who said they serve halal in their restaurants because "it's their global mandate." If we can get confirmed cases of the Ragi eating ਕੁੱਠਾ, that'll add to the legal case against him at the Akal Takhat.

Thanks for the article. It would be good if the "reformers" would stop demanding parkash to stop at Hazur Sahib and Patna Sahib. It seems counterproductive to try to force changes in parkash of Dasam Granth. On the other hand, it also seems counterproductive to try to force parkash of Dasam Granth in neighborhood Gurdwaras where there isn't now. The status quo seems just fine, for now.

Thanks for this post. It's useless to deny it. This gathering dwarfs that of S. Dhadrianwale. These are lost souls (including the "Sikhs") forsaking Satguru running around to charlatans. And we have a lot of work to do as far as parchar and so on.

I want to say you have an eloquent writing style and you have obviously thought a lot about the issues. I hope that all those reading with such gifts will use them glorify the tradition of the Satguru instead of tearing it down in favour of a Marxist Shangri-la. Prof. Puran Singh was also a great intellectual. He came back to the Sikh tradition, and in the end acknowledged the smallness of his intellect and the greatness of the Gurus.

http://timetv.in/

The work of the Perfect One is perfect ਪੂਰੇ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1412&punjabi=t&id=59953 There's no need to change it. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sikhi is fine. We just need to preach the Sikhi we currently have. I agree that there's room for minor differences in maryada. Nihangs, taksalis, sant followers, AKJs, SGPCs and other should be able to sit down in one place. Let that not be an excuse to wholesale change our traditions. What about the choice to conserve the past? That's hard too, and it also has a big prize. No, we don't. First, Guru is Guru, and we are Sikh. Guru has the right to do anything, and it was pre-planned anyway. We have only the right to follow. The only possibility would be those panches who are totally absorbed into Guru and God making such changes. But the problem is such absorbed souls are the total slaves of the Guru, and they don't doubt for a second the Guru's maryada and traditions.

Yet, that's exactly what Gurbani asks us to become. Robots, copies, whatever. Gurbani uses the word slave. ਮੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਬੈ ਖਰੀਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ I am Your purchased slave, O True Lord Master. ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੈ ਤੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ My soul and body, and all of this, everything is Yours. ||1|| p396 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=396&punjabi=t&id=18260#l18260 Sikhi is a personal covenant in which one hands over the control over one's mind in exchange for the Word (the Gurmantar): ਮੁਲ ਖਰੀਦੀ ਲਾਲਾ ਗੋਲਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਾਗਾ ॥ I am Your slave, Your bonded servant, and so I am called fortunate. ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਚਨੀ ਹਾਟਿ ਬਿਕਾਨਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥੧॥ I sold myself at Your store in exchange for the Guru's Word; whatever You link me to, to that I am linked. ||1|| p 991 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=991&L=1&Lang=1&I=8817 You say that we don't need to speak and have similar opinions, but according to Gurbani, a true Sikh speaks only in accordance with the Guru, not himself: ਹਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਹੁਕਮਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥ By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands. p 763 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=763&english=t&id=32745 Abandon the mind's thinking and forget other loves: ਤਿਆਗੇਂ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤੜੀ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਂ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥ Ibid.

You say this, and yet the idea that every Sikh should be a copy of his Guru, expressed in these lines: ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਏਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. p444 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=444&english=t&id=20245#l20245 ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਖਾਸ। ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਉ ਕਰਉ ਨਿਵਾਸ। ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਚਕ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਭੇਵ। These are the basis for the fundamentalism displayed by the Nihangs and the AKJs. Yet, I doubt you would see that as favourable, given your other statements.

When someone views Sikhi as simply a vehicle to implement some eco-feminist agenda, Sikhs object. Sikhs also object when people preach astrology and horoscope reading, worship of Baba Sri Chand, and so forth as a part of Sikhi. I agree that mere skin colour should not be a basis for any kind of discrimination. I agree that Sikhsangat can get rowdy at times. We should try to say whatever we want to say without getting nasty. See also this thread: Egotistical Sikhs .

Why did you delete the sentence where I said we shouldn't fight about the length of Mul Mantar in this thread? Yet, that's exactly what you did in your post. You (indirectly) encouraged people not to fight about the length of Mul Mantar. How is controversial to say "Let's not fight about Mul Mantar"? The Admin power is a big power. It behooves admins to wield it fairly.

If there can't be a standard of morality or taboos (bajjar kurehit), what is even the point of associating to a religious group? Rather than following the currently fasionable trend of condemning Punjabi culture as outdated and ignorant, I laud those aspects of Punjabi culture which are helpful as a barrier from going down the wrong path in life. Something like a tenth to a third of all Americans are bastards (sons of someone other than who they think their father is). But that'll all be OK in the New Sikhi with new taboos. The whole point of a panth is social organisation. There were other followers of bhagats (such as kabirpanthis), but the unique insight of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was that to preserve the knowledge of true spirituality, a unified panth (religious community) was required. ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ । Vaar 1.45.3 http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&pauri=45&vaar=1 Guru Nanak Dev ji created a panth of common platform of values and worldview. Kartarpur had a definite maryada, and it wasn't some kind of weird New Age retreat like Baba Virsa Singh where one person is reading bani, another is worshipping fire, and so on.

Lol. I think you were trying to say something vaguely feminist, but ended up with a sexist statement saying that flowers and stuff are for girly girls and that "Real Men" shouldn't bother themselves with that. You see the institution of Panj Piyare as outdated. Yet language you speak ("male dominated partiarchial system") is that of feminists and Marxists, and they (from John Stuart Mill to Karl Marx) see the institution of marriage itself as oppressive and outdated. They're not talking about giving more rights or respect to women. They see the very institution itself as something that needs to be abolished. The point I'm making is that if you want to be seen as hip and relevant in your particular academic milieu (as opposed to the bad outdated and irrelevant Sikhi), you'll forever be modifying Sikhi until it has no difference between it and Marxist eco-feminism. In fact, the feminist Doris Jakobsh has already called Guru Granth Sahib as inherently anti-women in her books. So what will you do when faced with a choice of being relevant or being Sikh?