Kira

Nah it makes perfect sense remember! when you're trying to cure someone of a drug you simply give them an OD of said drug and hope they'll survive and learn not to abuse again. :lol2:

Bhaji I'm sure you have totally valid points but I'd advise you not to copy and paste such large passages. I understand you're very passionate about this issue but it would be a wise idea to summarize it in small chunks so it's not a massive hindrance to the eyes, or even when someone is on the phone

By whom lol. Yes it can go both ways, but usually you make some outlandish view point (such as Hindu's being Sikhs lol) without any decent evidence to back it up.

I used the Islamic word to convery my point as the Gurbani mentioned Muslim Pirs. Wow, I never knew that. This is all new to me, here i was thinking the name of goddess such as bhagauti or ram was referring to Hindu Deity and that we were being encouraged to worship them. wow I never knew that. I don't know if you know but the word Allah is used as well in Gurbani. Gurbani in the form we read it, didn't exist. The word of God, the Shabad Guru did exist which isn't restricted or confined to one word or method as the methods to praise god are endless. Guru Sahib even says how Muhammed was sent down by god but failed to distill the name of god in humans, he let his own pride and his own ritualistic thoughts get in the way. The same for almost all religious teachers. Gurbani even bears testament to that. ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ लोगा भरमि न भूलहु भाई ॥ Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā▫ī. O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ खालिकु खलक खलक महि खालिकु पूरि रहिओ स्रब ठांई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak mėh kẖālik pūr rahi▫o sarab ṯẖāʼn▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause|| ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥ माटी एक अनेक भांति करि साजी साजनहारै ॥ Mātī ek anek bẖāʼnṯ kar sājī sājanhārai. The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways. ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥ ना कछु पोच माटी के भांडे ना कछु पोच कु्मभारै ॥२॥ Nā kacẖẖ pocẖ mātī ke bẖāʼnde nā kacẖẖ pocẖ kumbẖārai. ||2|| There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2|| ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥ सभ महि सचा एको सोई तिस का कीआ सभु कछु होई ॥ Sabẖ mėh sacẖā eko so▫ī ṯis kā kī▫ā sabẖ kacẖẖ ho▫ī. The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made. ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥ हुकमु पछानै सु एको जानै बंदा कहीऐ सोई ॥३॥ Hukam pacẖẖānai so eko jānai banḏā kahī▫ai so▫ī. ||3|| Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3|| ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥ अलहु अलखु न जाई लखिआ गुरि गुड़ु दीना मीठा ॥ Alhu alakẖ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā gur guṛ ḏīnā mīṯẖā. The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses. ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥ कहि कबीर मेरी संका नासी सरब निरंजनु डीठा ॥४॥३॥ Kahi Kabīr merī sankā nāsī sarab niranjan dīṯẖā. ||4||3|| Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3|| ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥ प्रभाती ॥ Parbẖāṯī. Prabhaatee: ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥ Beḏ kaṯeb kahhu maṯ jẖūṯẖe jẖūṯẖā jo na bicẖārai. Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. ਜਉ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਤਉ ਕਿਉ ਮੁਰਗੀ ਮਾਰੈ ॥੧॥ जउ सभ महि एकु खुदाइ कहत हउ तउ किउ मुरगी मारै ॥१॥ Ja▫o sabẖ mėh ek kẖuḏā▫e kahaṯ ha▫o ṯa▫o ki▫o murgī mārai. ||1|| You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1|| So I'll ask once again. Who do you think God will listen to. A sikh who's mind is wandering around while he's reading Gurbani or a Muslim who's focusing on his love for Allah/God while he recites his prayers. IN Practice and certain aspects they are, but any religion that focuses on praising god with the removal of ritualistic practices is goodd. I ignored it as it has no meaning to the topic of Miri/Piri. Prahlad meditated on god and still went about his daily business. If you read the Dasam Granth it even says He was born to liberate the saints and was destined to be a devotee of god. This was due to the spread of evil,hypocrisy and the destruction of all things sacred. He was born as a true saint to liberate the saints. You can't achieve what you already had. After the death of his father Prahlad became King and spread righteousness and goodness. He didn't only do Bhaghti, he also did good deeds. I don't know much if anything about Baba Dhruv so I'll refrain from mentioning anything about him.

That's the keyword there, you personally. You shouldn't assert what you think as fact. Some people prefer doing phat in their mind, and yes they can comprehend it as well.

Did you know Guru Gobind Singh Ji did Bhaghti before the time of Sikhi or even our Gurbani had be handed to us and achieved Sach khand? are you now saying that Guru Sahib's prayers and meditation was weaker than our own? good to know. You think our prayer is stronger because you don't like the concept of equality, you disregard that spirituality is universal and that God is just as likely to help a muslim as he is to a sikh. Anyone who calls out to God in love and affection will be heard by God, whether they do that in the form of a Muslim prayer or any other prayer. You are restricting Waheguru to only Sikhism which is completely against Gurmat. Even Gurbani points out that is wrong as god is universal and accessible to all. Miri/Piri is dying in our community, People are either too focused on Piri or too focused on Miri. The Balance is gone.

They have ears, they listen, and then repeat with their mind. It's the exact same thing as saying it. You listen to something you can comprehend it perfectly. I heard an interesting lecture on the laws of thermodynamics, I didn't speak any way through it but afterwards I was perfectly able to recite aspects of it and I understood it flawlessly.

You're poor friend haha. Sometimes when I recite phatt alone at amrit vehla I feel like im being watched, as a result I start to heat up and get nervous. I do prefer doing it inside my mind though, it stops me making more mistakes, or at-least that is my belief.

There's nothing in Gurbani that contradicts evolution, or any of science. But we believe that God is the universe, but the universe is just a manifestation of Waheguru, a part of his creation. Waheguru is also a separate divine being who is perfectly conscious and capable of thinking,creating,destroying. Waheguru is hard to describe in so little words but he is isn't just a word for the universe. So no Pantheistic would be wrong.

The concept of Miri/Piri This is sort of a mini essay/discussion about a topic that I feel is ignored many times for some other reason. The Concept of Miri Pirri is a vital part of our own faith. Even in our most well known symbol that is associated with our faith wields these mighty swords. The Khanda, where the 2 swords guard our faith. Miri represents (in very little words) temporal authority while Piri represent Spiritual authority. When looking at other religions you'll notice they have symbols for balance and structure of the universe. Ying/Yang is a prime example. Miri Piri is sort of our own version of total balancee. Most people will suggest that Guru Hargobind Ji was the one who started this tradition. Yes, that is very true, Guru Sahib Ji did wear 2 swords to represent these values but the concept was already there well before Guru Sahib's time. Guru Nanak even spoke about it. ਕੋਟੀ ਹੂ ਪੀਰ ਵਰਜਿ ਰਹਾਝ ਜਾ ਮੀਰ੝ ਸ੝ਣਿਆ ਧਾਇਆ ॥ kotee hoo peer varaj rahaa-ay jaa meer suni-aa Dhaa-i-aa. Millions of religious leaders failed to halt the invader, when they heard of the Emperor's invasion. ਥਾਨ ਮ੝ਕਾਮ ਜਲੇ ਬਿਜ ਮੰਦਰ ਮ੝ਛਿ ਮ੝ਛਿ ਕ੝ਇਰ ਰ੝ਲਾਇਆ ॥ thaan mukaam jalay bij mandar muchh muchh ku-ir rulaa-i-aa. He burned the rest-houses and the ancient temples; he cut the princes limb from limb, and cast them into the dust. ਕੋਈ ਮ੝ਗਲ੝ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਅੰਧਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਰਚਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ ko-ee mugal na ho-aa anDhaa kinai na parchaa laa-i-aa. ((4)) None of the Mugals went blind, and no one performed any miracle. ((4)) Firstly let me say no a Sikh Prayer isn't stronger than a muslim. A sikh could sit here and recite any bani he wants but without total love for god it will be futile, the same will go for any muslim. The Point of these lines from Gurbani was a means of conveying that Piri isn't enough for the world. No matter how one may try, beg god for help, we need to take our own steps to solve our problems and thank Waheguru for guiding us and helping us achieve them. god gave us hands, we need to use them for our own protection, our own good deeds. Doing Naam and Bhagti isn't enough for this world. Guru Sahib further mentions this in Gurbani. ਅਮਲ੝ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜ੝ ਸਬਦੋ ਕਰਿ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਆਬ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਹਿ ਪਾਣੀ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ੝ ਈਮਾਨ੝ ਜੰਮਾਇ ਲੈ ਭਿਸਤ੝ ਦੋਜਕ੝ ਮੂੜੇ ਝਵ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧॥ Amal kar ḝẖarṯī bīj sabḝo kar sacẖ kī ĝb niṯ ḝėh pĝṇī. Ho▫e kirsĝṇ īmĝn jammĝ▫e lai bẖisaṯ ḝojak mūṛe ev jĝṇī. (1) Make good deeds the soil, and let the Word of the Shabad be the seed; irrigate it continually with the water of Truth. Become such a farmer, and faith will sprout. This brings knowledge of heaven and hell, you fool! (1) How are we, as people even going to reach that state of Spiritual enlightenment if all we're doing is sitting there reciting the word of god? The word of god is good, how are you going to get by in life if we're not trying to do good? Even our Guru Sahib went to war when they were threatened. They took part in political aspects of the world, they opened up institutions of education, Guru Angad Dev Ji himself modified punjabi and introduced a new and improved Gurmukhi script. Schools were opened to increase literacy rates. Piri is only one half of the coin. Is Miri being discouraged in our faith now? If Piri is spiritual knowledge, then Miri is worldly knowledge. Piri is all about spirituality then Piri is about what goes on in our world, political,science,social everything. Our Guru Sahib's discouraged the yogi approach of life, living in total detachment from the world, discouraging any form of contact or involvement in it. Our Guru Sahib heavily discouraged this. But you can now see some preachers and even some laymen who are encouraging something similar. Only it's being encouraged to be done at home. People are more insistent on doing naam 24/7, sitting there doing only that all the time and ignore the world. That's admirable, but also only half way there . But also doesn't make you any different from the yogi that did that high above in mountains or even well away from Society. Guru Sahib never wanted us to be detached from the world. We were encouraged to be involved in it, in a positive respect. History bears testament to that. One will never reach that state of oneness with god if we're rejecting his very creation. Let's have a look at Gurbani as a whole. Not certain passages or even certain parts. But Gurbani as a whole. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the Dasam Granth, everything. We can sit there and understand Gurbani by reading the translations. But that isn't usually enough. We need to explore a bit deeper. We need to use other forms of knowledge, worldly knowledge to be precise. For example let's look at Guru Gobind Singh Ji's letter to Aurangzeb the actual history behind it can help one understand it even better. Even in Gurbani there are tuks which refer to certain events in Guru Sahib's life. ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਉਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਲਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਪੀਰਹੁ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁਰਟੀਐ ॥ His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru. ਦਿਲਿ ਖੋਟੈ ਆਕੀ ਫਿਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਚਾਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਛਟੀਐ ॥ These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs These refer to Baba Sri Chand, the son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. If we were to read this as a stand alone (i.e not being familiar with any aspect of Guru Sahib's life) we may even skim over it. But armed with that crucial knowledge we appreciate it all that more. Again im not saying we shouldnt appreciate any aspect of Gurbani, but we're all un-intelligent compared to the divine word. But one might say what about those subjects or branches of knowledge that may seem "unorthodox" to be associated with Gurbani. For example science. When people think of science they may picture big bearded white haired men who reject god and think they have the answer to everything in the universe. This is a massive misconception. Science has always asserted it never will or does know all the answers. It seeks to provide an explanation to certain issues and certain mysteries of the physical world we live in. These explanations helped us advance as a species and as people. We can now fly with the help of automobiles, with the help of medical science we can now cure diseases and even help infertile couples conceive. We can do so much due to this branch of knowledge. All through the grace of Maha Kaal. But how does science correspond with Gurbani? Our Gurbani is perhaps one of the only religious scriptures or the divine words of god which have never contradicted or even argued with science. in fact Science has worked hand in hand with Gurbani. Not going into too much detail this essay is a nice take on how Gurbani has corresponded with science as a whole. This goes into so much more depth but it's an interesting read, again not finished it all but it's a fascinating from what I have read http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/gss_sikhscience.pdf BasicsOfSikhi also does a video to explain this in a nice way. I've not finished it all yet but it seems to be an interesting find. So while we're happy enough associating ourselves with Piri, Miri is however slowly and surely being diminished. Yes Politics isn't going to help us reach god, no science won't help us understand god. But it does help us in this world, to sow the seeds of good deeds. Seva isn't restricted just to the Sikh community, Seva is meant for the entire world as a whole. Through Politics one can help change laws and rules which are bound to discriminate against a certain community. Through Science we can help revolutionize the world, create cures for diseases, new technology and further help humanity as a whole. Through economics we can learn about finances and use that to become more efficient people in terms of money. The money we can save can be used for other more beneficial services, donate it to charity or use it to sponsor a child in Africa or something. The thread that spoke about a proper "sikh" profession, a proper Sikh Profession is easily anything that doesn't violate the pillars of our faith. Most Jobs wont do that. But the deeds we do with those jobs may be anti-sikh. In most family there are only 3 jobs that seem to be worth considering. Law,Medicine or Engineering. That's about it, there are other jobs out there. Some may even be less shady than becoming a lawyer, who may have to defend a morally compromising character. Let's face it how many Sikh lawyers would reject the person once they pull out a massive check. Not very many. While we do need focus on our Spiritual life, We also need to focus on our worldly life. People such as Baba Randhir Singh Ji who many consider an enlightened being, he too was very involved worldly affairs. He was also a very well read individual, he was well aware of what was happening in the west alongside what was happening in India. He even mentions the big bang theory which during his time was in it's infancy and still being developed/proven. Considering it was still being combated by the Steady State Theory supporters it would be a big leap to say "look how science has just discovered something in Gurbani" . His faith was so un-shaking that he was confident that Gurbani was true and he wasn't wrong, not at all. Such a man who was so Spiritually wise, here he is looking and keeping up with the world. Not to mention his contributions to the Indian independence movement. Obviously we should do Patt, and we should focus on god. But we should also be encouraging not just ourselves but our youth to branch out and gain any sort of worthwhile knowledge, rather than ignoring the Miri and only focusing the Piri, we should be in a form of equilibrium balance with both. If not then at-least have awarement of the world. what's the point of living in say a city, a village or even with a large group of people if we're still following that Yogic method of detachment. So what do you guys think? do you feel that Miri/Piri is a concept that's overlooked in Sikh society today? or am I just rambling :D Thank you for reading. disclaimer: I am not a sikh scholar who is an expert on Sikh theology or even Gurbani. Nor am I a Brahmgiani, I am nothing more than a laymen. In this essay/large post I may have unknowingly made many mistakes and I beg that waheguru will forgive me and my fellow Sikhs here will correct me. These are purely my own thoughts and views. I pray to Waheguru to forgive anything I may have said here that is not in line with Sikhi and I kindly ask someone to correct me if they feel I have made an error somewhere. Thank you :D

You're not going to get anywhere if you're mind is off on a tangent. Guru Nanak even said Conquer the mind, conquer the world. Some sikhs sit in absolute silence when meditating but their minds are constantly chanting waheguru. You do simran with your mind, not your tongue. Yes you should recite bani, but your mind is actual obstacle stopping your journey to god.

You do simran with your mind, Gurbani even says that, you do Jap within 24/7, not when "you can't do it with your mouth". How would even those who can't speak do it, they do it with your mind.

You do simran with your mind anyways, not with your mouth. It's futile if your mind is concentrating on what's for dinner while saying Waheguru

Someone should send her that video about exposing her. Never heard of her before I watched it to be honest, she seems like one of those wannabe-theologists. The type richard or christopher would destroy with little intellectual effort.

Sometimes I wonder why the media employing morons like her.I almost feel sorry for the poor misguided fools who buy her propaganda.

The British weren't perfect, they did quite a lot of morally unjustifiable deeds. But branding them all out evil is a bit of a stretch but at the same time calling them saints is ignorance. Most Indians are very narrow minded, They assume History is black and white.

Most people ignore the good the British did, they industrialized India and Indians are still using that machinery and methods the British left them. They even outlawed things such as Sati and did promote education somewhat. They built infrastructure that India still uses. Yet the British were demons who terrorized india and did nothing for them says most Indians.

No, do you not get what I said? A true Gursikh will always be doing simran even when their not saying "Waheguru,Waheguru" 24/7. They enter such a state their constantly doing it, I never said they shouldn't sit down and do the actual simran, they do that anyways. There's not a single person who would sit there and spend all day,every day actively doing it with their mouths. Their minds are already doing that for them.

You really do struggle to read don't you? I said Do you see that word 24/7? do you know what I meant by that? They don't sit around doing simran or naam Japna as an active process, a part of them is always doing. At the same time they go about their daily lives. YES they will do simran actively whenever they can but that doesn't mean they will spend their every every moment of their time doing it actively by saying the words.

Can I ask if you've been told to take Amrit or have you already taken it?

wrong thread please delete

Parts of it. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in his previous life attained Mukhti from this life and merged with the supreme being, seeing all the evil and hypocrisy on earth Akal Purkh decided to send Guru Sahib down to earth once again to uproot evil and start a path of truth. Guru Sahib was reluctant to leave the side of Waheguru but he did come down to Earth to do such a deed. Find me one other Person who can re-count their past lifes and have come directly from Sach Khand. http://searchgurbani.com/dasam_granth/page/136 It starts from around here I believe. I never said it wasn't. The true Gursikh's very soul meditates on god 24/7 even if they don't "speak" the word waheguru. wow this new format is good

and people wonder why I say I don't want to get married.

He should read Batchar Natak (hope I spelled that right). Guru Gobind Singh Ji's entire History is unique and one off. There's never been a man born like him or could be like him.

I completely agree, You go to a doctor for medicines but even then there is the chance of complications. Waheguru's kirpa cures us and prevents them from happening.