Mat Pulo Rai

Appreciate the time, what we can say is all religions are based on faith, but Guru Nanak jee Sikhi is different it’s based on falsifiability, let’s leave aside of all the implication, from why did it take so long to surface, or why so little amount of people this truth is available, this is about the claims of Truth and shouldn’t supersede this yet. According to Guru Nanak dev jee the God claim can be proven now the leap of faith is will you spend a short amount of your time to follow what is laid out for you to realise God is real. I will lay out how we do this and what you expect to find.,

Well tbh im a big follower of the atheist movement, i have unspoken and indescribable respect and love for people like Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens Dan Dannet, Richard dawkins, who speak up for reason and the scientific method, you on the other hand i wouldn’t call i quote "most logically thinking person that i know of" due to the statements i made, which were not answered due to i think, not wanting to give it anytime, because you are stuck in your way of thinking.

You obviously havent read all of the post on this topic, either do that or you'll find my answer via search.

Well they should cause you cant be more wrong, there are so many implications to what he is saying that he doesnt even understand them himself, so I'll do my best to layout what they are, not to fully explain just put out there enough information that it will allow them to think about the implications to what he is saying.. 1. Satguru has said without naam all considered thieves, what is naam, can you tell me where naam is written in within the Bible and koraan 2. We are told by guru shaib that we are to pass punj that in to Sun mandal while alive, can he explain what sun mandal is also what are the signs of the punj thaht which the mind passes through 3. Naam can only be given by Sat Guru, is he implying that Jesus is Sat Guru and Mohammed? 4. Christian doctrine dictates the 2nd coming of Jesus where all will be judged does this mean everyone including sikhs, where does it say this with Gur Bani ( i really wana hear this one) 5. Within the koran it speaks of Mohammed flying to Heaven on a winged horse, Gurbani states Sachkhand is Nirgun, so explain how Mohammed took a horse to heaven.

Geo, though this is a given Jang doesnt speak for the whole of the Sikh population, and his views are his own.

Whats wrong with atheist, are you afraid of there views and them questioning? Well this is new to me, i must be reading bani wrong, I've never heard that all paths lead to God, does it say it in Gurbani, please tell me i think my understanding of sikhi is wrong.

Cool story bro, whats that got to do with the god claim, haha just joking :D but thats amazing what kinda stuff do you see, your room with you in it or what??

Wrong. I find it kind of shocking that you use claims in quantum physics to match your way of thinking, how wrong you are to so deductive, as far as I know the theory of quantum and particle physics is still trying to be understood with people working on the theory for over 30 years, Show me one reputable text book or physicist backing these claim. I watched Leonard Susskind and Lawrence Krauss and never have they claimed the thing you are, so could you provide some evidence of scientist that claim these are the conclusions of the observations of measurement problem and where within Gurbani does it say we merg back with the "infinite pool of creativity" and we cannot observe God with these senses. Thank you, look forward to your reply

Again many people like to miss out the full quote from Carl Marx and try to score points but lets look at what the real quote is Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.Karl Marx Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right Usually all one gets from the above is “Religion is the opium of the people“ (with no ellipses to indicate that something has been removed). Sometimes “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature“ is included. If you compare these with the full quotation, it’s clear that a great deal more is being said than what most people are aware of. In the above quotation Marx is saying that religion’s purpose is to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them that this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. Although this is a criticism of religion, Marx is not without sympathy: people are in distress and religion provides solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs. The quote is not, then, as negative as most portray (at least about religion). In some ways, even the slightly extended quote which people might see is a bit dishonest because saying “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature...” deliberately leaves out the additional statement that it is also the “heart of a heartless world.”

Cant Geo ask questions without, which seems to me being bullied, your not doing a good job on coming across as compassionate.

I think the difference between other religions and Sikhism hinges on one thing, falsifiability, as for the question on only few people being able to find god again due to the nature and size of other faiths, well that’s a whole different topic, which is covered within gurbani, its states we all stated of sinless and over time indulged in Maya, this is where gurbani talks about the transition of our minds going from pure to Human like, then to Goast like in kaal jug. Not everyone had been enticed by maya, people like Guru Gobind singh Jee writes about their love for God and reuniting before kaal jug. I just wana keep drumming home the point of faith and falsifiability, all other religions are confined to faith, that jesus arose after 3 days or that Mohammed rode to heaven on a unicorn may sound silly thats what horses that fly are called. Where they are based on faith you are asked to put aside your common sense and rationality and believe extraordinary claims without proof, Guru Nanak Dev jee dispelled all these through Bagthi marag where he layed out in detail how to the see spiritual form of Kaal, how to see the spiritual form Punj Choor, Darma raja. But yes it’s true that people in our faith have not got to this stage but still believe in this premise, call them what you want. But as said in a previous post anyone that argues from a faith position doesn’t understand Sikhi. And will give examples like it says it hear, or that you cant not know there is isnt a God so there must be, or look at the universe where did it come from someone must have made it. This doesnt resinate with me and nor does it with what my gurus have said, Truth is in doing not in Faith.

I like your viewpoint, I prefer people, who say when they dont know i dont know, i guess where im going with this point is people, profess knowledge they dont have, whether it be the god claim, or some other spiritual claim, which is argued by feeling rather than empirical evidence. Sikhism is not a religion based on Faith.. It’s based on things which can be falsified, so anyone that argues on merit of faith doesn’t know a thing about Sikhism And the conversation between the professor and student is cringe worthy Thats right there is no other way to God than through Sat Guru, its also layed-out within Gurbani where people without Sat Guru go after there life ends

Thats exactly what Gurbani is saying, there is no other way to Defeat Kaal, Punj choor and Merg our souls back with Vaheguru. Bin sathigur kinai n paaeiou kar vaekhahu man veechaar | Without the True Guru, no one has found Him; reflect upon this in your mind and see. Heres the full shabad http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=112

I didnt mean you, only that other people were being dismissive and negative I want to stay on what you said about the proposition being a "IF" and not something we can’t possibly prove, according to your belief Let’s say for example, I said to you that I had a cure to cancer only IF you would follow the medical treatment, the logical thing would be to ask a few detailed questions, is the person im speaking to a Medical Doctor, i.e does he have the credentials to make a claim on this subject, does he work for a reputable cancer treatment facilities, let’s say you do all the checks and everything checks out, he has a medical degree works for a reputable cancer research facility and is sponsored by a Government department, knowing these things you can make a more informed judgement, right? Now let’s say this is how “you” rationalise, what I have propositioned not to you but anyone reading is that Gurbani states how one can reveals the existence of the creator is only by following there teachings. Gurbani isn’t asking for alot of time to prove these claims, only that you follow them 100% for a while let’s say 6 months, it was alot sooner for me weeks actually when I realised that everything Gurbani said was true and that God was true. To those who say they don’t need to prove that God is real because its written within Gurbani, you are missing the point 100% Gurbani is 1, information on Vaheguru and how to find Vaheguru again, so just believing you have done nothing really other than just believe, where is your life have you given up lust anger greed, back chatting Ego, what part of Gurbani have we been able to say yes im at this stage thanks to Gurbani, or are we just riding each and every day with the most important discovery to be Given to Man Kind. Richard Dawkins once said, if it was to be true that God was real. It would mean, that everything we know to this point is Totally wrong, forget everything you know because we really don’t know anything, this is what you call intellectual honesty, someone who has spent 40 years of his life on understanding and teaching evolution at Oxford University to say God being true has no equal in terms of truth in the universe. So again, how science and rational mind works is to take claims and try disprove them, we should be humble and concede that we may not know everything, and that there is someone i.e Gur Bani that knows.

Baji Ocd is a mental health condition and you should consult your doctor on the right path for your treatment, have you got a family support system in place, like do you live alone? Also as other posters have stated, nothing people can say can affect you, apart from what you allow, meaning as you have seen the worrying you put yourself through because of the things he said have affected you in the way you live your life, the point is you have become your own worst enemy putting negative thought which has effected your peace of mind. I just want to say you have not done anything wrong we all have been in positions where we have no knowledge and let fear take hold, like when, I once heard someone say I've accidently eat a bar of chocolate containing egg, he was so worried that he may have broken his amrit, baji it’s about learning what and educating our selves on Gur Bani, but you done a good thing asking because there are Gur Sikhs on this forum who are kooji and are practically following sikhi, and so can help.

No, what do you mean, give abit more detail, i know of articles about preception, I've read about the feeling of feeling like we are looking through 3rd person, its a neurological, phenomena but abit more information on what you mean would help

Kinda like in my last post, the issue of the protest may have been polarised due to another reason, though i can’t be 100% sure, but it does seem abit blown out of context, with so much up roar over a picture. and for idol worship you are right, there is no image or form we have been told to worship but shabad guru, that said there’s nothing wrong with pictures, as they can act as a reminder of our past, from wars to great moments which we should remember I myself find it up lifting every time I see Sant Jarnail singh’s picture within the Langar hall

Cant seem to recollect, but it was written about in a local punjabi news paper, though i cant think the reason could have been good, because they were back and running after 2 weeks

Looking forward to it the launch

Haha i kinda agree, i saw the interview with the committee members, they were saying they had to move it after consultation from health and safety inspectors, I think showing the report to the sangat would ease any distrust on having to move the picture, but i think with some of the people upset, have a underlying issues with the current administration, not too long ago they tried to stop Punjabi lessons and gurbani lessons, which in my opinion was totally wrong, taking away lessons to over 200 children, it was only after pressure from parents lessons were allowed resume on Saturday, it’s just when you get hump for someone anything they do can come across as an attack, this picture issue may have just polarised that feeling further.

Thats amazing to hear, first try not judge Sikhism by ones who follow it, you will find a lot of people on the outside have the Roop (look) of a Sikh but may be less Sikh you expect them to be. Sikhism is the pursuit of Truth; you should start with trying to understand these underlying tenets, Mun, Kaal, Punj Choor, Chitar gupt, Daram Raja, Trai Gun thihee gunee sansaar bhram suthaa suthiaa rain vihaanee | The world is asleep in the three modes and doubt; it passes the night of its life sleeping. It may feel like you’ve been thrown in to the deep end, but these are the basics of Sikhism, we need to understand what Sat Guru has said why we are here and as the above shabad explains, we are asleep in 3 modes and doubt, understanding this is beginning to learning how the mind has been corrupted.

A lot of people have their own interpretations of what they think is God. What if you were told, that it is outlined with Guru Granth Shaib who Vaheguru is, would you still harbour your own personal adaptations? I see it as a shame that the "whole" spectrum of Reality is outlined by Guru Granth shaib, it is a failing of the Panth and people who preach that it has allowed so many schools of thought to creep in to our youngsters, who find it ok to rationalise their own feelings and assert “truth claims”, to people listening to mystics, to reading books.. about the afterlife. There are 2 types of people i see ones that are humble to understand they know nothing and are dependent of Guru jee's guidance, from, what it means to be a good person, to what our role within this world is to the ultimate truth of Reality. The other willfull people who try find their own meaning in life, but still flying the banner of religion, only not to really follow its tenets but be half and half, to feel like they are a part of something but not to really do more than say they are Sikh but still make assertions on matters with information that "feels/makes" sense to them. People we need to stop looking outside of Guru Granth Shaib and have faith that everything we need to know is within Sat Guru.

So far we've heard that the reasoning for taking down the boards, are one, people using drugs within the lift or unacceptable behaviour, to idol type worshiping From my own experience I’ve seen people bowing down to a depiction of Guru Gobind singh at the stairs to the dawaan, so anyone one of these claims could be credible, we will just have to wait and see what their reasoning are. Personally I dont think there is an issue to depictions of great Sikhs, wars or moments that remind us of past hardships our nation went through, i myself get uplifted every time i see the photo of Sant Jarnail Singh within the langar, but there is a thin line which I have seen been crossed from awe and reverence to idol worship, the committee, which is installed for the betterment of our sangat should, if taking down pictures or taking steps, be more clear about their reasoning’s when effecting things sangat care about. This is a matter of education and the constant challenge we have to make to Hindu ritualism which is creeping in to our families and wider sangat.

The reason i did reply to you asking if there is a Creator is because It bothers me when people are negitive, when people ask about the claims of there faith, generally someone who is dismissive does not know much about his/her faith. And what if it could be proven, the asseretion of a Creator which intern mean a after life, bestowed morailty and reincarnation do you care engough to falsify the claim, Given the garavity of what this means.. look forward to your reply.

Sant, Gurmukh, Sadhu, Brumhgiani, are the names Vaheguru gives to his beloved children who follow Baghti Mahrag learnt from fellow Sants to pass through Bav Sagar to Sach Khand/Nigjh Kar sa(n)th sehaaee raam kae kar kirapaa dheeaa milaae || The Saints, the Lord's helpers, in their mercy, have united me with Him. This path originated from Sat Guru who opened the gates to Naam. bin sathigur ko naao n paaeae prabh aisee banath banaaeehae ||9|| Without the True Guru, no one finds the Name. Such is the making which God has made. ||9|| sathigur thae paaeae veechaaraa || From the True Guru, contemplative meditation is obtained. su(n)n samaadhh sachae ghar baaraa || And then, one dwells with the True Lord in His celestial home, the Primal State of Absorption in Deepest Samaadhi. People should not take this lightly this the decree of Vaheguru himself, that no one can obtain Naam unless through Sat Guru, there are implications to this, manly no Sant, Sandhu Gurmukh are able to give Naam, it is not within their ability to do so, though they can take you direct to Sat Guru, only if the thirst within that Beloved Sikh is at this state kabeer birahu bhuya(n)gam man basai ma(n)th n maanai koe || Kabeer, the snake of separation from the Lord abides within my mind; it does not respond to any mantra. raam biougee naa jeeai jeeai th bouraa hoe ||76|| One who is separated from the Lord does not live; if he does live, he goes insane. ||76|| har milanai no man lochadhaa karam milaavanehaar || My mind yearns to meet the Lord. If only He would show His Mercy, and unite me with Himself! Those within this state of deep separation where sleep, food is forgotten, Sants within their mercy can unite those with Sat Guru sa(n)th sehaaee raam kae kar kirapaa dheeaa milaae || The Saints, the Lord's helpers, in their mercy, have united me with Him. sa(n)th sehaaee praem kae ho thin kai laagaa paae || The Saints are the helpers of the Lord's lovers; I fall and touch their feet. Over time people have become very sceptical/cynical of the term Saints, so they should, this is what is within Guru Bani about Fake Sant/Saadhs Sant Anardi kich Na Bujia Kathni Karia Maya Nall Lugi Fake Sants will not be able to decvifer the truth, and will fixate on wealth We have been told that there will be imposters who see the congregation as a quick and easy mode of income, bahuthae bhaekh karai bhaekhadhhaaree || The disguisers put on their various disguises. a(n)thar thisanaa firai aha(n)kaaree || Desire rages within them, and they carry on egotistically. aap n cheenai baajee haaree ||6|| They do not understand themselves, and they lose the game of life. ||6|| kaaparr pehir karae chathuraaee || Putting on religious robes, they act so clever, maaeiaa mohi ath bharam bhulaaee || but they are totally deluded by doubt and emotional attachment to Maya. But cynicism should lead to inquire not closed a mind; we nor learn or reveal but through inquiry. Bani talks of the domain of Sargun which is out of our understanding; we can then say we only have the tools, which are revealed by Guru Granth Shaib Jee, in which -What Sants mean to Sat Guru and what they say about their beloved Sants - What their Role is -Also how we tell the difference between Fake and Real Guru Guru Arjan Dev Jee on Saints Gauree, Fifth Mehla: sa(n)th kee dhhoor mittae agh kott || Millions of sins are wiped away by the dust of the feet of the Saints. sa(n)th prasaadh janam maran thae shhott ||1|| By the Grace of the Saints, one is released from birth and death. ||1|| sa(n)th kaa dharas pooran eisanaan || The Blessed Vision of the Saints is the perfect cleansing bath. sa(n)th kirapaa thae japeeai naam ||1|| rehaao || By the Grace of the Saints, one comes to chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause|| sa(n)th kai sa(n)g mittiaa aha(n)kaar || In the Society of the Saints, egotism is shed, ho balihaaree saajanaa meethaa avareethaa ||2|| I am a sacrifice to my pure friends, the immaculate Saints. ||2|| This is the importance of Sat Sangat, millions of sins are wiped in the sangat of Saints. -What is the roll of Sant sa(n)th kee saevaa naam dhhiaaeeai || Serving the Saint, one meditates on the Naam. In the congregation we learn how to meditate on Vaheguru which is the only freedom from Maya and liberation. It is important to know the technique to meditating dhhun mehi dhhiaan dhhiaan mehi jaaniaa guramukh akathh kehaanee ||3|| Through concentration on the sound (gurmantar) knowledge is attained, Gurmukhs have explained this through the teachings of Akathh. How we tell the difference between Fake Sants Guru sahib states who takes the title sant and does Akaath Katha should be at this avasta and be able; 1. Tell the story of God and lead you through bav sagar to Sachkhand giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe One with Knowledge, supreme stillness of mind void of maya (thoughts) and able to hear Naam is able to give knowledge of Akathh (God) thath thael naam keeaa baathee dheepak dhaeh oujyaaraa || With the oil of knowledge about the essence of reality, and the wick of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, this lamp illluminates my body. To add to this sant has the permission of God to tell the story of Nirgun and Sargun, and been instructed what avasta he has achieved, must passed to Gur Sangat, through practical meditation Sant will practically show you the path, take you to Naam if they wish, if you have the thirst mentioned in the shabad above, very few will, they then work to instil that love we have lost due to our attachment with maya maadhhavae kiaa keheeai bhram aisaa || O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion? jaisaa maaneeai hoe n thaisaa ||1|| rehaao || Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause|| Audio of this shabad being sung Bhai Balbir Singh. Insight on Akath Katha If asked what the Mind is could we say we know, where Sachkhand is, where Chitar Gupt place is, what Vaheguru looks like, where the Mind stays? its in this state of blindness the Sants start Akath from our Mool (origin) eaehu sareer sabh mool hai maaeiaa || This bodys origins/source is Maya; dhoojai bhaae bharam bhulaaeiaa || in love with duality, it is deluded by doubt. Then explaining what the relationship between the Mind, Punj Choor, to Kaal, chitar Gupt, Daram Raja, Dhoots, Atma are. We are then taught how to win this Game of love, the game in we were sent to play kaam krodhh lobh mohu jeethahu aisee khael har piaaree ||2|| Conquer sexual desire, anger, greed and worldly attachment; only such a game as this is dear to the Lord. ||2|| If we play Guru Jee says; jan naanak guramukh jo nar khaelai so jin baajee ghar aaeiaa ||4||1||19|| O servant Nanak, that person who plays this game as Gurmukh, wins the game of life, and returns to his true home. ||4||1||19|| These are some of the basics of what Sat Guru has left us in a vast Knowledge library within Gurbani, we learn that without having someone who has himself seen spoken to Vaheguru it is impossible to defeat Punj Choor or even start to understand what the Unseen world consist of this is the importance of Mahapurkhs.