rupinder singh

Lol. Singh do u think that? i gotta say i disagree. Possibly in our kids, kids, kids, lifetime but not now. U guys wouldnt even be debatin bout it if i didnt start up the thread! lmao. Anywayz, No1 is doing anythin about it!!! look at how many of our elders disagree with caste, but are not doing anythin about it, and then funny how they 4get caste is wrong wen it comes to their daughters weddin!! lol, dont worry man i werent really gonna punch him, even tho he does deserve it!! And itz not only ramgrias that have all that stuff at a Gurdwara, nearly every Gurdwara is the same that is based on caste!! every1s forgot the meanin of Khalsa!! I think we will witness changes in our lifetime, particularly as the offspring of the more influential Ramgharia clan members are not really interested in running Gurdwaras and aren't so focused on Sikhi. I think you will see a gradual takeover by more focused youth, even if they are initially from Ramgharia clan names, who will eventually drop the Ramgharia label. I'd give it another 30 years in the UK. In my view the youth tend to have a realistic and honourable view about handling Guru Ji's golak and would feel more accountable for their actions. At least that's my optimistic view of my generation!!

KKV using Akhalee Nihang Baba Hardeesh Singh Jee Welling Vahleh's account You know what there was no need for that...I know some Singhs and Singhnee'yaas from here in UK and in India that don't use starch - they live a proper Nihang lifestyle. I DO agree that maybe they should lay off the starch and that but don't you think its a bit childish for dissin them as a group? People from that background are NOT all the same. Sorry for any offense! Just bantering with my fellow brothers. I know that not all official members of Ramgharia nation use starch to keep their turbans together, I heard a few attempt to tie it everyday.. Misconceptions all round, I am just pushing the stereotype.

Everyone wants control of that Golak, and by making it more exclusive (i.e. caste) the control remains close knit.

In practice our predecessors, elders, Kirtanyas, Jathedars, Gurmukhs and Mahapursh's have made decision to take their kirpans off when travelling by air maybe in order to fulfil a bigger picture of parchar and sewa. If Manmohan Singh removed his kirpan to enter a pub or brothel then I would say that was wrong. Fact is he was handing in a petition to the Government and made a quick decision to remove his kirpan in order to carry out his panthic task. I agree he could have held his ground, but I’m sure it wasn’t a malicious decision.

Caste or "Biridari" run Guru Ghars goes back even pre-Africa days. Even today in certain villages in Punjab you will find that the lower "caste" associated Sikhs cannot enter certain Gurdwaras. Even Anand Karajs cannot be conducted in certain Pinda de Gurdwaray unless the couple are Zamindars. Going back to Ramgaria Gurdwaras, from my lunderstanding the Birmingham, Coventry, Slough and Leeds Gurdwaras set up the "Ramgharia by birth" rule as late as the mid 1980's in paranoia of a potential Khalistani takeover. By ensuring no Jatts could enter the committee they assumed that they could remain detached from the issues in Punjab and protect the golak money from being used for the alleged purchase of tanks and arms. Prior to that I know for a fact Coventry Ramgharia Gurdwara had no official rule stopping a non-Ramgharia standing in the committee.

Can Ramgharia parentage be proved by DNA profiling? Are Ramgharia kids born with a chisel or spanner in their hands. Anyway, enough mucking about. To get to the root of the problem we need to understand where it started going wrong. From what I have been told by a “right wing” Ramgharia is that the main emphasis in issuing the Ramgharia by birth rules was a quick fix solution in the mid 1980’s to ensure the non-takeover off their Gurdwaras by the “miltants” or Khalistanis of the 1980s who were presumed to be Jatts.

A simple excuse for another character assination!! Let's start a new SS witchunt. Whilst Manmohan Singh DAL Khalsa rushes to take his kirpan off at a govt building let’s also remember we rush to remove our kirpans when catching our flights to Amritsar.

The ramgharias are near extinction. With the global shortage of starch, the species are collapsing from exhaustion having to fold and tie their dastaars every day. The only thing that can save the ramgharia nation from loosing its cultural heritage is a discovery of infinite starch powder.

Comsuming alcohol is expensive stuff man!! See the link below and check much you can save from not consuming alcohol!! http://www.whatsthecost.com/drinking.aspx

LOL. Is there any ekta in the first place which backs up allegations of "breaking" the sangat up? Come on! Isn't the Cross Roads Monthly Youth Keertan darbar aimed at a AKJ "audience" whilst I suspect the travelling Leicester Monthly Keertan darbar is aimed at entering different Gurdwaras and interacting with a larger cross section of the Sikh Sangat!!!!

Some more helpful info. The Criminal Justices Act 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, Section 139 being the most important. "It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)] The phrase "good reason" is intended to allow for "common sense" possession of knives, so that it is legal to carry a knife if there is a bona fide reason to do so. Examples of bona fide reasons which have been accepted include: a knife required for ones trade (e.g. a chefs knife), as part of a national costume (e.g. a sgian dubh), or for religious reasons (e.g. a Sikh Kirpan).

In my view we do to little to counter the misinterpretations and misrepresentations of our kaum. 20 years on and all we can do is produce cheap repetitive youtube videos making our Mahapurkahs look like gangstas. We have our annual day out in sunny Hyde Park where for the past 20 years we have been seeing the same small turnout. As a Kaum we have not been able to even gather enough statistical information to back up our side of the story and therefore it always gives way to these other GOI/Orthodox Hindu biased views clouding the real truth.

Under the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which deals with carrying articles with points or blades, there is an exemption, if the person is carrying the item for religious reasons. There is however, no specific exemption under the Prevention of Crimes Act 1953. The person carrying the offensive weapon would have to show that they had a reasonable excuse. The inference being that the carrying of the Kirpan for religious reasons would fall into this category. So depending on the circumstances a Police officer can arrest you for wearing a kirpan if he/she feels you are a threat, otherwise you are allowed to wear kirpans of any size. The responsiblity lies with the Gursikh on how he/she portrays themselves when in Sikhi roop. Incidents where the kirpan is used in cheap gang fights (i.e Handsworth mela 2007) only causes more problems for other genuine Gursikhs who are trying to follow Rehat.

Sikh: There are very few Sikhs in Plymouth and the nearest Sikh temple is in Exeter - the Guru Arjan Niwas Sikh Temple, 46 Clifton Street, Exeter, Devon.

20 years on and we (Sikhs) are still failing to produce high profile documentaries giving accounts of the activities of the 1980's. We are still failing to use the media tool and naively think a few cheaply produced youtube videos will produce the same impact. The documentary below is another addition to the large list that points the finger at the Sikh “extremists”. It’s time to collate some real evidence and not keep relying on Soft Target to bail us out every time a journalist or filmmaker links Sikhs to the airplane bombings. http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2008/may/21kanish.htm New film throws spotlight back on Kanishka bombing May 21, 2008 18:47 IST Sturla Gunnarsson's powerful film on the Kanishka bombing, Air India 182, premiered at the Hot Docs Festival recently. Vancouver-based Gunnarsson, who is originally from Iceland and whose wife is Punjabi, has put a number of members of the victims' families in front of the camera, sharing their pain and anguish with the viewers. They never got such a chance earlier, said Gunnarsson, who made the feature based on Rohinton Mistry's book Such a Long Journey, and whose films have won an Oscar nomination, Emmy, Genie and Gemini awards, a Prix Italia, and best film prizes at numerous festivals. Gunnarsson said he was able to gain 'unprecedented access' to people involved and to key investigators from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In Air India 182, he has used voice tapes of conversations between the Air India flight's cockpit and control towers in Toronto, Montreal and Shannon airport in Ireland. CSIS surveillance video tapes are used too, and it is shown how the surveillance at Babbar Khalsa leader Talwinder Singh Parmar's home was discontinued a couple of days before the Air India tragedy of June 23, 1985. That surveillance post, it is stated, was dismantled the moment then Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi returned to India after his visit to the United States. The American Federal Bureau of Investigation had shared with the Canadian law enforcement agencies intelligence that there could be an attempt on Gandhi's life by Sikh terrorists. The film shows how Liberal lawmaker Ujjal Dosanjh, who was at the time working as an attorney, was beaten up and left half-dead outside his law office for speaking up against Sikh extremism. He was in hospital for several weeks. "I took an interest in developments in the Sikh community in Vancouver even before the bombing," Gunnarsson said. "I saw the struggle for the control of the Sikh temple. I saw the importation of a foreign conflict on the Canadian soil. I was also shocked to see that people in the Sikh community in Vancouver -- in my opinion the so-called community leaders -- were all based in the temples. I didn't think they spoke for a majority of people that I knew. I thought it was unusual why people were being beaten up for no reason and nothing was being done about it. So, when the bombing happened, I was horrified, but I wasn't surprised. "The Canadian authorities," he continued, "were turning a blind eye to that [sikh extremism] because they didn't want to be accused of meddling in the internal affairs of the Sikh community." Why a film on Kanishka now? "Over the course of the 20 years of investigations, there were all kinds of conspiracy theories, rumours, there was a mountain of information -- but it was all kind of meaningless information. There was no clear narrative as to what actually happened," the filmmaker said, adding that the books that have been published on the tragedy 'are all in disagreement with one another.' "[When Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajaib Singh Bagri were acquitted] I thought this was really the time for me to make this film as all the information became available, all the information came in the public domain," he said. "I could access the CSIS intelligence report, I could access the wire-tap reports, the RCMP investigation reports, I could access the cockpit tapes. They all became public documents." So, Gunnarsson explained, it occurred to him he could "create a simple, clear narrative to what happened. That was really the objective for me to make this film: Who did it? To whom did they do it? How they got away with it?" He pointed to a criminal inquiry in the British Columbia Supreme Court where Judge Ian Josephson in his judgment concluded that the bombing was the result of a Vancouver-based conspiracy by the Babbar Khalsa. "It is on public record and beyond dispute now," Gunnarsson emphasised. Josephson clearly stated that Talwinder Singh Parmar was the leader of that conspiracy. And there's enough evidence on public record as to who were members of the Babbar Khalsa during that period, Gunnarsson explained. His film has Jack Hooper, deputy director of CSIS who spoke publicly about the tragedy for the first time, talking straight into the camera about the CSIS surveillance of Parmar's home, etc. The most touching narrative in the film is from Prakash Bedi, who lost his wife Saroj, son Jatin and daughter Anu in the tragedy. It took him two years and sessions with three counselors before he could enter their rooms, and finally found some peace. He weeps throughout his narrative. There were two objectives to make the film, explained Gunnarsson, who wrote, directed and co-produced (with David Cook) the film. "One was to make a clear narrative. And the other was in 20 years, I thought the victims became dehumanised. I thought after they lost their sense of individuality and who they were, they became kind of an amorphous mass of victims. I wanted to give them names, faces and voice," he said. The filmmaker said the Air India tragedy was "one of the major tragedies in modern Canadian history. This is not about South Asian history or Indo-Canadian history or Punjabi history. This was a significant moment in Canadian history. They were Canadians. This film is meant to take that story and put it right into the mainstream of Canadian narratives. "There was a great denial in the minds of the Canadian public on this issue," he continued. "Until 9/11, the Canadian public was not even willing to deal with the fact that terrorism is an issue that affects all of us. "There were a series of errors. The suitcase should never been inter-lined for Air India in Vancouver when there was no confirmed reservation for M Singh from Toronto to Delhi. That plane was allowed to take off without M Singh on board. It should never have taken off without that passenger on board. The suitcase in Toronto was put on board when the X-ray machine in Toronto had broken down. Air India chose to use handheld scanners -- PD-4 sniffers -- which the RCMP officer Gary Carlson told Judge [John] Major were useless. And he had many weeks prior to the Air India tragedy demonstrated to Air India they were useless. "In Montreal again," he continued, "the plane was allowed to take off without M Singh on board. The conspiracy was Vancouver-based, most of the victims were Canadian and it has profound implications about the way we think of ourselves and the society we live in," Gunnarsson lamented pointing out that sniffer dogs were not used to check the luggage. I hope this film goes some way toward distilling a very complex story and giving a voice to the Air India families, who are among the most gracious and dignified people I've met."

Call me a rebel or a bemukh but if the aim of the lyrics are to perform the mehma of Sri Akal Purakh, Sikhi, Khalsa, Amrit, GuruBani then personally I don’t see a big problem with it. Hasn't dharna brought many people into Sikhi? I know my parents were influenced into Sikhi Jeevan by dharna, the dholki and the high pitched white baja.

Maybe you have a point, help me with my blinders if you can... Surely if you can have an additional hall for something so significant as Anand Karaj, then you can also have in addition to a small langar hall, a Social Lunch Hall which can serve a different purpose. Which raises the question, what purpose of Anand Karaj does a "Wedding Hall" serve? Would it be OK to call it "Anand Karaj Hall"? I don't know the answers bro, just some thoughts. that's funny.... ma tha samajia thohadee position picky eh. :6 I agree with what buddasingh is saying. There's this uncomfortable culture growing in the Gurdwaras nowadays to produce an exceptional service for wedding facilities, it's almost making the Gurdwara's into a corporate venue which caters a separate function room solely for weddings only. When we have a langar hall which discriminates against no one regardless of class and creed, then why are we promoting the wedding guests into some fancier hall with supposedly more "superior" facilities? Think about it, is this really encouraging the real values of Guru Ji's Sikhi!

An observation! In a way I think we are collectively to blame for this. We need more examples of humble Gursikh weddings. When you members on this forum get married you guys need make examples and stand up to all the palaver and pakhand by having a Gursikh Anand Karaj. Too often (and I include myself in this category) we make all the bold panthic statements yet when it come to our own weddings or close family weddings we get involved in all the pakhand to please our own relatives. I have seen "kharkoo" Singhs and Singhni's sit on tables in the langar hall or put their shoes on in the langar because they haven't got the guts to make a Gursikh statement in front of their own family. In my opinion that's not the way forward! If we want to see these decorative tables & chairs come out of the langar hall then we need to be brave enough to sit on the floor in the middle of those tables in full view of everyone and eat Guru Ji's Langar in Pangat as it's meant to be.

Yep! This constant moaning and groaning only saps our strength and weakens our resolve. And if left to go unchecked, we will keep seeing a drop in our own morale and general outlook. Look forwards and not backwards!!!

Great work. Can the sangat provide some monetary contribution to this sewa? I think there's some long term benefits for the community from this TV slot.

I wonder if the adoption modern “sus–ee-kaal” greeting commonly used is a direct reflection of our distance from Rehat and adopting Khalsa Jeevan

Exactly how I see it too! When no one sticks their neck on the line then you know the intentions cannot have been truly “panthic”. There was no panthic motive behind the whole Vasakhi tamasha or the Smethwick takeover, the whole thing was one big battle of egos. Whoever really slashed Powar in the name of the “panth” should have come forward and given himself up in the name of the “panth”, like a true hero would. Then some of these innocent lads wouldn’t have had to go through this whole drama.

To be honest I am now beyond caring about the whole fiasco, it's like a plot to a zee tv drama serial. I can hear the over dramatic background music and can see the curling moustache over acted scenes!!

There are a lot of important things that affect us such as our collective lack of Gurbani, our collective lack of adopting the Khalsa jeevan, our collective lack of vichaar and parchaar. I’m sure if each person on this forum focused on just one of these things we could eradicate all our so-called problems. However, most of us race each other to focus on highlighting “the problem” yet don’t get down to the basics and eradicate the problem. Reading Gurbani, adopting Rehat, Naam Simran are not hippy actions, they complement all our other necessary actions and would make us invincible as a kaum.

http://www.redcross.org.uk/donatesection.asp?id=77029 https://support.actionaid.org.uk/store/chec...asp?prod_id=152 You can send monies through the above until the Sikh charities get themselves organised.