AK-47

Sangat Ji please donate as much as you can, as others have said, even if its what you might consider a small amount, it may make all the difference here. The Academy has done someone amazing work with the local community and children. For those who dont know much about that side of London, its not the best of areas for children as many groups make it hard for Sikhs to grow up with their Sikhi. This comes from gangs, islamic extremists etc, they all have strength their, if the Academy is doing the real sikhi parchar and keeping kids off these other paths then we should do what we can to help. The seva done there actually shows results. I dont mean to insult anyone, but often we do parchar and the only people benefitting are the people doing the parchar as they go home thinking job well done! The impact on the people listening may not be anywhere near as great as it has been on the parbandhaks (see any average gurdwara committee)! But here, the children show that the parchar is working, many of us have seen these kids doing dhadi varaan and kirtan at different gurdwaras around the country. But we also know that children's minds are fickle, if we take away the resources from them then the chances of them looking elsewhere for 'inspiration' is very likely. To prevent this, we have to do the best we can. I think the money problems have arisen from the banks demanding greater security on certain debts which a few years ago they were happy to fund without the need. I know that the sangat there has poured thousands of their kirt kamai into the academy and its only beacause they've been unable to provide the banks with the adequate secrities (hundreds of thousands of pounds in a current acc/ property to that value i would expect) that they have appealed to the wider sangat. Make no mistake, unless this money is raised, the bank will reclaim the property and sell it as soon as it can to recoup their cash. Its business for them. So please, do what you can. Also wanted to add that probs with getting off other gurdwara committee's are that they often feel that you then owe them a favour in the future! Others will feel that its their money, why should they give it to someone else, while some will think about the extra sangat and revenue that will come to them if a local 'rival' gurdwara closes. Its a sad state of affairs.

Hi Guys I know this doesn't sound like a Sikhi related topic, but hold on. Im interested in your views on the student protests in general and whether you feel they are justified in that the cost of education should/should not have gone up to £6k - £9k. Do you think the violence at the protests was neccesary both from the student perspective and the police perspective? The reason I ask is that on many occassions where Sikhs have protested against things which made us angry, we have almost automatically been labelled extremists, fanatics etc etc. If violence has occured then the press seems to start looking for 'so called links' to militant groups etc. What I found interesting was that some of the press said that the violence was because students were 'outraged and angry'. On the radio last night people spoke about how proud they were that students were taking a stand (violent!) etc. Press has spoke about the violence but that its small elements and anarchy groups etc. But is the language used the same as for other groups? Do you think that the press coverage towards non-religious and or non-white (majority of students will be white) is different to others and that the public perception follows suit? I personally believe that human rights and torture is worth getting more angry about then fees, yet if human rights protestors used violence, then it would never be justified as 'angry expression'. Also do you think the majority really care or is it just a bandwagon and a desire to have some involvement in politics while for others its just an excuse to fight against the cops? Just keen tp see how others are viewing this?

Hey guys Has anyone installed the punjabi keyboard on their iphone 4? I've managed to download it using the iKeyEx software and I can see it in the mix and match section of Ikey but i cant seem to be able to select it for use? Any clues?

Wow what a response to genuine concerns by people raised on this forum. In response to the above points, I would venture that most people do not go to Darbar Sahib to learn about Sikhi (in the way that most of us understand learning as), they go their to EXPERIENCE sikhi. The gurbani, the kirtan, the darshan of maharajh, the seva etc. The learning comes through the experience and participation, not through staring at some gigantic screen. You say first and foremost that it would benefit the local population. Please could you explain how?! How does installing 4 gigantic screens translating gurbani into english and other 'foreign' languages help the local sangat? The visitors and tourists are the people that these screens are aimed at. Because they have been useful in the west, we assume that they are needed and would be as useful everywhere else. And we all know what assumptions make ... As one of the other posters said, who cares about Obama?! Do we really think that he cares/would care (even if he was going!). These visits by big names, politicians, actors, etc its all done for publicity and to win favour. Please could you detail what approval process has the SGPC undertaken? If they actually have then it must have been the first time in at least the last few decades! Unfortunetly, I dont believe that a process was undertaken, more likely that the idea (and the fact that it would be self funded and that apparently all the western sikhs would love the sgpc for doing this) was introduced to one guy who then spoke to another guy, who then signed it off. With the rest of the guys not giving a hoot about what was happening, as long as their positions were safe. If sevadars have done 2 years of work for this, then well done. Unfortunetly, just becuase we put in effort, doesnt mean that we have to go with it. Sevadars should also have the humility to accept that if sangat is unhappy with the decision, that they shelve the idea of adjust it/discuss other options. I think the fact that you think the screens would not be used for other purposes shows a level of naievity. For example, at our local gurdwara we use the screens to congratulate people on vaisakhi and have rolling slide shows etc on gurpurbs to educate people. Im pretty sure that the same/similar would happen there, that on vaisakhi, you would have HUGE happy vaisakhi coming out of the screens. And knowing how punjab works, this happy vaisakhi sign would be endorsed by Mr Badal and family with their pictures along the bottom. There is nothing that anyone has that can guarantee that these screens will not be used in other ways. The loudspeaker example is silly and takes away from the topic at hand. The fact that you say that these sevadars installed these other screens in places, 'whether they wanted them or not' shows a degree of stubborness. Although the result may have been good, again it doesnt automatically mean that the same is needed at Darbar Sahib!! You say that the screens influenced one person, I would say that they have probably helped a lot of people, BUT I would 100% believe that doing darshan of Sri Harimandir Sahib, sitting on the parkarma, listening, cleaning the batteh, washing the parkarima, just standing there... WITHOUT HAVING TRANSLATIONS will have gotten A LOT more people into Sikhi. You say that Sikhs will learn from this .. which Sikhs? Are we talking about ourselves again, when we go as visitors for 30 mins, or maybe even stay a few days? Is all this being done for our benefit?! Also your comment " Why do we have to attack everything good that others do? While doing nothing good ourselves?" is very interesting. To start with, we here are speaking against something which WE view as bad and not good. It is called having a disagreement, and we are having a discussion, which is something the sevadars probably should have had with the wider sangat before doing what the SGPC does all the time, do what it likes, when it likes. Secondly you ASSUME that those who are against this idea, DO NOTHING GOOD THEMSELVES?! Maybe you might want to take a step of that high horse my brother. For all we know the people who are against this do fantastic seva, some gupt, some openly, some may help one or two people, others may help thousands, lets not jump to that tragic conclusion that just because someone is against our fantastic idea, that they must be going agianst 'good' and that they are lazy good for nothings that sit around doing nothing but complaining!! Your later comments about how the heritage there has already been changed may be correct, but it doesnt mean that we go on loosing more and more. We have to draw a line somewhere. You say that these objections are unfounded, yet there is nothing to support your view that these screens are a good idea. All we have seen is a request for cash! Please can you provide some evidence of appropriate thought processes, analysis, discussion, heritage and conservation considerations, health and safety concerns, project plans, etc etc etc. Has anyone heard any feedback from the Canadian guys? Are they aware that smaller/more discreet screens are already placed around the parkarima? (according to the report put up by a singh in this thread?) Ps has anybody ever been using STTM or other versions and ... perhaps you cant find the shabad ... or the programme has frozen ... or an internal bug messes up the font ... or had one of a number of other random problems? Anybody struggled to keep up with kirtanis that use lines from different shabads as parmaan's to the main shabad resulting in finding the new shabad on STTM by the time kirtani has finished and returned to the main shabad ... im trying to imagine the fun this would cause on giant screens around the parkarima.

It seems like most of the people reading this thread agree that Sri Darbar Sahib should not have these screens placed around the parkarma. If needed they can be placed outside or at other places but NOT where they have been suggested. From the original post it seems that the Toronto organisation has already had discussions with the sgpc who have given the go ahead for this project. Is there anyone who either lives in Toronto or who knows the people behind this project that would be able to discuss this with them? Based on just a few opinions here it seems that most are not in favour and would at least like the issue debated rather than being thrust upon us. So can we somehow please arrange for a hold on the project under due consultation has taken place. Is there anybody who can make sure this happens? Equally in India if anyone knows the sgpc people, can they speak to them and make sure that discussions are had on wider basis rather than behind doors when the first we hear of it is "we need some money ...". Also people have been mentioning the heritage lady, can whoever knows her let her know and try and get such people involved. Again just to reiterate the feelings of everyone here it seems, this would be very very sad for this to happen. And for a FACT it would only be so long before politicians and groups realised the potency of the screens and started whacking names all over them, pictures etc etc just like you see all over Amritsar city. Please leave Harimandir Sahib as it is. Ps the apple store comment was very funny but also very true!

Whoa, before doing this please try and consult other sikhs around the globe. Personally I think they look terrible. Place them outside somewhere if you want, but I dont think they need to be put around the parikarma like that! Modernisation is not always a good thing. A few of the reasons that I would put forward to NOT installing these screens are as follows; Harimandir Sahib is a place of heritage, beauty, simplicity etc, great big screens would take away from the beauty of the complex. Which translations would you use? There are many many debates about what certain shabads in Guru Granth Sahib Ji mean, which is also partly why I understand Katha is not done from within Sri Harimandir Sahib itself. Giani Avtar Singh Ji Badnikala said that the sangat made a decision that since different vidvaans and kathakas have different understandings of shabads, that only nirolh kirtan and gurbani would come from harimandir sahib. Katha is therfore done at manji sahib and not at darbar sahib. I would think that the same should apply for these type of translations, keep them at manji sahib, or outside etc, but not around the parkarma of darbar sahib. It also encourages us to be even lazier in understanding gurbani. People will argue that translations have helped them and encouraged them etc that is fine, but there is a time and place. And when standing on the parkarma the heart should aspire to understand the shabad through abhiyaas, khoj, gurmat veechar and guru sahibs , not to just turn and face a screen. Im sure there are reasons why you may think that these screens should go up, but please share these reasons and have an open discussion with the wider sangat. As I said my own personal view without hearing your reasons why they should be put up, is to say no please dont do it and that hopefully the heritage people will prevent this.

yeh the swami was confused, he said sanjay, but the singhs knew he meant rajiv. Also the asian games tha the singhs were referring to took place in 1982. so had to take place after this.

These videos have made my month!!!! Sant Ji is just so amazing! The bit at around 7 mins on the 7th video, where the swami says that if sant ji had seen the 1947 riots he would have cried ... the singh straight away says "Sant Ji is not in the habit of crying" !! Sant Ji then goes on to say that even if you were to chop off our heads, we wouldnt cry, if you skinned us we wouldnt cry, etc etc, he says its you other people who are in the habit of crying! The swami presses by saying not even if a child was bein drowned? Sant ji says if i saw that i wouldnt stand there crying id pull him out. Swami again says that sant cant be everywhere and cant always save everyone. sant ji says that if his arms were tied and he was powerless to help then he would accept the will of god and still not cry, but if his arms were open then he would deal death to the person drowing the child!! what is the point in crying? at 9.50 the swami mentions mohand das gandhi (aka ma hat ma gandhi) and sant ji says, 'oh shad pareh, eh mahatma gandhi nu lei ferda" And this is further evidence that Sant Ji and the singhs were not just hot headed villagers, but educated and calm, level headed people who knew how to discuss and debate. I love the way that Sant Ji had to keep telling the swammi to have respect and to listen to other peoples views!! he had to teach the swami how to have a discussion lol i loved it!

Im sorry but I totally disagree. Are we really to accept that the people who didnt rise up and fight ... despite sri akal takhat being blown to peices, despite children having heads smashed in by indian soldiers, despite having guru granth sahib ji shot and urinated upon, despite sikh women being gang raped for over 3 days in delhi, despite seeing their sikh brothers and fathers being forcibly shaved, despite their sisters being forced to drink a police mans urine, despite seeing the desecration of 40 gurdwaras in june and hundreds more in november, despite seeing hundreds of thousands of sikhs being killed across punjab, despite hearing the screams of tortured singhs and singhnia in prisons, despite seeing our little baby sisters Satnam Kaur and Vaheguru Kaur jump onto tanks with grenades to blow them up ... despite all of this happening, that IF and only IF sant jarnail singh ji had been declared shaheed THEN they would have fought? i really really dont think so. If that is the case for a few people, then they should feel some sort of sharam for using this as an excuse for why they didnt stand. Are we meant to be sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib Ji or of Sant Jarnail Singh Ji? As sikhs of the Guru, our pyaar and anakh is connected to the Guru. If on seeing the beadbi done to guru sahib our anakh doesnt wake up, then no matter how inspirational a person is, it wont make any difference. This talk is just talk brother and excuses made by people. If despite all the above, they (including us) didnt/havent stepped up and fought back... then NOTHING will make them stand and fight. If seeing all that does not awaken their anakh, then nothing would have. Can we imagine a person who tries using this as an excuse for not standing up saying this to the face of one of the delhi sikh widows (the ones that say they want nothing but justice)? Could anyone really stand there and say, 'I would have done something to get revenge for your honour and the murder of your family, but Sant Ji was not declared shaheed and therefore i lost my own honour and anakh and couldnt do anything'. Of course not, because it would be ridiculous. The truth would be that our own lives are to important to us, but were embarassed to admit that so need an excuse to get out of the shame. The movement stalled because of many other things including, police using torture and inhumane methods of policing, laws changed to make it legal to murder sikhs, rape used as a weapon to stop people joining the singhs, brainwashing and media, infiltrators and cats, the world looking the other way, undercover agencies acting dressing up as sikhs and committing crimes to turn public away from the movement, and unfortunetly in fighting amongst the singhs (not about sant jis shaheedi but over power, control, paranoia, personal vendetta's, chinese whispers etc etc). These are the real things which led to the movement slowing down. As for today, if you find your inspiration and your desire to stand up and fight for the panth comes from Sant Jarnail Singh Ji's shaheedi, then fantastic. We need people to make a difference and do something. But at the same time, others will get their inspiration from Sant Jarnail Singh Ji's life and teachings, again fantastic and we need them to do their bit for the panth. We also get those brothers who think Sant Jarnail Singh Ji made great mistakes and wasnt even a Saint at all, ... but some of these brothers will still stand and fight for the panth because they look at what our people have gone through and cant just sit there and do nothing. Either way, no matter how we are inspired, we need to try and work together, like the singhs on the front line of the fight for khalistan did. If we carry on as we are, then we will just waste our lives in talking.

Dont you get bored of beating the same drum? Please explain how if sant had been declared shaheed india would have been turned upside down?? Is Sant Jis Shaheedi more important that the destruction of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib, the burning and sacrilige done to thousands of Guru Granth Sahib Jis saroops, the murder, torture and rape of thousands and thousands of sikh men and women and children across india?! If ALLL of this happened and india STILL WAS NOT successfully turned upside down, how would the decleration of sant being shaheed have done it?! Its a shameful thing to suggest that the martrydom of one individual is more powerful and important than all the rest of the destruction and genocide that the sikhs went through. It really saddens me to hear these kind of things. It does not matter and did not matter whether sant was declared shaheed or not, the people who actually truelly cared for the panth (rather then just pointing fingers and arguing) carried on with their seva for the panth. The sarkar built takhat was still pulled down and rebuilt, sarbat khalsa for declaration of khalistan was still done, kcf and other groups for creation of khalistan were still created, a 5 member leadership to guide the panth was created (as it should be, by 5 singhs - not one, even if that was sant jarnail singh ji), these men were deemed to be the best to lead the panth. Thousands upon thousands of singhs took up arms and organised themselves to fight against the forces of india. Tell me what difference would it have made to their sacrifice and their fight if sant had been declared shaheed? nothing - they actullay fought the fight! Lets take Mahan Shaheeds Sukha and Jinda. They had their views on sant ji, but did they sit back? Nope - they did amazing seva for the panth and something that vast majority of us couldnt even dream about. So how did sants shaheedi declaration effect them? IT DIDNT, because they knew what they had to do for the panth and did it. If we had seen that NOBODY had bothered doing anything because they were all waiting for sant, then your comments may have had some sense. But the facts are that the movement carried on, just the same whether people thought he was alive or not. Since he has been declared shaheed, what exactly has changed? Have people who were previously in retirement suddenly jumped up and started doing something now? No. Because those that care for the panth, live and work for the panth. An example would be in the UK, iv said before as well, that majority of the youth 1984 talks and cd's, posters information and awareness, protest arrangements since 84 have been done by a mix of people some of who think hes alive, and some who think hes shaheed. Its never been an issue, its quite funny that even today a lot of the people making fuss where educated on 84 by the same people they now insult! Honestly brothers, just think about what your going on about. Would people like Baba Manochal, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Manvir Singh Chaheru, Bhai Dilawar singh etc etc have acted any differently if an annoucement had been made? Would they have fought harder? They couldnt possibly have done more than what they did - lay down their lives, so that one day we and others can argue and argue while not actually doing what needs to be done. And final benti, people use the phrase 'coward in pakistan' - suggesting that those who belive in him being alive are degrading him to this level. Please again think first about what you are saying. There are numerous examples throughout history which could be citied, but to keep this short, all i'll say is .. if living in pakistan would have made sant a coward, the what do we say to all those that left the war in punjab and now live in pakistan (bhai wadawa singh etc), those living in canada and america, those across europe and those in the uk, london etc etc. Are they also cowards for leaving punjab? Its easy to point fingers but hard to take fingers being pointed back. Lets stop this ridiculous arguements and work for the panth. Oh and please run spell/grammer checks on the flyers, the spelling in the one that was posted was terrible.

Its good to see more programs about singhs who have stood up for the panth and particularly where the message of sant jarnail singh ji is explained to the sangat, in particular the youngsters, who while have a lot of sharda, dont fully understand the message as sometimes they dont understand punjabi and cant comprehend what sant ji is saying. Benti to people who made the above video, its good to do translations, but try and keep it to what sant ji is saying. Sant Ji was very very very intelligent in the way he spoke and was very respectful, even when being harsh. When doing translations, lets be careful not to use terms that make him out to be 'one of us today'. For example, 'big up' when talking about praising baba nihal singh ji. Its a minor thing, but the translations would be better if the equivalent language was used. Regards to the shaheedi / non shaheedi thing, as discussed on millions of occasions, each person can have his own view, but lets keep it respectful. Everyone loves Sant Jarnail Singh Ji and that the main point. The people disrespecting Sant Ji are not those who call him shaheed, or those that dont call him shaheed, its the ones who call him a govt agent, the ones that call him a hindu, a terrorist etc etc. Across the world parchar about what Sant Ji taught and stood for has been done by both sides of the same coin, and excellent parchar at that! This needs to continue and not turn into singhs who believe and want the same thing fighting against each other. Benti to organisers, make sure that no nindiya of Sant Baba Takhar Singh Ji is done, many people disagree with Baba Ji's stance and thats fine. But there is a way of disagreeing, respectfully. Despite disagreements on this issue, there is no denying the role Baba Ji had in organising the 1986 sarbat khalsa and rebuiliding of the akal takhat, supporting kaharku singhs and their families and in particular the close relationship they had with Mahaan Shaheeds Sukha and Jinda right up to their very shaheedi in which they wore the choleh and dastara sent by Baba Takhar Singh Ji, supporting singhs to do parchar about sant jis teaching across the world (thats from personal experience as well), and most fundamentally teaching the gursikh way of life. So disagree with a point if you like, but lets not forget everything else as well , things which we ALL respect. A small does of respect goes a long way. Other then that, the more parchar of what sant ji said and did the better. What I found recently in Panjab was that although people know his face, they have no/little idea about his message as most punjabis i met had never even heard his voice, never mind any of his speeches.

good stuff is that going on sikh channel by any chance? Try and get the sevadars to stick it up on there? And are you guys going to be recording baba tirlok singhs katha during the week? Going to be busy in evenings but would be great to hear it online if possible? And are any other guys having similar progs over in the US or canada?

Who says politics is boring?! Check out this BNP guy campaigning in an area and 3 "ASIAN" (in aall bbc reports this can be read as = pakistani/muslim) try starting something and get whooped! I know I shouldnt laugh, but seeing an overweight politician smacking a young guy up in the street does make me chuckle a little bit! BNP street fight

The PR company idea would be ideal. Each country has different reactions and experiences to different groups of people and therefore a Sikh Canadian PR exercise will give diff results to a UK one. I thought there was a Canadian Sikh Organisation or something similar, would they not put the money needed into this? On the news panel on the side someone has collected a number of racist and death threats against the sikhs in canada. Asking for them to be shot, run over, murdered, deported etc. Threats to Sikhs in Canada I think this exercise needs to be expanded to include all of the other comments made against the Sikhs as well. Please can the technical know how guys ensure that even if the comments are removed from the threads/news boards that records are still kept. This thing needs to be developed and then published across the public with a direct comparison of the RCMP investigations into threats against one person. If possible any threats naming individual sikhs ie leaders of the gurdwaras etc need to be found. Once found the person named should contact the RCMP and request protection and full investigation as his/her life is being threatened. If they want to play the game, then we should play the same game, their rules! Quite a few people have told me that the Sikhs in Can are viewed the same as the muslims are in the UK. If that is the case then perhaps they can learn from how the muslims here have played the game. Think of the term 'islamaphobic'. Where are criticisim of islam was labelled as islamaphobic, the muslims kept records of islamic hate crimes to include damage to persons and buildinds, comments made by politicians and members of the public, things from the press etc. They painted themselves as the victim who were being attacked from all quarters. The Canadian Sikhs can perhaps take a leaf from this book and actually document what they are experienceing and at the same time show what they have contributed and what the sikh religion teaches.

As an outsider to Canadian politics, it all seems incredibly childish and pathetic. Any and every excuse seems to be used to malign the Sikh community there. And talk of multiculturism seems limited to those who whilst may look different are requried to think and act in exactly the same way as the white canadians. Its a joke. The recent police and government investigations into a FACEBOOK page (LOL!!!) are just tooo ridiculous to believe!! On one hand you have actual islamic terrorists planning and preparing to blow up places across the country and yet the police seem to think that some kids on facebook are the real threat! This is all classic divide and conquer politics. These stup1d games and publicity stunts are being used to make average sikhs (who may have little understanding of the faith and politics behind whats happening) turn against those who are taking a stance against this kind of rubbish. If sikhs do peacful protests against a human rights abuser, that causes a problem for the canadian press and people. If Sikhs use their democratic right to call a Dosanjh a traitor, that causes a problem. Despite the courts finding the men accussed of the Air India bombing not guilty ... the press still blames the Sikhs!?! What the heck is going on!? Im not sure if the Sikhs in Canada have their own political candidate that they can stand behind, but maybe its time they did. In the UK one chap called George Galloway took the plight of the Muslims to heart and created his own political party. We may agree or disagree with their stances and policies but they have been effective in getting their people elected and giving themselves an official voice. Can the Canadian Sikhs in Toronto and Vancouver not get together and create their own party and candidates? It doesnt matter if they dont get elected, it would at least give an official voice to combat the rubbish being spoken as at present. Also have those that have been following these events closely been keeping a record of all the racism and threats made against the Sikhs by the public on the news forums etc. It might be an idea to collect these and file them with the RCMP as evidence of threats against canadian citizens and ask them to investigate these in exactlly the same way as they are doing for dosanjh. Sorry if the above is wrong.

I dont think GPS or anyone else has any issues with Bhai Gajinder Singh. However, Bhai Gajinder Singh is one man who did a huge thing and is well respected for that, but that doesnt mean that everyone under his banner is like him or thinks along the same lines. In the 80's and 90's just about any group which spoke in favour of the Sikhs was banned, so that in itself isn't a mark of achievement. To be honest, after Gajinder Singh, i'm not actually 100% what the group has done? Other groups such as Babbars, KCF, KLF, BTFK, AISSF etc have clear physical actions that you can document, eg dushts that they dealt with etc. But as i mentioned, i cant recall (from the top of my head at least) any actions that the Dal khalsa conducted. This is not to say that they havent done anything, just that I personally cant recall anything. Unfortunetly in recent months the organisation has however really shot itself in the foot by showing support for Ragi Darshan who openly insults Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani's, including the 5 nitnem banis. I read somewhere that one of the main leaders in india went to a hotel lunch party with darshan despite the akal thakat hukumnama. This isnt a political thing, as in politics people can argue both sides of an issues, this is a very clear religious issue, and no sikh should ever support anyone speaking against gurbani. So on a purely dharmic and sikhi level, the dal khalsa has caused itself significant damage by following this line. If people here have any influence over the leadership of the dal khalsa, please try and guide them back to the path of gurmat. Without Gurbani and faith in Gurbani we wont be able to achieve anything - no matter how many statements we make etc. Standing in favour of Darshan Ragi means standing against Guru Sahib Ji and his beloved sikh, Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. reagarding the news article, many people on these lists have little or no involvement with the struggle and dont want to either. That is their own choice and we cant insist that people follow a path they may have walked many years ago. Having not gone through what they have I dont think we can understand their views. Saying that it was a huge shock when zaffarwal gave himself up. You would hope that the 'leadership' at least would stick to their stance. But for many, they see the movement as virtually finished and want to go back to their familes etc. I think that Mayor Bal came off the list as well recently? Its their choice, but it does mean a loss of credibility to those that remain committed to the cause of freedom. Bhul chuk maaf.

Hmmm im not sure about your sources ... from my albeit limited understanding, the Nirmala's accept that Guru Gobind Singh Ji had 3 different mehals. But the blog u have posted which is meant to represent nirmala thinking goes down the '2 names for one person' route. I havent heard that from any of the old samparda's before. All the older groups accept that maahrajh had 3 mehals. Please can you clarify.

The point im making is that this whole "90%" thing is made up. Its a figment of your imagination, ie you yourself are blowing things out of proportion. There are a handful of differences between singhs, and while these may get the most attention, they do not constitute 90%. The basics of any group are reading gurbani, naam simran, seva, keeping rehat etc. A few differences between these points and arguing over these few points cannot be said to be against a group 90% of the time! Its ridiculous! The comments regarding the singhs accepting dasam bani as gurbani and thus following in the steps of the 'real jatha' is a clarification of what the akj stands for - ie the group has had this belief from day one. If a branch of the AKJ started saying that kes is a kakkar rather then keski, then they could not be considered true members of the jatha as this would be going against what the jatha stands for. Similarly rejecting dasam bani - means breaking away from the groups original set of beliefs. It doesnt matter what the personal beliefs of the person making this observation are, the observation is for members of the group and based on the principles of the group. It would only be a contradiction, if the person also claimed to be a member of this group as well. Rather then blowing things up and making mountains out of non-existent mole hills, it might be more beneficial to note that in this thread singhs of different backgrounds are sharing common ground and saying job well done with pyar. While there still might be slight difference in veechar, for the majority of the discussion, most would agree that it was well done. But rather then do that, you seem happier making up fake statistics and feeling good about your own prejudice. Well done.

You need your brain tested. Singhs from different backgrounds would agree on 90% of priciples and disagree on 10%. It is this mentality of yours which will drive different people to totally seclude themselves from others. Maybe thats what you really want.

How on earth is he subty trying to start an arguement? What he has said is correct, as many of the local young singhs associated with the akj have themselves said that they dont know a great deal about dasam granth and were unable to comment on the issue. I thought the videos were brilliant and would recommend everyone to watch them. And again i repeat the words of k_zindabad, if you consider yourself a member of the akj, then please also listen to these videos as they are from singhs from within the jatha who have done some amazing veechar and this stuff needs to be learnt. I also feel that the singhs did something i wouldnt have been able to do (apart from the amazing veechar - and that is keep calm, so respect for that as well! These videos are a great contribution to that effort. Another thing to note is that sometimes we hear that we shouldnt read anything other then gurbani, but it was through reading the extra pothia and religious texts that Sukhbir Singh was able to debate and refute the false claims of that anti sikh paagal. GPS - yes, if singhs could have answers to the typical questions that people raise then that would be great. Similar to what some of the dasam granth websites have done, but in video format with all the extra quotes and evidence, big seva, but someone smart enough needs to do it! im not sure if it was the same guy, he didnt have a farla, but the whole show was a bit odd. gps - ur right, it is the same voice! On the show he just didnt want to talk about it, even in the audio u provided, u can just hear him saying, 'lets not go there'. He seems to be tryin go to keep the peace. But as a nihang singh, you'd hope and expect a stronger stance. Maybe he's just trying to stop arguments getting worse? who knows.

Fantastic!! I have watched most of the videos and was really really impressed with the way Sukhbir Singh Ji spoke and handled himself. His knowledge was brill and I liked the little digs he gave now and then as well lol they were needed!! (i bet he the singhs felt like punchin the fool at some points, especially when he was swearing!) Fantastic work again and well done to the singhs, benti can they make videos where they answer all the questions these jokers are putting forward against Dasam Granth Sahib Ji? On the other hand, was watching Sikh Channel evening discussion and was very dissapointed that the nihang singh, pyara singh i think they said his name was, wouldnt openly condemn prof darshan and his attempts to insult nitnem and dasam bani. To see a nihang in full bana being political and not openly doing vichaar even when constantly being asked to by the presenter was sad to see. We should not be afraid for whatever reason to stand up for nitnem banis!! Well done again to the singhs in these videos, maharajh kirpa karan.

This unfortunetly affects many more people then actually speak out about it, not just in our community but in all, and not just against young girls but boys as well. If the sister needs support then direct her to a local rape/abuse clinic phone service. They will be professional and trained and will know the best way to speal to her. If we (without having the training but trying to do our percieved best) ask questions e.g. what happened etc, we run the risk of reminding the person of everything they went through, this may destroy any defence mechanism they had developed to cope with the memory. If we do this and then dont know how to fully support after .. then we do more harm then good. The professionals should be discreet and understand cultural sensitivities and not wanting to involve the police. Most victimes of child abuse and rape probably feel the same way, they just want a way to peacefully carry on with their lives. Whatever you do, do not pressure her to do or say anything. If you are a male trying to help, she may even fear you a little if you get too close, so be careful and keep the amount of space that she is comfortable with. Read Gurbani, (chaupai sahib) encourage her to do the same and read history of great sikh men and women. When you loose faith in mankind/people you need to be reminded that not all are the same. Her future husband could well be one of the good guys. Her pain and distress need to be transferred into strength. The fact that she has got to this point in life is testament to the strength she already has, and there is nothing wrong with having doubts and fears, just need to control them. Regarding the feeling dirty, that is something the professionals will deal with better as this would be a common feeling amongst people who have been through this. As far as Sikhi is concerned, the dirt is in the actions of the perpertrator and not the person who was abused. She doesnt need to tell anyone, they dont need to know. Not because of embarassment, but because it is non of their business. We all keep our private life private. Read gurbani and try and do seva with other bibia, eg langar making seva etc. Keep sangat with older women rather then the younger ones if that is more comfortable. Above all refuse to let the evil person who did this still run her life. Her strength will be demonstrated by breaking free of his hold which he has even to this day. Read read and read gurbani. sorry forgot to mention, dont make any promises you may not be able to keep, eg 'im gona kill the guy that did this'. Imagine the extra stress this puts on the person, she may feel its her fault that someone gets killed/you get in trouble etc. And then if you dont do what you said, she may feel that you cant be trusted. Remember this is about her, not you. So despite what you feel, you need to put her first. May maharajh bless her.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh Ekta is a word which along with panthic is thrown around a lot. I say this with no disrespect to those who are arranging kirtan programmes and inviting people from different groups or people doing other similar events, but I feel this needs to be said. On a completely results only basis, how much do these events actually help? Do they actually create unity, or just highlight the fact that despite us looking the same, there are jathebandia differences between us? Having attended and seen these events over the last few years, if im honest I dont think there was much ekta created. This may just be my own personal opinion, but thats my honest observation. People turn up, listen to/do kirtan and go home. If you asked most of the kirtanis to attend any event organised by anyone, they would probably still attend. So calling different ones to one programe, doesnt mean a great deal. The kirtanis very very rarely represent their 'group' they just happen to be associated from one rather than another and have little influence over people (sad but true). People also feel that they need to turn up, as if they dont, they will be seen as anti panthic/anti ekta but they dont really want to. Again, not nice, but its the truth. The people who have influence, or who make decisions regarding jathebandia are the ones that need to be doing something to create unity. Yet these people will rarely meet. Going to a 'sanjha samgam' and then going home and still cussing each other achieves nothing. And as I said, on a results basis, I see no increase in the levels of unity over the last few years. If anything things have got worse and worse. Creating unity will not be done by organising kirtan darbars, sorry to say. If people use the example of Sant Kartar Singh Ji and the AKJ doing progs together then we need to stop and see what these events where. They were an EXPRESSION of solidarity, an EXPRESSION of unity, an EXAMPLE of brotherhood. I do not believe that they were to create unity, i belive that unity was already there. To create unity means having difficult conversations and coming to agreements over disagreeing over certain issues and agreeing on others. It means accepting differences and possibly finding ways around them, or even ignoring them for the beneift of the 'panth'. These extremely difficult conversations and then the even harder job of encouraging others to follow the decisions is perhaps a better way to create unity. Sometimes we think that a common enemy will unite us against him. But history past and present shows us that this is also not true. We will still align ourselves with our groups and malign others whilst trying to claim ownership over any successful actions. Creating unity in a people is one of the greatest challenges of mankind. Whether it be in issues of faith (look at how often other religious groups have splits and dont get along), or issues of nationhood (look at the countries we live in, there are people who dont get along, and hate each other, different political parties, diff pressure groups, etc), even families are not united. Unity seems to be a temporary thing usually in the face of adversity, eg unity (to an extent under Sant Ji), unity under Nelson Mandela, unity under Ghenghis Khan even! Once the issue/problem is dealt with, disunity kicks in again. Sorry once again if this sounds pessimistic and I assure you the purpose is not to say sanjha smagams etc are pointless, but rather to stress that I dont think it is enough to think these will create unity. Recent events have reallly strained things and a kirtan darbar will not solve things. Honest, open, productive, genuine, conversations and dialogue with humility will. But again the pessimist within me doesnt think that will happen any time soon. Ekta is a dream that is a long way off, for now get as much laha from gurbani and kirtan and do ardas if you want, unity wont happen until and if maharajh wants it to. Sometimes those shouting the loudest for ekta and unity are the ones whispering the quietest about how other groups/jathe are wrong for various reasons.

You asked for a definition from Gurbani itself ... and then in your own definition made up your own sentances. You tell us what the definition of gurbani is, using gurbani. This is the new argument being used to say that certain Gurbani within Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, is not Gurbani but is 'literature' which was being used by people like Darshan a few years ago. I think we need to stop and remember that Sharda in Sikhi goes a long way. A life spent in sharda is better then a life spent questioning, arguing, fighting about whether Gurbani is Gurbani or not (especially if you get it wrong!!) Id rather do ardas and say Maharajh I dont know anything about Gurbani to be able to say that this or that isnt written by you, so ill just do satkar as best I can, if im wrong then forgive me. For me this is better then saying, no no no this aint, that aint. Maharajh do kirpa.

That video had me chuckling on some many different accounts!! They comparing sant jis quotes with darshan lal's LOL!!!! Kithe Panth da sher Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwala and kiteh <banned word filter activated> darshan lal who cant make up his mind on whether amrit is needed, panj bania is needed, whether he actually did all that dasam kirtan allll those years ago!! The funniest thing is that Sant Ji did daily parkash of Dasam Granth at Mehta!!!! And these fools using his name to fight their position!! I mean how sersiouly stuuuupid can you get!! They saying how they gona apparently deal with lamba, harnam singh, etc etc lol ok then, End of the day nobody is forcing dasam granth sahib ji on anyone, if you want to ignore you can, if you want to learn you can. But if anybody even dares to try and remove dasam granth sahib ji physically then im sure singhs will have suitable jawab for them. Also very very sad to see on another thread that a few people from a few known organisations have sided with darshan lal. Their respective groups in india and abroad need to make clear their own stance on this issue now as confusion has been spread. Either they stand with darshan and his anti-dasam and anti-nitnem, anti-sant jarnail singh ji views, or they dont. Finally can people who are savy and know how to make all of these videos make some stating clearly that Sant Ji was in total support of Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the GURU of the Sikhs, but had full respect and did parkash and believed in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji at Mehta Chowk headquarters, please? Counter the parchar by doing your own parchar.