AK-47

That really really is shocking. People need to be held accountable for things like this. Maybe Sarna needs to be summoned and answer a few questions as well .

The book looks very good and bright which is good for kids. One benti is that if you print some more, or create more in the future, please dont have gurbani in the book, (the image with vaheguru written in the background). Reason being that most of the kids I have seen that use these kind of books like doing their colouring on the floor or leave things lying around, they are kids after all! And its not nice having gurbani written on things like that. So benti please try and find some way around writing gurbani. I know some people wouldnt even write vaheguru in english, while others are ok with this. But either way please try not to use the gurmukhi gurbani shabads.

In this weeks Economist there is a full page spread of a young nihang singh standing on top of 2 horses and riding them at full speed!! Its titled 'A fine Balance' and is being used by www.incredibleindia.org to advertise their tourism stuff. They also have a half page colour advert of the same singh picture in this weekends FT (Financial Times)!! I dont have a scanner to share it, but its nice to see singhs in these magazines/papers as these are read by some of the top-bods. On the other side, kinda odd that India tourism is using pics of singhs after all of our trouble with each other.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh Would like to say that the Sikh Channel has done some very good programmes recently. Being someone who had some genuine doubts at the outset, i think the people there have done some great work, in particular, the programmes/discussions on; The sikh story - response to Sonia documentary The calendar issue and dasam granth discussion The bodyguard of fake dehdhari interview Tonights show on Shaheed Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra was fantastic The other show tonight on fake ragi darshan was also very very well presented, good to see people with knowledge of the topic and with ability to speak well. Few requests, if possible play the full jaswant singh khalra video again prime time without making his image small. Play his full image as even his body language speaks volumes. Also please try and get someone to do something with the Khalsa Aid people in Haiti, whether footage is recorded, sent over and played etc, please do this as the sikhs need to see what our brothers are doing out there and support them. But again well done, we have to give credit where it is due.

lol spot on!

Some lovely work there brother. Throughout Sikh history there have been people who have done seva of very small and simple things and very large and expensive things. Just because something is cheap doesnt make it good, and just because something is expensive doesnt make it bad, and vice versa. The Guru sahibs accepted seva of all types from all people. If a poor man gives 5p cus thats all he has, then its the same as a rich man cleaning out his bank account. Neither is better or worse then the other, just different as according to the karam maharajh set out for them (in regards to wordly wealth). When looking at history we remember the stories about how maharajh accepted small offerings, but also remember how maahrajh was given amazing horses (which when stolen he sent bhai biddhi chand ji to recover), the weapons, elephants, guns, chandoas etc given to guru gobind singh ji maharajh as well etc. Dont look at the price tag, thats up to each person for themselves, dont look at each other, we all have our seperate karam, just do what is right for your guru. Sometime maahrajh dressed as emporers, others times as simple faqirs, its maharajh maojh, they do as they please!

I remember when I was first getting into Sikhi I saw all these arguements about raagmalla and I didnt have the faintest idea about what this was. I asked the son of Bhai Rajinder Singh Ji (in the pictures with Baba Takhar Singh Ji), who told me very simply, 'You dont need to wory about that, learn the basics first, dont get into these debates'. Many many years on now, i look back and smile and see the son of a gursikh who was respected and had respect for other gursikhs across the world. The wisdom found in a 17 year old is today missing in 70 year olds! Ekta today is a fading old dream, this last weekend has knocked that dream backwards by many many years. So many people are upset and angry about what happened and have become very polarised. Its probably best to focus on your own bhagti now, if maharajh wants ekta he can give it. For now, it aint happening, not with the UK guys at least, and thats being realistic rather than being opptimistic. But maharajh can do kirpa in a split second, so who knows

I met a Singh earlier today who said that he had recorded the broadcast of the nindiya on his sky box. I'll see if he can get a copy to you. Unfortunetly there were no recordings of the anti-baba ji/dasam granth meeting that took place behind closed doors at the sikh channel, in which the sikh channel actually TRIED to spread pyar and understanding .. but alas. But a lot of what you will hear from the cov programe speaks volumes about what certain leaders think of pyar between singhs today and the future of the panth. Maharajh kirpa karan. Also, Matheen brother, it may just be my computer, but everytime you post there is a hugeeee empty space under what you type ... might just be me who sees it though! AND .. because this topic will cause everyone to read this thread .. there is going to be a raag darbar this weekend in West Bromwich, Birmingham, please make sure you all attend and enjoy kirtan in the most amazing style as maharajh ordered!

Some of those pics are from his own website as well, but ur right they are shocking! That pic he has of a 'nihang' a muslim and hindu standing together is all propoganda, for all we know they were his own men dressed up. But a lot of pagh wale do seem to be in his clutches. Mashed up. Do you have the sikh channel interview with that ex body guard of sirsa fool? Not sure if anyone has uploaded it anywhere yet?

Well done to the akj, dal khalsa etc for cussing dasam granth and baba ji and taksal live on punjab radio. Lol this will prob start to violence and open war. well <banned word filter activated> done to panthic singhs!!

Good replies I remember as a kid and a teenager, that a Panthic person or group was someone who supported the notion of Khalistan. It was as simple as that! If you were pro khalistan you were panthic, if you wernt then you were against the panth. But that was then and this is now. Now the panthic jathebandia have forgotten khalistan and need new things to fight over. Some of the groups that do still talk about khalistan are just making noise and doing nothing in the real sense. If we listen to Baba Manochahal when he talks about panthic jathebandia in his speeches, who is he talking about? I think he'd be talking about those who were willing to lay down everything they had for the sake of the panth. Including their possesions, families and their own lives. They had their belief in what was good for the panth i.e. independance and were willing to die for their belief. Is the left over panthic mob willing to do the same for their panthic agendas? The word has been used and abused and is now just something that we can use to put down other people who dont agree with our views. This weekend is an embarrasment, we have 2 panthic meetings happening, one in coventry and one in wolves. Both are 'panthic' both will claim to be doing best for the panth and both will (directly or indirectly) say that the other side is working for anti-panthic agencies! What a complete joke we have become!! We have become soo dumbed down that we just dont seem to think. Penji above gave a brilliant response to what panthic means. How many panthic gatherings are there to develop programmes to promote the reading of gurbani, how many times have the 'panthic lobby' got together to actually help the generation of sikhs who are lost with a confused identity. Panthic, panthic, panthic. I dont think it means much these days at all.

How many times in the last few years have you heard the phrase 'Panthic jathebandi', or 'panthic conference' or 'panthic singhs', or 'panthic issues'.? Have you ever wondered what this actually meant? If there are 'Panthic' parties and groups, then are there 'anti-panthic' ones as well? Do they advertise their events as 'Anti-panthic jathebandi conference' ? Chances are that they use the same wording as well and consider the other to be the anti panthic ones!! Sometimes certain groups are seen as panthic on some issues and not on others, so they must be 'part time panthic jathebandia'! Anyway my question is as follows; What do you think it means to be Panthic? What is a panthic person meant to be like? What is the purpose of a panthic group or person? What is this word which everyone uses alll the time about? Your thoughts please.

The learning of japji sahib should of course be combined with the practice of the teachings of japji sahib. However, the act of learning it and reading it again and again in devotion, is exactly that, devotion. If we compare it when we revise for exams, or for speeches and presentations, we are forced to engage with the material and really dig deep into to memorise it. Its easier to memorise something u understand. For gurbani it will always be easier to memorise it if we know what it means. Quite a few people claim that religion is/was to control people, and to an extent you may be right that this is what it has turned into. Rather then be a way of meeting vaheguru and living the life of a khalsa, we have become something else. Every day our true faith is being twisted and turned, we are questioning the very basis of our faith ... and as ever is the majority influenced by whoever it may be, that seem to have the final say. It seems to have become more about who can shout the loudest rather then what the person has to say. I wouldnt say all wars were based on religion, more maybe that religion is used as an excuse to justify war and bloodshed. But for the common non particularly relgious person, looking at it, they will agree with u and say that religion = war. I guess taking it back to the point about learning gurbani is, that if you spend hours reading it, understanding it, learning it, doing sangat of it, then with maharajhs kirpa it will have an effect on you. It needs to be done! For years and years I could quote loads of sant jarnail singh jis speeches, but ask me to say the first 5 pauris of the japji sahib and i would have been embarassed and made some excuse. Its sad but many of us in that same place, we just dont seem to value gurbani and want to learn it. But somehow we will 'save' the faith. ok then ..

WARNING - If you intend to go watch this film, the following will totally ruin the plot for you so please dont read it (not the best start to a post but there u go!) If you are still reading then its your own fault! Ok somebody recommended this film to me so I went to watch it and was very impressed. The story line is as follows (last chance to turn back!): There was a war (nucleur war?) which took place and resulted in a huge hole opening up in the ozone layer, which caused the sun and its rays to destroy and burn up much of the earth. The majority of the people and most of the earths resources were destroyed. What is left is a broken society with people scrapping and fightin over the most basic of needs, one of the most valuable being water. The world is run by localised criminals who dominate over people using force and by manipulating what resources are left. Guns and weapons are few and rare, fuel, electricity and other such things are also rare. In general its a pretty bad state of affairs ... and also very similar to the kind of things which Gursikhs tell us are due to happen. Into all of this mess steps a man called Eli who carries a book (the bible). Eli is a tough guy who reads his bible daily and has a mission from God. We learn from Eli that after the war, many people blamed the bible (and other religious texts) as being the cause of the war. And therefore there was a massive concerted effort to burn every single copy of the bible (and other texts). A voice however led him to what is the last bible on earth and told him to travel to the west until he finds where it needs to be. Along the way a local crime lord is looking for a copy of the bible. Because he knows that in a world of desperation, of no hope, no happiness, no god, the WORD OF GOD would bring people to him, would give people a chance, would ultimately give him power. Those looking for God would flock to him, looking for the only remaining word of god on the planet. Then theres fights trying to recover the bible, and denzel kicks the heck out of the baddies (great fight scenes!). Eventually the baddy gets the bible, but cant read it beacuse its in braille, and we find out that Eli was actually blind and had been guided across the country and protected throughout by god. Eli on loosing the bible, comments that 'by protecting the bible for so long he almost forgot to practice what it taught him'. He leaves the bible with the bad guys and carries on west. Here he meets some survivors and from memory reads out the bible which he has stored in his mind, word for word, page for page. He dies in the end after this task which was given to him by god. The bad guy who now has the physical bible still cant read it cus its in braille. Overall great film, now for why I am mentioning this on a sikh forum. Couple of points as follows: 1) End of the world/society as we know it. This is bound to happen at one point as even previous societies and world orders have ended. In the nucleur age and with countries like Iran going solo, it is likely that at some point some nut job may just press the button and its game over. If not via nucleur threat, then it may be via economic and resource wars, wars over fuel, food, repaying of debt, terrorism etc. It may be natural, due to environmental issues. Given current world politics, one would be thinking that man made disaster/war is most likely. The film suggests that people may view religion as cause behind this. Today there are many many people who hold same view. If Iran lets off a bomb, then many will view this as Islam vs Christian/Jewish war. Internationally there is a movement growing against religion case in point being France. In the Economist there was an article which reported that "Freedom" was lower now then it had been 10 years ago. This is a measure of various freedoms across the world - not a good sign, we seem to be going backwards! If war goes off, religion will be made culprit, could this lead to destruction of religious items, texts, buildings etc? 2) Gursikhs have spoken about how Sikhs (and i guess other relgious groups) will have to go into hiding again as a result of persecution. Others have spoken about Gurbani dissapearing. Perhaps this is through the deliberate destruction? 3) The most important point .... Eli kept the bible alive by reading it daily and thus memorising the entire bible, and then living (as best he could) by what it taught him. Can we Sikhs, who lay so much importance in the reading of Gurbani say that we do this? In the face of presecution of religion, it is not just the soldier that must survive, it is knowledge of gurbani. We have never wavered when massacred or put our heads down after genocide, we have survived and stood strong. When we seem to waver is when we forget gurbani or when gurbani is challenged and taken away from us. To survive the coming times, it is vital to learn, read, singh and memorise Gurbani. Some rehat namas even say that a Sikh must have japji sahib memorised. Do we all know japji sahib? I can tell you that I have met a number of non amritdharis girls and boys who despite living typical punjabi lives, still do japji sahib daily and know it off by heart (cant even read gurmukhi, but have learnt it from transliteration). We should feel some sharam and at same time inspiration. So without going on even more ... please please let us all learn and memorise gurbani. Its a weird thing, but thats what hollywood and denzel washington reminded me today!

As per a thread I posted a while ago ... our unique identity was given to us by Guru Gobind Singh Ji through our Unique guru, unique rehat, unique appearance etc. No calendar can create or uncreate an identity. Which single peole/race/community around the world is identified by its calendar? lol I think its very unpanthic to say things like this, as the father of our panth gave us our uniqueness. Shame on what is fast becoming our very very limited and small levels of intelligence. We argue and fight over the most ridiculous things. Were becoming a laughing stock.

I am not reading something? Maybe its in invisible font? All I saw was one singh who has a great interest in santhia making a simple comment that the content on the site wasnt the same as he was taught? How is this offensive to anyone? To be honest its a joke that people can have a crack at someone over something as minor as this. How is one comment an issue for panthic unity?! Grow up and stop looking for bad guys. Paranoia is growing and everything said everything typed is seen as something else. I for one am getting sick of it.

Whats with your little personal vendetta against K_z? He has very clearly and simply put that the santhia isnt shudh as per his learning. Simple and easy statement. Where in this has he attacked or ridiculed akj or bhai randhir singh? i think your own prejudice is simply showing you what you want to see. Since you seem to be aware that there are different 'schools' of thought on santhia then it would be obvious that any discussion or anything to do with santhia will lead to some disagreements on various points. Why does this come as a suprise to you? If were talking about Santhia, then as with all due respect, if I had to conclude on what you or Kulbir Singh have stated or what Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji KhalsaBhindranwale states; I would go with Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, due to him being much older than all of us, many know how knowledgable he is in Sikh history, and Gurbaani plus he is a tyaar-bar-tyaar rehit vaan Singh. (not that you and Kulbir Singh are not, I'm sure you are all rehit vaan too). If you think you can get to know someone via reading their internet posts then you really need to develop your communication skills beyond your pc. Get out there and meet people, realise the limitations of sitting in front of a screen. Personally as someone who has known K_Z for a long number of years i am well aware of his view on panthic issues and am well aware of the number of times when he has arranged events with members of the akj, some very close and personal family events were held with again many akj singhs (dont like using these terms so i apologise). So for you to make your judgements from afar is a load of rubbish. You put up a post to let people know about a site concerning santhia. He put up a post saying the santhia isnt what he was taught. The civilised reponse would have been to discuss that some people have developed their own santhia systems outside of taksal etc and that there may be some variations. Job done. Instead you decide to jump on your panthic high horse and start having a personal crack, whilst still using mitthi mitthi language. Very smart! Finally maybe you should take some of your own advice, not everything that the entire world says is against the akj or designed to split the panth or going to create a nucleur fallout. Just Chill.

Hang on is this yet another attempt to try and insult damdami taksal, sant baba takhar singh ji and sri dasam granth sahib ji all in one foul blow?! Using pretty words doesnt cover up the stench of ego and desperation! get a life you <banned word filter activated>

Yeh its real

if you can please watch the discussion on sikh channel regarding one of the ex security guards of choota sauda on sikh channel. I know its being hosted by that joker dhesi who apparently wasnt going to go back on .. but never mind. If sikh channel guys pick this up as well, maybe at the end of the show put up some words saying the views are those of the spreakers etc, cus if ram raheem is accused f rape etc, the guy may try casuing defamation charges to cause problems for the channel.

Thank you brother, I would like to add that I am in full favour of the formation of Khalistan, however the issue of Identity of a nation and the development of a nation are two seperate things. Our identity and our uniqueness was given by Guru Sahib. The development of the Nation/Panth through various means is our seva that we should do for Guru Gobind Singh Jis panth. This may include establishing a state, imrpoving health and education, building a standing army/militia etc. The point I was making is that in this time, so many problems are related to identity issues, these issues were dealt with by Maharajh. We are already unique, seperate or niaareh. We dont need to add things to that uniqueness, we need to go back to basics. Things like independance are not identity issues, they are self preservation issues.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh Many of talk about our Nation (Sikh Nation) and some refer to it as the Panth as well. But I dont believe we (myself included) have a very good understanding of what this means and includes. Recently in some posts some people have mentioned things to do with the calendar changes and how 'this was our one chance to become a seperate nation', or 'this would show that we are a seperate nation'. I think such comments are just short of being offensive to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Lets stop and think about the creation of the Khalsa, the Khalsa Nation. Guru Ji in HIS wisdom made the Khalsa totally unique. He gave them a unique way of life, a unique look, a unique Guru, a rehat maryada etc etc. Even in his gurbani Maharajh talks about creating a third and unique panth to stand seperate from the hindu and muslims. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did everything that was needed to create a seperate and distinguishable Sikh Nation. When people say things as the above, that we need the calendar to be a seperate nation, is nonsense. Guru Maharajh gave us everything we needed! We dont appear to be a seperate nation or people get confused because we dont follow what Guru Ji has ordered. For example; If we were to all take amrit and have full kesh and dastar' If we were all to keep amritvela everyday' If we were all to keep full Sikhi saroop and shastar' If we were all to stand, live and die by the principles of Sikhi, defending the weak and fighting the oppressors, If we were to do seva of the world and cloth the naked and feed the hungry If we read gurbani, taught gurbani and did satkar of Guru Granth Sahib Ji If we were to create a Khalsa Raj, a begumpura on earth. etc etc etc If WE DID these things which distingush us as a nation, then the whole world will say 'look there are the Sikhs, they are the great Khalsa Nation/Panth'. Nobody is going to say 'oh look there are the Sikhs with their seperare calendar!'. It is because we dont do the above and other things that Guru Gobind Singh Ju told us to do, that we appear to outsiders to be Hindus/Muslims etc. When we are cutting our own kesh, then how can we argue when hindus say that we look like them. When we cut and fashion our beards, the muslims say the same. When we are seen as a 'nation' of alcoholics and ego crazy daughter murderers then will developing a new calendar change the world view on this? In short what I am trying to get at is, our nations roots, identity etc were blessed to us by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. If today we wish to argue over calendars and other things, then please do not bring in 'seperate nation' arguements as I do not think they hold any value here. The Sikh Nation has always been seperate and unique, and that will remain the case whether or not we have a different calendar and date system. Some will not agree and that is fine, but just ask yourselves what does a nation need to be identified as seperate? How many nation or nation states exisit around the world, how many are identified by a calendar? How many have their 'own' system and how many are actually involved in dealing with real issues rather then fighting over scraps. I would also be interested in what other people think are the requirements for a nation. If things continue the way they are and we dont go back to basics with our Sikhi and do as the Guru said, then our Khalsa PANTH will shortly become Khalsa PANTHS.

Good to see at least some of the old traditions still being kept. It is funny though to hear people talking about how changes to the calendar shouldnt just happen like this and that it shouldnt be rushed etc. I recall when the nanakshahi calendar was introduced and implemented, it took place soo fast most of the sikh world werent even aware it had happened!!

No it wasnt, since no book was 'installed like and at par' with maharajhs saroop. A saroop of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was parkash next to Maharajh. And Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is not a "book" it is the gurbani written by guru gobind singh ji and is recognised by the same akal thakhat as such. Harry potter is a book, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji cannot be considered a book and anyone who wishes to call themselves a Sikh needs to consider if they really view the tenth gurus writings as being in merely a 'book'. Same way we would not call a gutka sahib a book, or call a senchi a book etc. If someone did parkash of a book, then that is entirely different thing, but here and at many other places around the world, we have parkash of a saroop of dasam granth sahib ji. And Militant Singh, you have a picture of Sant Jarnail Singh in your profile and you claim to have a lot of respect, in another thread you even said that someone who doesnt believe/follow sant ji is not a sikh ... well do you follow sant ji and are you a sikh? Because the maryada that was done at willenhall was what sant ji practiced. So is sant jarnail singh ji guilty of breaking maryada and an rss etc? You cant sit on the fence, you cant say you follow sant ji and at the same time speak against dasam granth. So you will have to choose at some point. If you want to bring sant ji into this then lets to it with truthfullness. Sant ji did katha of dasam bani, but did he do prakash on same level and under the same palki as SGGS. If you have proof otherwise then please show me. Thankyou. Khalistan_ z is one of the most behaved singhs i have seen on this forum. Lets let admins decide that. on another note, ive noticed alot of people get put under quality control once they get into an argument with you (inder). is that just a mere coincidence? i hope so. For the sake of the forum...i really hope so. Hanji Bhaji, Sant Ji definetly did parkash of dasam granth sahib ji under the same chandoa and palki as Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharajh at Damadami Taksal headquaters at Metha Chowk. The Gurdwara Sahib was built by Sant Kartar Singh ji and the sadh sangat and the parkash has been there since Sant Kartar Singh Ji and Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. If you get a chance try to get to go the place you will see it there now as well. As you said Sant Ji did katha, gave santhia of dasam bani as well. On the weekend we heard that Sant Kartar Singh had also told some of the Singhs in the jatha to do an Akhand Path of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji at a Gurdwara Sahib in Bombay. The Singhs completed their santhia and got ready to do the paath, but then some nihang singhs got into a fight with each other (related to some other issue) and the paath had to be held off. But the Singh said that he was one of the ones who was told to do the paath. So again even Sant Kartar Singh Ji Bhindranwale did equal parkash and would have done an akhand paath of the paath as well. Honestly brother those of us who are saying that its ok to do parkash of both are not doing this to demean or to bring down the status of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We just trying to keep satkar for Guru Gobind Singh Jis bani, as done by our soorme shaheed singhs and singhnia.

No it wasnt, since no book was 'installed like and at par' with maharajhs saroop. A saroop of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji was parkash next to Maharajh. And Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is not a "book" it is the gurbani written by guru gobind singh ji and is recognised by the same akal thakhat as such. Harry potter is a book, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji cannot be considered a book and anyone who wishes to call themselves a Sikh needs to consider if they really view the tenth gurus writings as being in merely a 'book'. Same way we would not call a gutka sahib a book, or call a senchi a book etc. If someone did parkash of a book, then that is entirely different thing, but here and at many other places around the world, we have parkash of a saroop of dasam granth sahib ji. And Militant Singh, you have a picture of Sant Jarnail Singh in your profile and you claim to have a lot of respect, in another thread you even said that someone who doesnt believe/follow sant ji is not a sikh ... well do you follow sant ji and are you a sikh? Because the maryada that was done at willenhall was what sant ji practiced. So is sant jarnail singh ji guilty of breaking maryada and an rss etc? You cant sit on the fence, you cant say you follow sant ji and at the same time speak against dasam granth. So you will have to choose at some point.