dalsingh101

I have loads in my family. I hope you have something better to say other than 'My own family is exactly the type that is behind this problem' and thus try to somehow 'normalise' it? ^^^^^ Maybe your family need to talk about this a bit more - and if the older ones are staunchly backwards, maybe the younger generation needs to take a lead and not perpetuate the penduness?

Maybe this has got a lot to do with the subject at hand? Whose doing the 'rounding'? Ever consider that they themselves may be doing this because they are misled (not exactly hard to be in this world is it?), or maybe they are actually knowingly pursuing some agenda/preserving or forming some materialistically advantageous status quo which motivates their actions? I know there are limits to challenging set ways, and that this can be approached moronically (like that madman Darshan Ragi guy who abruptly started to tell people they had got nitnem all wrong). But I'll tell you straight up, some of our peasantry (past and present) only adopted this pseudo-European Scythian/Saka identity for purely ego enhancing purposes, it didn't matter to them that the theory was based on a pile of horse manure - it served a purpose - perceived exaltation. Proximity to the victorious power. Or, maybe they really were simple minded yokels ready to genuinely swallow anything and incapable of seeing through a simple psychological rouse like this? Although I find that hard to believe. Thankfully, we didn't have some lowlife like Hitler with his 'Aryan' glory stories (and what hellish nightmare they led to). Or maybe we'll have a revisionist fool along those lines to look forward to in future, if the Panjab really goes down the toilet? Plus I'll be frank brother (and I'm not trying to offend anyone here) - what is the difference between the 'delicate disposition' you speak of and cowardice? We know the caste thing is deeply embedded within our families and it will take a lot of us coming out of our comfort zones to address this - especially those from Jat backgrounds, too many of whom 'sit it out' as they are not usually on the receiving end of caste discrimination like some other groups may be. If the video I posted is correct, then it points at some serious levels of stupidity amongst the lower socio-economic Jats being spoken of, who appear to be mindlessly going along with fellow Jats who don't really seem to give too much of a toss about them - hence the poor Jat suicide problem in Panjab people go on about periodically. Let's be brutally frank, if the cancer stricken, polluted soil, drug/alcohol addicted Panjab of today, that all the youth seem to want to run away from (to the west) is the product of a Jatt political hegemony - then there needs to be a lot of shame being felt in certain quarters. Real talk.

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Okay, in no particular order. Some good ones: The dark knight (rises?) - The one with the joker guy who killed himself The warrior (Brit/Indian film about the Kshattri who rejects the warrior way, I think it was a Channel 4 production?) West is west - modern Panjabi film Oh brother where art thou - those Cohen brothers can make a film! Goodfellas (Joe Pesci scared the tutti out of me) The exorcist (original) An American werewolf in London Most old Hammer house of horror films

I think you are being overly (and dangerously) idealistic here. If we have a community that is prone to insularity and they form a majority of an organisation, their characteristics WILL effect the institute. Hell, in the UK, you can work for a firm with only a handful of closet racists in powers of position and feel its effect, let alone a situation with a majority of people who have exclusionist, supremacist leanings and hold the levers of power. Not to say every last Jatt has these tendencies, but those that don't only don't because of the influence of Sikhi or some other egalitarian ideology.

I'm really surprised at brothers/sisters who've bought into the Saka/Scythian theories and talk about them as if they were proven, established facts. Some of you regulars might have noticed that I do have an ongoing interest not only in history but also the processes behind the writing of history - historiography. The truth is that the theories put forward by colonialist white Europeans where based on the most tenuous links, with pretty much no (or very little) evidence as support. This goes for the both the 'Aryan invasion' theories and the 'Scythian' one. It's telling that whilst Europeans demand the most inscrutable evidence for proof of history as our people put it, they themselves can put forward bullsh1te like this with claims to authority. But look closer and you'll learn essential (and often uncomfortable) truths about people, supremacy, imperialism, slavery, propaganda. When our society started to come under the notice of the British (late 1700s), we weren't doing too badly. It's also a fact that white supremacist thinking was taking a hold of the European mind in a strong way at around this time. So imagine the thoughts going on in the minds of a colonialist supremacist at what he saw: With a strong warning against using our ancestors actions and achievements for personal ego enhancing purposes today, I'll state that (amongst other things) they saw in the Sikhs/Panjabis and their society/culture: high levels of bravery, reflection, adaptation, organisation, freedom, open mindedness, reform and dynamism. This is written all over early European accounts, even when the writer has been a jealous observer. Now to the white supremacist mind this didn't compute, because here we had these BROWN people who clearly demonstrated values and characteristics that they felt where their especially their own and specific markers/evidence of their own supremacy over non-whites. So what they saw completely put white supremacist theories in the dustbin (where they belong in my opinion). So how did European 'intellectuals' resolve this striking dissonance? By rewriting history based on the most tenuous of 'links' that somehow twisted matters so that the non-white achievers they saw before them, somehow became white - or originated from 'white lands'- hence the Aryan/Scythian buckwaas. Not only this, it also served in a justifying capacity for their imperialism along the lines of 'your ancestors where whiteys like us who conquered this place and ruled over it in the past, we are just carrying on that tradition'. The kind of jazz Edward Said spoke about in his famous work Orientalism, which I'll now quote: Okay, going back to the post annexation situation, it isn't hard to imagine that some (many?) of our defeated people lapped up the idea that they were related to the same or similar stock to the new conquerors, having your @rse kicked can do that. However, in this post hoc analysis scenario we find ourselves in today, I put it to the forum that only the most magnificent specimen of an <banned word filter activated> wouldn't be able to see how the 'theories' worked strongly in favour of the colonialists in maintaining control over the Panjab and that this reality heavily motivated their emergence and promotion. I mean I've read these old colonialist theories, most of them are as weak as "Jats are descendant of the Massagetae, and the the evidence of this is that 'getae' sounds like Jat." Having outlined the historical context of the emergence of such tenuous and obviously motivated 'theories' the big question for us should concern the matter of why some of our own brothers (and sisters) are STILL swallowing this crap, hook, line and sinker today????

Here's a short pertinent video. Please share your thoughts.

I think the middling reviews were probably from white viewers. If you're Panjabi, you'd pick up on a whole lot of stuff in the movie that whites wouldn't.

Love it!! Especially the pad arth. Good way of increasing the old vocabulary whilst getting spiritual knowledge too!! Salute to you Prabhjot Singh.

mega lol@being old at 25/30............. Get a grip dude, life has just started for you - not ended! Everything's gonna be alright.

I thought this was interesting. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/14/netanyahu-coalition-split-draft-orthodox

Anyone seen that movie 'West is west'? Saw it the other day, thought it was pretty good. It was almost a 'Panjabi film'. Sort of proves that popular films CAN be made using the Panjabi language, if done thoughtfully.

You know one of the things that really surprises me about our community sometimes is the lack of 'josh' when it comes to social reform like this. The reason it surprises me is because doing something like eliminating caste in the diaspora IS infinitely more achievable than other Sikh causes that do seem to get a lot of people engaged - like Khalistan. Personally I think the time is coming (if it hasn't already) where we in diasporic enclaves can actually be an example to our brothers and sisters backhome who seem, almost en masse, to have gone completely of the rails with casteism and drugs. We need to deal with this matter as priority and not just at a surface level, we need to address what Pyara on the forum once described as 'institutional casteism' within our religious organisations. This is casteism that is more craftily concealed than the usual stuff we talk about i.e. Gurdwara names etc. Limp responses from many youth on this matter, especially those who are usually quite vocal about all matters 'Sikh' makes me wonder if many of them are surreptitiously clinging on to their parents generation's mindset? hmmm?

More like too poor to afford fancy software and a tablet and mouse!

Yes, done on MS Paint with a mouse. Kaljugi! You gots skills!

Cool! Me and Chatanga had a similar thread going on on the sikhawareness.com forum. ਪ੍ਰਣਾਲੀ I'm going to guess. Is it a spelling variation of ਪਰਨਾਲੀ, which means system, method, manner, technique??

I recall a katha by Giani Thakur Singh who said that Jaap Sahib is a very difficult bani to memorise and his opinion was that the best way to achieve this was to practice writing it as well as reading it. If I recall rightly he said words to the effect of 'you wont memorise this without writing' though I'm sure there are those blessed ones who do manage this. I also read a comment by the legendary Professor Sahib Singh who also said that memorising this bani was very difficult because it uses repetition quite frequently and that if someone's attention wonders slightly during recital from memory they can easily find themselves making jumps backwards and forwards because of this. A technique I'm using to try and memorise Japji Sahib is to try and solidly memorise a single pauri at a time, when you have solidly mastered one, then go to the next and do the same and keep doing this incrementally. It is very important to have properly internalised one section BEFORE you move on from it though! Make sure you repeat what you have memorised a few times a day. It also helps to have a sort of summarised understanding of the subject of each pauri/chaand and link these sequentially. Try doing this with the chaands of Jaap Sahib maybe? I find this helps me.

Something I made a while ago....

I'm just wondering if an average white reader would recognise these people as nonSikhs from their names like we would?

That Natasha Behl dissertation sounds very interesting. I can't view the link in the OP with my browser. Can I get a pdf version of the dissertation from somewhere? Or read a html version online? It's heartwarming to read the comments of the brothers and sisters who have internalised the wonderful egalitarian principles of the faith and rejected false notions of caste. Any conscious and forward thinking Sikh knows that this ugly remnant of the past has held the Sikh communities progression back, being the direct cause of a lot of lowly, base behaviour amongst us. Not only this, but it makes our society look like a microcosm of Hinduism with its inherent inequality. I've also noticed that those who wish to perpetuate this nonsense always produce the same old, tired arguments about 'race', 'culture' in order to defend it. Heartlessly playing down the outright cruelty that clearly manifests itself as a direct consequence of such beliefs. The truth is that such people, despite their obfuscation, only do this because they want to preserve some perceived personal status, or perceived superiority from the dynamics of the caste system. And it is sad and telling that people still need to cling onto such things to make themselves feel good about themselves, especially when they have had the benefit of an education. Whilst you can half understand some ignorant pendu, thinking this way (as rubbish as it is), I still find it shocking that children of the 21st century can think this way?? But it will be a sad time for such mental old foggies in the diaspora (some of whom are surprisingly young - no doubt brainwashed by older casteists), because they will increasingly see how the social landscape of our society, will change rapidly (IS changing rapidly!!) around us. A lot of us are bright enough to see the writing on the wall. The way things are going, pretty soon [for those who haven't got there already], most Sikhs will be sighing a massive breathe of relief when their daughter marries a fellow Sikh regardless of caste. But I have noticed another trend lately as well, where some ignorant apnay actually seem to prefer their daughters marrying say a gora, rather than them marrying into another subsection of the Sikh community whom they deem to be inferior. I'll put my money on belief and faith in the eternal outlasting any 'race', 'genetic' based ideologies, which come and go. No 'race' of people, however 'grand' their empires or achievements, or however great they have considered themselves haven't been brought back down to earth, sometimes with a dramatic drop. Maybe this is what dasmesh pita meant when he described Rabh as 'Garab Gunjan' or 'destroyer of pride' in Jaap Sahib? Those wishing to preserve some 'pure blood' should remember the last little Austrian <banned word filter activated> that was obsessed with such ideas and the holocaust he let loose on the earth because of it. If a Sikh thinks that 'preservation' of some genetic material is equal to, or worth compromising the preservation, cohesion and progression of the Sikh community - which is based on belief despite shrewed political moves in the UK to turn it into a ethnic identity, I seriously doubt they have any genuine affection for the underlying principles of the faith. Like caste, I imagine the Sikhi of their imagination is just another plank to prop up their ego - which is ironic, because as already pointed out, subduing the ego is one of the central goals of the religion. We've got a fair few battles ahead of us, on a number of planes, against both external and internal forces. A conscious Sikh probably already knows that one of the big internal fights is against the thinking that results in Sikhs creating hierarchies amongst themselves based on unSikhlike principles, chief of which is casteism/clannism/ethnowhateverism (whatever the heck people are packaging that crap up as today!) Don't excuse it, don't ignore it, confront it, fight it, defeat it! Big respect to the Jakara Movement people for taking the steps they have. Salute to all the Sikh brothers and sisters who dream of a begumpura in their hearts and take action to realise this dream. No ethoracial, clan, caste jibberish should stand in the way of our people realising a fair society amongst ourselves. It's what our Gurus strove for. Achievements we make in this domain will be one of the best things we could pass down to future generations. YOU KNOW it's a cause worth fighting for.

Come on. There are a hundred and one things we could do top down and grass roots that could help foster feelings of unity and loyalty to each other. Literature, media and most importantly family discussions play a part. I mean take a look at the very things that work against this, casteism in films and song, competitiveness - the unhealthy jealous kind we are good at etc. etc. Low self esteem or idolisation that makes apnay crawl up x or y's backside and back stab their own. lol All these types of things could be countered in different ways. You'd never end them, but we could do a damn sight better than we are now IMO. Mankind in general might suffer from this problem but different groups have it in different levels. It's arguable, but I'd say our cohesion is pretty poor compared to some others out there. Anyway, I've said way too much on the topic of the thread. I've made my points as clear as I can, I'll now try and graciously bow out.......

Before you read my comments, understand that I appreciate yours, they clearly emanate from someone who isn't simple minded and it is a pleasure to exchange with someone who has obviously given some thought to these matters and has many valid observations to make. Reading your posts has brought a few things sharply into focus for me regarding the direction in which we are heading. And although you've done an excellent job in conveying your opinion, I still disagree with many of them. So take what's written below as critical reflections. In the end, neither of us can claim to know the possible outcomes of various strategies with anything remotely approaching a strong degree of certainty. Lets be frank, the fact that such people are dwindling leaves us open to a lot of abuse in the UK. And the cavalier way you describe the people who did have the balls to stand up, like it was minor thing says a lot. Especially when the lack of such people is very conspicuous now, as are certain problems we keep having from certain people. Problems that are deep, attacks on the very fabric/structure of our society. Which can't solely be defeated through physical means, though this has its place. You bring into focus the different needs of our scattered Sikh communities in your post. It's true that my focus was probably on the UK and its issues. Although we are linked to our brethren back home, I still think the smart plan is to focus on solving your immediate problems and those in your vicinity rather than unrealistic overreaching. Just personally, regarding the problems in India, I don't know if all out war with India is a good idea. Lately I've felt that it would be much better for Sikhs to seek to influence other Indians with their culture, lifestyle - win them over so to speak. We know that forces over there have persistently maligned us, we need to reverse this. If there is a place where Sikh thinking (as exemplified by our Gurus, not today's Sikhs) is not only needed, but also has a natural home it is India. In short India needs to be a Sikh country, we need to spread and grow there and not confine the faith in the web of Panjab's agricultural issues. The striking examples of all those wonderful exceptions, who bravely countered the general trend, starkly highlight one of the main underlying points about my arguments, that when you send large groups through any system/institutional set up like the army/police, the majority become drones and you're playing a dangerously unrealistic game if you think we can always rely on people like those iconic exceptions to balance things out. So whilst you might think the strategy you suggested may produce potential, independent minded/spirited warriors for our own cause - in reality, what you most likely would end up doing is creating a lemming horde. Whatever the idealistic, youthful opinion of brothers like hdsingh is, few people can resist the impact of socialisation/indoctrination - to overlook this is to be blind. Plus it is foolish to imagine that authorities watching any 'Sikh' military unit wouldn't keep a seriously close eye on what goes on amongst the ranks - they always have, and historically they've been pretty good at that stuff, especially with us. Influences which impart free thinking, belonging and loyalty to an outside group (which is what you are talking about) will be EXACTLY what authorities will be watching out for - and counteracting! In any case, to undertake anything of significance (as you alluded to) depends largely on our cohesion and loyalty to each other and the idea of our being one community, our own patriotism if you like. But we are SO behind in this respect, that you know damn well that any big move we would make under the current situation would be beset by treachery and ambition by our own. That's what we really need to work on right now. I guess a big difference between our thinking relates to India and whether it is time for all out war? This is where my thinking has changed of late. Seeing as the economy is rising and has so much potential, personally I feel that Sikhs should be getting poised to rinse that <banned word filter activated> out. If India thrives, our people are too shrewed not to profit from it and seeing as what most Sikhs really seem to want is a better lifestyle (lets be real here, truly religious impulses animate a minority of people's actions), I question their stomach for war. Genuinely, I feel that globally Sikhs may be on the cusp of affluence like they've never had before - whether the effect of this is positive or negative, who can tell? But if the UK is anything to go by, affluence with result in a even bigger decrease in 'martiality' (I think I made that word up...hehhehehe).

Sorry, but the fact that you've interpreted what I'm saying as the above is plain dumb. Pick up on the nuances man.

So, the general consensus on whether we can still be considered 'martial' seems to be a 'no' then?