THE WARRIOR

My research has led me to believe that other than a small sub-sect the majority of Christians do not believe in Karma since Christianity has always viewed the doctrine of Karma as a great evil. A large majority of Christians belive that salvation is completely a gift of God's grace through Christ received by faith, and that to think otherwise is offensive. For them, the idea of the Abrahamic God, dispersing decisions through ineffable and omniscient judgements, makes the concept of karma redundant. So I am confused as to how you can make the above statement. Thank you for your interpretation of the above, however from your posts I would not have guessed that is what it meant. Since as is evident since I posted my message you took it as a personally attack against the Nihaangs, which it was not since it is referring to all jathebandi. As I said in my post the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in all of their gutke supports that fact that amritdhari Sikhs should not indulge in these activities. But you have decided to judge me from the outset. I have not attempted to judge anyone all I ask is an explanation as to why activities considered inappropriate for amritdhari Sikh to indulge in 7-10 years are now considered appropriate? If I am mistaken and they are not inappropriate then please educate me. I have used bani to provide examples which lead me to my conclusion if bani supports the actions then please let me know. You may say it is because the other jathebandi have always hid these action but the UK men in blue (would not call them Nihaangs since I am yet to meet one who follows the Bhuddha Dal Rehatnama in full, this is not a judgement but an observation.) would say that they do not hide their actions they do them in the open. However this is also a lie since in other jathebnadi the individuals are doing these things openly and even the UK men in blue do not do everything openly, they too have activities they undertake behind closed doors and deny in public. I will not go into those here since this thread is not about that. With that in mind can i respectfully ask that this thread not be turned into Nhiaang bashing since there has been plenty of that going on and lets stick to the problem in hand; and as I have stated the UK men in blue are not a true repreenation of Nihaangs in India. Having met the Nihaangs in India and stayed with them they are completely different and not aligned to Hindu mat as much as the UK men in blue are. Kaur_Khalistani thank you very much for your response. However if the issue is because as you state: Why take amrit? Why not then just enjoy your youth? The concern I have is with amritdhari undertaking this activity. If it is because of this why go off the rails? Should you not be demonstrating to those ck people what true Sikhi is? None of us are perfect which is why Guru Ji gave us sangat, so that we could learn right and wrong from each other. The sangath is not there for you to learn right and wrong from, nor is that its purpose. Realistically today the sangath only works on popular opinion. Anyway addressing other issues. Devotion does not exist outside of Karma, is Devotion alone enough for salvation? Yes it is and No it isn’t only unconditional devotion is salvation. The problem is everybody is “how to be devotional” and not “what is devotion” this is flawed. If a type of religion does not believe in system of Karma it does not mean Karma does not exist, equally a type Christian claims salvation ONLY via Christ, which actually most Christians do, what does that mean for the rest of us? When Christ was here he didn’t hang out with Christians nor did he write the bible. You state that different religions have different concepts of Karma, ok so what’s your concept? There is one the same one it’s just that you’re so hung-up on anti this anti- that you simply don’t understand it or want to. We only want to understand logic and our limited devotion which we claim to be absolute but its not. But the true devout are above this. The Human mentality is such we create the God we want, The Guru we want, the Granth we want, because we don’t want to understand what is already in existence. The type of devotion even if limited if anything only leads to heavenly states it does not lead to liberation and Mukti, heavenly states are only temporary and really amount to nothing. This is all Karma. Consciously or unconsciously, aware or not every living being strives towards salvation, liberation, mukti. Powerful negative tendencies are deeply engraining, the judging, classifying and damning of fellow people are such tendencies, False motive and false actions are only damning to one own self. There’s nothing here contradictory to Sikhi as you claim it to be, this is only a tribal card you're playing for a popular opinion, its all there you're just not looking. there’s nothing here that is negative towards humanity. Your views on Nihangs, Buddha Dal, etc don’t even warrant a response, you just pretend to know what you’re talking about. With one face you slander with the other you tell others not to. I have never claimed to be a Nihang, nor a representative of Buddha Dal. As for your indirect slating of the U.K Nihangs and Niddar that’s up to you, personally although not a student of Shastar Vidya, I have nothing but respect for the man who I have spoken to on occasions. However in the mentality of upnai this is assassination by association, to which I couldn’t care less. The issue here is the mentality of people, if anything, so many pseudo-Bhai Sahibs out there wagging the moral finger that in some way or another put people off. If people dance they choose to, if people are in relationships they choose to be, if people dance and choose to be in relationships does not suggest they are anything less. If dancing and all the other “vices” you detest are not you then they are not you, but the biggest “vice” is judgment and condemnation. This is my last post on this, its getting kinda repetitive now. End

If you have an axe to grind with Niddar take it to him, He’s got nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. Otherwise contribute to the debate. It’s strange how the mods get all flustered when there is talk that attacks their belief systems yet they’re perfectly happy to sit back and let others they don’t agree with get verbally attacked by those that support breaking the law and violence, there’s something very sickening about it, yet fundamentally it demonstrates behind the all humble shell its just narrow visions and insecurities.

WARRIOR Ji I am not attempting to push any agenda. All I want to know is why is the current activity acceptable within the youth. A very simple question which I think you may have the answer to. Please do not run away just yet since you have not managed to go for the kill. With regard to karma you are utilising the Hindu definition, as you know if you go to Wikipedia numerous religions have numerous definitions. But let us see what Guru Ji has to say. Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: karamee aavai kaparraa nadharee mokh dhuaar || By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found. Whereas a shabad by Guru Amar Das Ji makes it very explicit: hukamae karam kamaavanae paeiai kirath firaao || According to the Lord's Command, people perform their actions; they wander around, driven by the karma of their past actions. hukamae dharasan dhaekhanaa jeh bhaejehi theh jaao || By the Lord's Command, they behold the Blessed Vision of His Darshan. Wherever He sends them, there they go. hukamae har har man vasai hukamae sach samaao ||5|| By His Command, the Lord, Har, Har, abides within our minds; by His Command we merge in Truth. ||5|| hukam n jaanehi bapurrae bhoolae firehi gavaar || The wretched fools do not know the Lord's Will; they wander around making mistakes. manehat(h) karam kamaavadhae nith nith hohi khuaar || They go about their business stubborn-mindedly; they are disgraced forever and ever. a(n)thar saa(n)th n aavee naa sach lagai piaar ||6|| Inner peace does not come to them; they do not embrace love for the True Lord. ||6|| guramukheeaa muh sohanae gur kai haeth piaar || Beautiful are the faces of the Gurmukhs, who bear love and affection for the Guru. sachee bhagathee sach rathae dhar sachai sachiaar || Through true devotional worship, they are attuned to Truth; at the True Door, they are found to be true. aaeae sae paravaan hai sabh kul kaa karehi oudhhaar ||7|| Blessed is their coming into being; they redeem all their ancestors. ||7|| sabh nadharee karam kamaavadhae nadharee baahar n koe || All do their deeds under the Lord's Glance of Grace; no one is beyond His Vision. jaisee nadhar kar dhaekhai sachaa thaisaa hee ko hoe || According to the Glance of Grace with which the True Lord beholds us, so do we become. naanak naam vaddaaeeaa karam paraapath hoe ||8||3||20|| O Nanak, the Glorious Greatness of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is received only by His Mercy. ||8||3||20|| So please rather than referring to Hindu definitions lets stick with what Guru Sahib has said to us and you cannot get more clearer than what Guru Amar Das has stated. The shabad also answers your point in relation to "If you want to reach out to people it should be unconditional, anything else is false" in that Guru Ji states "The wretched fools do not know the Lord's Will; they wander around making mistakes" Therefore by living within Guru Ji's will there is a condition. I would welcome your thoughts on this, which I am sure you will provide since with being a Warrior and all I don't expect you to run away. Thank you for your recommendations but I don’t use Wikipedia for any knowledge.You haven’t disproved anything I’ve stated your simply continuing to do the exact same thing again and again you're totally oblivious to your actions, you continue to quote Gurbani totally out of context. Whose actions are more negative yours or those you judge and criticise? There is no difference between Hindu Karma, Sikh Karma, Christian Karma, Karma is Karma. There are no separate processes they all are fundamentally the same. reread the sentence "If YOU want to reach out to people it should be unconditional, anything else is false" Let me explain this to you, what it means is if you were genuine and truly concerned you would reach out to people unconditionally, you wouldn’t care what people have done are doing, who are you to judge anyone? Your actions are false simply because you have chosen to judge certain people you don’t live according to your standards, your “high jeevans” how can you know anyone? You don’t even realise its absolutely wrong to misquote Bani to suit your argument. “The wretched fools do not know the Lord's Will” THE LORDS WILL, NOT YOURS! You are not a bailiff for the Lord, sorry but you are not the chosen one. This may be a shocking revelation but it’s the truth.

Thank you for your positive review, you may know who I am, but obviously you still don’t know how to spell. JAH!

Morakh Ji. As I said in my post I along with others have approached numerous people with pyar yet we are faced with the fact that these actions are considered normal and as such we are challenged in reverse as to how dare we say anything. Because they are considered the norm everyone is accepting of those actions. My intention is not to point fingers hence why I have not referred to any individuals within the posting. My intention is also not to speak for the sake of speaking but to highlight a huge problem which we all know exists, but for some reason are silent on these points. I do not recall doing any nindiya in my post and I am humbly seeking guidance as to why we are in the situation we are faced with today. I am also very pleased that THE WARRIOR has also given his view since in the response below are the key excuses given by those who are doing all these things. To respond to his acquisition of distorting Gurbani, that is not my intention and if any thukh has been used out of context then he should highlight it. The thukh guramukh rom rom har dhhiaavai || referes to bibia and singh not just one party. From sakhia I have read and heard with respect to spiritually enlighted individuals, this thukh is not metaphorical but it is literal. In that you can hear gurmantar from their raum. If the language was metaphorical what is it that Guru Ji is trying to refer to then, what updesh is being given? Above I perceive we have an example of the type of belief which is leading to the current endemic. I have heard numerous times from people who I have approached to discuss their actions how it is their own karma. However in Sikhi when we give our head we loose our freedom of will or don’t we? Karma refers to previous deeds. This is where Guru Nank Dev Ji States: jo mai keeaa so mai paaeiaa dhos n dheejai avar janaa ||21|| Whatever I did, for that I have suffered; I do not blame anyone else. Sikhi is also not unconditional. There are numerous conditions given when we take amrit. There are also numerous handwritten Hukamnamae from the Gurus which also give orders on what Sikhs should do. So how can applying conditions be false? The biggest condition we have is from Guru Ram Das: gur sathigur kaa jo sikh akhaaeae s bhalakae out(h) har naam dhhiaavai || One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. You still continue to push your agenda by quoting Gurbani, I sincerely would suggest you address this. Rather then dismantle your whole argument piece by piece I’ll go straight for the kill, because that’s how warriors work ,metaphorically speaking Your comment “Karma refers to previous deeds” Obviously clueless, here the spiritually enlighten individuals who explained the concept of “guramukh rom rom har dhhiaavai” which they claim literally to be “The Gurmukh meditates on the Lord with every hair of his body” failed to explain how the Karmic Structure works, possibly you may have forgotten to ask but fundamentally your very existence is based on this…….by even trying to deplete a type karma you also create a type of karma…it is all karma…your doing it right now and you don’t even know. You may want to ring up a bhai sahib somewhere and get an opinion on this. Anyways me got no more time for this…. Me out Jamming to Iron Lion Zion!

How has he distorted gurbaaNee? If you have such gyaan of gurbaaNee then share what you think those tuks mean? If they mean something else I will agree, people are so quick to point fingures instead of working towards a solution, the warrior, I don't mean to attack you or your views but this is the outlook that is digging a bigger hole for us. Bhul chuk muaaf. I don’t have any Gian, but I do have some common sense, Very well, one example guramukh rom rom har dhhiaavai || The Gurmukh meditates on the Lord with every hair of his body This is metaphoric language, its got nothing to do with Bibia and what they decide to do with their body hair. Its not literal. It’s this sort of mentality that put people off. Nothing the poster has enlightened on here has dug any type of hole for me, how people choose to live is entirely up to them, consciously or unconsciously freedom of will is fundamental no two persons Karma is alike therefore what applies to one does not necessarily apply to others. If you want to reach out to people it should be unconditional, anything else is false.

Ye, sorry I forgot Judging people and distorting Bani to project a narrow mindset is totally “the moral crusade” and the cure people so long for. Hitler also had good intentions.

You need a hobby

It matters little who wrote what, when and why, what really matters is where it has led people. What if any benefit it has brought humanity and human beings. Religions work on a devotional level, but most including the vast amount of Sikhs always want to know is “how to be” this cannot work and it doesn’t. If we really looked at “what is” we realise how flawed we are, and all the knowledge of books and scriptures are of little no benefit. Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj tells us what true devotion is, the smart ones see this and mimic this, but this is not true devotion this is falsehood. Instead of excepting what is already there, if we understand it or not it doesn’t matter, we continue to create our own God…such is the state of our mentalities.

Lol, actually none of it is you, the physical matter isn’t you, and all the fancy logic and ideas are not you either….the problem is the more attachment there is to the physical and logical “I am I” the more difficult it is.

Most of your posts are quite cryptic for me. :D Please elaborate.Try not to deviate from the topic please :s What part of the mind is you?

Religions address the moral insecurities of life, Spirituality addresses the certainties of death.

Terrible, you're going to hell to fry burgers for saddam!……Just kidding!

The Mind nothing but a collective of projections, nothing but falsehood and illusions, its not even you.

!FACTS!?

Sanathans = Poison in the panth The pot calling the kettle black!

Actually , to cut a long story very short, Daksha, Parvatees Father criticised Shiva constantly. Frustrated she confronted Shiva about his manner and actions, the dancing, nakedness, sitting with demons, etc etc etc. the list was pretty long! :s Shiva simply replied “there’s a difference between morality and spirituality”

Reading some of the responses it’s no wonder.

I couldn’t care less I’m not a Hindustani nor a Khalistani for that matter. Both ideologies are flawed. As for the Punjab its just become a fat consumer state where greed is the only religion people worship. Grow trees not religion.

You’re gonna end up in hell….pulling pints for saddam and hitler!

Khalistanis = bottled water and Kalashnikovs

Devotion, ask not how but what.

You create it you decide when it ends