Koi

The concept of the crimes being wrong are there (mentioning that they are wrong and punishable in God's court). However, there is no prescribed worldly punishment in the specific sense. In Sikhi, that authority is given to the Panj Pyare, 5 highly spiritual Gursikhs who represent the Guru himself, and it is they who will mett out the appropriate punishment for the crime.

Well, the Sikhs did actually have a Raj under Maharaja Ranjit Singh for a period of 40 years. In terms of the rules/laws, they would come from the Guru's baani (being the supreme authority), and the various rehitnamas and historical works etc.

The concept of this is best summed up here: ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਇ ॥: Dhan pir(u) aaheeani bahani ikathae hoi. Ek joti dui mooratee dhan pir(u) kaheeai soi: Wife and husband are not they who pose as one whole; wife and husband are they who are two bodies with one soul (sggs 788). So to put it logically, marriage can only occur between husband and wife (man and woman). And, there is no physical relationship outside of marriage. Which would make gay marriage/relationship etc. impermissible. In terms of punishment, what I mean by that is that the punishment is God's to give. So, we don't go round on a witch hunt and kill people for being gay, which is the case in some countries. It's a fine line to tread, but there you go ?? Edit: what was the point of down voting this man's post? He was just asking a question.

I don't see what's so silly about that post. It's actually a correct observation. Must have hit a raw nerve... Ideologies are never 100% new, whether you talk about language, culture, food, philosophy etc., there's always an element of similarities everywhere. You actually haven't made a valid argument here. The Abrahamic religions believe in progressive revelations. So you still have to believe in the previous prophets (assuming they actually existed). However, with Sikhi, the connection to Hinduism is more cultural and geographical, rather than ideological. I'm not denying that there aren't similarities (there are similarities in all), but it's not connected in the same way as the Abrahamic religions are. In the words of everyone's favourite Muslim apologist, Dr. Zakir Naik: "I hope that answers your question." ?

Sikhi (much like the other mainstream beliefs of the India subcontinent) is unequivocally against homosexuality. There is no room for a same gender Anand Karaj in Sikhi. Let me be clear though; if an individual is gay, but they do not engage in any form of same gender relations (because they know it's wrong), then that's ok. You can't help who you're attracted to (though there's room for debate there), however you can choose whether to act on it or not. If a guy individual chooses to remain celibate and serve mankind, then all good. Unlike other belief systems though, Sikhi does not advocate giving out punishments for someone who is gay.

A coward with nothing better to do. Someone who clearly has been refuted many times and now, in a final act of intellectual bankruptcy, is down voting very old posts. People like this will never come out in the open, so they do silly things like this, thinking they have "won"?!

Islamic invasion? What Islamic invasion. I'd hardly call a couple of non-intellectuals who down vote random posts an "invasion"?! These people have been called out, challenged and refuted many times, and all these people do in return (because they have nothing left to do) is down vote a few posts. What a joke! This is a public Sikhi forum, and all are welcome. Ask, discuss, learn. But when you resort to personal attacks and down voting just for the hell of it, it shows you have no intellectual integrity and, quite frankly, you're finished.

My my, someone has indeed been busy?! This morning I found that 25 of my posts on various threads (some from weeks ago) had been newly down voted. What I find absolutely hilarious is that someone actually took the time from their life to log in to this forum, find all my posts and systematically begin down voting them?! Have I got under your skin that much that all you can do is down vote my posts??. That's absolutely fine by me, no skin off my nose! Sangat ji, this is exactly what I mean. When you cut through the crap and directly challenge their B S, they run like cowards and behave like children. They don't have a leg to stand on. So go ahead, carry on down voting. You're only showing your true colours and proving me right...

And another down vote on my posts. See, this is what I mean when refer to this childish behaviour. "Whoever" is doing this (not that we don't know who it is), please come forward and make your grievances known. No need to be scared. I'd really welcome an intellectual discussion. (We all know that this individual is not going to "come out of the closet", but hey, worth a shot). My original invitation still stands. YOU pick the topic. YOU pick the question. YOU start the thread. And I will personally try and answer your questions intellectually with proof. No insults, no attacks, no antagonising, no need to be scared. You're on a Sikh forum. Might as well learn something while you're here...

Well, let's not make too many "offensive" comments. I don't want him to run away...

Very true. Someone actually took the time to go back over my posts from the past few days and down vote each one (in reverse chronological order). I wonder which "neighbour" of ours is doing this ???

@brotha - you make an interesting point. However, the main reason for my stance is simply to cut through the crap and get to the point. The more we dance around the topic, go off topic and make personal attacks, the more the "opposition" (and i use that term very loosely) gains the opportunity to play the victim card. Which is why if you go through the posts where I respond to @MuslimNeighbour, you'll see that I don't even pay attention to his silly comments and insults, and go straight to answering and refuting his points. I don't want to make this in to a "Sikh vs Muslim" thing. Anyone is welcome on this forum to ask any questions on Sikhi. Period. In our traditions, there is a "kookar drishti" (dog-sighted) and "sher-drishti" (lion-sighted). When you hit both with a stick, the dog will attack the stick, whereas the lion goes straight for the attacker. In the same way, be like the lion and go straight for the points and stick to the topic. Don't be like the dog and fall for the insults. That's exactly what people like that want. So that's why I said, let's do it properly. No animosity, no antagonising, no insults, no attacks, no excuses. Pure and simple intellectual discussion. @MuslimNeighbour, ready when you are...

Love it

@MuslimNeighbour - in many threads you have been answered again and again, but you continue to derail the topics each and every time. Now, in all fairness, that's not entirely your fault, we all do it. And i agree with you, that this is a Sikh forum, and your questions about Sikhi should be answered here without you being personally berated. 100% agree with you on that. So, here's what I propose: YOU pick the question, YOU pick the topic, YOU start the thread. And, without descending in to any personal attacks, we will collectively answer them for you. You can't get much fairer than that. You've now been given this opportunity. Never again in the future say you weren't given a chance. Look forward to your response... And to the rest of the sangat ji, please try and keep it civil and stick to the point. It's such a playground debate tactic when this guy goes off point and we take the bait, then acts like he's being attacked by everyone. Intellectual points made with proof will put this "guest" to sleep ?

See, what I find very interesting is that you haven't answered a single point of the thread you are quoting, and you're just making outlandish claims, all of which have been refuted multiple times, in this thread and others. If you are so sure about your religion, then let's have that debate. You previously attacked the authenticity of the Bible, to which I openly asked if you'd like to discuss the authenticity of the Quran. Unsurprisingly, you haven't even responded to that, and you're just taking unnecessary digs. It's okay, i get it. I guess I'd be scared too if I didn't have a leg to stand on, especially when "the standard narrative has holes in it" (if you know, you know?). Looking forward to hearing from you very soon...

Your comment about the reliability of the New Testament intrigues me. What about the reliability of the Quran? Do you honestly believe that it hasn't been changed? If you like, we can open up another thread and discuss it further, as I'd rather not derail this thread (though by the looks of things, it already has). No insults, no mud slinging, just pure facts on the authenticity of the Quran. What do you say? I look forward to your response...

See, this right here is a perfect example of tu quoque fallacy. You're trying to make the point that mosques being converted (forcibly) to churches is wrong, but when another place of worship is unjustly converted to a mosque (i.e. what's going on in Turkey), you don't hold them to the same standard. This smacks of hypocrisy, and you really need to up your game if you want your points to be taken seriously. Have the intellectual integrity to be consistent with your criticism.

Without wanting to derail this topic, please do remember that it was originally a Christian building , not a mosque, so the historical facts completely undermine what you're saying. As far as the alcohol thing goes, whilst there is an alcohol problem in Punjab (and remember, it's both sides of Punjab), that's a bit of a low blow. And Sikhi is indeed it's own religion...don't really know why you mentioned that?. Finally, request to everyone, please could we try and stay on topic, and not derail an active thread? If you want to discuss a different topic, please start a different thread??.

I suppose it depends on the tactics used. If you're intellectually changing someone's mind in an open and honest way, that's fine. If you're taking advantage of their circumstances and brainwashing them, that of course is bad. But if you're kidnapping, raping or forcing conversion at gunpoint (or knifepoint), that will indeed outrage a community to the fullest.

I understand the OP, when someone screws you over or betrays you (believe me, I know). But it's extremely important not to do something like that. And like everyone else has said, pray for your situation to improve. May Guru Ji bless us all??

The concept of people changing their religion or ideology is nothing new. We all rejoice when someone converts to our religion, yet lament when they leave, and often say "they didn't study the religion well enough" (an excuse I see made mainly by those in the dawah scene). It seems that you can know next to nothing when you convert to the religion, but need some sort of a PhD when you want to leave. I have zero problem with people converting to the religion of their choice. What I find categorically abhorrent is when underhanded tactics/coercion/force are used to gain that conversion. We all have questions about religion/God/faith/liberation/salvation etc. Unfortunately, there are those who would take advantage of our quest for answers and attempt to win us over to their religion. Beware of strangers bearing gifts...

???????????? This is hilarious!!!! Laughing aside, it just goes to show the underhanded tactics of these people. I've got no problem with people preaching and changing their religion, it's all kosher. However, when you intentionally resort to sly methods to manipulate (or even force) people to change their ideology, that is crossing the line.

According to the Kalki Puran and Vishnu Puran, The Kalki Avtar will come at the end of Kaljug. The length of kaljug is 432,000 years. And currently, we're about 5,000 years in to Kalyug. There's plenty of time to before the mighty Kalki Avtar comes...

I completely agree that some people will find arguments of other ideologies more convincing than their own, and would thus "jump ship". And this is true for all faiths, and even those with no faith. What you completely missed is that I didn't address this point at all in my previous post, which makes your assumptions a bit redundant. With regards to those being forced to convert, again, I think you completely missed the point. I never said that it happens all the time, but are you in any way insinuating that it doesn't happen at all? Truth is indeed very ugly at times, isn't it?... Without derailing this topic, I will agree that, in this specific scenario (Christian missionaries), a lot of it is down to parchar (or lack thereof), but also poor living conditions play a big role in this. Look forward to hearing your thoughts...

It is indeed a sad paradigm, where Christian missionaries are taking advantage of the poor conditions (unemployment, no education, lack of health care etc.) of the people, and promising them a better life, not just in this world, but the hereafter. And tbh, if your family is extremely poor, and you have no knowledge about your religion or roots (be it Sikh, Hindu or Muslim), what exactly are you going to do? That's why on some level, I don't blame the poor villagers who convert. They just want a better life for themselves and their families. Hence they fall in to the trap. The blame lies squarely with the other religious organisations (Sikh, Hindu and Muslim) who are not doing enough to look after the poorer members of their community. The only positive I can say about these Christian missionaries is that, at least they're not into forced conversions, grooming, rapes and kidnappings, unlike another community we all know of...