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WJKK WJKF Wow - I'm awad by this - lesson for the entire universe, yes there are the main 5 but they each have 5 Slaves too which leads the number to about 25-30 chors there is a shabad which clarifies this I will post here if anyone wishes. Which paana is it from in SGGS?

WJKK WJKF Guys, Both valid points of argument, and before we try to fine tune and find the utmost true answer, lets get our own bearings correct. If the Guru Jees are God- great , if they are the knower of God or medium -- great. To mankind they were super human beings , the ultimate, the sacrfice is nowhere to be seen, for us mere keree mortals , vishwaas ghaatis to find the most true and correct answer here it would be as they say in panjabi "kehtheee raaam raaam tee kethee teeehan teehan". I've come to a conclustion -Let's try and accept they were Great and follow an iota of their contribution in their footsteps would lead to successful life.-- period

WJKK WJKF 5abiSingh jeeo, Just one point to bear in mind and revolve the idea of symbols, we must come away from this term. In Sikhism, ours are not religous symbols but "articles of faith". There was a great lecture on this very issue by Harinder Singh on SIKHTV just last week you may be able to get hold of it if you contact them. just my 2 cents.

WJKK WJKF only five, I haven't said anywhere that Guru is not Waheguru, just presented it differently apologies for confusion. I'm fully aware of what you say about Guru Gobind Singh Ji and infact I beleive there was NO tent either, since when and where else has Guru Sahiban ever did anything in hiding?? However that is another discussion point. Your points are vaild.

WJKK WJKF Gurbani and SGGS are NOT contradictory at all, it's us and our interpetation that is the biggest issue.We are so quick to jump to SGGS , without taking into account historical sakhis etc. For example sixth Nanak Guru Hargobind Singh Jee maharaj what was their hukham to Baba Atul Jee who went had gone against Akal purkh's hukam of bringing back his friend alive from death.Guru Jee instructed his own son that had gone against the will of the lord either your friend stays or you have to go.Baba Atul Jee as we know left this world for his friend to stay.In Baba Atul's memory there is a bunga in Amritsar. What do we learn from this sakkhi on who is God and Guru Jee?? There are many historical instances as such.

WJKK WJKF The most important, is respect for SGGS. Why not challenge and change oneself and family memebers till we can bring SGGS home,without any future ill feeling and frictions within family members. I know in the 70's and 80's where some monas wanted to do akand paath at home and were advised by the local singhs from the Gurdwara that if they agree to partake amrit Akand paat would be done,otherwise no way. And those local singhs happen to be AKJ singhs..They succeeded as those monas 6months later took amrit and recieved SGGS blessings, in fact their offspring to this day has SGGS at home 3rd generation onwards.That kind of parchar nowadays is out of the window as Akand paats have become business mostly but not entirely.

WJKK WJKF Satkar Jeeo is 100% spot on and it would be great to know if the involved Gurdwaras above have the protocol laid out for their own Gurdwaras in their local towns as in Satkar jee;s post above, before they go on this massive project such as the Sikh council. I say this as in my hometown Gravesend we've had a £13 million Gurdwara just opened up last week but no protocol, no where on the enterance or anywhere in the surrounds is there any mention of the protocol. I have made the committee aware personally who assure me that it will be addressed, I'm sure hopeful that it will, time will tell.

WJKK WJKF OK now that you have clearly acknowledged and respected our forefathers properly, shall we carry on with this debate hopefully to a fruitful end. So what is the solution sir, if tomorrow we have an oppressive regime about to attack the UK and the military is at such a point that the current government is requesting all to take up arms as soldiers. And lets say you are the leader of the so called current educated,not under any illusion intellectual sikhs, what choice would you have? what would be your advice to your group of sikhs and why? and don't forget to read the small print on your british passport before you answer the questions. By the way a Sikh is a saint soldier 24*7 he has a big enough army inside to deal with too

How utterly disrespectful, they gave their lives for the cause which they may not have fully known about but they gave their livelehood. And all you can do is give you utter rubbish of an opinion on these forums with complete disrespect for SAINT SOLDIERS OF THE BOTH WORLD WARS. Let me ask do you always know what your doing and have fully known about it before hand ???? if you answer yes then your an even bigger THICKhead then i can EVEN begin to imagine!1

WJKK WJKF Do we know that the deal for India's independance was for her give the UK millions of men for the war?? Have we not woken up to this fact, so in the end it was for India as well as for the British. Harjeet is spot on I wouldn't it past them for their world order that they want, these farangees are so powerful they created Africa/ and are now making the middle east the next Africa. They create crashes, recsssions,depressions,and recoveries. But I must admit a truth and that is they learn from their mistakes very quickly and adapt and change.If they created the slave trade, they were the first also to bring in human rights law, not India or anyone else out there. We as Sikhs we should be just proud of our forefathers and that is it period!!! instead of bickering whether it was right or wrong for them to join the army. Cause and effect...learn and adapt to such theories in advance is their policy. Sikhroots- great sewa can always rely on you guys for your efforts.

WJKK WJKF Beautiful, priceless, infinite and great seva by Gursikhs who have made this available

WJKK WJKF Maskeen jee was talking of this topic today hers are his words: SGGS clearly states - "so mukh jalooo jo kehh thakur joneee"... Pirs, pekhgambers, Aulayoos's, Guru's - which come to this world and do their duty and go. Then you have sants, brahmgynaees, who continues the same kind of work but are not Guru's or pehghambars. mool mantar clearly states - and describes God - " ajooni" doesn't ever take birth. Please no bashing, just my two cents as I heard maskeen Jee talk on this today on Sikh channel, vichaar was amazing and clarified this question.

WJKK WJKF Great input here , excellent, simple fact and is a known fact as I've seen it happen. The more Gurbani one starts to recite , the more a certainty that bana will ultimately come to the individual.

WJKK WJKF I would say the opposite, it's great Mr. Obama has declined it,do you seriously think the SGPC clowns and puppets can manage the visit properly?

WJKK WJKF I also agree with ak47 - why can't we just start with the basic use what we already have to a greater extent- the satallite signal that is sent from Darbar Sahib is Kirtan only, it would be far better to spend resoruces on posting shabad lines with a basic translation as well as kirtan which is aired at present and is beautiful.

WJKK WJKF ADMINS please ntoe Balbir Singh remarks in a response above - claiming our two high calibre personalities in Sikhism Bhai Gurdaas and Bhai Desa Singh not sikhs quoting "These two personalities are not the Gurus of Sikhs. No Sikh should follow others than his Guru." secondly Balbir singh is no believer in the amrit ceremony and he quotes: "Amrit ceremony is not to believe." And to you Balbir Singh you are no Sikh of the SGGS due the following reasons: 1. attach the word SINGH when you don't beleive how one becomes a singh 2. You're distasteful remarks on Bhai Gurdass and Bhai Desa Singh are unacceptable. 3. You have no Guru Only peacce of advice for you is to delve deeper with respect for Sikh personalitiies and away from your own warped interpetations of SGGS, it will not work Balbir..never will and it never has for personalites such as yourseld, no matter how hard you try. You will if your karms permit you will have to realign your thought process properly at some stage for that I bid you best of Luck especially without no GURU

WJKK WJKF harryss jeeo it was Guru Arjan Dev Ji who gave seal of approval of Bhai Gurdas Jee's vaaars being the key to understanding SGGS hence the more paramount for us to understand and delve deeper in to Bhai Sahib's works. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhai_Gurdas

WJKK WJKF Balbir Singh Jeeo you mention: "Other examples you have provided are from Bhai Gurdaas Jee and Bhai Desa Singh Jee. Are these your Gurus?" Very clever, tell me what you think of these two personalties first then I will respond with my thoughts- stick to the point of my response don't go astray. You mention: "Since hundreds of years preachers are misleading seekers to follow others than the reverend Gurus. Why?" Tell me which ones you think are preaching and misleading seekers and in particular let's start with Bhai Gurdas only , tell where is his preaching wrong?" You mention: "Did Bhai Gurdaas Jee and Bhai Desa Singh Jee ever hear and say something like that?" You have a nerve don't you to question such high claibre personalities? Tell me why did you not answer my question " Do you believe in the amrit ceremony have you taken amrit???" Admins-- What type of personalites do you have in quality control this is madness or am I going mad??

WJKK WJKF Balbir Singh Jeeo you mention "No Guru has suggested doing Simran of the word Vaheguru. Still, many techniques and ways are used to do Simran of the word Vaheguru. What has happened?" Are you serious?? what's happened is kalyug has given birth to souls such as yourself who are lost on the basics, please do some real discovery and research. No need to belittle and make a mockery of your distored view on Gurushabad. Below is STARK enough evidence that Gurmantar is Vaheguru. Do you equate yourself to Bhai Gurdaas Jee, Bhai Desa Singh .....Admins why haven't you banned such people who distort the basics and present their views on a SIKH sangat forum? Truth is crytsal clear below : , one has to japp to experience it. I wonder if you're even amrit dhari,? are you? ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਪਿ ਮੀਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਦਰਬਾਰੇ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ "Chant and meditate: “Guru, Guru”, O my friend. Your face shall be radiant in the Court of the Lord. ||1||Pause||" (Gaurree, Ang 190, Sri Guru Granth Sahib) ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲੈ ਪਿਰਮ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਚੁਪ ਚਲੋਲਾ॥ "The Guru's word he receives is "Vaheguru", the wondrous Lord, and remains silently immersed in delight.” (Vaar 4, Bhai Gurdaas Ji, Contemporary of Guru Arjan Dev Ji) Bhai Gurdaas Ji ‘re-emphasises’ Guru Nanak Sahib Ji’s Mantar, which he blessed the Sikhs with. The Mantar, which is recorded in Gurbani and also bestowed upon Sikhs by the Panj Piaare: ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪ ਹਉਮੈਂ ਖੋਈ ॥ ਆਪ ਗਵਾਏ ਆਪ ਹੈ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀ ਪਰੋਈ ॥13॥ "The Gurmantar is "Vaheguru", through reciting which erases egotism. Losing egotism and merging into the qualities of the supreme Lord, he himself becomes full of qualities." ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਿਤ ਬਚਨ ਉਚਾਰੇ ॥ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੋ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਧਾਰੈ ॥ “He/she repeats the True Name of 'Vaheguru' daily. He/she enshrines Vaheguru in his heart.” (Rehatnaama Bhai Desa Singh)

WJKK WJKF Great post, however I feel "Kaam" isn't just lust, over the years of research, the correct interpetation concludes to be "DESIRE" - which is very powerful even more powerful than fear.. I could be wrong just my 2 cents.

WJKK WJKF Channell all your feelings towards SGGS at your local Gurdwara try and make a habit or daily or every other day visit. Do joraa de seva while you're there it works wonders. 3 things are of real important once in this kind of rut: 1. mental - meditation, naam simran increase your time as much as possible 2. Physical - exercise - in any form especially of a cardio nature , the endorphins alone produced by waheguru will make you feel positive and vibrant. 3. spiritual reading of a hgher nature than any human- well SGGS is plenty to read , doesn't matter if you don't understand it, just start listening or reading with love, understanding , vichaar comes later, however once can do that daily even better.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11444022

WJKK WJKF If one were to listen to his veechaars , he seems very knowledgable, but if he has done a bad deed then at least let us know exactly what kind of nature is this bad deed.?

WJKK WJKF Excellent ----if there were more posts like this on this site, we may actually be able to discuss and find out the best practices that bring about such changes.

WJKK WJKF Many Thanks for the information on Gulshan