Pyara

This is the dangerous trap. We can focus so much on identifying the external enemy and neglect the crap sitting on our own doorstep. It's just the way group dynamics work, nothing causes a group to galvanise like the existence of an external enemy does. Look at the way EDL formed up from nothing, if they didn't target an external enemy in the muslim these belligerent lagar louts had nothing to gel them together. Saying that Mohan Singh/SAS provide necessary niche parchar which has been responsible for an increase in vigilance in many Sikh parents. A level of awareness of an external enemy is important, however not to the level that we continually rely on demonising them.

I fully agree with your comments above. Things seemed so much less complicated 7 years ago!

We had to suffer the pain of watching our elders punch the pugs of each other during Gurdwara elections or heated panthic discussions The hope was that the youth learnt to manage and accept differences in opinions in a Gursikh way!

Look forward to it. I hope Sangat TV have sorted the techinical issues out.

It's all selective hearing and interpretations. If I remember correctly, the discussion show was pretty generic and non-specific but it obviously challenged the comfortable "norm" some of the current committee members want to maintain. It shows how selective and censored parchar actually is nowadays. Sikh Channel just side with whoever makes the most noise and whoever gives them more brownie points. At the end of the day the committee are seen as more influential than the normal Sikh on the street. I think the youth need to pool their dd's together and use it as an influence tool with all the Sikh TV Channels with the aim of getting the right kind of parchar out there. One dd on for £15 month has no impact but 100 dds at £1500/month has more impact. If 100 members of sikhsangat pooled their dd's into one than we could have a stronger swing in the TV channels and not have our voices suppressed by the same bland parbhandak who monopolise the stages.

LOL. I just rung Sikh Channel and ended up on the queue for a live show! For a minute I thought I was live on air.... Anyways, rang again and had an interesting conversation with a lady on the phone. She said that they "don't" repeat live shows, which I said was not true from previous showings. Then she said that if there are objections to content of a live show they don't show them again. I asked her if there was an objection to the above youth show broadcast live last Sunday, to which she replied that there had been some complaints about the content from some Gurdwara Presidents! She wouldn't give me the specifics. The show must have really rattled some cages! I thought it was pretty balanced...

Have you contacted the Sikhs of Kenya and Tanzania? Are they able to exercise some influence over their Gov't to help Sikhs in SA? There is a Sikh MP in Tanzania. See link below http://www.sikhnet.com/news/parmukh-singh-hoogan-only-sikh-member-parliament-tanzania

This should be good! A humble benti to Sangat TV camera/studio crew, please can you review the way you are currently presenting your live format. The differing back drop colours and extreme close up shots on faces break the continuation feel of a live discussion show. The subject is important, but if not captured on camera in a compelling continuous way, the impact of the message can be lost. Just my "technical" feedback. Sangat TV is doing a great job!

The youth discussion show normally get's repeated Saturday afternoon at 2.30pm... I think!

The danger of putting someone on a pedestal is we are not seeing them, we are seeing only an ideal and those aspects of them that we want to see. Tommorrow when the case/trial scripts become public then the newspapers, the internet could be full of stories which in turn "may" paint a picture about a fallen hero who did not live up to the ideal expectations we allowed to be fashioned. Yes, we all have avguns and are not perfect, but we have to be careful about over hyping someone into a perfect ideal especially if there is uncertainty about the circumstances around what happened.

So true. I see all these prabhandaks and spokespersons now appearing on Sikh TV in a boost to increase direct debits. Sorry, but can't help thinking that these guys are capitalising on the whole unfortunate incident.

Even if we go back over 100 years we know the British created the categorisation of Martial Race which classified the empire into one of two categories: 'Martial' and 'Non-Martial'. Sikhs fell into this category, where a 'martial race' was typically considered brave and skilled for fighting.The 'non-martial races' were those whom the British believed to be unfit for battle because of their sedentary lifestyles. "Race" in 19th-century terminology corresponded to the contemporary term "ethnic group", and was therefore not used in the sense of the modern notions of race.

It does depend on your interpretation of ethnic. "An ethnic group is a group of human individuals who share a common, unique self-identity. An ethnic group is also called a "people" or a "people group." Some words used to refer to a group as a separate ethnic group are: tribe, clan, nation, lineage, family, society, community and heritage. Religion is one primary ethnic characteristic that may be so strong that it causes a definite boundary within a group of persons that are otherwise identical. In this case, religion is a sufficient reason to list a group as a separate ethnic group. " Certainly, in terms of community dynamics, I fail to see the disadvantages of being recognised as a distinct community for socio-political gain in the UK. It can only be an advantage. We need to realise that mahapursh's like Sant Baba Puran Singh Kerichowalay advised the UK Sikh sangat on officially recognising our unique identity 30 years ago in the form of an ethnic group. This concept is not something new.

There's more info on this website. http://sikhcensus.org/ Why is the Census important for Sikhs and how will it make a difference? Completing the Census form is very important for Sikhs as it is an opportunity for every Sikh to be counted. The amount of money our council has to spend on services is based on population statistics from the Census. That is why it is so important that everyone takes part. Here are some socio-political matters that can be influenced • Culturally sensitive services e.g. Sikh doctors and nurses, • Sikh child care services, • Sikh home care/ day centre services for elderly, • Transport for the disabled. • Appropriate values based education e.g. schools & nurseries, free courses, library services etc. • Employment help. • Funding for charities and other community projects. • Our identity, values, ethics and cohesion for generations to come.

I have noticed a problem that many Sikhs are openly claiming they will still classify themselves as Indian. I have received a barrage of text messages from ill-informed Sikhs who seem to want to interpret the whole Sikh ethnic classification campaign as an attack on their "Indian-ness" by hardcore Khalistani fundamentalists. Anyone got a template text regarding the benefits to the UK Sikh community of the Sikh Ethnic classification. I thought something along the lines: "Without recording "Sikh" in the census we will not receive the recognition and resources our community deserves. The simple example is Healthcare and Support for elderly Sikhs can be targeted specifically for our needs and our elders won't get incorrectly catered for under the "Asian" category." Anyone else able to help with a good narrative regarding benefits to text out ? This needs to be actioned fast before misinterpretations lead to people making the wrong decisions on the Cenus form.

Please Admin, put the link in your banner above. This is so important for UK Sikhs to action.

I agree. There's too many rumours flying around. This is slowly turning into a "Trial by Media" where the impact of the internet and tabloid newspaper coverage is already creating a widespread perception of guilt regardless of the true facts and any verdict in a court of law. As the case unfolds we will find out the full truth and it may even differ to the speculation created by the media and on this forum.

, p Southal Youth, perhaps you missed the LiveYouth Show on Sikh Channel last night where a tribute was paid to Gagandeep Singh's acievements and 1 minute of simran was done. I never knew Gagandeep Singh to any deep level, I only met him a few times and we simply exchanged fatehs. If anything we had some minor "sikhsangat.com internet forum" disagreements on threads over viewpoints. However, regardless of the circumstances of this death, the things that strike me about Gagandeep Singh was his age, his commitment to relevant Sikh issues and his accomplishments in such a short timeframe. Regardless of having different opinions (which seem so petty now). One thing that I can take back from his life was that he was a "doer", whilst most of us just grumble about Sikh issues and the state of leadership/jathebhandi's etc people like Gagandeep Singh step forward and made attempts to make positive changes, to be heard, he had major input in setting up/running a Student body (BSSF) and a Sikh TV channel. That's some pretty big achievements. The main thing I will respectfully remember Gagandeep Singh for is during the Grays Gurdwara Satkaar Campaign Morcha when he ensured a full coach bound for a BSSF programme in Birmingham was re-directed to join other Sikhs in the protest outside the party hall in Grays, Essex. He obviously had an appreciation of what the greater issue was and I know from personal experiences that most other jathebhandis/organisers would never risk loosing numbers or attendees at their programmes. That in my eyes will always deserve respect. I honestly don't care about the circumstances around his death but I would like to say that we should look for some inspiration in the achievements of this individual and take back that the issues of the panth are greater than any of our personal issues.

Live Youth Discussion show on Sikh Channel (sky 840) this Sunday (27 Feb 2011) at 7pm about the Hondh Chillar Massacre. There will be a panel and studio audience.

I gathered that too, thanks for giving some clarity on what libel law actually is. I think 30 years of these types of committees using lawyer's letters to suppress members of the sangat who challenge them has simply made us into darpoks. I came across this joke once "What's the difference between a lawyer and a boxing referee?", Ans "A boxing referee doesn't get paid more for a longer fight." That I think sums up what some lawyers are about. Anyway, called up the Gurdwara again and asked to speak to committee member Mr Darshan Atwal (who I was advised to call by the pervious man who picked up the Gurdwara phone). This person who now picked up the phone asked me why I am calling. I told him I wanted to speak to Mr Darshan Atwal regarding the Sikh Cultural Centre and this man said that meat and sharab has been served in the Sikh Centre for 20 years, why are "amritdharis" making an issue now, I asked him why he thought only "amritdharis" see this as an issue, he didn't reply and put the phone down on me. How very rude! I just wanted to have a courteous dialogue with Mr Darshan Atwal on the matter.

I called the Gurdwara number and got through to someone who wouldn't tell me if he's part of the committee or the granthi. I asked him about the meat, sharab in the hall, to which he just kept on saying he's a "Guru Ka Sewak" and knows nothing. I asked him that if you are Guru Ji's sewak you should know about these bad things happening in your Gurdwara. He told me that he just does what sewa he's meant to do and that's it, he doesn't want to get involved in anything else. It's an embarrassment that our community operate as sheep ignoring what happens and just carrying on with the status quo even if it's clearly against basic Sikh principle. No wonder we're in such a mess. People like this need to take responsibility and not hide behind a smokescreen of "humble sewa". It's because we have a collection of numb people who call themselves Sikhs but simply "cut & paste" their issues manipulating the truth to justify having to do nothing. This man said to call back later and to speak to the main members of the committee (he mentioned the names but I guess the Committee's libel lawyers will hunt this post down and send a letter to sikhsangat admin threatening legal action for disclosing these names which are publically available anyway!).

They use a studio when it comes to having other recorded programmes. I can't see why they don't urgently record a show for this issue. Sikh TV interview non entities like Sukhsinder Shinda and Shin in some kind of studio and Sangat TV are the masters of repeat showings of various studio interviews. Why have they not actioned this? They want to be voices for Sikhi, then they need to act like real time voices of Sikhi. If they're not escallating Sikh issues like this, then they're better off packing their cameras! (assuming they actually own one..)

Did Sangat TV and Sikh TV do anything more than a scroll on the bottom of the screen? We don't expect a channel to just put a poxy text scroll, how serious does that make the issue! The coverage on TV has been dismal. Maybe I missed it but only Sikh Channel covered the issue on Saturday and Sunday evening on prime time. Haven't seen anything else otherwise..

Breakdown in communication, admin issues, system failures etc etc! You just can't get the right calibre of staff nowadays! Maybe we're just better off getting on with our lives...

Excellent idea. Another great way of using the Gurdwara Community Halls for the benefit of the community. Well done Leeds Sangat.