rollingpunjab

well i also used to think similarly...but slowly i realised that if you tie your turban 2 mm above, it wont cause any problem...try covering 2 mm lesser portion of your eye brows...and then you can slide in the spectacles in second larh fro one side and as usual from the other side..! now with this idea i ve observed that ray banlooks far better on sikhs rather than others...of course u need to keep the frame thin...!!!

yes indeed separate sikh independent sikh state was offered by the britishers to the sikh leaders...though we may never be able to know whether it was a true offer for sikhs welfare or just to dissociate sikhs from congress and hindus or for some other british interests...it is because the offers were never put on the papers due to lack of interest by sikh leaders...Kindly have a look at the following notes--- 1) In the year 1932, at the time of the second Round Table Conference, the British Government through Sardar Bahadur Shivdev Singh, then a member of the Indian Secretary of State's Council, made an informal proposal to the Sikhs that if they dissociate finally with the Congress movement, they would be given such a decisive political weightage in Punjab, as would lead to their emerging a third independent element in India and the British transfer power to inhabitants of this subcontinent. Master Tara Singh promptly rejected the tempting offer. 2) In the early winter of 1946, Cabinet Mission, while at Delhi communicated to the Sikhs through the Sardar Baldev Singh that if the Sikhs determined not to part company with India, the British Parliament, in their solicitude for the Sikh people, prepared to so frame the Independence Act of India, that in respect of the Sikh Homeland, wherever these areas might eventually go, in Pakistan or India, no Constitution shall be formed such as does not have the concurrence of the Sikhs. But Sardar Baldev Singh, in consultation with the Congress leaders, summarily rejected this offer, which went even beyond assurances given by the majority community in 1929 and in 1946 by Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru in Calcutta. 3) In April 1947, Mr. Jinnah, in consultation with certain most powerful leaders of the British Cabinet in London, offered to the Sikhs, first through Master Tara Singh and then through the Maharaja of Patiala, a sovereign Sikh state comprising areas lying in the west of Panipat and east of the left bank of the Ravi river on the understanding that this State then confederates with Pakistan on very advantageous terms to the Sikhs. But Master Tara Singh summarily rejected this attractive offer. The Maharaja of Patiala declined to accept it in consultation with Sardar Patel and Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru. 4) In the month of May, 1947, precisely on the 17th May, Lord Mountbatten, Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, Nawab Liaqat Ali Khan and Sardar Baldev Singh, flew to London on the invitation of the British Cabinet, in search of final solution of the Indian communal problem. When the Congress and the Muslim League failed to strike any mutual understanding and Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru decided to return to India, the British Cabinet leaders conveyed to Sardar Baldev Singh that if he stays behind, arrangements might be made: "So as to enable the Sikhs to have political feet of their own on which they may walk into the current of World History." Sardar Baldev Singh promtly divulged the contents of this confidential offer to Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru and in compliance with the latter's wishes, declined to stay back and flew back to India after giving the following brave message to the Press: "The Sikhs have no demands to make on the British except the demand that they should quit India. Whatever political rights and aspirations the Sikhs have, they shall have them satisfied through the goodwil of the Congress and the majority community." The British leaders had asked Sardar Baldev Singh to stay behind because the wanted to propose to him that if Sikhs were not ready to enter into the agreement with Muslims, then the Sikhs could be given an independent state which extended from Panipat to Nanakana Sahib with extended excess upto the seashore. The Britishers were ready to station 25,000 British troops and war equipment for ten years and provide help in the administration provided the Sikhs agreed to provide 50,000 soldiers be stationed at Singapore and other colonies to help the Britishers for the next ten years. After ten years the agreement could be reconsidered. Through this agreement the administration and defence of independent Khalistan would have been ensured and there would have been no need to enter into an agreement with either India or Pakistan for the purposes of their administration and defence. Even Muslim League had agreed this proposal because it would give then strong buffer state between Pakistan and India. It was also in the interest British empire as they would still have their feet in this sub-continent. But was unfortunate that there was no leader among the Sikhs with political vision foresight who could see the benefits such an arrangement and demand independent Homeland for the Sikhs. Sirdar Kapur Singh has also mentioned the same points in his speech in indian parliament on 6th september 1966...coupled with the betrayl of the congress leadership...hence it is totally a wrong thing to rule out the possibility of a separate sikh state being offered to the sikhs...however as i said earlier it is not possible to find how much substane these offers carried as sikh leaders rejected these at the very first stage and were never put on the papers...!

not because she is modelling, but she is by no means a sikh...and she says that she is sikh model...she is not following even the single sikh tenent...a sikh model is a big thing and difficult thing to do...the world after seeing her on TV would not say how beautiful and graceful sikh girls are...but would say how s**y sikh girls are...it wouldproject sikh girls in bad light and accepting such girls as sikh models would encourage other sikh girls to go same way...now tel me are these girls capable of holding themselves to their roots...such girls should not be encouraged as "sikh" model...ofcourse if she would have projected herself as yet another model from india...none would have given a damn...!

lets be khalsa first rather than khalistanis...when we will become true khalsa, all of us who claim to be the folower of SGGS...unity will be there itself and khalsa raaj or true khalistan will be there itself...which father would provide his bank balance, keys of his safe to kid who ius spoiled and irresponsible...yes we are today damn spoiled and highly irresponsible...we do not deserve a independence...when sons were good with lot of kamai and rehet...Satguru Himself provided khalsa Raaj to His sons...when they started loosing directions provided by Satguru...they lost their khalsa Raaj...! So we are required to be true Khalsa first...Khalistan would not be a big deal then...!

ajj ik hor sant bhindrawala chahida hai...we need another sant jarnail singh ji khalsa bhindranwale...who would possess the all round capability of being fierce soldier and saint simultaneously...also he/she should be able to reach masses and educate them about sikhi...another revolution within sikh community is required which would show the right path to the sikh youth...but it is pretty difficult...today nobody possess the chrismatic personality of Sant ji...we do have good parcharaks but none is allrounder like sant ji who was able to behave as per the situation prevailing...!

that may be right...but his followers have started deh pratha in sikhism to such an extent that they have even mixed kriyas like hawans etc. in sikhism...they dont believe in SGGS being the Guru and no khande di pahul as well...believe in keeping kesh...thats it...dont elieve in rest of the k's...spend their life wearing white chola and white turban...which Sikh maryada told us to do so...it must be made by the following so called Gurus...!

Body is not Guru then what Guru did take birth and which Guru was/is apart of birth. It's contradicting statement to say Guru is not the body and then say they took birth and are not Akal Purakh. well...it is not contradicting...body cannot be a Guru...the jot inside the body is Guru...once the jot is out of the body...it is nothing...that roohani jot now rests in SGGS...The Shabad Guru...the shabad has been Guru...but how would shabad evolve in the world without any carrier...the carrier is the body of the Guru Saahibs...they gave the shabad to us...tried to attach us with it and then left their body...after achieving their task...now that we have shabad Guru in form of SGGS we dont need any deh to guide us...the shabad itself is an utmost guidance and our conscience as developed by Sikh Guru Saahibs by their deeds in their entire life span which are again in agreement with the Shabad...is all we need to understand the message of shabad Guru...!

yes...we can hope that...Aggey Rabb dee Marzi...!

there is a possibility that khalsa would rise again in future and somebody would lead the khalsa and awaken the unconcious spirit of khalsa...I dont deny this fact...but the person may again be a leader or parcharak of highest order without any fear of anybody...somewhat like Sant Jarnail singh ji bhindranwale...who would again attach us with the message of Guru Sahibans and true sikhi and who would qgqin be under the command of SGGS for spirituality...he/she will be follower of the 10 Gurus in Deh swaroop and 11 th Guru as SGGS...he/she may not call himself/herself the Guru...the better thing to say is God would appoint somebody from the world to resurface khalsa and awake him from a long sleep...it could be anybody...even you...!

there were enumerable incidents which were to follow after Guru Nanak...like creation of Gurmukhi, providing methodology to remove evils from society like castiesm, sati, providing a direction to the panth to become saint soldier, evoking the political aspect of sikh panth...this was necessary because if sikhs wouldnt have been taught to fight for their rights, to fight for panth...panth would have been lost by now...look what happened to buddhists and jainis....Naam simran will provide you spiritual power and all the Guru sahibs in deh form established the connection of sikh with shabad and also provide directions to preserve the shabad...that wouldnt have happened had Guruship been given to Guru Granth sahib immidiately after Guru Nanak Dev ji...it was the Plan of Lord Almighty himself...who are we to interfere...?

The deh is not Baani in any sense...if it would have been baani...there were enumerable mahapurukhs in world who spend every single second of their life in uttering baani...but they are no more and are not even talked about today...but baani is still there...it didnt die with them...baani possess no deh...there is a difference between Guru and parcharaks...Guru is above Parcharak...and many of todays so called Gurus may be regarded as parcharaks...but not Guru themselves...the Dehdaari Guruship has been finished with the deh of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib...but his words are intact with us in form of baani...which is a Guru...!!!! Akal Puruk would send somebody to destroy the evils and would not take birth himself....No sikh Guru was Akal Purukh himself...they are said to be the "roop of akal purukh"...! yes we should not insult any religion...but yes we got every right to answer those who try to insult our very existence and identity...like naamdharis or radha soamis or nirankaris...they should be answered whenever required and in befitting manner...! Never ever a sikh should bow in front of anybody...not even in front of saint or gurmukh...a sikh must greet him/her with respect...being a holy soul...but greeting somebody and bowing in front of somebody are different things...you can greet somebody by touching his/her feet...or by saing Sat Sri Akal or by saying Fateh....this is respect...bowing on other hand refers to gifting yourself to the person whom you are bowing and considering that person being the driver of your life...that is Guru...and the Lord Almighty...!

Brother I dont know, from which website I got that article...but this article was published in sikh review magazine of 1967....the magazine also contained photocopies of original document which was discovered at Patna...the article is indeed dateless and authorless but put a full stop on the theories produced by many dehdaari gurus that gurusgip was confered to them (especially naamdharis and nirankaris)...these sects say that Guruji escaped from the funeral pyre to "save" himself from mughals...while sikhs say that Guru sahib left the world with His Body and horse Dilbagh...however...Naamdhari story seems pretty false...simply because Guru Gobind Singh ji who throughout their life time kept teaching his sikhs, not to be afraid of problems and enemies...would himself "slip" away trying to save his life from enemies...the Sikh theory makes it more compliated when they say that Guruji left alongwith his body and nothing was left behind except kirpan...isnt it some chamatkaar or what...which is against sikh beliefs and why would Guru Sahib do it without there being any concrete reason...? allright we can say that Guru Nanak Dev ji also dissappered leaving behind flowers to distributed equally among hindus and muslims...but in case of Guru Gobind Singh ji...there was nothing left behind...thats a strong reason for me to belive the author of this article...!

yes Guru Sahib may not ask us...But do we possess the right to atleast listen to His hukum or know about it...now when did Guru Granth Sahib conferred the Guruship to any dehdaari baba...when did that happen...? considering your last post...what I could understand is Guru Gobind Singh ji conferred Guruship to SGGS and then it was conferred further to somebody else...where is that hukumnama from either Guru Gobind Singh ji or SGGS...when was it first read...who read it and who conveyed to the sikhs...can you answer this please...?

well here I am posting the left over part of my previous posts...here the author is comparing the this article with the various other panthic Granths and other works in this regard... ADDITIONAL COMMENTS Probable Date of the Document ------------------------------- The great historical event of the ascension of Guru Gobind Singh and a number of incidents associated with it have been a baffling problem for writers on Guru Gobind Singh's life. The sage-poet Bhai Vir Singh devoted nearly fifty years to the completion of his monumental fictional biography of Guru Gobind Singh, "Kalgidhar Chamatkar", but he is silent and avoids wriring about the death scene of Guru Gobind Singh. This historical document, the author and date of which are still unknown has helped me to reconstruct the historical sequence of all the events of Guru Gobind Singh's last days. It will be noticed that all the versions of old historical documents differ considerably, and when read separately each appears to contradict the other. But on some of the very vital points they say the same things and they quote the same words. The probable date of this historical document can be assessed by comparing it to the oldest historical records. NOTES & COMMENTS [2] At this time the army was marching southwards towards Burhanpur, Guru Gobind Singh, one of the descendents of Nanak, had come into these districts to travel and accompanied the royal camp. He was in the habit of constantly addressing assemblies of worldly persons, religious fanatics and all sorts of people. "Twarik-he-Bahadur-Shahi", Eliot VII 566. [3] Poet Sainapat also says in "Guru Sobha Granth": (a) "gae manzil dar manzil aise sidhae tabai sah ke katak ke nikat ae cale sah ke sath hi sath mano..." (p.97) (b) "ghane kuc kine kite divs lae suni thaur nander hai nam taka kia dham tahi guru nam jaka" © "nagar nander basat bisala jit mai rahen dhani narjala adipuri satyug te basi darbh adhik te diragh lasi" [4] "Sidhas" and "nathas" represent the "Saiva" school of thought which has dominated South Indian philosophy ever since the pre-Aryan period. The "Sivamahapurana" and "Atma Samarpana" gives the names of 28 "yogacaryas" having four disciples each, most of whom resided in [/b]South India. [5] "pathan baca": This record does not give the name of the pathan. "Suraj Prakash" gives it as Gul Khan, and describes him as grandson of Painda Khan, son of Sandhai Khan. Kavi Santokh Singh says that he came from the village Chatmir in the Jullundher District where his mother advised him to go to Guru Gobind Singh who was the "Pir" of Pirs. "Akhbarat Darbar Maula" gives the name of the assassin as Jamshaid Khan, an Afghan. This name appears to be correct. [6] This is the first record which gives the age of the Pathan assassin. In a manuscript, "Chatarjugi", by Bhagwan Singh which I found in the possession of the late Bhai Vir Singh, it is stated that the Pathan was 'Sirhindi'. He may not have been from Sirhind, but this indicates that he was sent by the Nawab of Sirhind. [7] Special visitors and those who brought messages from some well-known personalities were duly announced and then received in audience. Visitors who were close friends, relatives or messengers were generally given the honour to sit near the Guru and the Guru personally inquired about their welfare and the welfare of those whose message the man brought. The author of "Chatarjugi" says that this Pathan first went to Delhi and met Mata Sundri. Probably he knew the Holy Mother personally. The Holy Mother directed him to go to Deccan. The intimacy with which he was received shows that the young Pathan and his parents were known to Guru Gobind Singh, and the Pathan also knew quite a lot about the Guru's Darbar and household which enabled him easy access. [8] The Pathan being quite young might not have personal relationship with the Guru. But it appears that he carried with him an introductory letter or some sort of credential from some Muslim friend of Guru Gobind Singh. [9] Kavi Santokh Singh also says that five "ashrafis" were given. [10] Poet Sainapati points out that on the first day he found too many people around Guru Gobind Singh, even at the moment of retiring. As he did not get a chance to kill the Guru he went away. He came again after two or three days but finding no opportunity went away. [11] Sainapati says that he came again after 2 or 3 days but finding no opportunity went away. But it is quite probable that he came the very next day after being shown so much honour. [12] Suraj Prakash Ain 2 Ansu 17. [13] Sri Gur Sobha: Sainapati, p.101 [14] Although poet Sainapati is not sure after how many days the Pathan came back again, as he has only heard about the incident from some people: "suni sakh aisai". He says that he came many times but did not get a chance to attack. [15] Sainapati agrees that the Guru offered him "prasad", which he ate. [16] This is the first document which says that the Pathan attacked just when Guruji was about to leave the congregation hall and not as Sainapati says, in his bedroom when he was sleeping. For 3 days the Pathan had been planning to kill and run away and this was possible only at the time and place he chose. [17] Poet Sainapati says that the Pathan made only one attack while Guruji was sleeping, and he was killed before he made another attack. Guruji shouted: 'Is there no one nearby.' "kari ap avaj hai ant koi". Two of his companions were seen running away. They were killed by the Sikhs: "bhaje tah sathi ghane singh dhae liai mar dono nahi jan pae." (Sri Guru Sobha) [18] Kavi Santokh Singh makes the circumstances leading to the attack unbelievably absurd by saying that Guru Gobind Sing, tempted the Pathan to take revenge of his grandfather, Paindai Khan, who was killed by Guruji's grandfather Guru Hargobind. Just before allowing him to stab him, he takes a little opium as sedative. When Guruji is actually stabbed he calls for his disciples and kills the Pathan. But even in this fantastic and self-contradictory version he states that the Pathan made three attacks. He missed the first two and only the third one hit the Guru. The description of the actual attack is very realistic and tallies with this record: "jamdhar nagan hath mai dhari samukh ridai ko jabai calai trasat hath kampat gaio pun ekal hi prabh ko her bhuj ke tare gayo so // pun dhar dhir tisro mara tat chin sri prabh // prahario parabh ko tak praharan kari gai nehphal nahi pavisi jae tan ko tanak ghav neh bheo jamdhar mari dusar ber lagi na tan ko thire jujhar lag udar mai ketak phara udar pathan sat ko phario." (Suraj Prakash Ain 2:19) The author of "Bahadur-Shah-Nama" also says: 'The Afghan...stabbed him twice or thrice with a poniard.' It appears Guruji evaded the first two attacks aimed at the heart, but while he was himself about to draw his dagger for self defense the Pathan attacked him in the side. The very next moment Guruji gave him a fatal blow which was followed by an attack on him by Guruji's bodyguards, who must have been at a distance. [19] Bhai Santokh Singh, author of "Gurbilas Patshai Dasvin" states that the "hakims" of the Emperor were immediately acquired; "dhyae" 29:47,48. [20] Both "Suraj Prakash" and "Gurbilas" Sukha Singh support this: (i) "Gurbilas" Sukha Singh, "Adhya" 29.49. (ii) "Suraj Prakash Ain" 2:19,17 Kavi Santokh Singhadds that Guruji did not consider it proper to punish any relatives or friends of the assassin. [21] The physicians and surgeons bandaged the wound by 10:30 P.M. and according to "Gurbilas" Sukha Singh they were given precious gifts as a mark of gratitude. (Gurbilas Patshai Dasvin) [22] Sainapati says that after three or four days Guruji started giving audience. (Sri Guru Sobha: 21 790) Kavi Santokh Singh says that in 15 days the wound was completely healed. [23] This is the first historical record which from definite knowledge gives the exact number of days Guruji lived on earth after the stabbing incident. He traces the events very realistically and gives the days, dates and time without doubting and without saying like other authors on this incident that they had only heard about it and were not quite definite about anything. [24] Kavi Sainapati only hints at it: "karo beg parsad aisai batayo". Gur Sobha. Gurbilas of Sukha Singh and following him Kavi Santokh Singh gives more details. [25] Guru Gobind Singh, not only gave strict instructions that no one should mourn him but started the joyful celebration of his departure before he breathed his last. [26] Kavi Santokh Singh suggests that Guruji also took a little food and then went into solitude. Sukha Singh says that food was distributed on Wednesday. As Guruji passed away on Thursady night, the sacramental food must have been distributed on Thursday afternoon. The time given by Kavi Santokh Singh is after 6 hours of the day had passed i.e. between 11:30 AM and 12:30 PM. [27] The pitching of the tent wall is supported by most of the early records. It had one of the two significances: Either Guruji wished to leave his body at the time appointed by the Divine Will or he wanted to prevent devout Sikhs from jumping into the funeral pyre, as some of them did at the cremation of Guru Hargobind. (see additional comments) [28] Poet Sainapati gives the time of passing away as past midnight. As he depends for his information on what he has heard, he describes the end as completely unexpected and sudden. According to him Guruji suddenly woke up, awakened his Sikhs in a hurry and saying 'Vahguru ji ki Fateh', breathed his last in a matter of minutes. then probably relying on some other information, he says that he gave his last sermon to the Khalsa and gave specific instructions about their future loyalty as disciples. The two things contradict each other. [29] This is supported by all historical records with slight variation: See Gurbilas, Sukha Singh; Suraj Prakash Ain 2:23:9; Gur Sobha, Sainapat, Adhya:18:41,810 [30] (i) "das mehlan ki padiai bani; acut sukh pavoh nirbani" Gurbilas: Sukha Singh (ii) "padiai sabh guran ki bani; rakhiai rehat jo hamai bikhani" Suraj Prakash The instruction to study the bani of all the Gurus indicate two things: Guru Gobind Singh's religious bani was to be treated at par with the bani of other Gurus. Although some Gurus did not contribute any bani, all the ten Gurus were to be treated as one in spirit and the Guru Granth was to be the embodiment of the Spirit of all the ten Gurus. See also "Rehatnama". Bhai Desa Singh and Rehatnama Bhai Caupa Singh. [31] In the 'Ardas' composed by Guru Gobind Singh long before his death the invocation of the nine Gurus is followed by Guruji's own assurance of being the saviour of his true disciples: "sabh thain hoe sahae". The same assurance is given before he leaves the body: "khalsa so jin tan man dhan akal purakh nu saunpia" - Khalsa is he who has dedicated his mind, body and soul to the Supreme being. Rahatnama, Bhai Daya Singh. (ii) "Guru srup khalsa hyiai; janaki tehal parmsukh lahyiai" - The Khalsa is the living image of the Guru. Serving him one attains the highest bliss. Rahatnama, Bhai Desa Singh. [32] According to Sainapati the cremation ceremony was performed immediately after Guruji breathed his last. This was quite natural as everything was ready for cremation. But the story given by Suraj Prakash and some others is different. Guruji went behind the tent-wall, sat in fulldress on the funeral pyre and breathed his last. While he left his body, he lighted the funeral pyre, with yoga-agni, the fire of yoga. The version given by this manuscript is more realistic and probable. Only the Panj Pyaras were allowed to light the funeral pyre. Everyone else was kept at a distance. Guru Gobind Singh did not want any of his remains to be preserved or worshipped. Like Guru Amar Das he also made it clear that it was a moment of joy for him and should not be mourned by anyone. (See Gurbilas Sukha Singh)

PLEASE READ THE WHOLE TEXT I AM POSTING HERE... The Sikh Review ***************************** This article was published in the Sikh Review, January 1967 Editors Comments: This article is based on a recently discovered manuscript, and throws a new light on the last 20 days of Guru Gobind Singh's earthly sojourn. It is reproduced below (with slight modifications) from the October 1963 issue of the Sikh Review, in order to make a biographical account of Guru Gobind Singh's life and teachigs. ***** Note: The photocopy of the historic document referred to in the article was also published in the magazine. ******************************************************************************** GURU GOBIND SINGH'S ASCENSION Dr. Trilochan Singh The Guru period of Sikh history is at once the most interesting and most difficult one, in which a writer of history requires an unwavering inquisitiveness to search more and more material, a special aptitude an uncanny intution to reconstruct important historical facts in the true image and ideals of the Gurus, which a deep study of writings of the Gurus leave on the mind. A historian working working on this period should have the patience and insight of an archaelogist to enable him to unearth new material and manuscripts, and assess their correctness and importance. He should also have a good theological grounding and philosophical knowledge of the Scriptures, which alone can enable a writer to form the true image of the Guru's personality and character. Any historical fact that contradicts the image of the Gurus presented by their own writings has to be rejected. For example, the writings of Guru Gobind Singh do not conceal his outspoken contempt for idolatry and for worship of all types of gods and goddesses. So any historical record which spins a story stating that the Guru indulged in some sort of worship of gods and goddesses cannot be accepted as correct. Some historians chance to see a historical record, written by men who were condemned by contemporary writers of Sikh history, accept facts from these records uncritically, and jump to fantastic conclusions of their own. Conflicting Accounts ------------------------- Another difficulty in the study of the Guru Period is that no two copies of the same historical record completely agree. Thus, no record is free from serious errors introduced mostly by copyists, or by those who deliberately corrupted the historical records. Bhai Mani Singh accuses Meharban (Guru Arjan' nephew) and his followers of corrupting the oldest "Janamsakhis", and warns against accepting the historical facts of "Janamsakhi" written by him. Kavi Santokh Singh accuses the Handalias of further corrupting the "Janamsakhis", and warns us against stories and legends introduced by them. These organized campaigns to corrupt all the "Janamsakhis" and "Gurbilasis" have left no work that can completely be depended upon, and yet all these works have germs of truth and many historical facts which have left unchanged. A comperative study of all the documents brings us very near the truth. Study of Local History --------------------------- I have also found that the history of the Guru-period can be reconstructed by studying the events in places where they took place. Punjabi writers of the lives of the Guru did not have any correct idea of the geography of India. I have found more and realistic historical facts about the lives of the Gurus in the local history of other provinces. So whenever I come to know that there is some old historical recension of "Adi Guru Granth", or some historical record in some other province, I cannot rest till I have seen it. Sometimes after undertaking an expensive and arduous journey, I find nothing of much importance. At other times, sheer incidental inquiry leads to an important historical discovery. Discovery in a Bihar village ----------------------------------- Guided by such a craze, I went to a village in Bihar and discovered a strange document, hitherto unknown to historians, revealling very realistically the last great event of the life of Guru Gobind Singh leading to his ascension. Had I arrived one hour later than I did, the document might have been completely destroyed. Had I reached the place two days earlier, I might not have found it, as it was lying in the waste paper basket. The journey to this village, called Lachmipur, had to be undertaken on a bullock cart. The President of the Gurudwara was happy to find a Sikh from Punjab suddenly getting interested in his village. He asked the "granthi" to prepare some tea and "paranthas" for me, and as he showed me around, the happiest sight was the village children learning Punjabi and Sikh Scriptures, like "Panj Granthi", in the traditional manner. He then showed me some "Hukamnamas" written by the Jathedars of Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. The whole of Assam, Bihar and Bengal<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> was under the jurisdiction of Takhat Sri Patna Sahib and the Takhat maintained a private army upto the British period. Just as I was examining these Hukamnamas, in the open light of the courtyard, I saw a man sweeping away some torn pages of some old handwritten manuscript. Some of the pages were already being blown about the courtyard.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></B><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"> Valuable Manuscript Retrieved From Waste ---------------------------------------------- I went and picked up one lot of about three pages. The President apologetically said, "We are cleaning up and whitewashing the whole place to celebrate Guru Nanak's birthday." The size of these manuscript pages was about nine inches by six inches. I found them to be pages from the biography of Guru Angad, giving some old stories with a few facts. Then I found another lot of five pages of the same size fluttering about in the courtyard. These pages were from the life of Guru Amar Das and the first page gave what may be called the "Rehatnama" of Guru Amar Das's period. Then I saw another five or six pages of the "Panj Granthi" size (about six inch by four inch). I picked up one and read a vivid description of the Pathan who stabbed Guru Gobind Singh. I had never read anything like it before. It was a new record, but, whether I would be able to find other pages connecting the story was doubtful. I was overwhelmed and almost excited. I requested them to stop sweeping and pick up every page of these manuscripts. The President insisted that I should take teas first, but I told him that if I do not find the other pages of this historical event immediately, his men may sweep them away. Historic Document --------------------- I was able to get almost all the pages that were necessary for a complete version of the last days of Guru Gobind Singh. From these few pages it has not been possible to know the name of the author, or the name of the book. For that very reason I am giving the complete text, translation, historical notes, and comments and even the photostat copies of a few pages, so that these details may help us find the complete manuscript. This is the first historical manuscript relating to this great event, which is not only very realistic but helps in calculating the dates of all the happenings. A comparative study with other historical records is given in notes and comments: INVOCATION ------------ "nanak gobind ik kar dekho ham tija mazhab calayoge jat pat kachu rehan na deveh har Akal bulayoge. ik onkar satgur prasad, sakhi patsahi dasvin ji ko karam ka samat 1765 miti....Sri Vahguru" Know Nanak and Gobind to be one. We have founded the Third Faith. (In it) we have eliminated all differences of caste and creed. (My disciples) are taught to take refuge only in the One God. God is but One. He pervades all. By the Grace of the Guru (is He realized). Now I relate the story of Guru Gobind Singh's ascension. Guru Gobind Singh Camps At Nander ---------------------------------- "dakhan ko guru ji Bahadur Shah badshah ke sath[2] ae; dakhan ke bic ek gaon hai Nander; taha dera hoya; sahib ka hukam hoa, jo ihan Nander ka nao sat yug mai gobind nagri tha[3]; nander ke nechey nadi behti thi, ban ganga; hukam hoa jo iha nadi satyug mau...tha; ihan dudh ki nadi behti thi; hukam hua jo nau nath caurasi sidh is gobind nagri bic baste the; ihan....pher car sau; car kos dera age calya; tahan jae dera sri vah jio ne carn dhara." Guruji accompanied Emperor Bahadur Shah to Daccan. In Daccan there is a place called Nander. There the Guru camped. This place Nander was called the Guru Nagri in "satyuga". South of Nander flowed the river called Ban Ganga. Said the Guru: "On the banks of this river was the ashram of saints and sages...Here rivers of milk flowed. The Guru declared that eighty-four "sidhas"[4] and nine "nathas" resided here. Here there were gilded mansions and rich dwellings. The city was spread out over an area of four hundred "kos". From here the Guru went four miles ahead. Here the Lord pitched his tent. <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">Pathan Assassin's First Visit: September 18th, 1708 ----------------------------------------------------- "miti katik badi pancami; uhan ae divan khana bana; divan laga; akai sahib darsan denai lagai; ek din sara divan ek pathan baca aya; us ki umar bars pacis ki thi; us aei kai sahib ji ko salam kia; sahib ji un ko kaha jo agai ae baith; sahib ji kich pucha; un bhi kich bat kaha; koi saet baitha; jab uth cala sahib ji panc rupya nama baksha; tis roj to gaya" Fifth bright half of the "Kartik" month. There a huge congregation hall was built. The congregation met daily. The Divine Lord (Guru Gobind Singh) gave audience daily. Once when the congregation was meeting a Pathan[5] came to the Guru's presence openly. His age was about twenty-five years.[6] He came and bowed low to the Guru. Guruji asked him to come near and sit in the front.[7] The Master asked him something. He also spoke something in reply.[8] He sat for sometime and then stood up to depart. Guru Gobind Singh gave him five rupees[9] as charity. That day he went away.[10]<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"> Assassin's Second Visit on September 19th, 1708 ------------------------------------------------- "dusre din pher aya, pher sahib do rupya baksha, us roj bhi gaya." The next day[11] Pathan came again. The Master gave him two rupees[12] as charity. That day he also went away.[13] Assassin Stabs Guru Gobind Sing on September 20th, 1708 at 6:30 P.M. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "pahr tisre roz sare divan aya; sahib ji darsan dete the, sarbatr khalsa darsan karta hai; us pathan ko sahib ji bulaya najik carno pas baithaya; revdian ka prasad dilaya; una prasad le rakha; oh baitha raha badi der tak; jab sanjh honai lagi, sahib ji ke uthne ka bela hoya; ghadi ek din baki hai; tab un pathan bace ne uth ke salam kityan; dusre salam kar pher daud ke katari ka cot ghao kiya; tino ghao nikare bhae; tab sahib ji ek katari aisi mari jo us pathan bacai ki anti gir gai." On the third day[14] he came again in the open congregation. Guru Sahib was giving audience. The whole Khalsa sat in reverence, looking at his gracious Presence. Guru Sahib called the Pathan near him and asked him to sit nearby. Guruji ordered that "prasad"[15] (sacramental food) should be offered to him. He accepted the prasad. He continued to sit till late in the evening, when the sun was about to set. It was now time for Guruji to rise up and end the audience. It was one "ghadi" (about an hour and half) before the end of the day. The Pathan youth got up and bowed low in reverence before the Guru. When he bowed for the second time, he rushed towards the Guru and stabbed him with a poniard.[16] All the three thrusts[17] of the dagger failed (to kill the Guru). Then Guru Sahib struck him with his dagger and the intestines of the Pathan youth youth fell out.[18] Then a Sikh of the Guru killed him on the spot. Bahadur Shah Sends His Physicians and Surgeons ----------------------------------------------- "sahib ji hukam kia jo badshai hakim bulao; eh khabar badshah ne sunah; badshah kehlae bheja ji sahib hukam kijai jo us pathan bace ki biradri mai sat sai pathan ji; hukam hovai ta sabh kai hath katiyai; tau lau, badshai hakim bhi aya; du pehar rat ko pati bandha." Guru Gobind Singh immediately ordered that the Emperor's physicians and surgeons[19] should be sent for. On hearing the news the Emperor was grieved and sent words to Guru Sahib, he would cut the hands of all the Pathans[20] associated with the assassin youth (on investigation was found to be seven hundred). Then the physicians and surgeons of the Emperor also came. The wounds were stiched and bandaged when about two "paihars" (three hours) of the night had passed.[21] Guru Gobind Singh Announces the Divine will for His Ascension on the morning of October 7th, 1708 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- "ghao canga hone laga huya; sahib ap sri vahguru ji daya dhari kai darsan denai lagai; soleh roz tak divan laga raha. darsan dete rahe. satarven din hukam kiya jo panc sau rupai ka gurpurab karo; sau rupai ka lakadian lai chalo...hukam so khalsa lai aya; tan khalse ardas kiti, je patsah hukam sat jo hukam: ta hukam hoa, hukam evai tha honi; honi evai thi, honi evai hukam sat hai; tad guruji hukam kia jo gurpurab karo; khalse gurpurab kia." The wound began to heal. The Lord out of infinite mercy began to attend the congregation daily so that the devotees could have a glimpse of the divine person.[22] For sixteen days Guruji came to bless the congregation and gave audience.[23] The devotees daily enjoyed his darsan (Presence). On the seventeenth day[24] Guruji ordered that preparations should be made for celebrating "gurpurab" (the happiest occassion connected with the Guru).[25] And about five hundred gold coins should be spent on it. He also ordered firewood worth hundred rupees to be brought (for the funeral pyre). Obeying the command of Guruji, the Khalsa brought all these things. Guru Gobind Singh Makes Final Preparations for His Ascension during daytime on Thursday October 7th, 1708. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "hukam kiya jo sarbatr khalsa ko prasad bartae deo; hukam sion khalse prasad bartae dia; hukam hoa jo cikha lakdion ka banao; kanaten caro tarph ghero; hukam hoa jo asin asvari karen ge; hukam sat hai; hukam sio khalse cikha banaya; kanaten tana; samat miti katik ki pancmai; din vir // svara hoa." Guru Gobind Singh then ordered the Khalsa to distribute the whole of sacramental food.[26] According to Guruji's wishes the Khalsa distributed the whole of the sacramental food. Guruji then commanded: 'Prepare the funeral pyre with the wood (bought for this purpose) and screen it by fixing a tent-wall[27] around it. I will now leave my body. Such is the Divine Will of God: the Truth.' In obedience to this command the Khalsa prepared the funeral pyre. A tent-wall was fixed all around it. In teh Sambat 1765, the month of Katik, the 5th dark half of the month (when it was Thursday October 7th, 1708). Guru Gobind Singh made preparation for ascension.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">Last Sermon and Ascension on the Night of October 7th, 1708<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "rat gujri, jab svara ka rup nadri aya, tab khalse ardas kia, "ji sace patsah paki nai pak! hukam hoe jo khalsa matha kahan teke?" tab hukam hoa "jo khalse no akal purakh ko saunpa hoi; asan agai gandh pae rakhya hai; khalse ke guru sahai; hukam hoa jo dason patsaon ke sabad bani padna; kadah gurpurab karte rehna; guru sahai hai; jo koi khalse ki rehat bicare ga tis ka beli han; eha hukam hoa; khalse ke bab; din vir // svari hoi." It was nightfall[28] when Guru Gobind Singh was seen in a state of leaving the body, then the Khalsa made a prayerful supplication: "Most revered King of kings! Pure and Gracious Lord, command us to whom should the Khalsa bow in future in reverence as Guru." Guru Gobind Singh commanded in reply: "I have dedicated the Khalsa to the Almighty God and placed him at His feet. We (ten Gurus) have established deep spiritual ties of the Khalsa with the Absolute being ("Akal Purakh"). The Guru (in his Eternal Spiritual Form) will always come to the aid of the Khalsa.[29] Guru (Gobind Singh) then commanded: "The Sikhs should read the Scriptures of the ten Gurus.[30] All occassions should be celebrated in the name of the Guru, with prayers and sacramental feast. The Guru will always come to their aid. he who lives according to the code of conduct of the Khalsa[31], I shall always be his Protector and Saviour." This was the Divine Command, the last sermon to the Khalsa. On Thursday Guruji's ascension took place. Cremation of the Body and Last Ceremony ----------------------------------------- "khalse isnan karayia; va joda posak sire pao pehnaya; hathyar sabh bandhaya; ar jadao pehnaya; sir par kalgi rakh tyar kiya; laijae ke cikha par rakha; cikha nu jalaya, hathiar, poshak, jadao, samet; sahib karam kara, dachan des nander madeh, das din again karan kia." The Khalsa bathed the body of the Guru. Then he was dressed in royal robes, turban and other clothes. He was then attired in all the weapons he usually wore. Royal signet, pearl neclaces were put on. On his turban was fixed the jewelled Crest ("Kalgi"). Thus preparations were made for his cremation. Then his body was carried and placed on the funeral pyre. Fire was set to the pyre and in it all the clothes, weapons and royal ornaments were allowed to be burnt. Thus the Lord caused his ascension. Ten days[32] after the cremation, (Saturday October 17th) the last rites ("bhog" ceremony) was performed. <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></B><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Babbar Ji: I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following: "Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin" "ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai" He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus. A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement. He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today. As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill. These people remain behind the scenes and make low castes fight for them instead. Same people send their children to Canada, USA, UK and get children of other poor sikhs killed in the name of khalistan or punjabi sooba etc. Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families. did you listen to the complete speech or your friend took out the one liner from the speech to make you hate Sant ji...First listen the entire context and then comment...! regarding hostages inside Golden temple...this is what Indian govt. controlled media fed to the masses in India and my illetrate contrymen followed it like something divine...! anyways if hostages would have been inside the temple...do you seriously think all of them died in crossfire...how come even today there are no such people who say that they were held hostage inside Golden temple...where are those people now...not even single such statement recorded till date...holding somebody as a hostage is a big news...why it was not there in the news...? Regarding kharkoos...after 9/11 in America sikhs were also at receiving end due to beard and turban...so you see it is damn easy to disguise as a sikh...just beard and turban yo0u need...thats what many kharkoos used to have...they were under central govt's controlled subordinates...there aim was to destroy the rising image of sant ji...hwoever may be 1 or 2 percent of actual sikhs were also involved who killed only those people against whom they had grudge like barbaraic police officers, leaders puking against sikhism and the Guru sahibs etc etc...that was what "kharkoo theory" was all about...! you said beant singh who go ahead and kill for self benefits...now tell me what did bhindranwale achieved in living the life the way he did...what did beant singh (indira destroyer) got...death...which they knew was on the cards if they pursue their mission...beant singh didnt run after shooting her...he stayed their and achieved martrydom...it was obvious that his contrymen would give his family highest degree of neglection...yet he never changed his mind...do you think all those shaheeds did this karm just to see their kids get the Visa of UK, Canada or USA or the kids getting free education and other such benefits...what "low caste" issue did they involve...how many so called low caste people died with bhindranwale...how many so called chooray/chamar stood beside him when he was being brutally attacked...only few Rehetwaan Singhs were there...in the end what did they get...bad words from ill informed people like you for all the struugle they went through...! Punjabi Sooba...Kindly address it "Sikh struggle for Punjabi Sooba"...as no other community was involved in that...this movement restored Punjabi language else it would have been finished by now...it would have been just like physical education or sanskrit in schools...an optional subject...and the way sanskrit is almost dead today...same thing would have happened to punjabi had there been no punjabi sooba movement...I request you to kindly do some research about it...it wasnt for personal benefit...it was for the benefit of Punjabi boli else it would been dead by now...! Indian army and congress white paper said thousands of things about Sant ji...they had huge lists of allegations and crimes against him...but hardly any proof...where are the proofs...even till date there is not even single proof against Sant ji for all those allegations...like killing hindu families, extortions, hit lists etc etc...Can you put some light on it...?

Babbar Ji: I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following: "Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin" "ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai" He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus. A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement. He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today. As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill. These people remain behind the scenes and make low castes fight for them instead. Same people send their children to Canada, USA, UK and get children of other poor sikhs killed in the name of khalistan or punjabi sooba etc. Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families. Did you try to listen the entire speech of Sant ji

so you want to emphasise that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj gave Guruship to SGGS for a short period of time untill the emergence of Naamdharis or nirankaris or whatver...? and after that GuruGaddi got shifted to Dehdhari Guru again...Wow...so My dear friend can you please let us know how would SGGS grant Guruship to anybody in future and if already done as per you thinking...how was it done...? My dear friend, there could be enumerable parcharaks, preachers...but the Guru is only one...none in todays world could be regarded as Satguru in human form...only SGGS is the Guru and whosoever read the Baani from it, even live according to the Baani and teaches to do the same to others, do not become Guru himself...!!! I hope you get my point...

First of all you had quoted a wrong verse...the verse was "inhi ki kirpa ke saje hum hain, nahin moh se gareeb kror pare"...here guruji is expressing the "mahima" of sangat as a whole not the dalits...he said that he is decorated because of the sangat...never in his compilation he used the word dalit...! not only jatts, but muslim pathans, khatris and others also deserted guruji on many occassions...but that doesnt mean all those communities as a whole is wrong...or is it...? now tell what kind off confirmation u need...you dont evenb know the correct quote which you are using for "dalit mahima"...!

Bhagats Bani was not added out of respect as you seem to think so. This shows your level of understanding of Sikh religion and it's doctrines. How Bhagat Bani got in SGGS is not exactly known, Guru Nanak having collected it just an assumption drawn from his wide travels. How the Bani of Bhagats is in Gurmukhi in sggs when most of them had nothing to do with Punjabi is also mystery for which every historian has his own theory. The exact life details of Bhagats esp. Ravidas and Kabir are really not known and depend upon traditional stories. One such story is how the souls of Bhagats came and requested Guru Arjan to include their work in SGGS when he started compiling SGGS, and the party was lead by Kabir not Ravidas. As for Kabir panthis, their granth is very different from SGGS. There is a wide range of differences between Bijak's content and those of SGGS in vocabulary, spellings, language, overall message etc. Similar and exact are two different things. SGGS is not a cut and paste job as you think so. That is why cuting and pasting of Bhagat Bani cannot be allowed from SGGS. Can i ask you a question You quote Kabirpanthis. They have their own Granth which is not similar to SGGS in any way. Why don't you follow them a produce a granth of Bhagat Ravidas and then compare with SGGS? Why the cut and paste job? Didn't Bhagat ravidas leave any Granth behind? Why don't you provide the origins of the manuscripts you are talking about and present their contents here. apnepart2, to answer your question, even though bijak is not similar as GGS, lot of bani from bijak has been added to GGS. As for providing you the manuscripts for Guru ravidass Ji's bani, I have all the documented information from it but based on your highly uneducated response regarding reasons and mode of inclusion of bhagats bani, I doubt your have the intelligence to appreciate what I would show you. In other words, fools should not be explained and wise need not be explained. I have put you in first category. Now your mode of inclusion of bhagats bani. Are you telling me that Guru Nanak used to carry bhagat's bani around for no reason and just collected it during travels. This is stupid. Now let me enlighten you a little bit. Guru Nanak requested bani from bhagats and he used to sing it with bala and mardana and janam sakhis of guru nanak state that (which are even older than GGS). Secondly Guru Arjun Dev Ji didn't get any dreams or anything. He got it compiled and some of the compilers were reluctant to add bahagats bani because of low caste. Guru Arjun dev made it clear that, GGS will not finish without this bani because it was dhur ki bani that Guru Nanak had collected from bhagats. In fact, Guru Nanak said in his teachings "Bhagtan ki bani sachhi bani" i.e bani of bhagats is the true bani. Guru Nanak repeatedly mentioned that he has learnt at the feet of bhagats. Now as far as gurmukhi is concerned, it was not invented by Bhai Gurdas. It existed before. Guru Ravidass says in his bani a couplet "bed bidh chontis akhar mahain" i.e name of god can't be explained in 34 letters of the language. There was also a litigation in Lahore before independence which proved that gurmukhi as it is called today was started by Guru Ravidass and not Bhai Gurdas. Bhai Gurdas learned it. He was not an inventor of any language. He was user. It doesn't reduce the contribution of Bhai Gurdas though. Bhagat Ravidas jee was a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev jee. We know this as Mira Bai who lived during the reign of Mughal Emperor Akbar was a disciple of Bhagat Ravidaas jee. Janamsaakhis and 'Tvareek Guru Khalsa' (p. 80) mention that the Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Jee. According to the Meharvaan Janamsaakhi, the Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev jee at Ayodhya. From reading Gurbani, the Bhagats clearly state that they found the True Guru and that received Amrit & Naam from the Satguru, who can only be Satguru Nanak. Therefore, Bhagat Ravidaas jee became a disciple of Guru Nanak Dev jee. A Gurdwara Sahib is constructed in Ayodha in memory of the historic meeting between Guru jee and the Bhagats. Quote ਪਰਮ ਪਰਸ ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੀਐ ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਲਾਟ ॥ ਉਨਮਨ ਮਨ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਛੁਟਕਤ ਬਜਰ ਕਪਾਟ ॥੬॥ "When one's pre-ordained destiny awakens and one meets the True Guru, who is the Supreme Philosopher's Stone, then the inner-soul meets with the Supreme Soul, and the stubborn doors of the mind are opened wide. ||6||" (Bhagat Ravidaas jee, Ang 346) Though I copy and pasted the above words from a website but seems pretty much correct...once Bhagat Ravidass realised God, the God chose him to spread holy baani to the world from his mouth...this baani was included in Adi Granth by Guru Arjan Dev ji and it cannot be removed from it... Guru Har rai ji even disowned his son for changing one word of baani to please emperor aurangzeb...so how can this be tolerated when baani of Guru Granth sahib is used to make separate Granth...? Gurmukhi was not there during the time of Bhagat Ravidass ji...it was scripted by Guru Angad dev ji...second Guru of sikhs...however he did not make an entirely new script rather modified Landa script used here in Punjab only not there where bhagat ji used to live...Landa script and sharda script were transformed to gurmukhi by Guru sahib by removing various shortcomings from it...!

BigChann, Jai Gurudev ! if you think I am stirring up conflict than it is not true. What conflict I could stir up...? It's only bloody computer. By the way based on you notions of disrespect etc..let me ask couple questions and everybody may respond in their own way.. Q. 1. a. Do you follow bani in SGGS as living guru (bani guru guru hai bani) ? b. Or do you follow 1430 pages of the GGS as living guru (not what is written on it)? Q.2 a. Do you follow what is written in GGS in 1604 as a guidance for Sikhs ? b. or do you follow Sikh Mariada written in 1920s...? Regards, Harjit Singh Q. 1. Each letter of Gurbani is our Guru. Where Bani Is contained it is the Body of Our Guru So Both. Q.2. With regards to marayada for Guru Granth Sahib it is the more or so the maryada followed since 1604 (Today satkaar for bani has decreased marayada then was more stictly followed). Guru Arjan Devji gave up his bed for The bani and used to sleep on the floor. Guru is for the world. But if satkaar is not present it is the duty of the Sikhs of the Guru to stop beadbi . So salute to the singhs in Vienna. Thanks Gurdaspuria Ji: Q1. Then how do you view the sanskar of body of guru when GGS has grown old (the paper it is written on has deteriorated in condition)...? Does ever a feeling come to you that when several bodies of gurus are burnt together that guru's body is basically no more...? How do you view the bani which is written in newspapers and those newspapers are strewn around people's feet ? Or does a bani only become guru when it is included as a whole in GGS...? In other words, is it acceptable for people to have partial word of guru on any medium? Do you think that when Guru Gobind Singh said "Consider Bani as Guru", he essentially menat that whatever Bani says is the word of Guru? Did he say that Granth is also guru's body..? Btw, I may add that "Guru Granth ji manyo, Pargat guran ki de...." is not in the GGS and is not attributed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Q2. Since you mentioned satkar was more strict at the time for gurus or mariada was more strict, is there any documentation available from that mariada or any traditions/rituals etc.? Is the concept of beadbi (what is beadbi and what is not?) stemming up from Rehit Mariada of 1920s or from the gurbani...? Your salute to sings is your view but they are now rotting in austrian jail and they have also written a letter of apology to dera saint and asked for forgiveness. I am not 100% sure whether it is true but have heard that it is letter full of shame and seems to be genuine. Ans 1 The sanskar of damaged swaroop of Guru Granth sahib is done in same way as we do for human beings. The Guru's body that is paper and cardboard may be cremated but the word is not cremated as word is a jot which never dies and wil stay forever. Normally baani should not be printed on newspaper and magazines...but if some people do...they should ensure that the paper should not be thrown like common paper...as a sikh if one comes across such thing pick that paper and destroy it properly...which sikhs normaly do if they come across such situations...! it is acceptable to keep partial word of the guru like in japji sahib Gutka and other baanis..you can take baani out of SGGS in the form of Gutka sahib...but if you make separate Granth of that baani, say "ABC" granth than it is not acceptable... Let Guru Granth sahib be the medium of all the baanis. you dont wanna believe in "Guru Granth ji maneyo, pargat Guran ki deh", then I would like to tell you that Guru Arjan dev ji Maharaj did the Parkash of Adi Granth sahib in the same way as it is done today...moreover there are so many other baanis like benti chopai, jaap sahib etc., which are not there in SGGS, but these baanis are an integral part of sikh nitnem...further read bhatt vahi where Guru Gobind Singh himself stated that Guru Granth sahib be the next Guru and bowed his head infront of it the way sikhs do today...Now can you and you dera defy Guru Gobind Singh ji..!

Your criticizing Rahit in order to justify the existence of Ravidassia faith? The oldest Rahits date back to the time of the Gurus and they are fairly similar. The 1920's Rahit which you talked awayed stripped away the casteism that you are opposed to. One of the oldest Rahits is Gyan Ratnvali by Bhai Mani Singh. Also, Have you heard of Gyani Ditt Singh? He was one of the most active members of the Singh Sabha movement, and one its most important leaders. Here is a bio http://www.sikh-hist.../dittsingh.html Thanks Kuthaman Ji: I didn't criticize Rahit anywhere. It is fine for sikhs and I have no reason to criticize it as it is for a sikhs. I just pointed out the timeframe of 1920s. Now you ave an interesting comment that Rahints existed at the time of Guruji also and 1920 Rahit did away with casteism. So it is true that Rahits before at the time of Gurus had casteim in it. So if rahints had casteim, than it is not surprising that some foreign scholars have pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh was an exemplary opportunist who, when he couldn't get support from other communities i.e Brahmins, khatri rajas etc, enlisted lower castes to fight for him. So it was not a love for equality but for a need of the hour that lower castes fell for khalsa concept. It is also not surprising that merely removing casteism from Rahits hasn't affected casteism in sikhism as it happened recently in 1920s. Many a times, even Indian scholars are flabbergasted as to why casteism is still rampant in sikhism despite the teachings. Now you know that it was very well entrenched in papers even during gurus times. No wonder why some comment that all gurus were Kshatrias and none of them married out of castes and after initial some gurus, gurudom was essentially kept in the family. So if gurus couldn't/wouldn't erase castesim why would its subjects. This is a general feeling amongst dalits that castesim was truly hated only during the time of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Guru Arjun Dev ji. afterwards, it was merely considered to be phenomenon to be swept under carpet. Well, we do learn something in forums. Rahits without casteism existed during the time of Gurus as well...your comments simply suggest that you are not only spiritually blind but uneducated as well...if casteism would have been there during the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji...then how come first set of Panj piyaras belonging to different castes which included the so called low castes...were baptised by Guru Sahib to become khalsa...SGGS ji includes baani of Ravidass ji, kabir dass ji, bhagat Dhanna ji...they were all considered low castes...the bir of SGGS ji to whom GUru Gobind Singh ji conferred Guruship was actually narratted by Guru sahib himself. He would have very easily removed the bani of all these bhagats being a low caste...but he didnt...! Guru Sahib got support from many so called high caste people and rajas, raja of assam, nahan were his devotees, many muslim priests like pir bhikhan shah were his mureed, Baba Banda singh bahadur the khatri by birth was in his army, pandit kirpa Ram who went to Guru Tegh Bahdur ji for help againt aurangzeb and who later became kirpa singh was his devotee...rai roop chand who gave shelter to Guru sahib in kachchi garhi. Raja Todar mal who cremated younger sons of Guru Sahib...so there were many so called high caste people who were with Guru Sahib...so go to library explore some history rather than exploring some stupid dera...! IN 1920's it was merely reinstated that casteism is by no means part of sikhism and it should be totally removed...as people were following it in one way or another during those days...it is a separate thing that today also many people follow it...but that is there fault not the sikhism or the Gurus.! Further, this is a stupid observation on your part that Gurus married in kshatriya family so they are caste oriented, whenever an alliance came they got married...Guru Hargobind Sahib hd marriage proposal from Chandu shah...but they refused as Chandu had ill intentions...it is all "sanjog"...hukum as ordained by God...nothing against so called lower caste people during those days...Gurus had big tasks to do than to look for whom to marry, which "caste" to marry in...these stupid things may again be taught by some dera, could not be considered divine...! Now who would be the Guru and who would not be the Guru is again will of the God. You say Guruship was kept in the family...all right after Guru Ramdass Guru Arjan became Guru...Can you object his contributions when he sacrificed his life for freedom of practicing one's faith...after him Guru Hrgobind Sahib became Guru who was the fist Guru to infuse millitary tradition in sikhsim, who fought battles to ensure justice...canyou object his contributions...later came Guru Tegh Bhadur ji...how can you object his contribution...then Guru Gobind Singh ji...Find one objectionable point in Guru Sahib's life...neither you nor your dera...So what's the point in crying that Guruship was kept in the same family...? well as far as dalit's feeling is concerned regarding casteism, its not dalit feeling, its the brainwash induced by deras in India...and to some extent, few of the so called high caste people's rude behaviour against the dalits...but that doesnt mean the so called "dalits" have got right to speak against the Gurus or the sikhism..!

All Bani of SGGS is not found elsewhere. Everything originates from SGGS. All writings outside SGGS are regarded by Sikhs as 'kachi bani' and Sikhs dont care what is done with it. You are on Sikh forum and are talking about our living father. So behave yourself. apnepart2, Come on, I not calling Guru Nanak a mischief. He added Guru Ravidass's bani as a mark of utmost respect for Guru Ravidass Ji. I was only responding to analogy drawn ealier of taking out bani equivalent to cutting limbs. That is the only reason, I commented, if you consider it equivalent to cutting limbs than how many limbs Guru nanak cut ? Also Guru Ravidass Bani, which is in GGS is also existing in various manuscripts which predate GGS and that's where the bani in the new granth has been added from. So this claim that bani is being taken out is not valid. There is no legal implication anyway, even if it is taken out. Also Satguru Kabir's whole of bani in GGS exists in Kabirpanthi granth Kabir Bijak, which predates GGS. So, not mine but from your analogy, Guru Nanak committed a blasphemy. Now you and I know it is not true but when rationale presented by you is such than why counter is also true? Brother, the oldest record of Bhagat Ravidass ji's Bani is Adi Granth or Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Had it not been Guru Granth Sahib ji. Bhagat ji's baani would have either lost with the passage of time or manipulated. The bani remained unaffected till date only because it got the stamp of Guru Sahibans and embodiment of Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is because Guru Granth Sahib was compiled during the life time of Guru sahibs and not after they left the body. Furher, Ravidass ji never called himself Guru. There's a lot of difference between Guru and Bhagat. A Guru is the one who is chosen by God himself to spread His message. A bhagat is the one who tries to realise God by pure Bhakti and meditation and ultimately succeds in finding him. The sikh Panth was started by Guru Nanak Dev ji and he is considered first sikh Guru. while Bhagat Ravi Dass ji never started any panth. Years and years after Bhagat ji left his body, people named a Panth after his name. How come Bhagat ji becane founder of Ravidassis Panth. Dera Ballan has made it into separate Panth Not Bhagat Ravidass ji. now since SGGS ji revered as living Guru according to the Hukum of Guru Gobind Singh ji...it is embodiment of Guru ji himself. now I must say here even we sikhs take bani out of SGGS in the form of Gutka Sahib of Japji Sahib, SUkhmani sahib and other baanis. But we do not make separate Granth of it. Thats what pinching Sikh Panth when a dera first declares a new panth with borrowed ideology and a new granth which is made by taking Baani out of SGGS. Had Bhagat Ravidass himself declared such faith, it would have been correct to call ravidasia as separate faith but who is this dera ballan to declare a separate faith? dont mind me saying faiths are only those which are started by the founders of it...not those which are started centuries after the founders have left the body and that too by somebody at random...!

That Just reminded me of another topic me nd my jiju were talkin abt! Is it true that we had weapons under the golden temple complex...that Indira Gandhi wanted to check it..and we refused and then she attacked us? WJKK WJKF Now thats a serious topic...well Sant ji and other men did possess some weapons which they used to resist the attack of Indian army...Sant ji and sikhs with him wanted the govt of india to approove Anandpur Sahib resolution which Indian Govt. didnt want and also akalis were ready to edit Anandpur sahib resolution and adopt it...ofcourse which they could not force the central govt. to do even till date...they were and are at fault...! Sant ji as akalis and central govt used to consider him as biggest obstacle...so plans were made to eliminate him...that's why Harmandar Sahib was attacked...Before attacking no central govt. official came to Sant ji for peacefull talks and only army came to attack him...and akalis did nothing to stop it as they were themselves part of it...! thats the reason buddy...and probably you will find thousands of fake reasons which would try to malign the image of Sant ji...even more in congress Govt. white paper issued at that time...do not believe all that stuff...ask the victims of operation bluestar who were able to escape death at that time...!

Sat Sri Akal Veerji... well there has been enough discussion on this topic and that too in detail many times on this very website...however it is not easy to retrieve all those links now...so I will take this oppurtunity to answer your qyeries...! Let me start by making it clear that I have nothing against hinduism...but sikhism is by no means hinduism or sect of hinduism...Guru Nanak was born in Hindu family...but my dear friend one's faith is decided by what pactices he/she follow...pardon me asking didnt Guru Nanak denounced the use of janeou, is there any instance when He worshipped idols or Hindu demi Gods...it never happened. His worship was aimed at one true Lord...further how many sikh Gurus propogated the core message of hinduism that is believe in tri shakti of Brahma Vishnu and Mahesh...no one...! so sikhism and hinduism are two separate faiths...there is one more reason which people give to state sikhism as sects of hinduism...they say in Guru Granth Sahib there are names of hindu demigods repeated inside Guru Maharaaj...but they never realise that all these are names of GOD since ages...RAM naam was there even before Lord Rama too birth...in the same way other names are there...!