Cisco_Singh

Japanese oak is popular for sticks and staffs. Might be too heavy for spears though especially the throwing type

Im not familiar with patiala shai styles or terms likem double pooni etc.. Basically the typical UK modified design based on Kenyan/East African dastaar involves strecthing out the material length ways, 1 person each side..keep the material stretched, fold in half length ways, fold in half again, then fold 1/3 from one side and the 2/3 on top. This can be amended depending on how wide you want your larrs. You'll end up with 5/6 metre lenggh of flat folded material about 5 inches wide then you can start tying starting from left side of your head first lar goes over the top of your head,and you work your way down. Difficult to describe someone needs to make a youtube video

the whole art form is deeply linked into mythical. cultural and historical contexts, and should not be changed to suit the belief sets of others . people need to get a grip on reality, and understand Sikhs did not invent this at form. They are simply the last custodians of it.

sas do a great job, it would be good if they could get this sort of talk into sixth forms, colleges and universities. The youth that these issues affect probably don't attend Gurdwaras. nevertheless, it's a good platform for educating the general sangat who for too long have buried their heads in the sand and don't seem to want to openly discuss real world issues.

Fact is most of these people making noise don't actually have any martial arts knowledge, they're primary issue is with The teacher and his views. If for example Niddar Singh, conformed to their own view of Sikhi and the pentras etc in the shastar vidiya system had neutral names instead of names based around avtars from Hinduism.. these same people would be raving about Niddar Singh and singing his praises...

there's no concept of length as such, buy a standard 5 metre and if necessary cut off any excess, for the Kenyan style dastaar if you also want it to be compact keep a maximum of 5 lar.

If this venue really is now called "Apna Venue", and is not run, managed or owned by the Gurdwara and is run by council funding. Then whats the problem ?? From what I read here it appears: - Hall was originall called Sikh Leisure Centre, affiliated to the Gurdwara, and with some councl funding. - Due to mismanagement of funds, council stopped funding it. - Management commitee changed to disassociate from Gurdwara, venue renamed. - Now called Apna Venue.. Of course if the venue is still funded by sangat money and the Gurdwara still own it , then there is an issue..otherwise I dont see the problem

The only time I have ever heard Sonchi mentioned, is in the Shastar Vidiya system as taught by Niddar Singh... heres a quote from a student I found by Googling Sonchi.. " Sparing is termed Sonchi, and a format is used to pressure test the student to see how much the principles have been instilled into them. The difference is that no arm guards or helmets are used, so that emphasis is upon evasion of limbs and body. No strike is taught to be resisted, instead the energy of the opponent is to be controlled, reading his movements in order to break structure and achieve a better tactical position. The aim through training is to achieve the higher skills without damaging your own body. My sparing partner should be able to skillfully deliver a killing blow which cannot be denied, and at the same time not hurt me. Through this method the student can learn, and maintain a healthy body. Too many hits to bones, limbs and joints will not serve you well in later life, so through a controlled training environment and a martial yoga system, the body is kept healthy and in good condition. I dont need to be hit in the throat to know its in, by placing it there and catching me off guard will allow me to respect the skill much more. On the same token, this art is not to be used for mindless violence, so this control is always drilled into the student. " I have not yet of any Gatka Ustaad mentioning Sonchi...unless they have adopted the term since Niddar Singh popularised it...as with many terms Gatka ustaads suddenly "borrowed" from his website...

do you want to elaborate and explain which Gatka ustaad that you know the in the UK that have knowledge of purataan unarmed combat systems,, which incorporate striking, grappling, wrestling, fighting multiples, formation fighting, weapon disarming, joint locks and manipulation etc etc. watch as many Gatka videos on YouTube, Sikh channel, sangat etc.. I still to this day have never seen a Gatka ustaad with any knowledge of traditional unarmed combat. I have seen plenty of Gatka ustaad incorporate karate, tae kwon do and more recently mma into their classes. You guys seriously need to open your eyes and get some education stop spreading and believing crap like Gatka being an actual combat art..It's clearly not...at best it's a very basic introduction to footwork for young children. most Gatka these days should be renamed synchronized bhangra or giddah..It's become a joke

There was someone teaching at Ramgarhia Community Centre Coventry recently, before the commitee banned the classes..apparently they ddnt want people getting injured with shastar. The teacher was apparantly called Harcharan or Harjinder SinghI cant remember exactly. I dont know what he was teaching exactly it was labelled as shastar vidiya and street defence. But as fas ar your open hands gatka goes, I have never seen any Gatka ustaad in the UK who teaches authentic puratan open hand combat methods. They normally just incorporate tae kwon do or other arts because the Gatka system as im sure you already know is more about exhibitionism than actual combat.

Inttresting articale..but still not very conclusive to educated or intelligent readers. Firstly it's Khalsa rehit to train in the arts of war.."Sant-Sipahi" concept goes hand in hand...one without the other is not a complete Sikh way of life you cannot uphold Dharam without the "sipahi" concept. A prime example of loss of martial culture is the delhi 1984 riots... hw many Singhs were caught off gaurs without weapons, and knowledge of their use ? You do realise some of the people you mention are Nihangs who were trained in Shastar Vidiya anyway ?? " With such a ped­i­gree and his­tory of sac­ri­fice from our ancest­ors. with such examples of bravery as Baba Deep singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji , Sukha Singh Mehtab Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Bhai Fauja Singh Ji and count­less oth­ers, our roots give us strength, our Guru Gives us pur­pose and we must always be ready to fight for hon­our and justice. This Sikh Spirit is what made the Sikhs into great war­ri­ors not some hocus pocus pen­tras and hand movements. " Sukha Singh is listed as one of the previous Gurdevs of the Akali Baba Darbara Singh Akhara ... Mehtab Singh was also a Nihang as was Baba Deep Singh ... Spirit and Spirtuality alone is not enough you cannot neglect the way of the warrior. So every Sikh should make it their duty to be train in combat arts along with their spirituality...do both but dont neglect either.

Better to have quality rather than quantity...you cant dilute or adapt Sikhi to suit those who cant be bothered to follow it properly.

That doesnt look like a very balanced view being presented to me, thats clearly a one sided website. While I dont have any issue with that, your going about your argument the wrong way, You need to address the Shastar Vidiya System itself and disprove it if you have any chance of convincing people. Now this is the difficult part...the Filipino Martial Arts world are giving more and more credibility to the art form, i've said before accomplished martial artists such as Pat O Malley, Maul Mornie, Krishna Godhaswamia (Martial Arts Illustrated) are endorsing the art form. Now you must be some sort of genious if your going to "invent" a complete art form...which specifically specializes in indo-persian weaponry..which if you knew anything about weaponry would realise is vastly different to western weaponry... Where did he manage to learn about the usage of this vast aray of weapons and the techniques used to weild them ?? The fact is he is obtained substantial skill and knowledge , where did this come from ? Who taught him ??

How many nihangs regardless of budha dal or tarna dal membership have knowledge of traditional shastar vidiya ? you can ask them but I doubt you will get proper answera. same concept if you ask a kirtani if they have knowledge of proper traditional raag vidiya and tradinational authentic kirtan instruments used in gurmat sangeet such as sarangi and rabab..why do they rely on ferenghi instryments like the vajah/european harmonium which was never a traditional krtan istrument..it was introduced during the british era...apparentky to make kirtan sound more like choir music...y

In Jang one must be prepared for all eventualities,in jang it is common that you can be disarmed or your wepaons break sword blades for example. Hence there is no complete art of warfare that does not include hands to hand combat, ground work, grappling, joint manipulation, wrestling etc. Brazillian Ju Jitsu evolved from the tradtional battlefield art of the Samurai so you can see that even though samurai were traditionally fames for their swordsmanship and weaponry skills they also had a solid hand to hand, grappling and wrestling based element to their art. In the Filipino arts along with the weapons based arts of Kali, Eskrima etc..they also have hand to hand combat Panantukan . For further evidence you can look at modern day evoloutions of martial arts used by current day special forces,...Krav Maga for the israelis, Systema, Silat etc... these systems all have hand to hand combat. What do you think old school warriors did in warfare if they were disarmed, their weapons broke or were lost ?? Do you think they ran away ? The answer is..that any complete Vidiya or battlefield art form must have a hand to hand combat component that incorporates disarming armed opponents, includes grappling/groundwork wrestling etc..

Basically you have hit the nail on the head...most of the detractors on this site...infact almost all..have no background or knowledge of martial arts...hence they are not able to comprehend or constructively debate and differentiate between authentic combat art forms and exhibitionist arts. Secondly the main issue the majority have is not with the art form itself it is with the teacher and his particular belief set.

If Gatka is the traditional Khalsa martial art...why does it have no concept of unarmed combat ? What do you do if you havent got any weapons ? Why does Gatka have no concept of formation fighting, battle formations,etc? Why are all the weapons used in Gatka the wrong weight, length etc..Puratan shaters have specific weights, lengths etc.,.. Why does Gaka have no conept of how different weapons are used in different ways..not just swung around for no reason. Why does Gakta always have choerographed wepon on shield strikes...proper swordsmen...would NEVER seek to strike their wepons on shields puroposely... Gatka is a very very basic art at best..maybe good for introducing very yound children to basic footwork and sticks, it's definitely cannot be considered a complete martial art, yet alone a battlefield art. Which high level martial artists have praised Gatka as a high loevel martial art ?? At least Shastar Vidiya s gaining recongnition amingst high profile martial artists..Pat O Malley, Mauil Mornie to name a couple...

Agree with above posters Gurdwaras need security, we cannot rely on the police or others external sources. There is a reason Sri Guru Hargobind maharaj created the miri piri concept, reinforced by the tenth master Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, self defence, weapons training, physical fitness is not optional it is a mandatory requirement for the Khalsa.

This has been discussed too many times, there are no other known teachers publically teachibng the Shastar Vidiya system... If you want to learn a martial art dont bother with Gatka...why do you think Gatka is commonly classified as a "khel" or game ? People refer to "playing Gatka" ..it;s not an effectiver combat system. You'd be much better served with Silat, Panantukan, Eskrima etc etc if you want to learn hands free and bladed weapons.

I dont know enough about the life and times of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale to classify which side, but from what I do know and from previous posts I Have read here somebody posted that Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale had respect for Puratan maryada..i.e: when visiting Budha Dal he would take goats for Jhatka. Theres also writings of Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale analysing the difference between true jang vidiya and "fake" demonstartion art or jahir Gatka. Theres also Katha of Dasam Granth by Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale. The above concepts dont fit in with traits of the Singh sabha movement...under whos tenure the Dasam Granth disapeared / was removed from Harmandir Sahib...probably under British influence, in the book by G.S Maan on Dasam Granth it is written many copies of the Dasam Granth were bought to the UK and labelled "NOT TO BE RETURNED TO INDIA" or something similar..the British saw the Dasam Granth as a source of the Sikhs martial attitude and spirit,

The point is not that budha dal jathedars were automatically akal takht jathedars. This is not the case. But in a lot of cases the akal takht jathedar and Buddha dal jathedar were the same Peron, why ? Because they are most strict in rehit,they live and die for puratan maryada there is no acceptance of deviation or change to puratan maryada. This is why the British with the help of singh sabhian sympathisers sought to remove the influence of Buddha dal within the panth following the Anglo Sikh wars. Compare Punjab gurdwaras to takht sri hazur sahib and you'll see some of the changes and corruption of puratan maryada that has taken place.

I would suggest speaking to actual martial artists, especially those who have knowledge of edged weapons such as knives, daggers, spears, axe, mace , swords etc. Doesn't matter which discipline they come from,Japanese sword schools, Filipino eskrima, silat etc. Then show them gatka techniques and then show them shastar vidiya techniques. Videos of both are on YouTube. They will be able to give you an answer. Or quite simply attend a class of each and make up your own mind.

It was in the interest of the British to allow a more pacifist softer controllable element of Sikhs to be in control of Sikh institutions, in not referring to the removal of mahants prior to the Sikh Gurdwaras act, this was undoubtedly a good thing. I'm referring to what happened afterwards with the sgpc framework, corrupt electoral systems, sgpc being under government control. The prior mentioned loss of Sikh traditional martial heritage etc..All this happened under the Singh Sabha SgPc watch ..under British influence basically they sought to bring into existence a pacifist controllable brand of Sikhi. There's a reason why traditionally Buddha dal jathedars were also jathedars of akal takht,

How much gadari has been done by handing over control of akal takht to spgc by the singh sabhias and being chelas of the British ? We have the removal of the sri Guru Dasam Granth from Harmandir sahib, the over zealous editing of Sing historical Granths and baani due to lack of understanding, the complete loss of traditional Sikh martial heritage weaponry and martial prowess, the loss of traditional raag vidiya and gurmat sangeet with the ferenghi vvaja European harmonium becoming the central instrument in kirtan... traditionally Buddha dal were the acknowedged fifth faith, panjvah takht. You can argue sgpc announced damdana sahib as a fifth takht to undermine the position of Buddha dal historically.

This has been discussed lots of times...Look upi the video by chardikala jatha where they do a Q&A sessiion on Marijuana and Sikhs... in the video it says in Nihang tradition the recipe for Shaheedi Degh was handed down by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj himself and the recipe should only consist of 5 leaves of cannabis to be added. Comes down to whay you personally believe, the way I see it you just have a load of revisionist post 1800 ideoligy all of a sudden casting doubts and pointing fingers at Puratan maryada..there is enough evidence in the books written by the british as well as our own historical books such as Panth prakash, suraj parakash etc to clarify puratan maryada such as Jhatkaa, Shaheedi degh etc were common accepted practises amongst the Khalsa Fauj.