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Religious people from all walks of life would waste their lives arguing in debate over on simple point- my father is better than yours but rare are those will look beyond what father is pointing towards, apply it in their life and bring transformation. Gnosis of all religion teaches us look beyond body and in realm of undivided non dual spirit where there are no distinctions in absolute truth We are all One.

If people have issues with 3ho, they should use five jathedars of takth sahib to form an dialogue with them or ask them to clarify their stance because it does not seem like jathedars of takth sahiban have issue with 3ho sikh community, not at this point anyway- However, same jathedar of sri akaal takth sahib did warn against sikh extremism in general- I agree with him totally. I think Sikh right wing fascist people are doing more beadhi by hijacking gurmat ideals/ radicializing sikh youths than some left wing liberal hippy singing away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTDO0W4DWyI https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=801629453242329 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=381731731984643

Agreed here is basic of sikhi bhai jagraj singh statement on 3ho and basic of sikhi http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74645-basicsofsikhi-and-3ho-and-yogi-bhajan-question/?p=609599 http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74645-basicsofsikhi-and-3ho-and-yogi-bhajan-question/?p=609735

kharkusingh1996, on 15 Jan 2015 - 16:53, said: Pot Belly SGPC leaders tried this before, ban gorreh sikhs to do kirtan at darbar sahib- Baba nihal singh ji defended their rights to laying down sword in the middle..you wanna take this route again?

I am not surprised my point of that post to show kriyas/vidhiyas/naam/grace truth are universal, its owned by someone bhaap so we should stop with our condescending attitude towards others.

Again you are judging them, What makes you think they are not japping bani or contemplating on gurbani? How you heard of them singing various powerful gurbani shabads with devotion? Chatar chakar varti and many more. While our punjabi medieval sock jockie pendu tribals (i have to use terms to set the record straight) totally dissect sat sri akaal and turn them into ritual, they go deep and contemplate and connect to sat sri akaal when they say sat sri akaal- Truth is eternal..!!

No different then what AKJ, taksal, nihang, nanaksar tribal cultish chelas would say- http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/69848-individual-cultish-perception-and-the-khalsa-panth/

Is that a threat? How you going to deal with them?

Sufi simran techniques pretty similiar to AKJ/3HO I just came across with this videos below..wow i m totally humbled: More info to see http://www.sufimeditationcenter.com/

What makes you think 3ho are not transcending from these stages, we don't know their personal spiritual life. In fact, i have attended six 3ho sessions/seminars found overall for most part they are on right track - they start off with kriyas incorporated with shabad to create empty space in their mind and they dwell in empty space of awareness and further move on in their spirituality. Off course they have short coming, see my above post but then again you want me to list short coming from other groups- nanaksar, akj, taksal, nihangs, missionaries groups. No group no sect is immune from short coming. One needs to see that from eagle eye perception by disconnecting from all these groups denoates cultish perception- http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/69848-individual-cultish-perception-and-the-khalsa-panth/

According to my observation: Whats daily Gurmat routine in 3HO organization: 1. Get up at amrit vela at 3 am ishnan, contemplate on japji sahib every morning 7 days a week 365 days a year 2. Mantra/Shabad/Naam chanting from gurbani and sri dasam guru granth sahib bani 3. Yog sadhanas kriyas (sas gras swas swas simran/kundalini yoga) incorporated with shabad for meditation 4. Wearing Bana openly. Keski for women, women empowerment. 5. Kirtan- devotional Singing 6. Exercise- Yoga-health reasons/Gatka 7. Healthy Living diet 8. Senior 3ho sikhs, beleive in Sri guru granth sahib as living guru and beleive in concept of khalsa have guru sahib parkash, celebrate gurpurbs, nagar kirtan etc. 9. Spread sikhi to other non sikhs parchar intially through kundalini yoga as first step just get them into it and slowly get them into shabad surat aspect of sikhi -kundalini yoga incorporate with shabad mantras, faith building process (vidhiyas similiar like sharda poran granth by bhai mani singh ji) and bhagti-kirtan bhakti aspect of sikhi -gurbani kirtan amritvela- so much beautiful devotional kirtan from spirit voyage and kirtan on youtube. 10. Spread gurmat raj yog to humanity -healing to humanity- kundalini healing equilvaent chii energy for body related issues and also provide gurbani shabads (vidhias-techinques as similiar to sharda poran granth by bhai mani singh ji) to improve health, prosperity, spiritual life also in this way it builds more faith in gurbani, encourage healthy marriage life while strike right balance between gurmat spirituality and social life, against asceticism 11. For most part , recognize final message or stage as they pay very close attention to khalsa updesh in khalsa mehima in sri dasam granth- worship only one light prevadaing all, intially use kundalini yoga (small aspect in shabad surat marg) to create a space in meditation. Whats contary to gurmat in 3ho organization/events and not picking on 3ho, there are things which other groups are lacking as well if we deeply research no group is perfect or infallible, every group in the sikh panth has short coming no group can claim they are sole custodians of gurmat: 1. Get rid of all white tantric seminars hocus pocus stuff in seminars held twice a year 2. Get rid of commerialization-lot of people wants to take teachers training and make quick buck. 3. New comers to 3ho- Dancing like hippies on gurbani- all though one can argue their intentions are good and they in trance and is acceptable but they should be discouraged when it comes to uphold sanctity of gurbani, other groups were discourged as well. Senior 3ho gursikhs can help with the rules. 3. Get rid of numerlogy, astrology all the other stuff so people don't get sway away 4. Occasional bowing to Baba sri chand idol outside 5. Any kind of idol worship be it interfaith or otherwise 6. Kundalini yoga teachers training- thats turning out to be road block as its more bragging for tropphy/egoic accomplishment course than real message. 7. Evidence of mechinic robotic kundalini kriyas without any devotion of some 3ho members So at this point, its not up to me as i can only provide recommendation, but its up to leaders of west to decide what to do with them, either we can push them away the way its done by certain individuals or have graceful gursikhi approach of embracing them and helping them. In past, senior gursikhs such baba nihal singh ji harianbela, bhai fauja singh ji shahid was instrumental as a bridge to connect between 3ho members and punjabi sikh community helping each other in both ways-baba nihal singh ji still mingle and assist guide where its required, also helps integrating them in mainstream like gurbani santhiya etc-charid-kalah jatha and along with other memebers of 3ho gursikhs best example of bit of full gursikhi package. Both punjabi sikh community and western sikh community can learn from each other . United we stand divided we fall.

I haven't read full book by Bhai Trilochan Singh fully but his bit about 3ho kundaliini yoga -kriya incorporated with shabad vidhi an manmat is laughable unbelievably wildy ironic as he belongs to sect-AKj which has exact same kriya dressed it up as very sikhi eccentric names . It's all same kriyas mantras being different, most of 3ho mantras are from gurbani, dasam granth etc. I have studied main 3ho ,akj, sufi naam kriyas/vidhiyas. It's laughable to think they are different.

I take approach of famous katha vachik (bhai pinderpal singh, sant singh maskeen, various sant mahapursh) they would address wide spectrum of social issues (all of these stuff included) by giving puratan/historical examples of people with short coming who have fell in maya but also give examples how they redeem themselves- i think gurbani also gives example how indra raja screwed up but also was able to redeem himself at the end. Traditional katha vachik gurmat parchar is quite effective lot of monaie or sardars who just couldn't get right sangat and got into manmat but when they got sangat, they came back in fold-gurbani has powerful monumentum..it could hit anyone anytime and bring transformation remember, remember bhagat sadhna animal butcher...Also In fact i never heard of any katha vachik attacking someone personally-individually and there is good reason for it(i myself recently realized) as direct personal attacks against person- locks and hinder growth of person not to mention its hinders growth of who's doing it. Always give benefit of doubt to everyone..It's birth right for everyone to redeem themselves from maya. Lets not discourage growth of person by personally attacking them.

According to my research, Miri-Piri has nothing to do with regular politics that we often see in sikh jagat these days which is born out of mind- five vices- jealously/irkha/tribalism, worldly moral compass, trai gun maya- rajo,sato, tamo etc. In Gurmat, Piri- sipahihood is naturally born or spontaneously risen out of dharma miri - saint, thats why sant is first then sipahi not the other way around. The divine Miri Piri started by Sri Guru hargobind sahib is born naturally from pure divine consciousness (hukam rajia chalna- abide in hakum and follow through hakum which is always unfolding and its constant and unintermittent flow) and its not from maya or mind nor it can be manually enforced by mind.

I would say also naam simran is probably first priority than naam dridh or any jugti/vidhi because naam simran (truth-remembrance which develops bairaag/love) has to be deep-rooted in one first one can go on use naam dridh or various naam jugti/vidhi to do jaap otherwise ego kicks in- start turning this naam dridhi or any vidhi into - sense of accomplishment, stages, spiritual aim, higher or lower state of consciousness, ego camping out at 3rd eye, shabad resonance, dasam dwar. All these higher states are good to have but they are relative truth they are not there from absolute point of view*, and in order to transcendent them (if they come in your path) or abandon need for them you need absolute unconditional love for truth (naam) and bairaag which only naam simran -truth remembrance takes you deeply. And the beauty of naam simran, there are no technicalities of it- its not vidhi or naam dridh, so anyone can do it as there are no complexities as its remembrance you just honesty, earnestness, absolute desire for truth-naam and slowly truth will throb on you too unexpectedly by absolute truth-Ikongkar. We think as if ikongkar (truth) is dead and relative but truth is alive- HERE AND NOW, this absolute truth- bhramgyan is one in all, all in one- every much happening all the time here and now. *From absolute truth view/perspective standpoint (Ikongkar/Mool Mantar), there are no relative truths or states its only ONE non dual(Advait-Ikongkar) absolute reality. Just like sea is not aware of its wave (no separate I distinction or relative truths or reality), just like that from absolute view- absolute is not aware of its relative truths/reality It's all ONE in all, ALL in ONE...!!

You can buy and use items of luxuries- nice vehicles, houses, luxuries as long as you can be completely honest, sincere with yourself and look at them directly and come to deeper understanding within yourself - that these things are transient, temporary comfort - you control them, they don't control you. You control them in a sense you(your thoughts)- you see your thoughts arising and subsiding them resolve in your temporary witness state not taking out of witness driving you crazy, your thoughts are giving them power as much it requires- right balance between simple and comfortable living-nothing overboard. If you are in deep connection with yourself- watching your thoughts, you will know when they start controlling you in conditioned pattern. Your point regarding loose it all and make it back denotes conditioned pattern-. Sikhi has no place for this kind of conditioning- mind conditioning . It's not competition or money game as they say in business world I guess first and main step would be - deep root yourself in reality of these things, truth, come to conclusion or understanding deeply within- you are not your thought but witness of them and these things are illusion, transient since you can see them and they are always changing these simply cannot be you thoughts cannot be you..focus is on shabad which sees or seer who sees them. If you can be drawn or deep rooted towards that then you will notice you are slowly indentifying yourself with seer (sakhsi mentioned in gurbani), shabad gyan then you can take part in game- worldly luxuries as you see things as "they are" through very clear gyan perception. If you are not deep rooted, you will go all over the place as orphan branch who is not deep rooted in its seed- eventually falls in ocean of maya.

Being rich is not a sin in Sikhi. But perception that binds you with money, confines you in money, attaches you in money is sin In fact, any worldly perception that binds/attaches you or confines you is a sin. No outside object is a sin as outside object has no power on its own, its the mind and thoughts which gives the power makes the reality for you. So root is how you perceive it. Raja janak was rich king and enlightened sage, he was described by bhai gurdas ji- Gurmukh maya vich udasi || Gurmukh who is one who is de-attached while being in material world using material world yet de-attached just like lotus flower is nirlaip(de-attached) from muddy water, yet surronded by muddy water. One day so called tyagi (renunciate) sage came to raja janak had a doubt in his head- that raja janak cannot be sage he is raja/king has all sorts of comforts, consorts, raniya etc. Raja janak was silent. Just day after his whole mehal(palace) caught on fire and got destroyed, tyagi sage came. Raja janak spoke then, he said all that happen it didn't affected iota in my state of mind just like deep water in deep sea is absolutely still just like that avasta of sage should be absolute stillness-pure awareness-sun samadhi-afor avastha in the root to the point whole world can get destroyed infront of him in blink of eye it would not move inner state of sage/bhramgyani iota bit. Raja janak also said, premiya my inner state didn't move inch yet you after calling yourself tyagi x, y, z are so attached to small thing such a cane,mala etc. In this way, raja janak gave true upedesha of tyaag to his sage who was doing tyaag externally.

Most people will go through this shabad below just conceptually or intellectually. However, there is hidden vidhi in this shabad. This vidhi mentioned in shabad below by sri guru gobind singh ji himself is probably most direct, powerful and highest vidhi-nirgun abhed dhian/smadhi, this is where all vidhi ends. ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਜਾਗਿਤ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸ੝ਰ ਝਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੝ਰੇਮ ਪ੝ਰਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੝ਰਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜ੝ਹੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਝਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹਿ ਝਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥ pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khalas thahi nakhalas janai. jagith joth japai nis basur eaek bina man naik n anai. pooran praem pratheeth sajai brath gor marrhee matt bhool n manai. theerathh dhan dhaya thap sanjam eaek bina nehi eaek pashhanai. Such a man, in whose heart shines the full Divinely Radiant Light is a true a pure Khalsa. He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind. He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believed not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake. He knows none except the one Lord in the performance of acts of pilgrimage, charities, compassion, austerities and self-control. This ever-radiant light/knowledge (Jagad jot) is already in all of us as jot roop our real self as enlightened self realized undivided spacious radiant unconditioned pure jagad (awakened/pure awareness). Seeker needs to stop identifying with conditioned mind thats done by initially by witnessing the thoughts only, in fact no need to stop mind thoughts as mind will automatically fall off, just simply abide in this pure jagad (awakened/pure awareness)- see through world as one in all, all in one- perceive everything manifest rising and subsiding as wave from your real self in real self- awakened-aware-jagad jot- pure ocean of awareness, thats all is required until grace dawns..everything will happen spontaneously and naturally... If you have deep impulse or drawn towards this vidhi you are quite lucky thats grace itself, if not its ok take the vidhi which you are more drawn towards under guidance of panj pyares. Everything is grace-introvert itself grace from satguru, perseverance is also grace from satguru, realisation is also grace from satguru

Here are more vidhias, whatever vidhi seeker is drawn to under guidance of panj pyares should adapt it-

I gotta question some may find it funny but can we reverse hallal effect on kelloggs by reciting powerful gurbani? why and why not?

Sikh Dharam is best, truly an middle way-sargun/nirgun absolute truth path has everything in it has multitude aspects of divine coming from one source-Ikongkar. It's truly amazing especially if you experience it and if its understood properly. Gurbani (not just mere akhar, meaning, gurbani feeling, gyan, antriv arths) talks to seeker as soon seeker recites it, if seeker is receptive will feel it. In nutshell, gurbani helps remove mind egoic conditioning, loosen it in stages (bhagati-love, shabad , gyan). When our egoic mind conditioning is weakened or slowly remove by bhagti, seva, love, bibek, gyan then naam/absolute truth- hakum starts unfolding within. However, as ms514 pointed out Gurparsad is main thing. Gurparsad is start and end game. Sikh cannot make full effort as no single effort can reach there on its own only sikh can do is loose its egoic mind conditioning by dis identify with mind, be in receptivity and surrender to Guru and instead of seeker trying to consume in shabad or gyan let guru- shabad gyan consume you fully until it dawns. Another perspective is of gurmat gyan..Gurmat Wisdom also says, one needs to relax be vary of ego ego makes it dramatic/sob personal story its all game its illusion anyway because from absolute truth point of view- its god seeking god- god expereincing itself via creation, meditating on itself Sargun nirgun nirankar sun samadhi aap apan kiya nanak ape fer jaap || I am in strong beleif anyone who cuts kesh or convert from sikhism is not because of religion or sikh theology or gurbani itself but because of bad subjective expereinces from people or groups etc. Old traditional Gurmat process is pretty smooth transition, seamless as things are taught in stages- having kesh, five ks- take sanaskar amrit is premilinary step one after seeker takes that step then focus is entirely on understanding inner gurmat with bibek adapting gurmat than manmat not just conceptually but pratically in expereince, abiding in gurmat updesh, carry through gurmat journey with 5 ks, basic rehit-nitnem/amrit vela gets seamless or 2nd nature. The problem only arises when people get caught up in conceptual stuff (loose their sleep over it, debate to death) or wrap their head around intial stages in gurmat-outside rituals. We really need to real low down our rhetoric on some of the basic stuff as i also feel main message - absolute truth in gurmat gets lost in all rhetoric stuff. At the end, we can talk about sikhi to the max but one thrist is not quenched by talk about semantics of water- h20, quench is removed by drinking it.

I have a question why was rulda allegedly killed by bhai jagtar singh tara? Here is the picture of rulda with gyani thakur singh ji at funeral of rulda son? Here is his picture with previous jathedar joginder singh vedanti. I mean idealogical debates of RSS can be easily won by our vidya(shaastar-gyan) branch in the panth- taksal/nirmale. Did rulda guy used violence or had just verbal idealogical differences ? If its only verbal idealogical rss war fare- our reaction does not seem proportionate? Can someone shed more light on this?

Bhai Jagraj singh has done amazing seva which no one of us could have done, to totally reject him or his seva will be totally unfair but with that being said, he is bit off mark on this video. If i were in his place, I would have approached it from position of puratan mahapursh/gursikhs like sant isher singh ji rara sahib, sant waryam singh ji ratwara sahib among other mahapurkhs when it comes to other dharams- they have taken the position- karam, upasana, are different different in various various dharam but gyan is one and same- aim to realize your real self (man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchain)..same gyan is found if you really look in all major dharams . Gyan gnosis is all same in dharams. Sikhi has clear edge because its flying path (seva and simran as wings) as opposed to ridiculous austerities in other paths, gyan gnosis its more evident, more direct-parchand-pristine and more wide spread among our priceless scriptures its not polluted, camouflaged by karam kaands and other stuff- read - sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale comparison of mahavaks in japji sahib. Same goes with bhagats like kabir and fariid, at the end of their journey they rejected shariat, marfat level- at their dharam entered the realm of gyan gnosis of their dharam so from that position they rejected actual shariat within their dharam- they kept basic shariat but transcendented the rest. One of the reasons they were included in our scriptures because they were rejected by sharia panthis within their dharam , they were outcast but they were glorified by our gareeb nawaj guru sahiban... we often to see who hold sharia not as stage-realtive truth but actual reality-absolute truth really do caught up in it, wrap their head around it which takes years if not life times and reject higher reality start all kinds of silly wars, fight each other over nitty gritty differences. Also when it comes to our sikh community, unfortunately we are not able to take full advantage of it fully. This is from sant harnam singh rampur khera wale biography. Darshan I was reading Se Kanehaa last night about Baba Harnam Singh having darshan of Jesus, Mohammed and Priggu (I'm not sure I've got this last name correct, but he was some Rishi/Muni/Yogi) while in samadhi. These were their comments: Mohammed: Guru Nanak has achieved what no one else could achieve in this world, but the Sikhs are not taking advantage of this great achievement. Rishi/Muni/Yogi: Our Panthh is wrapped up in Jap Thap an continues to attain spritual powers but we have never attained Amrit Ras which is what Guru Nanak gave to the Sikhs Jesus: My only wish is that all my Panth go and follow Guru Nanak's teachings.

Our first mistake is that the way we view shaheeds/soormas with one pre conditioned yard stick. Many muslims used this similiar idiolized pre conditioned yard stick in other areas, they do this all the time thats why they are divided into 72 sects over nitty gritty differences all fighting with each other, killing each other. We don't have that idiolized sharia like many muslims do. Guru gave us bibek(contexualization, guage each circumstances seperately, stages, asecpts) which many muslims do not have available at intial stages. Each shaheed/soorma are unique in their way, comparing them with one another its biggest mistake. There are different stages of shaheed singhs, there are different level of soorma's and there are different different circumstances tied to each shaheed/soorma's personal story.

There is relative truth and there is absolute truth. Elements of relative truth (in this case- father scolding) is mentioned to invoke discipline aspect, make dharam foundation strong its circumstantial used to address issues - bring balance in one's life. This relative truth does not , cannot and should not apply to all, or all circumstances or should not be used to gauge all situations. Thats what crazy mullahs do in islam..we are not crazy mullahs..Guru gives us bibek use it. Look at our sikh bhagats- did any of bhagats have physical shastars with them? did bhai ghaniya ji had a shastar with them when they start sevapanthi tradition after guru's happiness/blessing/permission. Guru maharaj had kavi court with 52 kavi/court poets..did he rejected all of them just because they didn't had shastars or may be from different spiritual traditions may be cut hair? did he kicked them out on the premise of "dont come to my darshan without kesh and shastars" ? If you must follow relative truth as literally go ahead pictures this- "dont come to my darshan without kesh and shastars" ? Why don't you to apply for perhadar job at the gurdwara? Considering you perceive all ten gurus, tenth guru sitting on throne near sri guru granth sahib, sri dasam guru granth..start policiing , have all same sort of check points at the darbar - selectively allow people? Please go ahead do that..let us know feedback you get from gyani at your local gurdwara or your jathedar.