West London Singh

Yes they were. You're getting famous on the message board Dal Singh for knowing sweet fanny adams about sweet fanny adams, so it doesn't surprise me that your version of Sikh history in the west starts when your own family history started in the west...i.e the 1960's. I have many many relatives who are part of the 'old' familes from early last century in both Canada and especially rural northern California. One thing they all have in common is that they came to the west coast of the Americas directly...NOT from Punjab....but from active service in the British Army in places such as Shanghai....Hong Kong....and mainland China. Every last one of the early pioneers was an ex-British Army serviceman in the far east. Difference between me and you is that you are a negative person. You can then start to question the motive in the background of everything in day to day life. When you reach the other side of the road to get to your house....start being negative and morbid again.....start analysing how the only reason you had to cross the road was the discriminatory practices of successive elitist governments who deliberately knocked down houses and built ring roads in the poorer parts of town just to kill off working class communities. :rolleyes: Perhaps the British should take a leaf out of your own book...becoming as depressing and negative as you and start top realise that my Sikh forefathers, while professing loyalty and love for the union jack, were actually just in it for the money and the glory......the chance of a job....the chance to move to better places. Perhaps, it was us using them as a stepping stone ? The fact of the matter is that the British and especially their army were the greatest thing ever to happen to Sikhs, Sikhism and the Punjab (since the fall of the Sikh Kingdom).

:wacko:Oh come on , I beg of you all.....Please don't make all of us Sikhs look dumb by complaining. There's already loadsa people who think we're not very clever. Can you not understand the humour ? Can you not understand how the presenter is making a mockery of the racist Republican ? I can understand our American and Canadian friends here not understanding irony in humour, but if my fellow English Sikhs here don't understand irony then I feel they might struggle to enjoy life here in this country because irony plays a major part in the humour.

I can sometimes understand ignorant Hindus questioing why the Sikhs fought in the British Army, but I'm shocked at how so many Sikhs here are asking the same question. Does the question really need asking ? It was an army which valued Sikhs and Sikhism. An army in which the khalsa identity was not only respected but insisted upon. An army in which a Sikh soldier even dared to put a pair of scissors to his beard on head and trim was instantly dismissed. If you at the old photos of the Sikh regiments in China and Iraq for example, an army in which the SGGS ji was given upmost respect and at the forefront of every battle. An army to which we owe our very existence here in places like the UK and the west coast of Canada. After my grandfather finished his service with the British Army in Fiji in the 1940's he came here to the UK. Once here he, like all the other Sikhs, was offered a job at one of two factories owned by former generals in the British Army who had a great fondness of Sikhs because of the army links ; the paper factory in Gravesend and Wolf's rubber factory in Southall. Today....these are the UK's 2 biggest Sikh communities. It's important to remember why and how that came about. As for the people that mention Jallianwala Bagh : Remember how, the British, without delay, set up a military court to punish the army general that ordered the massacre and the British parliament and people immediately expressed their horror and shame at the action. Compare that with the plight of Sikhs in India. Up to 10,000 get massacred in one night, and the families of the victims are still, after 26 years, going from pillar to post trying to get a single person into court for it. So...to conclude....there is a saying 'those who don't know where they are coming from can't possibly know where they are going'. I fear there are many here treading blindly and don't know where they are going. If everything else is still going over your heads then go back to basics and remember how and why the close relationship between the Sikhs and the British Army came about anyway : The Indian Mutiny. In the Indian Mutiny, the two groups most hated by the Sikhs : the Purbias and the Mughals, joined together to get rid of the British and restore the Mughal crown in Delhi. I pity the Sikh here that needs explaining why the Sikhs joined forces with the British army with gusto to crush this mutiny. That, was the start of a great friendship. They were great friends of the Sikhs and even greater friends of Sikhism.

Ummm....doesn't exactly roll off the tongue does it ? By the time you've managed to say it to the ticket office or taxi driver..........you'll probably miss your flight. Don't you just love journalism in that part of the world. They don't like to give you too much news. They give you little teasers and let you make up the rest of the story. So what could this particular word be ? Umm......It could be 'International' because every Punjabi around the world would much rather fly to Amritsar. It's Badal's own personal little 'international' project. Perhaps he can regularly fly 'internationally' from it to inspect his Swiss bank accounts ? Perhaps its the word 'airport'....because it should really be described as Badal's 'Cash Cow'. But I think its the word 'Bhagat Singh'....Coz it really should just be called the 'Haryana Airport'. It's an airport made for them. We're just paying for it.

Admin Deleted ??? :o Good grief, anyone would think I said a rude word. All I stated was what I and every other Southall Sikh saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears. Thats a strange set of moderation standards you have here on Sikhsangat.com. You like the posts that are based on hearesay and a brief google search done whilst sitting hundreds of miles away from the scene....and yet you 'Admin Delete' first hand knowledge. That must be one hellava big bucket of sand you admins have at admin HQ. You seem to like burying your head in it at every opportunity. :wacko: But seriously though, I don't understand from where my fellow sikhs, such as your good selves, picked up the habit of running from reality. That's not how I was brought up and that certainly doesn't fit in with my Sikh personality. Every one of us Southall Sikhs remembers only too well of what was happening when Afghani sikhs started to arrive here in large numbers not that long ago. Perhaps the admins here may be able to pool their resources and invent some kind of state of the art memory erasing device. You could then travel up and down the country and erase any uncomfortable knowledge Sikhs up and down the country may have. Perhaps this is the sad sign of the times re; us sikhs. Once were warriors....Afraid of nothing. Now...quivering wrecks....Even afraid of facts and knowledge. :sad: Oh...and by the way : OK now.....this isn't the place to discuss popular Punjabi culture, and I'm the last one who would do so because I absolutely detest bhangra and bhangra songs. But.......I'm appaled at the ignorance that is sometimes displayed here. It's not 'getting worse'. It's the same as it's ever been but if anything, it's getting better. This is how bhangra and bhangra type songs started : At harvest time bands of baazigars and mirasis would travel rural Punjab and entertain the farmers at what was finally a joyous time. To please their audience the mirasis would sing songs about the farmers and the baazigars would perform dances that mimicked the farming movement of the farmers. So.........Are you upset that the mirasis and baazigars didn't visit other groups whilst they were performing tax returns at the wonderfully joyous end of year tax deadline...and invent a dance that mimicked the use of the abacus ? Are you upset that the mirasis and baazigars didn't visit other groups that were building houses at the wonderfully joyous occassion of the laying of the foundation....and lovingly mimick their screwdriver and hammer movements ? :happy:

You ^ have to do some 'research' about Southall....I live in Southall. Let me tell you something about these Afghani Sikhs. *ADMIN EDITED* Anyway....Great Fire of London ?....It was probably a Jatt that started that. Our failure at the World Cup ?.....It was the jatts fault. I think it's time to stop blaiming the jatts for everything and anything. Other groups do wrong and then play the jatt card to justify their actions. Rather than blaming the jatts for everything do you not think there might be some sort of inferiority complex issues with the other communities ?

The message of mine you have up there in quotes Cisco is not my complete message. On its own it makes no sense. There were many other paragraphs that went with it. Unfortunately, one of the admins here.. *Deleted* Admin Note: Dear WLS, when we delete/edit your post/reply that means it is not inline with forums rules. Stay on Topic rather than going into discussion of Jatt Vs. Tarkhan etc.. - V.Singh*

I'm not the person you directed your question at but I can state that I've seen a picture of some 'baba vishkarma' in every single ramgharia house I've ever been to in my life. I find it very strange that you say you haven't. I'm not a betting man but if I was I would wager you're either lying or visually impaired.

I'm all for treating Prince Charles with extra respect. There is no finer friend and supporter of the Sikhs anywhere in the world. However, I have no respect for the way the SGPC do anything, let alone the way they treat visiting VIP's. I seem to recall reading a news item from an Indian paper last week about Indra Gandhi's grandaughter, Priyanka. Indra Gandhi's grandaughter visited the Golden Temple last week. She was treated like a royal visitor. :sad: I'm increasingly becoming convinced that perhaps the Indian popular media is correct about us when they depict us as bufoons.

I disagree. It takes one split second for the person that mentaly abuses his spouse to kill and maim that spouse. In fact, that is the next natural progression. Now, I agree, that in a very small number of Asian men, the fact that his wife called the police will indeed make him even more angry and violent, but I think that is a risk you must take. In the majority of cases, the invollvement of the police is the wake up call he needed. A reality check. Up untill now, it's obviously not got through to him how wrong his actions are.

Public demonstrations are without doubt the best mode of protest. But, I also believe that, as he and the other Indian politicians are so shameless, we should concentrate on shaming those British politicians and business leaders that willingly associate with them. What frightens them is the negative thoughts of their electorate and shareholders respectively. I'm talking mostly here about the Business Secretary Vince Cable (who seems to be on some sort of homosexual love-in with kamal nath) and the Minister for Transport Phil Hammond. The constituencies of both these men need to know what kind of man their MP's are friends with. It's no coincidence that Kamal Nath repeatedly comes to London for these events. It is here he is welcomed with open harms whilst facing the possibility of arrest in other capitals. Perhaps one of us can make 'Private Eye' magazine aware of the facts. Judging by recent issues they're actively looking for stories showing the hyocricy of the coalition and Vince Cable especially, who seems to be their object of ridicule at the moment. Kamal Nath, like all killers, has no shame. Our demonstrations mean nothing to him. We need to concentrate on shaming the hotels, venues, organisers, politicians and business leaders that have blood on their hands by proxy by associating with him. We need to create the environment whereby no person or organisation in the UK will want to be seen next to him....for economic and political reasons.

If memory serves me well wasn't the Queen's visit more controversial because although she really really wanted to go to Harmindir sahib the Hindus kicked up a fuss and the Indian authorirties who have the final say on where and what a foreign head of state can visit INSISTED she also visited the Hindu replica of the Golden Temple ; The Durgiana Temple in Amritsar. If memory serves me well, the queen refused and as such she wasn't allowed to visit Harminder Sahib either. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Indians (hindus) will insist Obama also visits the clone / copy Hindu temple in Amritsar also, otherwise they won't approve the visit to the Golden Temple.

If you're looking for the historical meaning for the word 'sardar' than you can get alot of pointers from watching the news regularly these days, from reports from Afghanistan. Often, the news channels talk aboiut the 'Kandahar Sardars' etc. From that, you get a good idea of the origin of the word. In the Pathan culture....and somewhat persian culture....the term 'sardar' is given as respect to a military or political leader. My thinking is that when us Sikhs rose as a power and fought these pathans we were basically saying to them "hey.....each and every one of us is a sardar" Anyway, if you're looking for translations...as with many Sikh terms the origins lie in Persian. So...'sar' = Head....'dar' = holder. Thus 'the person that holds the position as the head' ...i.e the head person.

Yeah. Thats half right. Not the complete story though. It's not a Punjabi pronounciation of the English word. It's from the French word. The Sikh names 'Jarnail' 'Karnail' etc are relatively modern. They start from the time that many of Napoleans top soldiers made their way to Punjab after defeat at Waterloo. With their know-how many of them rose to the top of the Khalsa army...and with them , French more or less became the official language of war of the Sikh Kingdom. When it came to army ranks, maneouveres etc.....the Sikhs were well versed in the French words. It's also probably worth noting how the Punjabi pronounciations of words such as 'Jarnail' and 'Karnail' correspond with the French pronounciation. 'English', didn't come to Punjab 'till alot later.

...and sometimes they ask you to make a chair out of some blocks of wood. No seriously though, if they're looking for proof of Ramgharia authenticity I think the best proof would be if you can demonstrate that you only keep hair on your head....thus close shaving the face. And for added proof its best to bring your wife along. If you can show them physical proof that the wife has hair cut short then there would be no doubt left in their mind, as in the ramgharia version of sikhi, the keeping of hair on the head is only for the men. And there you go. Bish bosh bish. Bobinderjit's your uncle. Happy days. 2 simple steps ; Go to evening classes in woodwork and make your wife look like a hindu woman. Sure fire way of getting onto the ramgharia gurdwara committee.

The same religion.....the same religious traditions...produce the most productive, law abiding citizens everywhere else around the world. So how can the religion itself be the problem ? Canada needs to look at itself if it's genuinely looking for answer. Canada needs to realise that if it is the only place where Sikhs are joining gangs then Canada itself is the problem. I know Canada well. I have 2 sisters living there and I visit at least a couple of times a year. My perception of it is as a child trying to find its place in the world. Widely ridiculed as boring and irrellevent throughout the world, it is a nation trying to find its own identity. Bear in mind the fact that it has only been a generation since Britain has seen Canada as a proper country and allowed it to make their own laws without needing permission from London. I honestly believe that having a massive Sikh community in Canada does absolutely nothing for worldwide Sikhi. The fact is, a Sikh could become Prime Minister of Canada and nobody in the world would even know or care. In contrast, a Sikh in London or New York only has to sneeze and it makes the international media. So you see....Canada using the Sikh religion as a scapegoat is just the sign of a young inexperienced country unsure of itself....not yet able to take a critical look at itself.

Is taste no longer an issue when it comes to cakes ? I'm not saying your cakes taste horrible Prabhjyot but the fact is nobody here knows whether they are scrumptious or minging. For all we know you could be a wizard with ingredients but don't know your gas mark 4 ovens to your grills. I suggest you send a free cake sample to every member of this forum. Then....and only then...should orders be placed if and when the cakes pass the taste test. It is only right that I be the first to recieve said free cakes.

You know, over the last 2 years I've lost count the number of times I've got up, put the computer on with the intention of reading the news before I go to work and been confronted with the news that there's been a fire at a Gurdwara. Sometimes it's in London. Sometimes Manchester. Sometimes Canada. Sometimes Australia. Sometimes America. I think its now got past the stage of just being a coincidence. Has anyone been compiling a record of all these fires ? Is it possible they may all be connected ?

2 things I don't understand about this controversy : 1) Are we angry with a mindless entertainment TV company because they won't allow us to reduce our spiritual martial art to a form of mindless TV entertainment ? 2) Why are we so possessive of the watered down warm up version of our Sikh martial art....i.e the warm up bit that the British allowed us to do as a favour a generation after annexation. They banned our martial art but agreed to let us to the warm up and now here we are 150 years later with our religious leaders telling the international media that our warm up excercise to our martial art IS our actual martial art :wacko: When they depict us as a bit thick in their movies, be honest, we do supply them with plenty of ammunition.

I'm a bit tight with money, Ford Capri, so the thing most important for me about getting to Amritsar is the cost. Therefore, with tickets to Delhi costing on average £200 cheaper than tickets to Amritsar I normally fly to Delhi and take the fast train to Punjab. Air con....leather reclining seats...refreshments....cost the same as a London Undergound one day travelcard and I'm in Jalandhar in just over 4 hours. But...if you wanna get to Amritsar in comfort than look no further than Qatar Airways. They are styled the 'Worlds 6 star airline' and year after year they win awards for being the best airline in the world. Your stop in Doha is only for an hour or so and its a very nice luxurious stop. The newest fleet of planes...so very safe. Most generous legroom, fantastic in-flight facilities etc. Granted the second leg ; Doha to Amritsar is not as luxurious as the first leg from London and chances are you will have to explain to a gulf guest worker sitting next to you how to put on his seat belt, but all in all it was a great experience. If i could afford it I'd fly with them all the time. But like I said, you can basically fly to Delhi twice a year for the same price it costs to fly to Amritsar once a year.

You might wanna do a quick tour of the subsidised council flat areas of Southampton and Portsmouth, followed by a walking tour of the three most deprived / poorest areas of Manchester, Bristol and Cardiff. Then come back here and make statements about how 'rich' they are. Published reports and studies by Hampshire County Council reveal that the bhatra Sikh community is even more deprived than the Pakistani community. They are not rich by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree that Mr Bal and his Sikh Channel are frightened of doing or saying anything to upset them because I do remember well how, when Sikh Channel first started and names of viewers who donated were constantly on the screen a very high percentage of Sikh Channel viewers and contributers were and are bhatra. So I do agree with you in the sense that Mr Bal doesn't wanna bite the hand that feeds him.

Are we supposed to be impressed by this Mr Sikh Channel ? He's saving £10,000 on labour costs by spending £500 on accomodation costs and we're supposed to be in awe at his kindness ? :wacko: Just how stupid do you think we are ? I'm one of the less stupid ones who cancelled our Direct Debit months ago. We stopped watching many months ago when every non-Sikh visitor to our house said, after glimpsing the TV, how miserable all the female jatha kirtan singers looked....as if they were hating every second of what they were doing. Certainly not in the bliss that we kept telling these non-Sikhs about. The fact that you can't even coach and teach your guests to smile showed us what a poor amateur operation Sikh Channel was. We took our money and ran before you did a 'Punjab Channel' on us and our direct debits

Once they've dealt with them...........they'll come after us, and this time they'll be stronger from their earlier victory. If we want to save ourselves we need to unite with and stand in solidarity with the ones who are being tragetted now (the muslims). If you wanna win any war you have to be able to spot your future enemy and stop him getting into a position where he could hurt you.

I spend most of my time at work these days but I caught a bit of Sikh Channel last night, and correct me if I'm wrong but, I noticed from their trailers that they have indeed responded to your question about what they intend doing about the video which shows bacon, eggs and chicken being served in the langar at the bhatra Gurdwara in Southampton. From what I saw on Sikh Channel last night they are so pleased with the Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara in Southampton that they are gonna reward them, in the coming week by doing a programme live from there. As for the kids......you know, it's a natural thing for kids to wanna move their bodies. A good, healthy, natural desire. A desire that is physically wrong to supress. When I saw them, it made me so happy that they're singing wahegurus name instead of some random nursery rhyme. In fact.......and I've wanted to say this for a long time but never have in the fear of offending many of you.....its so good to finally see someone happy with life and smiling on Sikh Channel. I'll explain what I mean by this : Sikh Channel is always on in my house, and on a few previous occassions I have had non-sikh work colleagues at home. On more than one occassion those non-sikhs caught a glimpse of the TV and remarked how miserable the women singing looked....Like they weren't enjoying what they were doing. I didn't notice it myself at first, but afterwards, whenever a female UK jatha would be singing, I saw it for myself. These women looked like they are in pain rather than the fantastic bliss that we're trying to tell our youngsters about. My message to Sikh Channel, therefore, is this : Its time the Sikh Channel got a little more professional. If the people you are having on only know how to frown....then coach them how to portray a happy image. You tune into any of the Hindu, christian or muslim channels and you see people in absolute excasty. In contrast, the Sikh Channel resembles a sad wake sometimes. Whether we Sikhs notice it or not the fact is that it is the first thing that non-sikhs notice. Thank god for the happy children.

So lets get this straight ; Now that all you brave warriors have stopped a movie being shown OUTSIDE in the car park of a Gurdwara (which made you very angry indeed) will you all be celebrating by eating mutton, chicken and bacon rashes INSIDE THE ACTUAL LANGAR HALL of the bhatra gurdwara in Southampton (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) followed by an evening of alcohol and dance INSIDE THE ACTUAL PREMISES of nearly every ramgharia gurdwara in the UK (which for some reason didn't make you angry at all) ??? Strange fruit. :huh: