West London Singh

Homogeneous in terms of neighbourhood sangats Daily Mail. As the recent Wisconsin Gurdwara shooting revealed, individual isolated sangats in middle America seem to be mostly made up of Khatri business families etc. On the rare occassion that the north American continent does have a situation like the UK whereby lots of different Sikh groupings in large numbers living together in particular areas of high population, such as the Queens borough of New York, we find that the situation in the UK naturally manifests there also. In that particular New York example you have a clear Lubana Sikh majority with significant populations of jatts and others. As such a natural power struggle ensues. All I'm saying is that particular situation is replicated in every town and city across the UK and so the person that described the UK as 'fractured' along caste lines needs to have a greater appreciation of demographics and how it and environment shape nature. On the subject of Dhundha I tend to agree with you. My point was that Sikhchic is wrong to simplyfy it to the level that one side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong.

Education. Learning. These are all great things. The majority of the 'jatt sikhs' are from doaba. However, when it comes to Sikhs in the UK the jatts make up a smaller proportion of Sikhs than they do in Punjab. In contrast, the jatt sikhs in Canada and America make up a bigger proportion of Sikhs than they do in Punjab. In the UK, there are other groups who are present in massive numbers whilst only present in minority numbers in north america. For example, the Bhatra Sikhs. They are originally from Sialkot but now mostly from Delhi. Thy have customs and traditions that are totally alien and different to other Sikhs and they speak the Sialkot dialect of Punjabi, as well as having their own ancient language from sri lanka. In fact there are many cities in England that give the impression that 99% of worldwide Sikhs are Bhatras. The Afghan Sikhs are here in massive numbers and speak the persian languages far better and far more than they speak Punjabi. Again, their ways, customs and traditions are very different to other groups. The East African Tarkhans are here in massive numbers and in many towns and cities easily outnumber the jatts. Their have their origins in various districts of Punjab and speak a variety of dialects, whilst many of them are more confident in Swahili than Punjabi. The Delhi Khatri Sikhs are here in big numbers and have ways, customs, traditions and dialects different to others. The chamars, for example, are probably larger in numbers than the jatts in the city of Birmingham itself. It is just groups such as the Tonks or Kambojs that are only present in the small minority numbers similar to that in north america. Education. Learning new things. These are all great things.

I must of missed the Sikh items at the Science Museum and Natural History Museum. Can you remind us what they are ? OK well you're not gonna get any of us southerners to go north of Watford unless there's a wedding or akhand path. These 2 are the only reasonable reasons for doing so. What our American friend, and indeed myself, would like to be made aware of is places to visit north of London that have items relevant to Sikh history. Any ideas ? So far, most of the suggestions he's been given involve shopping malls, trendy street markets and museums showing dinosaur bones. I'd like to know when and how the British education system dropped to such an alarming level that we have produced a generation that thinks Americans have never seen a shopping mall, trendy clothes or a picture of a dinosaur. :stupidme:

_Singhhster_, in order to do well in this world it is vital to cultivate your perception and observation skills. It is vital ti be able to understand what motive an individual or organisation may have for telling you something. Then, you will be in a position to be able to judge how much of what they say is actually the truth. Lets take that article from Sickchic for example. It tells you that those who oppose Dhundha are 'hoolgans' even though it was the dhunda supporters who were paid thugs. It tells you that the 'local sangat' supported Dhundha even though it was the local sangat who opposed him. You will do well to understand who is telling you what and why they are telling you it. They're smart for doing so. The rather silly and simple one would be you for falling for the trick. And btw....things are not "fractured along caste lines more in the UK". Its just that the UK diaspora is a far more varied group than in your neck of the woods. Here, a very many and varied background multitude of Sikh groupings exist in massive numbers. As such, there are a multitude of dialects, customs and even home-languages spoken by the UK Sikh community. This is not a 'fracture'. This is merely a much more heterogeneous society of Sikhs compared to your homogeneous one. You see, learning things is easy. The hard bit, and what is probably one of the hardest things in the world to accomplish, is being able to get a message opposing something written on sikhchic published on sikhchic. Achieving such a thing is indeed a great mystery. The greatest mystery of all however, is the identity of the man or woman that edits comments on sikhchic. A supposed master of the English language with the magical ability to change a comment to such an extent that the content not only becomes unrecognisable to the author it ceases to have the same meaning as originally intended. This great master - obviously the product of an elite private education in India - that doesn't seem to understand the western nuances of the English language and how it has evolved since the days of Dickens. Perhaps one day the identity of the said editor will be revealed. At the moment it is merely a mystery and we can only speculate. I personally think it is the ghost of either Mark Twain or Edgar Allen Poe. I would be shocked if it turns out to be a product of the 20th century.

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Sorry, I've never been to Leicester. In fact I get a nose bleed any time time I venture even 5 miles north of London. You'll find this a nation divided along north/south lines. Whilst the north do know about the south and visit the south, us people in the south never venture north unless it is absolutely positively necessary. Thus, I am sure there must also be Sikh artefacts to see up there but I wouldn't know how to point you in the right direction. Now....'Cha'. Firstly, I am so glad you said 'cha' and not 'chai' as many people do nowadays. The beverage was introduced to the Indian sub-continent from China. The Chinese call it 'cha' exactly like we Punjabis do. As the drink made its way south from Punjab the word got corrupted into 'chai'. And yet here we are a few centuries later and Punjabis with low self-esteem seem to think the Hindi speakers are right and so call it 'chai'. The word is indeed correctly 'cha' and that is why the British even to this day refer to tea as 'a cup of char'. However, having said all that I must tell you that I absolutely detest cha. Can't stand the stuff. Sometimes like a cup of coffee, especially a double mocha, but alas will have no time to take you up on your offer. Full time work + full time study + full time dad = No spare time at all.

I'm sure 'entertaining' was a typo error and you meant to say 'educational' ? Why anyone would tell an American that comes from a place with mega malls and trendy street markets to come all this way and visit a mall and trendy market is beyond me. If you really wanna visit a street market than go to Liverpool Street underground station on a Sunday morning and walk towards Whitechapel through Middlesex Street. This Petticoat Lane market will be an eye-opener for you because it will transport you to New York's Lower East Side as it was in the early 1900's....multiplied by 3. Now....of course you have to visit Southall in west London as there really is no place like it in North America. I know north America well and although there are places there, such as Brampton, Surrey etc that have a far bigger Sikh population than Southall, those localities are still typical north american towns and cities. Southall, in contrast, in feel, sound, ambience, smell etc does not feel like a town in any western locality. It must be experienced. Besides Southall, the UK, and London in particular has more Sikhs relics to see than any city in the world besides Amritsar and Anandpur. You could start with the little known inscription to the Anglo-Sikh War at Trafalgar Square. You could then go to the fantastic Albert and Victoria Museum and see Maharaja Ranjit Singh's golden throne. Of course, if you know which dates you are visiting you should make an appointment in advance with both the V&A and the India Records Office and they will let you see all the Sikh artefacts they have in the back room not for public display. You could then go to the Tower of London and see the Khalsa Raj's jewells. You could then go to Abingdon House where Rani Jindan lived. You could then go to the National Army Museum and (with appointment) see the vast amount of Sikh historic artefacts they have. As you leave that museum you can pass the Royal Chelsea Hospital and observe the Khalsa cannons that stand guard outside, with Gurmukhi inscriptions on them. You could then go to Scotland Yard's Black Museum and see the gun that Udham Singh used to assassinate o'dwyer. After that, you can make short visits just outside London knowing that all that has hardly cost you anything as London is such an amazing city that not only does it have the most museums in the world they are completely free to everyone all the time. So....you make your way just to the south east of London to Kent. See the Sikh items from the anglo-sikh wars at Maidstone Museum. Then go to the town of Gravesend and see the most fantastic Gurdwara in the western world in the town that has the highest Sikh population per ratio in the UK whilst also paying homage to the place of death of someone thats important to your own history as an American : Pochaontas. Go to the historic Cantebury Cathedral and see the Sikh battle standards that fly there. Then maybe go south and visit the Brighton Royal Pavillion and the Chatri built by the Maharaja of Patiala. Then go along the south coast to Portsmouth and Fort Nelson and see the Khalsa cannons guarding the fort. Then catch a ferry and cross to the Isle of Wight and visit Osborne House and its connections to Duleep Singh and Ram Singh's Sikh architecture. All this, and I haven't even mentioned going north of London where even more Sikh artefacts lie.

We've all heard alot about good movies but I think its time we remind ourselves that there is more bad than good. This worst ever movie death scene is so bad its brilliant : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJJou9bY6-A

I didn't realise something similar had been on the Sikh Channel, daily mail. What I'd really like to see though is something about the Sikhs of Zahedan. Zahedan, of course is the wild west frontier city of Iran that straddles the border of Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. I've heard from people that it is a city where everything from luxury cars, tanks, aircraft and missiles exchange hands on a large scale and that the Sikhs are at the centre of the business. I'd love to see some sort of news feature on them. In the meantime though, here's an interesting piece done by Iranian TV on the Tehran Sikhs:

A Pakistani Pathan friend of mine sent me the link for a piece done by a TV station in Afghanistan about the Sikhs of Nangharhar in Jalalabad province celebrating Basakhi. I'd never seen it before and found it good viewing. Hope you all enjoy it too.

Bet your'e sorry you ever mentioned Persepolis in't ya Kaljugi ? :smile2:

Never mind big flops all Bollywood films are big plops. Mind numbing for those not already brain dead. Movies for those incapable of following dialogue, news or visuals without a background music track instructing them whether to feel sad, jolly or ready for action. Sadly, this mind numbing trend is being continued with the Sikh Channel in the UK. In fact, they're dumbing down Sikhs even more. No news or no anything is shown without a musical soundtrack.

Oh come come now dude. Get a good grip of the situation. Firstly, the point you made about the boy that was shot by the Punjab police but survived: Ranjit Singh. Both he and his family took amrit just a few days after the event and I personally know of many Sikhs from both the UK and Canada (all jatt) who have been giving the family much needed vast amount of money. As for your other points, you would have to have your head buried in the sand if you think the situation is as simple as 'jatts discriminating against all the others'. If you really really want to see discrimination then I suggest you turn your attention to the urban khatri and arora sikhs. More often than not they think of us jatt, tarkhan and chamar sikhs as such lowly creatures they go out of their way to marry their daughters to hindus rather than one of us. By all means lets all try to eradicate the curse of casteism together but it is the mark of uneducated, ill-informed ignorance to think the problem can be solved by laying the blame at the feet of the jatts.

I'd always recommend flying to Delhi rather than Punjab any day, specifically because flying to Delhi is between £150 and £200 cheaper. From Delhi you simply get on the fantastic air conditioned train from Delhi to Punjab. Takes just 5 hours to Jalandhar and the first class carriage is not only very cheap it it very comfortable and very safe. In fact, its luxurious compared to basic British rail travel. At the end of the day, seeing how you are asking about tickets at thi time, you are planning to travel around xmas time. During that time, no matter which airline you fly with, you have a 50/50 chance of massive delays at Amritsar because of the fog......with Amritsar Airport not having the capability to cope with it.

An excellent point has been made here. Thankfully, its something that can be rectified with just a little education. I don't think most of those preparing langar in gurdwaras up and down the country even know that such a thing as a nut allergy even exists. Making them aware however must become a priority because the potential financial and human costs would be severe. At the moment its a terrible accident just waiting to happen.

Your argument would have more basis in normal times DailyMail. These are, however, not normal times for the BBC. Embroiled in scandal after scandal regarding the way it operates, there are wide calls for it to be killed off as a public institution. I myself, have full belief that once its role in the peadophile abuse of hundreds of children comes to light in the committee hearings there is no way it will be allowed to survive. The BBC know that. To counter that coming threat, the BBC will, and indeed are, going on their own publicity campaign designed to show what a fantastic fair and balanced news organisation they are. Unless we Sikhs tell the wider public how the BBC have been anything but fair and balanced towards Sikhs, they will be none the wiser. This is not about Sikh Britons getting media degrees and thus jobs as journalists at the BBC. As current BBC news policy towards India shows, the BBC is committed towards only using Indian journalists from India. The inherent prejudices and bias of those journalists matters not one bit to the BBC. There are thousands and thousands of examples. But lets just use one from last week as an example : Sky News decided to do a piece about the Australian attempt to recognise the massacre of Sikhs as a genocide. The BBC said nothing. A day later, realising it wasn't fulfilling its role as a source of news, it got one of its Indian reporters to do an online piece on it. In that piece, even though the clear message by the Australians was that it was totally wrong to call something that wasn't a riot a riot, the BBC's reporters decided not only to refer to it with authority as a 'riot' it even listed in the title of the piece that it was a riot. Like I said, this dirty filthy child abusing organisation is on its last legs. I say kick it when its down.

Now, I think, would be a really good time for we Sikhs to launch a campaign against the BBC. Now that the BBC is on its knees with everyone seeing for the first time how it isn't the brilliant organisation they were conditioned into believing it was. Now that the media, the public and the politicians all want to see the end of the corrupt BBC wouldn't it be the perfect time to make the wider public aware of our own grievances ? The rest of the media is, at the present time, actively looking for stories of public miscontent with the BBC. Previously, the BBC has arrogantly ignored all letters of concern by Sikhs. Today, the BBC is begging at the knees for mercy......it is in no position to be arrogant. Therefore, its time for some Sikh organisation to launch a campaign along these lines : For the most part the voice of the BBC, when it came to Sikh rights, was a man called Mark Tully. That man was given India's highest honour for "services to the nation". Services to the nation ? How does the BBC explain that ? How does a man that was supposed to present the facts to the British people, who paid his wages, for the benefit of the British people get honoured by the country he was supposed to be unbiased about for 'services to the nation' ? Now, most the BBC's news coverage of events in India are written and presented by representatives of the majority community in India. Despite having one of the largest south Asian communities in the world in the UK, the BBC have decided that it prefers Indians of Bombay and Delhi to be its ears and mouth in India. These are the same people who are inherently conditioned into believing that what happened to Sikhs in 1984 was a 'riot' and that Sikhs were murdering thousands of Hindus pre-1984 and then ran to hide in the Golden Temple. As silly as that sounds that is actually the sum of the understanding held by the BBC's journalists in India. Can you imagine if the BBC wanted to do a piece about the gas chambers at Autswicht. Would the BBC think it was wise to use a local German member of the nazi party as its reporter for the piece ? As recent news stories about Sikhs have demonstrated, the BBC is not fit for purpose. This dirty, filthy biased drain on our financial resources is on its knees. Its time to kick the living daylight out of it. In normal times, our concerns would be ignored by all. At the moment, however, everyone and his dog would be interested in our beef with the BBC. I mentioned in the Brar news story a few months ago how the Met Police should learn a lesson from all of this, i.e. the fact that when one associated oneself with the Indians the dirt and filthy smell tends to rub off on oneself. The Met found that out the hard way. The BBC will find that out too.

The milk we get in our industrial dairy production countries of UK, Canada, America etc comes via such unbelievably high levels of cruelty and suffering of the cow that it would be more kind to the cow to simply kill it. For our milk (some of which ends up in our gurdwaras) the calf is dragged away from its crying mother the very second it is born. Whilst the mother is whaling in pain and heartbreak it is instantly attached to machines so that the milk mean't for its baby can be forcefully extracted non-stop again and again and again. The pain and suffering of both the cow and its calf simply to give you and I a glass of milk is something that cannot be expressed in words. But trust me, in contrast, the cow that ends up in the slaughterhouse and subsequently on the menu at mcdonalds is actually getting off lightly in comparison. As such, the man that is eating that meat is actually contributing to far less cruelty than the man that drinks the milk.

Nobody is denying the role of the state in Sikhism and the role of tax (again...collected by the state) and charity, But none of these things has anything to do with the concept of a bank. You are confusing the role of the state and people with that of a bank. The muslims have to have their own separate banks because a fundamental concept of their religion is the fact that they can have no dealings with institutions that make money on the back of interest. This is of course taken from the money-lending fables of the 3 abrahamic faiths but has absolutely no bearing on us the Sikhs. Unless in comes to light that Barclays, HSBC and Santander only exist in order to make cigarettes in their branches we Sikhs have absolutely no religious justification for having our own banks. As Sikhs we're so busy dealing with the hurtful remarks of those that hate us we sometimes overlook the fact that most of the negative things non-sikhs say about Sikhism is that sikhs simply copy ideas from other religions and is thus not a religion at all with its own ideas. This sikh bank idea simply hands it on a plate to such people.

I think the idea of a Sikh bank is just playing to the hand of some of our critics who dismiss Sikhism as simply an unoriginal religion that copies concepts from other faiths. Muslims have their own banks because a stated banking system is at the very heart of their religion. Therefore their religion insists that they have their own banks. A banking system is not part of the Christian religion and thats why christians don't have their own banks. A banking system is not part of the Jewish religion and thats why jews don't have their own banks (although it could be argued that they already own all the other banks) A banking system is not part of the Hindu religion and that is why hindus don't have their own banks. A banking system is not part of the Bhuddist religion and that is why bhuddists don't have their own banks. A banking system is not part of the Sikh religion either.

I agree. Its actually quite funny when you think about it. Lets call a truce Kaljugi. You like cartoons....I don't. Its no big deal. Lets be friends. If I can just take his opportunity to explain one point though. You have misunderstood the reasoning behind me mentioning the plot in Children of Heaven....a little boy from a poor family trying to get new trainers for his little sister before mum and dad find out. Whilst the Iranian / PUnjabi village analogy I talked about actually referred to the movie 'Pedar' (father) I mentioned the plot of children of heaven to use as a metaphor for the simplicity of great film. No animations...no fancy graphics....no nothing. Just simple everyday life.

Wow. Now thats what I call a 'rant' Kaljugi. Seriously though Kaljugi its really very simple and you shoudn't need be to explain it. If I wanna watch a great movie with a great deal of money spent on it I'll watch a Hollywood film. If I wanna watch a great movie with great style, cleverness and a good budget I'll watch a South Korean film. If I wanna watch a great movie I'll watch an Iranian film. You're obviously offended because I urinated over your cartoon example. But you need to understand why I did that. Lets take 'Children of Heaven' for example. The little girl has lost her trainers. Mum and dad cannot afford new trainers. Little brother tries so hard to get little sisters new trainers without poor mum and dad finding out how little girl has lost her work hard to earn trainers. This is not the point where one comes in and talks about cartoons. This is the point where one who appreciates movies understands how one does not need a budget, computer graphics, sex, violence or anything else to make some of the world's greatest movies. Boy, in movies, runs through ancient medieval villages and towns in England and nothing reminds me of Punjab. Boy runs through a village in Iran and everything about that village runs true. The design.....the layout....the brickwork...the gates.....the doors.....Everything about it rings true to me as a Punjabi. Moral of the story ? Don't go bringing cartoons into conversations about gritty realism.

I think the world 'genocide' is less of an issue here. The real issue, which should be the focus of our attention, is the use of the word 'riot'. Its great that we're making strides in Canberra, Rome and London etc in that regard but the fact that Washington is not on that list is testament to our collective un-advancement. The fact that Washington is the one that matters is all too real but how stupid are we to not realise how America, whether Republican or Democrat, bases everything on the events of 300 years ago and how those events define not only American policy but what is right and what is wrong ? We wish the Americans to be on our side and yet fail to take advantage of the fact that Americans would be naturally on our side. The use of the word 'riot', when massacre or genocide would be more appropriate, is at the heart of the nation of America. It is something the American people would understand and identify with. Its up to us to show them the analogy. The city of Boston in 1770. What happened in Boston in 1770 was very important to the American independence movement. However, how the different sides reacted to what happened in Boston in 1770 defines why America even exists today. Colonists (americans) were massacred by the British on the streets of Boston. The country that ruled (Britain) , and had kings , queens and the international community on its side, called the massacre a 'riot'. Killings of colonists were commonplace. But this was the first time the colonists (Americans) realised that the country that ruled over them placed such a low value on their lives that even obscene massacres could be downgraded as 'riots'. This simple issue of semantics was the catalyst for the American independence movement. So you see, if we could only articulate properly, the entire American nation - black, white, asian, hispanic, etc - is not only on our side they will bat for our team. Forget London....forget Rome....forget Canbera....forget Ottowa. Think Washington on this one. Don't run before you've learn't to crawl and walk. Don't go pushing the 'genocide' issue before you've properly dealt with the 'riot' bit.

The irony here is that more people in the world would have heard of a 'Khalistan' than known that Canada had a prime minister called Harper. Now that we know who he is, ask him about the Scottish people then. Lets see how he views some humans as more human than others. Having been to the Toronto area a few times I noticed how a very large proportion of the towns, roads etc of Toronto, Brampton and Mississauga are named after Scottish clans etc. Dare him to make a similar statement about the concept of Britain and a separate Scotland. Get your media to expose his hypocracy. The problem, as I see it, is widespread apathy among the young generation of Canadian Sikhs, when it comes to Sikh rights. The situation in Canada is the direct opposite of the situation in the UK. Whilst in the UK it is the young generation who are at the forefront of Sikh rights, in Canada the young are more interested in calling themselves Dave and Sue and joining the mainstream. The freshies, as are the freshies in the UK, are busy planting roots. I know Canada well. I've seen how the movement is almost entirely made up of old timers. Once the old timers go, the movement will be non-existent in Canada. India knows that. In places such as the UK, Italy etc, the Sikhs manage to get many MP's, city Mayors and the media on its side. In Canada, as I see it, politicians, the media, society and even the community themselves line up to take pot shots at the Sikhs. That ain't gonna change 'till the younger educated generation start taking control. We've seen that in Scotland. The young generation of Scots have pushed aside the older apathetic Scots, made their voice heard and forced the British government to hold an independence referendum.

Its you who have completely missed my point. However, unlike you, I am kind and civilised enough not to refer to your missed point as a "rant". When I tell you how the thing I love about Iranian cinema is its NON-USE OF THINGS SUCH AS COMPUTER GRAPHICS.......i.e its natural simplicity....its art imitating real-life, what in god's name possessed you into thinking an animated film would fall into that category ? :blink2: Don't talk to me no more about Iranian cinema Kaljugi. If I wanna talk to you about movies I'll talk to you on the Nickleodeon forum for cartoons.