UKLondonSikh

UK = Only5 Paji your devotion to Sikhi is clear cut in my eyes even though on a lot of matters I might disagree with your viewpoint. However, I think you should see N30 Paji's equal devotion to Sikhi. And try to see where you and him actually agree, so that we concentrate on what unites us. Like I'm sure you and N30 both agree that drugs and female foeticide in Punjab are genocides that every Sikh has to join forces on to battle as our present day yudh regardless of what Samparda (or none) that we are affiliated with.

Beginner = When did I say to beocme a Sikh u must've been a mughal? UK = That was connected to Rebel's 3rd Sakhi which you said you believed. Beginner = LOL, and you said this on the first page : "It's just the lottery of nature." That can't be, it has to be under God's control UK = So if a tsunami or flood or a plague or mass starvation or millions die from HIV or malaria you genuinely attribute that to God sending those punishments down purposefully? So the Sikh Qaum deserved 300,000 plus innocent Sikhs killed off in Pakistan in 1947 and then in 1984 we deserved 10,000 Sikhs killed off in Delhi, not to mention what happened afterwards? UK = Have you ever considered that God is = "ALL THAT IS GOOD" in the Universe(s) + beyond? Beginner = That implies nature determines some things, which would mean it's a semi-diety under God. UK = That's classic Hindu philosphy you're suggesting. Not Sikhi. Beginner = That can't be, it has to be under God's control,, so there cant be randomness, and hence, no lottery. UK = Fair enough bro, you're entitled to share the view with Christians, Hindu's and Muslims that God decides who will be disabled. Beginner = You (London) also said : Are you seriously telling me that the white Americans who consume the highest levels of alcohol, commit the most adultery and enjoy as much drugs on a per capita basis as anybody else have prayed the most in their previous lives whilst the poor gareeb folks from India and Africa who do nobody any harm and live a humble shareef way deserved their lot because they must have done a lot of bad crimes in their past life? Beginner = Uhhhh,yea, I'm saying it is certainly possible bro , regarding the white americans, and as for people suffering in Africa? Their colour of skin IMO is of no importancee as it doesnt matter, but they reaped what they sow. You think God just punishes people randomly? They did things, those that are starving, and now they reap the rewards of it. UK = Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion bro but I disagree with you strongly. And no divine justice is not random, all I'm saying is that it is not for us to speculate via manmat as to the method, when it conflicts with Gurmat by not being perfect. Beginner = and Guru Ji did not suffer on the 'taavi'... UK = For clarification, Kaljugi Paji was not referring to something I said. We all accept their Shaheedi and that's what matters. Beginner = anywyas, my two cents, there they are. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UK = Exactly, from below, we can see the answer to the whole debate (if we care to look at it) ਅਮੁਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਅਮੁਲੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥ Amul Dhharam Amul Dheebaan || अमुलु धरमु अमुलु दीबाणु ॥ Priceless is the Divine Law of Dharma, Priceless is the Divine Court of Justice. 5 ਜਪੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੫ ਪੰ. ੧੭ Jap Guru Nanak Dev Ang:5 Line: 17

12 = can you please provide proof that Bachittar Natak or Chartiropakyan is not written by the great 10th master UK = The most evident proof to refute the whole fake genealogy ascribed to Guru Sahib as having been descended from the Hindu God in Human Form (Ram Chander) is provided by the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib and Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's lifetime which they dedicated to eradicating false pride in one's background. Furthermore, please provide proof for your allegation of Dusht Daman which ties into de facto Durga Mata worship. Please provide me your proof of who the Charitropakhiyan stories were written by. In terms of Guru Sahib dedicating their whole life towards fighting daily for Sarbat da Bhala and overcoming the bitter tyranny and slavery of Mughal oppression as well as the battles involved and the level of paatt Guru Sahib did daily ... you mean to say you honestly believe that Guru Sahib made the spare time to author the Charitropakhiyan stories because according to you Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is deficient in advising us on how to avoid paap? 12 = I used to like Dhunda as a kathakaar but not now. You seem to hold the fake prof in high regard? This guy has no respect for the writings of the Sikh prophets. See Jaap Sahib, the most pro-gurmat writing of all in DG (they all are) where the mool mantar is expanded upon where never seen before. However, look at Dhunda in this video telling lies and openly abusing (physically with a stick and verbally) the writings of the 10th master: UK = Paji, i think it's a weak form of argument to try puncture Dhunda Sahib and PDS if you simply can't refute the thrust of their allegations relating to Dusht Daman + Durga Mata, the Ram Chander genealogy as well as the Charitropkhiyan stories. I don't eat meat myself so you can see that I don't agree with PDS on everything. As for youtube, don't believe everything you see on there as you'll probably end up believing Indira was a Sant! 12 = Using Dhunda in any respectful way is utter nonsense. Do you agree with me? UK = I tell you what Paji if you can refute the short clip of Dhunda Sahib at the start of this thread point by point, then you never know I might look at things differently. I haven't raised Jaap Sahib as an issue, so like I said don't assume I agree with PDS on everything :-) 12 = People have read Dasam Granth for sure yes. Reading is doing a quick search of "lust, alcohol, prostitutes" as key words in Sikhitothemax and finding that Dasam Granth has these words in it. Santhiya is a very different ball game. Santhiya is a) learning how to pronounce DG in the right way b) learning the meanings of it using the various teeka written by scholars. Again, simple question, has Ghagga/Thailand Wala/Jachak/Ragi Darshan or any anti-DG had santhiya of DG? Yes or no? UK = Santhiya point is for them to answer. But your point is akin to saying that because the holy books of Christianity and Islam condone Slavery ... whilst Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj condemns slavery as utterly immoral ... that you need years of scholarship of the Bible+Quran before you can reject a simple clear cut issue like Slavery. Similarly the Dusht Daman+Durga Mata, Ram Chander genealogy and Charitropakhiyan stories are pretty explicit. 12 = Can you please provide proof that during the head of the Panjab Crisis, DDT starting preaching about DG? What a lie. UK = Are you denying that DDT repeatedly said between 1977-1984 that anyone who denies aspects of Bachittar Natak are "atheists" and "bemukh"? 12 = Do you accept the status of Sri Maan Singh Sahib Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa as one of the greatest warriors in Sikh history? UK = No, for me our Guru's are first and foremost and then Banda Singh Bahadur and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa feature most prominently as the embodiment of True Warriors. 12 = Sant Ji did a katha of whole Bachittar Natak? I am pretty sure he didn't praise durga/dusht daman or any other dodgy hindu god you keep putting in your posts UK = By merely accepting the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata lie, that in of itself subliminally praises Durga Mata whether you see that or not. Ask yourself why are the Durga Pujari's of the RSS so much in support of Bachittar Natak and the whole associatied genealogy lie which it perpetuates? Do you not see Paji that the RSS are overjoyed at Sikhs buying into the false concept of Guru Sahib claiming to be descended from the Hindu God in Human Form Ram Chander. I really request you as a fellow Sikh brother to ask yourself that deeply and privately even if you don't acknowledge it openly thereafter. 12 = Finally, let me just sum up my positions: 12 = I believe DG in it's current form is as written by Sahib-e-Kamaal Satguru Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj UK = Agreed for those parts of DG which resonate with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... but not the parts written by anti-Sikh forces relating, for example, to Dusht Daman + Goddess Durga, the Hindu God genealogy from Ram Chander and the Charitropakhiyan stories. 12 = I do not believe in putting DG on equal status as the great, wisest 11th master, Dhan Dhan Satguru Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji UK = Totally agreed Paji. Sikhs have 1 Guru (not two) so perhaps you will join in condemnation of practices that are engaged in by today's so-called DDT and at Bidar. 12 = I do not believe DG promotes hindu gods/hindu ideology, in fact it batters hinduism and islam concepts UK = Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj exposes Hinduism+Islam for exactly what they are. Today's so-called DG in the controversial places mentioned clearly promotes Hindu Gods - there is simply no getting away from that. The Dusht Daman + Durga Mata link is pretty irrefutable my friend. Who do you think the Ram Chander genealogy de facto praises - yes you guessed it - it's a Hindu God in human form. That's why the best way to describe it today is the "so-called" DG. 12 = I do not believe anti-DG people hold any credibility as they have not achieved any santhiya or teaching of DG from anyone UK = Fair point (in that you're perfectly entitled to think that) but as you know yourself that's not really the main issue of contention. 12 = I believe DG is in line with Gurmat. UK = If you believe the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata stuff, the whole Ram Chander genealogy and the Charitropakhiyan stories are in line with Gurmat then I'm totally flabbergasted! 12 = I do not believe DG should be compared with the great, ruling 11th master as it's purpose is quite different to that of our current Satguru UK = Good, perhaps you will add your voice to the chorus of those who oppose parallel parkash in whatever form that might be. The bottom line of contention boils down to the following points which have really gone unanswered throughout the debate: ---------------- Would you perhaps care to explain and justify the critical issues mentioned below in reference to certain elements of DG+SG which are in dispute: KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta! KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by anti-Sikh pro-caste forces aligned with the Mughals in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say. Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops? Like I said, i think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Raam Chander genealogy and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material and I don't think you're going to manage it! Please bear in mind Paji that those parts which do not contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not in dispute, so it is the aforementioned adulteration that is the issue at hand.

Kaljugi = I'm a bit disturbed at the insistence of portraying all positive sakhis about our Gurus and their exploits as exaggerated, myth-making exercises by anti-Sikh forces. UK = Kaljugi Paji i think you've slightly misconstrued the direction and extent of the point. All the positive stories about our Guru's which are in line with the philosophy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and don't imply miracles ... then no Sikh can possibly have a problem with those. UK = The problem mainly arises when miracles are injected into the Sakhi's as a way of somehow "competing" with the various well documented famous miracles of the Hindu's, Muslims and Christians. UK = Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne. UK = Guru Sahib were explicitly clear that they did not do miracles ... unlike Jesus (who was born to a virgin mother and was resurrected apparently) ... and Muhammad who according to the Quran flew on a magic horse all the way from Mecca to Jerusalem via Allah's personal palace over at 29 Acacia Avenue aka Jannat/Heaven where he even got to see the throne Allah sits on ... similarly Krishna was born miraculously in the same way as Jesus (to his mother Devaki) ... and apparently when Krishna yawned the whole Universe could be seen inside his mouth as if it was a mini-tv picture of the entire galaxy. I mean can you even begin to compete with the above Kaljugi Paji? :-) UK = But even though it's plainly obvious that all these miracles of the Christians, Hindu's + Muslims are pretty ridiculous and blatantly false, we get our own folks thinking that it is somehow big or clever to copy the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims and start fabricating or accepting so-called miracles of our own when Guru Sahib expressly forbade miracles. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj's shaheed-iah alone should have made the matter crystal clear enough for us to put it beyond debate. UK = And the same thing about brainlessly copying the Christians, Hindu's and Muslims can be seen from the Gurdware we are constructing nowadays. Instead of constructing the most humble structure sufficient for the local Sangat we try to match the bling that is evident in various flash Churches, Mandirs and Mosques ... when the money saved from building extravagant structures would be better spent according to Guru Sahib on helping the poor and downtrodden globally. Kaljugi = I'm just reminded of that video by Mr. Ghagga I saw a few years back where he claimed 5th Paatshah suffered on the 'tavvi'. It's that kind of talk that disturbs me on a personal level. Obviously I don't need our Gurus to be superheroes but they had immeasurable kamaai (and the Gurbani they composed is testament to that), so I'd just be a bit wary about debunking any saakhiya which show our Gurus exhibiting their talents that came naturally to them, just because maybe there's some shortcoming in our understanding of these issues. UK = Paji, i don't think Ghagga Sahib has ever said that Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj did not have immeasurable kamaai. I haven't heard what he might have said but I would hazard a guess that he was saying that this was how high the Highest of the High were - imagine how great our Guru Sahib was that despite the torture of being on a thathee thavee their focus remained steadfast upon ParmAathma despite the obvious physical effects. UK = The reason people hate Ghagga Sahib is because he disagrees with the whole Dusht Daman + Durga Mata stuff etc. Christians, Muslims and Hindu's are famous for their pilgrimages whereby simply for going to a certain location they get extra rewards. Ghagga Sahib opposes that and with others has put the point that for a Sikh whether a Gurdwara is in London, Thailand or Bihar all three are sacred locations due to the presence of our Sri Guri Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Similarly just because Krishna was born in a royal family of Yadava Kings, Muhammad was born into the elite richest caste of Brahmins from Mecca (the Qureshi caste) that looked after the sacred black stone called the Kaaba and Jesus of course was a royal descendent of King David ... in contrast Ghagga Sahib has denied the false genealogy attributed to our Guru Sahib being (allegedly) descended from the Hindu God in human form also known as Ram Chander as stated in today's so-called DG. Beginner = Must say rebel, I believe uk London is absolutely wrong in his whole "lottery system" of things. That just would not be fair at all. Our God Is fair. He does not hold a lottery to determine how a child will be birthed IMO. It's much more than a role of the dice in my view. Gods plan is immaculate and takes into account all actions of our previous life is what I think. I would side with you, rebel, based on my knowledge, and totally say our karma determines our future and is the reason some are born disabled. UK = Beginner Paji, nowhere did I mention that God is in some room, spinning a roulette wheel, deciding if children will be born disabled. That is what the Abrahamic faiths say. Christians, Jews and Muslims believe God sits in his palace and decides on the individual fate and individual health of each child being born into the World. For example, they think Yashu Masih's Dad (who is the same as Yashu and Allah apparently) allegedly decides that Beginner Singh Canadian will be born into the world at the time whenever you were and will die at the exact time Yashu Masih has written in his diary and will suffer in life and end up rich or poor according to what God decides will be your fate. UK = In contrast, i made it clear that the lottery of health is a natural one (which as Sherdil Paji correctly pointed out is correlated to various wordly factors). Beginner Paji ask yourself this: why is there a marked correlation between the darker the skin of a human being and the greater the general level of suffering experienced by those human beings? Are you seriously telling me that the white Americans who consume the highest levels of alcohol, commit the most adultery and enjoy as much drugs on a per capita basis as anybody else have prayed the most in their previous lives whilst the poor gareeb folks from India and Africa who do nobody any harm and live a humble shareef way deserved their lot because they must have done a lot of bad crimes in their past life? Beginner = Oh and as for the sakhiya? Totally 100% believe they are true. UK = Beginner Paji if you believe that KPS Gill and the Radha Saomi's Living Guru "Dhillon Jatt" as he likes to call himself were both Mughal soldiers in their last life then that's fine - it's totally your perogative to believe that :-)

@ Rebel Don't believe every Sakhi you hear bro. Certain sakhi'ah like the above are fake stories introduced by the Mughals and other anti-Sikh forces + thereupon gained acceptance through the gullibility of Punjabi's. The one about KPS Gill being a Mughal soldier in his previous lifetime is one that I've heard parroted too even though it's clearly nonsense. Also beware of sakhi'ah that on the surface seem to glorify our Guru's but at a hidden deeper level merely slander our Guru Sahib on behalf of anti-Sikh forces. Similarly, for example, the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata concept in today's so-called DG, the fake Ram Chander genealogy ascribed to Guru Sahib and the various Charitropkhiyan stories written by Mughal scribes were a way of denigrating Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and the Khalsa Panth.

UK = Sikhi has never said that people are born disabled due to the wrong interpretation of the word karma implying it's because of their (alleged but unproven) past sins. Who are we to say what people's past sins were and in the process imply that Aurangzeb must have been really "good" in his past life etc, etc. In fact the tenets of Sikhi teach us that those who suffer the most in their life and those that experience the greatest struggles in their life are those who will achieve mukhti before those of us who are born with the blessing of a healthy body but still go round committing paap. The fact is that even if 99.6% of disabled people in the world are not Sikh ... the reality is they are probably living a more sincere life in accordance with how Guru Sahib proscribed than 99% of able-bodied (sehajdhari) Sikhs.

Only5 = Not a single question of mine is being answered. UK = Paji that was because you avoided answering all of the fundamental questions posed in the thread prior to that. Only5 = And you expect me to answer your base less questions? Get real here, i was not born yesterday. UK = Ditto Paji :-) Why would i bother investing my time answering vague questions, which seek to deflect the matter away from those that defend the clearly anti-Sikhi material in sections of today's so-called DG? Hence, I thought I'd ask you again before answering in detail :-) None of us were exactly born yesterday, were we? :-) Only5 = If you want to discuss Bachittar Natak then first tell me what Bachittar Natak means. Then we can move forward and see if you actually understand the latter Shabads in Bachittar Natak. UK = If i'm wrong in thinking it means "divine play" then please feel free to educate me. But I do feel Natak in its base sense is an appropriate description for those elements which were not authored by Dasme PaathShah. You seriously expect us to believe Guru Sahib who had no caste (yes you read that right) ... went on to broadcast a false genealogy ... that's pure Beadbi of our Guru by yourself Paji and you fundamentally must realise that!? Only5 = If you honestly wanted to learn the truth about Dasam Bani you would not hide. UK = Well, since I've come out of hiding now, I hope you do the decent thing now Paji and answer the questions posed in the thread that you've consistently dodged up until now? Only5 = From your post it is visible you want to spread your manmat here and nothing more. UK = Paji, what bigger manmat can there be than accepting the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Raam Chander genealogy + Charitropakhiyan stories as pure Gurbani? Only5 = Also from you so called caste comments it is clear you have not read Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. Have any of the Bhagats said there caste in Gurbani? UK = I have in fact Paji, albeit not enough ... but your point regarding the Bhagats mentions hold no validity whatsoever ... there is a difference between humbly accepting the occupations the Bhagats were engaged in when Hindu+Muslim society despised the very same ... and claiming to be descended from the most elite lineage in Hindu culture + society. If you don't see that and it's contradiction to the whole ethos of Vasakhi 1699 and the birth of the Khalsa Panth then I feel you are not being honest to yourself. You really might as well as join the hordes that ignore Sri Anandpur Sahib in preference of Sri Hemkunt Sahib and takes some photo's of Maa Durga statues while you're at it ... because according to you, if Sant Ji said it's true ... then it must be true ... regardless of the lifetime evidence of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj that we have and the birth of the Khalsa Panth. Only5 = You are so against Sri Charitorpakhyan UK = Paji, every Sikh ought to be because the tales simply weren't written by Dashmesh Pithah! Or are you basically saying that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is too limited and doesn't contain all the answers needed? That in the midst of fighting tyranny, oppression and a society for Sarbat Da Bhala ... Guru Sahib made the time to write that? LoL! Paji you may convince a few of such pure anti-Gurmat ideology ... but sooner or later the secret will be out and then people will ask why did these pro-100% of today's so-called DG folks accept and promote such anti-Sikhi, anti-Gurmat and anti-Amritdhari material for so long? And what was their hidden agenda in maligning Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and deflecting focus away from the birth of the Khalsa Panth? Or was it just blind faith as most suspect. Only5 = and your ignorance shows very clearly that if i present one shabad from Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, you would reject it because your mind is not able to grasp the message and is stuck on what you can't get past. UK = I'm a Sikh + I will never reject a single letter of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj because I have read Guru Sahib and I firmly believe in everything (though I daresay me and you might interpret certain things differently). What I won't do is believe in those aspects of today's so-called DG that stand in contradiction of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Like I said the onus is on you to justify each and every anti-Sikh element to today's so-called DG. Please explain in detail the whole story about Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, all the Charitropakhiyan stories and justify why Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj would have (in your opinion) broadcasted to the whole world the whole Raam Chander genealogy? I respect your devotion a lot but frankly it's disappointing that you can't plainly see which forces stood to gain from the Raam Chander genealogy and the Dusht Daman story gaining wider acceptance. Blind faith simply isn't good enough Paji. You're not answerable to your Sant Ji. We as Sikhs are answerable to ParmAathma. Only5 = So before we go any further answer my simple questions. UK = Ditto i've answered now ... so I hope will you do the courtesy of answering the points addressed to you in full detail? Only5 = First one is up in this post and here is the next one, which i already asked and you ignored out of your own self interest. Only5 = Are devta, devis, demons, Jamdhoot real according to Gurmat? UK = My interpretation is that they have relavance in a metaphoric sense but not much more beyond that. UK = Paji, look at it like this if you can provide a detailed and lengthy breakdown answering the main questions posed in the thread against the lack of authenticity corroborating sections of today's so-called DG ... then you could save the whole forum from falling into the so-called "manmat" of rejecting the false Dusht Daman + Durga Mata concept, rejecting the fake Raam Chander genealogy and you could even convince them of why the Charitropakhiyan stories were so necassary to write during Aurangzeb's rule when Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj already gave us all the protection we need. UK = Perhaps you might even care to refute what Dhunda Sahib says on the video line by line? ---------------------------------------- @ onlyfive Paji would you perhaps care to explain and justify the critical issues mentioned below in reference to certain elements of DG+SG which are in dispute: KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta! KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by anti-Sikh pro-caste forces aligned with the Mughals in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say. Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops? Like I said onlyfive Paji, i think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Raam Chander genealogy and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material and I don't think you're going to manage it! Please bear in mind Paji that those parts which do not contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not in dispute, so it is the aforementioned adulteration that is the issue at hand.

Gurds = My personal experience is a lot of people will say they don't believe in caste but to some degree they might. UK = Paji as long as we all agree that anyone who believes in caste supremacy or caste endogamy does not believe in the essence of Sikhi. Hence a self-defined Jatt in East Punjab who doesn't truly believe in Sikhi can be Muslim or Hindu like 80% of their brothers in Pakistan + Haryana/Delhi etc. But a self-defined Jatt that believes in caste supremacy and caste endogamy cannot be Sikh per se (even though some will inevitably choose to define themselves as that). "Jatt" in the previous sentence can be freely substitiuted for any supremacist of another background who believes in caste endogamy - marrying exclusively within their so-called caste/tribe for the sake of it. Gurds = I mean how many amritdhari couples do you know that have married someone outside of their baradari? UK = Plenty have and the phenomena is increasing in the Diaspora year after year. Gurds = Sikhs belong to the Khalsa but end of the day we all know even if we don't believe in caste what your background is caste wise. UK = There are plenty of Gursikhs who simply have no background that you can pigeon-hole them into and who will never self-segmentalise themselves. And this is not a new phenomenon but the percentage in this category increase year after year (albeit too slowly thanks to the casteists) Gurds = I mean a amritdhari jatt will rarely marry a tarkan a tarkan marry a chammar or chammar marry a bihari bhayia who has took Amrit. UK = Historically in the case of de facto patits your argument may have had merit but it doesn't apply to true Amritdhari's. UK = The term amritdhari jatt is an even bigger oxymoron than the self-defined label of jatt Sikh (one can only be one or the other) UK = You can apply what you're saying to Kesdhari Sikhs but let's not disparage the Khalsa Panth without any evidence whatsoever. Gurds = Only when amritdhari Sikhs truly believe in no jath path UK = All true Amritdhari's utterly reject jaath-paath as that was the foundation stone of what the Khalsa Panth is about. Gurds = and inter Marry will the wider punjabi community pay heed UK = Agreed, intermarriage between historical sub-sections has got to be hammered home as an urgent priority within the Panth Gurds = as you can say it till the cows come home but how many of the posters in this thread are married to or have a family member married to someone from a higher or lower baradari ? UK = Paji respectfully, I think you're speaking for the majority of the members of your family rather than the majority of this forum's Sangat Gurds = I think most of your families are from the same, even though you don't believe in caste. UK = I daresay you're probably correct but this generation has the potential to challenge our Qaum's rather pitiful state in relation to jaath-paath-biraderi matters nowadays given that 313 years have passed since Vasakhi 1699. Killing off the separate matrimonial circle mindset is the key.

I agree with the overall direction you are coming from on this Paji. These committee wale clowns who are allowing terms like "clean shaven" and "community" on Gurdwara matrimonial listings need to get their heads examined. The very maximum that can be tolerated to keep the non-Amritdhari majority of the community "sweet" would be to indicate in listings whether folks are Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari.

@ mrsingh12 12 = The reason why I believe in the stories is that I believe they are written by the great 10th master of the Sikhs. UK = I respect your viewpoint Paji and I respect the nimrata of Sikhs who feel that they are too neech to challenge anything which has allegedly been claimed to be written by Dasme PaathShah according to what their Sants have stated to them. However, if controversial parts of today's so-called DG stand against what Dasme PaathShah stood and fought for during their entire life ... then I would respectfully request that you ask your conscience if Dasme PaathShah would want his Sikhs to know our Guru well enough to at least apply the Bibek Buddhi of our sache Panj Piare in removing contaminated anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikhi and anti-Amritdhari material from today's version of the so-called DG. The minute those parts which contradict Guru Sahib's evident sachai are removed then the whole Panth will unite under the banner of true respect for a new pavithar asli Dasam Bani. 12 = Charitrpakhyan is the most misunderstood religious scripture the world has ever seen. I would say it similar to parables, where there is a hidden moral in the story. It just people, maybe like you, are put off by the word prostitute, alcohol and drugs in the writing. UK = I respect your opinion on that Paji. That is certainly an argument that can be made - even though I disagree with it. Because, what that fundamentally implies is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj doesn't already contain adequate direction to inocculate us from the temptations of paap. Even though I see my respected pro-DG brothers put up a valiant argument by arguing that one just needs to search harder in the content for the hidden moral meaning, I 100% absolutely believe that you all struggle (internally) to accept the same. I feel sad that passionate and changeh Sikhs are reduced to de facto becoming apologists for writings that the other half (or silent majority) of the Panth can clearly see are authored by anti-Sikh forces for the sole purpose of maligning Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the birth of the Khalsa Panth. 12 = I havent heard Damdami Taksal being vocal on DG parkash? UK = Well Paji look into the status they accord it and the philosophy that anyone who has trouble accepting the controversial parts is "not a Sikh". 12 = My point is if respected scholars didnt cast a doubt on SDG, what makes missionarys and Ragi Darshan any wiser? UK = As i said Paji, i truly believe it was the nimrata and concern for the Panth's Ekta that meant certain scholars kept their counsel on the issue to avoid confronting the then status quo but as this demand for parallel parkash has grown thus Amritdhari GurSikhs for whom the birth of the Khalsa Panth is more important than Durga Mata have had to confront the issue head on. 12 = My position (i am not a member of any elite btw) is when any bani is to be understood, whether the 11th master, DG, Bhai Nand Lal Sahib Ji or Bhai Gurdaas Sahib Ji, pronunciation/santhiya/learning of meanings must take place. UK = That's fair enough Paji. You're entitled to that view. Learning is a lifelong project for us as Sikhs. But the position of others is also that fundamental Truth is resplendent and clear in it's clarity. For example, if one Mahapursh says there is one God, that is formless + beyond comparison ... whilst some writer that received a pay packet from the Mughals and who was clearly an ardent fan of the Kama Sutra, various drugs, alcohol and the writer's "Maa" Durga ... then we don't really need much in the way of years of academic study to figure out which of the two "human beings" was correct and true. 12 = You cant take an exam without reading the content first. UK = That's the thing Paji. People have indeed read the content. And GurSikhs are up in arms that how can certain elements be ascribed to our beloved Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. That's what's so aggravating Paji. Those that see the Qaum being hoodwinked by anti-Sikh forces are genuinely hurt as to why our brothers (on the pro-100% of today's so-called dg fence) can't see the blatant aggressive anti-Sikh, anti-Gurmat and anti-Amritdhari intention behind the writers that interspersed their falsehood into today's DG at the behest of anti-Sikh forces. 12 = Thats why Sahib-e-Kamaal 10th master created Damdami Taksal UK = Damdami Taksal was a pavithar name to behold when associated with Dasme PaathShah and Baba Deep Singh Ji ... but we can clearly see what it has fallen to nowadays when Dhumma holds a plate of barfi for Badal like a loyal butler. When Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj became our Guru, the pavithar original asli Damdami Taksal's definition of a Sikh was simple, straightforward and inclusive - namely that anyone who bowed down before SGGS Ji Maharaj was a Sikh. From 1977 onwards DDT started to brand anyone against the Dusht Daman concept, Durgawaad or the Charitropakhiyan stories as a non-Sikh. DDT has become a name whose historic purity and greatness has been tainted just as the perception of what Akali Dal meant has suffered greatly under the Badals. 12 = Mate honest question, which parts of DG do you think are not in line with Gurmat. I'm just asking your opinion. UK = In a nutshell, the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata nonsense, the fake Raam Chander ancestry baqwaas and the Chatritropakhiyan stories are some of the objectionable anti-Gurmat parts. 12 = Do you believe Jaap Sahib, all Swayie, Chaupai Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Khalsa Mehima, Hakaet, Zafaranama are all legtimate? UK = If i personally had issues with the above, I would have pointed them out. When I said that I agreed with Professor Darshan Singh's position that the Charitropakhiyan stories, Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Raam Chander ancestry were simply hoaxes perpetrated on the Sikh Panth ... it didn't mean that I reject today's so-called DG in its entireity and nor did it mean that I agree with every opinion PDS holds. He wasn't even my favourite Ragi in his Kirtani heyday! 12 = Im not in favour of brabar parkash. UK = We agree on that 100% Paji. However, do you extend that to actually including where parkash is de facto done jointly albeit that the level of today's so-called DG is a bit lower than SGGS Ji Maharaj? Because to me that's not much different than what a lot of Pakhandi Baba's are up to. 12 = Nor do I feel that DG should be left hidden away like some dirty magazine as some would have it. UK = We agree 100% again Paji. An authenticated + asli Dasam Bani would be worthy of reading once everything in it was authenticated as having genuinely being authored by Dasme PaathShah. From such an asli future Sri Dasam Bani the whole Panth could benefit positively spiritually. 12 = It should be read of course. UK = No harm in reading today's DG if one understands that the anti-Gurmat, anti-Sikhi and anti-Amritdhari parts of it were authored by forces intent upon the destruction of the Sikh Panth. But fundamentally, one should understand that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj has everything the Panth and indeed humanity at large needs. We need nothing other than our Guru to help us come closer to God but an asli Dasam Bani in the future would certainly have its own place for sure. 12 = Just because I am in favour of SDG doesnt mean I like all this hindu rubbish about durga you are shouting out. UK = That's great to know that you admit that the Hindu's Durga Mata is simply a mythological Hindu Devi. That's why it's a slander upon our Dasme PaathShah for the anti-Sikh authors of parts of today's so-called DG to de facto allege in today's DG that this mythological Hindu Devi deserves praise and that she (LoL) got the help of a Khatri called Dusht Daman. These stories are fanciful, laughable and indeed pathetic. But when one realises that certain so-called Sikhs actually believe such nonsense despite the fact that it contradicts Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and maligns Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj in the process it's no longer a laughing matter. In fact it's a serious issue within the Panth that needs addressing as honouring or giving credence to anti-Sikh material that maligns Dasme PaathShah is tantamount to Beadbi in its own right. UK = Obviously it doesn't need stating that ensuring Sarbat da Bhala ... via gareeba di seva ... ensuring global literacy, healthcare and human rights ... tackling drugs, alcohol, female foeticide ... attacking jaath-paath-biraderi vich vishwaas in the spirit of Vasakhi 1699 ... and ensuring Unity in the Panth ... mean that this is a peripheral matter we can agree to disagree upon respectfully as brothers within an indivisable Panth ... hence the calls for Dhunda Sahib to be murdered (at the start of this thread) just for expressing that the Khalsa Panth is more relavant to Sikhi than the Dusht Daman + Durga Mata story really ought to be retracted imho.

@ onlyfive Paji Paji i'll perhaps try respond in a bit more length later but in the interim would you perhaps care to explain and justify the critical issues mentioned below in reference to certain elements of DG+SG which are in dispute: KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta! KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by anti-Sikh pro-caste forces aligned with the Mughals in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say. Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops? Like I said Paji, i think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material and I don't think you're going to manage it! Please bear in mind Paji that those parts which do not contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not in dispute, so it is the aforementioned adulteration that is the issue at hand.

Sherdil = As long as Jatts control Akal Takht, I think this problem will continue. UK = Paji, whilst I agree with the main gist of post #67 and indeed several of your recent posts elsewhere ... I think an important point needed to be made that, in actual fact, Jatts do not control the Akal Takht, they never have done and they never will do. In the 21st century, the Akal Takht can only be run by Amritdhari GurSikhs (though I don't claim them to be infallible) and therefore it is not relavant whether any Jathedar's grandparents were engaged in agriculture, carpentry, weaving, tanning or trading etc, etc. This allegation is pimped against our Qaum by our enemies and we need to be vigilant that we do not repeat it ... as our enemies ignore the facts on the ground that 80% of the Jatt tribe are Muslim+Hindu ... but they always try to paint GurSikhi as being related to "anti-Sikh Jattism" when the two can never be intertwined as all Amritdhari's cease to consider themselves Jatt or any other label once they become members of the Khalsa Panth. Sherdil = Sadly, with the emergence of a Badal Dynasty, I think it could be a while before we see non-Jatts involved in the decision-making process of Punjab. UK = Paji i'm not aligned with Akali Dal (Badal) in 2012. I would have favoured a PPP victory in the elections earlier this year. However, this is another fallacy that non-Jatts are not involved in the decision making process in Punjab. According to latest estimates Jatts comprise half of the overall Sehajdhari Sikh population of Punjab. Sikhs as a whole comprise 60% of the population in the state. Furthermore the Akali Dal (Badal) + BJP Coalition is comprised of a commensurate proportion of reserved seat candidates as well as traditional Hindu BJP representatives. UK = Nevertheless the percentage of Jatt politicians from both Congress + Badal parties that hold a casteist agenda represents a huge hurdle towards unity + progress for the Sikh Panth, as these folks were instrumental in helping Indira. That's why it's critical that we Sikhs in the Diaspora try to set a United precedent for Punjab to follow. http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/ UK = One allied point to the above link, is that how do we tackle the menace of separate matrimonials circles and discriminatory requirements insistent upon a groom being of a particular historical sub-section 313 years after the creation of the Khalsa Panth? Especially since Muslim Jatts in 1947 and Hindu Jatts in 1984 didn't really bother to enquire about the ancestral background of the Sikhs they brutally killed nor (as "PanthicUnity" Paji rightly pointed out on another thread) ... if the innocent Sikh victims they butchered to death believed in the Dusht Daman story or not.

UK = Jagjeet Paji, don't believe the scaremongering that those who believe in the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories (namely the pro-DG crew) are doing. The pro-DG crew are falsely arguing that the Khalsa Panth will collapse if the anti-Gurmat material within the so-called DG is debated and either subsequently authenticated or removed. That's how weak the pro-DG crew think the Khalsa Panth is. UK = The truth is that the Khalsa Panth can never ever be destroyed: VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH UK = So long as the Sikh Panth only accepts 1 God and only bows down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and so long as the Sikh Panth accepts that the Birth of the Khalsa at Sri Anandpur Sahib in Vasakhi 1699 holds more importance to the Panth than the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories ... then the Khalsa Panth will rise to even greater heights after anti-Gurmat, anti-Amritdhari and anti-Sikhi elements that malign Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj are removed from today's so-called DG.

@ mrsingh1212 = Which one is it? That he is a professor or he isn't? I'm just curious to know how he got that title, I know loads of Kathavachiks who know more than Ragi Darshan, they never been called ProfessorUK = Paji, as i said before it’s more a title that the Sangat have given him for his study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But Paji let’s not move the goalposts of the debate and move the focus on to PDS. The whole matter revolves around acceptance of anti-Gurmat material within the so-called DG as having allegedly being authored by the Highest of the High or not. So it’s not about PDS – it’s more about why you believe in the Durga Mata, Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan stories? And in none of your responses have you managed to justify why you actually do? Perhaps you’d like to spell out your justification of the same in some further detail? 12 = You don't seem to understand my scholar based question. I am asking you straight. Do you believe the following scholars/giannis to have great/credible giaan of sikh philsophy and Gurbani: UK = Paji, i respect every scholar who has prem for Sikhi in their heart. You might not believe this but I even have a lot of brotherly and sincere respect for you. You believe what you do passionately and sincerely because you genuinely feel that to question anti-Gurmat aspects of DG – which are in stark contradiction to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj would be wrong because some scholars say so. I do wonder why great scholars and poets during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj like Bhai Nandlal Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Ji, Sainapat Ji, Chaupa Singh Ji, Sewadas Ji and Koer Singh Ji never ever chronicled that Guru Sahib had allegedy written about Dusht Daman or the greatness of Durga Mata or the Charitropakhiyan stories (whilst fighting Mughal oppression to ensure Sarbat da Bhala).UK = The counterpoint to yours Paji, is that the Sikh Panth has only 1 God, only 1 present Guru that we should bow down before and only 1 central Granth against which all other protestations of truth must be measured, evaluated, verified and authenticated. I accept that Damdami Taksal particularly since the end of 1977 have been vocal and very instrumental in the elevation of the so-called DG to the extent of asking for parallel parkash to be instituted universally. However, I don’t accept that the other scholars accepted the anti-Gurmat material within DG without question. If such scholars accept those parts of DG which are undoubtedly authentic and in resonance with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, just like Dhunda Sahib does, then it does not imply that the scholars believed in the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories.12 = If you do, then how do you reconcilliate their position with that of yourself and Ragi Darshan. I am trying to point out that the greatest academics Sikhism has ever made all back pro-DG stance. Why dont you accept this?UK = As explained above Paji. Some of our greatest scholars had such nimrata and concern for the Panth’s ekta that they chose to delay the day of reckoning when the anti-Gurmat material injected into the so-called DG by the Mughals and other anti-Sikh forces would be exposed. Clearly, with feverish support of anti-Gurmat writings within the so-called DG (or erstwhile Bachittar Natak as the entire volume was better known) by various elements within the Panth, there were times when it would have not been prudent to open up this debate. But now that the concept of parallel parkash was being hyped and pushed by a vocal minority within the Panth, those Amritdhari GurSikhs for whom the Birth of the Khalsa is more important than the Durga Mata, Dusht Daman & Charitropakhiyan stories held dear by the pro-DG crew, eventually had to draw a line in the sand. 12 = I am not dodging any bullet I am asking your fair questions? Do you agree that when kintoo prantoo is about to be done by someone on the writings of one of the greatest prophets ever seen, then that person should have done santhiya of that Gurbani first, off a respected teacher, than learn the meanings of that Bani using the various Teeke, instead of reading it at face value.UK = Paji, Truth is resplendant in its beauty. Even illiterates are able to grasp the central truths that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj illuminates for Sarbat da Bhala. Similarly, there are parts of DG which can genuinely be accepted as Gurbani and over which the debate is non-existent. However, the objectionable parts of DG which were falsely infiltrated and interspersed with genuine Gurbani by the anti-Sikh forces aligned with the Mughals ... always need the justification of “oh only scholars can understand them”. Why can’t the common man, who is not a scholar, not decry+denounce open praise for Durga Mata? Why can’t Guru ke Sikh argue that the sole focus of our attention upon Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj be directed purely to that time when Dasme PaathShah held the GurGaddi in stark contrast to those that wish to divert attention towards the alleged Dusht Daman stories? Why can’t Amritdhari Sikhs argue that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj contains adequate Truth to guard any GurSikh against paap rather than the Charitropakhiyan stories? 12 = Do you know if any anti-DG has had santhiya and been taught meaning of DG at proper level?UK = This is another reason people have had it with Bipren-ization of our Panth via the pro-DG elements. So now certain a pro-DG elite has to tell us what is wrong and right rather than the guidance of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj – which if studied correctly should be enough to enable commonsense understanding of all matters. 12 = It isnt a fight between Dusht Daman and the birth of the Khalsa.UK = This is de facto what the pro-DG crew have turned this into and that is why I believe they will lose this argument as the true Khalsa Panth (as opposed to Ranjit Singh’s bipren-ized version in 1849) will never be stopped or defeated. By hyping up the Dusht Daman aspect of DG, at the expense of birth of the Khalsa Panth that is exactly what this boils down to Paji, in it’s own way. By hyping Bachittar Natak as being Gurbani and the pro-DG crew emphasising that according to them Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was previously Dusht Daman (and that allegedly a Brahmin blessed him with such powers) and the pro-DG crew further claiming that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is a direct descendent of Ram Chander (the Hindu Avatar “God in Human Form”) ... the pro-DG crew thus gravely insult our Dasme PaathShah and seek to malign the revolution Dashmesh Pithah sought to bring within global society and simultaneously they denigrate the Khalsa Panth. Either Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj sought to obliterate the relavance of background+ancestry via the Khalsa Panth or as per the so-called DG he (allegedly) sought to expound upon it.12 = What is this argument you keep pushing. Dusht Daman is mentioned in a couple of couplets in Bachittar Natak (if I'm not mistaken) so why do you keep going on like it is in every segment of Dasam Granth.UK = Paji, see above as to why the refutation Dusht Daman story is so critical for the Khalsa Panth to be seen in the correct light and why it is important that every Sikh understands that Sri Ananadpur Sahib is far more critical to what Sikhi is about than the alleged abode of Dusht Daman.12 = The Khalsa receives almighty praise via SDG (inhi kirpa ke sajan hum hain). What about 33 swaiye and Khalisa Mehima. These banis give a great insight into the Khalsa's aim and objectives. Which other granth does this?UK = That’s fine. An authenticated and verified and purified True Dasam Granth worthy of the name will ensure the rise of the Khalsa Panth to an even greater degree than the current times in which the adulterated so-called DG which mixes pure with profane in order to denigrate the Khalsa and Dasme PaathShah – who are the purest of the pure. Not a single true Khalsa on the planet needs the Charitropakhiyan stories to maintain their focus upon Amritdhari jeevan. Not a single true Khalsa requires repetition of praise for Durga Mata when the Khalsa Panth draws it strength from undeviating commitment to Ik Onkar. Not a single true Khalsa needs to accept alleged stories about Dusht Daman when we have the incredible details about Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life before the purview of the whole Sikh Panth. 12 = Please do not state about whether I like durga mata or whatever.UK = But it’s pretty clear that you must do Paji, otherwise you wouldn’t bother defending those Durga Mata elements of DG.12 = I dont believe your opinions of Dasam Granth are correct.UK = That’s cool, we can agree to disagree as brothers within an indivisible Sikh Panth.12 = I am in no position to argue against SDG as I have not had enough santhiya or been taught the meanings.UK = In essence Paji, that could be construed as a very noble thought. However, it’s also a very convenient get-out clause for you so that you don’t have to concede the irrelavance of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories to Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth. What is plainly and blatantly anti-Gurmat and plainly conflicts with the essence of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj should not need great intellectual degree qualifications or Professorships or even Santhiya for that matter. If our great Dasme PaathShah says that pride and the broadcasting of one’s background is irrelavant and a sin ... then you shouldn’t need santhiya to understand that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj could never have proudly claimed descent from the Hindu Avatar (“God in Human Form”) Ram Chander and nor would Guru Sahib ever have mentioned Dusht Daman given that not a single iota of concentration should deflect away from the fact that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj initiated the Khalsa Panth with the sole objective of Sarbat da Bhala (not pilgrimages to the alleged abode of Dusht Daman). 12 = Just clearly, please tell us which Banis you believe are "legtimate" and which are not in DGUK = Good try Paji, LoL. I think the emphasis is on you to prove why those elements which have been highighted as controversial are in your opinion allegedly authored by Guru Sahib!!! In fact if you can give me a line by line breakdown and justification of the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories I’d be most obliged. Because I sincerely believe that no Sikh can adequately justify such blatantly anti-Gurmat material. 12 = Why again do you keep comparing between two totally different events. How did it become a choice between dusht daman or the life of the great, amazing 10th master of the Sikhs.UK = Paji, mathematically let us assume that an upper limit of 100% of one’s attention can be focussed upon Dusht Daman our Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj (with the corollary that 100% is the maximum percentage possible in this case). Those who are unsure about elements of the so-called DG argue that we should focus 100% of our attention on the GurGaddi of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. The pro-DG crew ask the Sangat to focus 5,10 or 20% of our attention on the alleged and unproven Dusht Daman aspect as wanted by parallel parkash factions and their focus on the yatra to Sri Hemkunt Sahib ... whilst thereby leaving only 95, 90 or 80% of the Sangat’s ramaining focus on Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj’s GurGaddi. Therefore, it’s crystal clear that whether the pro-DG focus on a Dusht Daman a little or a lot, they clearly focus less on the GurGaddi of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj than those who reject anti-Gurmat and anti-Sikhi writings within today’s so-called DG.12 = I believe of course that the time of the great Sikh prophets is more important than any other writings, but DG isn't a competition between the two.UK = Agreed, and no Sikh will deny that authentic Gurbani within today’s DG ought to be collated into a new authenticated Dasam Granth worthy of the name, which would be central to Sikhi and an even stronger Khalsa Panth. All that is sincerely requested is that each and every Sikh thinks seriously about questions like: Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?

KhalistaniGunMan = Anyone who doesnt accept Sri Dasam granth sahib ji and Sr Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji in their entirety do not love sri guru gobind singh ji as they reject his divine bani...simple! UK = Have you ever thought that the enemies of the Sikh Panth could have interjected their false agenda into parts of DG and SG and hence why so many Amritdhari GurSikhs do not accept certain elements of DG + SG ... which are in tandem with Hinduism but stand distinctly at odds to Gurmat. KhalistaniGunMan = the panth is already split with deep divisions UK = Where you see disunity, I see Unity (albeit in a lateral sense). The Pro-DG crew have 100% faith in Dashmesh Pithah even going to the extent of accepting writings which clearly contradict Gurmat. But in spite of that, one can see their prem for Dasme PaathShah. All I request you bruv is that you try to see that others have an equal respect for Dasme PaathShah as they can't stomach these indirect slanders of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Ie everyone in the Panth is united in their respect for Dasme PaathShah ... so yeah it's a forum and we can debate with pyaar and respect ... but no need for us to lose the plot and suggest a SurajMani type end for Dhunda Sahib simply because he dares to believe that the Birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib is more relavant to what Sikhi is about than the Dusht Daman, Durga Mata and Charitropakhiyan stories. KhalistaniGunMan = and the panth divides even further with sikhs like you around who reject gurbani of dasmesh pita UK = No Sikh on the planet will reject authentic bani of Dashmesh Pithah. However, Sikhs have rights granted by the 1God to reject that which is patently false and written by anti-Sikh authors in contradiction to Gurmat. Why should Sikhs marginalise Amritdhari jeevan in comparison to your Durga? KhalistaniGunMan = your no better than the heretical missionary naastiks UK = That's what's laughable bro - you brand those that oppose anti-Gurmat writings as heretics ... and those that faithfully believe in Ik Onkar without deviation as "naastiks" ... but somehow the Nihung badboyz getting high on bhang, praising Indira's Phoola pimp and worshipping Durga are "believers"!!! LoL KhalistaniGunMan = theres nothing more sickening than people who reject divine gurbani just because they cant stomach the reference to hindu devas and sakhis UK = Nobody has criticised referencing Hindu Deva's for the metaphorical illustration of a moral but where those stories begin to suggest anti-Gurmat practices then every Guru ka Sikh has the right to challenge such blatant anti-Gurbani nonsense ... particularly when it was interjected by the Mughals and anti-Sikh forces. KhalistaniGunMan = i know exactly what group you belong to by your post UK = I don't belong to no jathebandi bro. I'm just a simple Sikh. Full stop. KhalistaniGunMan = guru Nanak devji exposes suryavanshi lineage? UK = LoL, KGM Paji do you actually seriously believe human beings are descended from the Hindu Devta - the Sun God (Surya) and his Hindu Goddess wives Saranya and Chhaya!? Good luck believing in your Suraj Devta! KhalistaniGunMan = yet sri guru gobind singh ji claims lineage from sri raam chander ji himself in his divine bani UK = So Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaano" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and you're so gullible that you cannot see this is a blatant interjection by pro-caste forces aligned with Aurangzeb in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan is all i can say. Just ask your conscience the following questions Paji: Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?

12 = Ragi Darshan's fake professorship isn't relevant to Dasam Granth discussion, that is correct, but he should not be misleading people into thinking that he has academic stature by attaching professor to himself UK = Like I said Paji, I believe the Sangat have more attached the label to him if anything. And besides study of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the highest form of "study" possible. 12 = What is a certified video? You are asking for a video then straight after saying that any video evidence I might find has been edited to be anti-Ragi Darshan. You cant have both. Here is evidence UK = OK Paji then i will go through it but nevertheless I've never suggested slavish adherence to Professor Darshan Singh for the sake of it, as I personally don't eat meat myself as one example, so one can still have issues with elements of DG even if Professor Darshan Singh is not comfortable with the authenticity of a greater percentage than I am. Youtube stuff is well known to be easily doctored but I'll assume your clip is genuine anyhow. 12 = You didn't answer the question of the academics who are for and against Sri Dasam Granth. Do you agree that Sikhism's most respected scholars back a pro-Dasam Granth stance? If they do, is Ragi Darshan more intelligent to spot something that they missed? UK = That's right Paji. As we discussed, if 100,000 scholars back up Christianity and Hinduism ... but we as Sikhs don't have as many scholars to back up our argument ... that doesn't infer that the Truth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj be abandoned as a result purely due to the opinion of some so-called scholars. 12 = Has Ragi Darshan ever had santhiya of Sri Dasam Granth. How can one seek to evaluate the message given in religious scriptures when one has not even bothered to find the correct pronunciation. Isn't it santhiya first than katha later? UK = Paji i notice how you dodge the real issue at hand and fill in with some vague questions in order to package some kind of response but why dodge the bullet of whether the Birth of the Khalsa is more important in defining Sikhi or whether Dusht Daman and Durga Mata are more important? 12 = Can you please tell me why Thaliand Wala/Jeonwala/Ghagga/Dhunda/Jachak all have affiliations to the Gurmat Gian Missonary College? Isn't there something systematic about the anti-DG brigade UK = I have no affiliations to them myself but a lot of Sikhs can simply independently see that those who accept 100% of DG without question or authentication (for example Sant Samaj who are in cahoots with Badal) are de facto maligning Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji even though they don't perhaps realise that unfortunately. You surely must realise Paji that all the Durga Pujari's within the RSS love the pro-DG crew? 12 = If you dont believe in Dusht Daman story, can you please explain Ragi Darshan in this below video. UK = LoL, even if PDS was to tomorrow suddenly say he believes in Dusht Daman + Durga Mata + Charitropakhiyan etc ... I still wouldn't believe in those elements. Surely as a believer in the relavance of Durga Mata and demons etc, I thought you'd be overjoyed that PDS appeased your position back then by narrating what he did. 12 = Why has Ragi Darshan used DG for his own means two fold, once to make money then second to gain popularity (for the wrong reasons) UK = That's down to him but nevertheless I salute his courage in at least lately having the conviction to reject (albeit perhaps belatedly) that which he perceives maligns Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Like the Chaalee Mukhthay at least he has stood by the Truth of Sikhi when it mattered. Death threats can hardly be described as popularity Paji. 12 = Why do you keep comparing the ideology of DG with that of the great 11th master of the Sikhs? UK = Are you uncomfortable with that because in parts of DG it exposes "jameen aasmaan ka ferq" between the two - enough of a chasm such that all Sikhs are inevitably bound to realise in time that dual parallel parkash is a fundamental Beadbi in its own right. 12 = If the ideology and the message is the same, then there would have been no need for DG to be written by our beloved, brave 10th master. UK = That's the whole issue Paji, certain parts of DG are not accepted or authenticated as being authored by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. 12 = DG has a totally different role to play in the Khalsa system. UK = Agreed, and I personally do not deny that role. However, parts authored by anti-Sikh forces have no role in strengthening Khalsa Raj. In fact they serve to dilute Sikhi and mentally restrict the heights that pure Khalsa Raj for Sarbat da Bhala can reach. 12 = That stuff you have posted in blue, it's tone suggests that no Dasam Granth has ever existed. UK = Exactly, the current volume often called DG in the last 100 years is clearly an amalgamation of genuine writings of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj interspersed with irrelavant and degraded stories which serve no purpose other than to malign our Dharm and our Dasme PaatShah on behalf of the anti-Sikh forces that were responsible for their inclusion. 12 = Isn't that contrary to your position of there are good bits and bad bits, UK = Nope, no conradiction, see above Paji 12 = but there is a granth written by the great 10th master? UK = Of that I have no doubt ... but the Durga stuff, Charitropakhiyan and Dusht Daman stories are clearly not written by our beloved Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. UK = Nevertheless Paji, I respect the sincerity of your belief as to why you feel they are. UK = But, in conclusion, I respectfully refer you to a couple of the main questions you left unanswered: Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?

Middx = N30 bhai sahib, I don't know if you are genuinly misguided or an indian agent trying to promote certain hindu ideoligies. UK = Middlesex Paji i might occasionally disagree with N30 Paji but he is no Indian or RSS agent. On some threads you might disagree with him but look through some more of his posts ... because I daresay after doing that you will more than likely retract your baseless accusation against him as he is an Amritdhari GurSikh who is passionate about Sikhi. Albeit perhaps a bit on the Sanatani side of the spectrum of our Panth :-) UK = I agree with you that someone who simply does not believe in Hinduism cannot by extension be acussed of being Hindu-phobic or Bhasauria-minded etc Middx = Know this brother only an amritdhari may get to sachkhand. UK = I think it's very sad that you genuinely believe that 99.99% of the global population are excluded from the highest realm of Sachkhand. UK = No wonder 99.6% of human beings don't even bother to investigate the Truth of Sikhi when they hear such ridiculous statements from us as Sikhs. Rabh Rakha

Every bogus point that clown has put up ... learn the postive answers to the questions ... spread awareness of the positive answers to your friends. Use the clown's attack on Sikhi as a positive inspiration to yourself to push the positive agenda of Sikhi. His jibes are a helpful reminder of some perception problems we as a Panth need to overcome and the public relations war in which we need to defeat our enemies upon over the internet. Thanks to this recession, I might just be able to blitz out some responses to give you a helping hand in countering his jokes but if I'm not around I suggest you PM brothers called Bijla Singh and Mehtab Singh. A fundamental point the joker hasn't understood is the difference between Amritdhari GurSikhs who have no background and the aam janta who remain entrapped in it. Also sometimes if an anti-sikh page is weak in hits or likes or friends then sometimes don't even bother giving them the oxygen of further publicity. Whatever some clown says never take it personally - we know Sikhi is the Truth and nothing or nobody can stop it no matter how hard they try ... as we have seen all the way from Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj's shaheedi till now. And try to push the following agenda with all your friends as well ... as a practical way to address certain jibes: http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/

Only5 = Can you tell us what Bachittar Natak means? UK = I think the Natak element of the title pretty much gives it away Paji Only5 = Also Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj mentions history of Bhagat Prahlaad ji Maharaj, Bhagat Namdev ji Maharaj, Krishna, and much more, but like you say the birth of the Khalsa holds more relavance, then why isn't it put in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj like the history of Krishna and Sri Chand? UK = Paji, first of all I'm not fit to question what should or shouldn't be included in our one present Guru. However, I would suggest that perhaps the birth of the Khalsa did not need to be mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib since the Khalsa Panth is active and relavant today, tomorrow and forever. Only5 = Sri Charitropakhyan, how do we understand such complex writing? How to grasp the complex world without falling victim to maya? Sri Charitropakhyan is amazing writing that explains the ways of many people in this world. Every father protects their sons and daughters from the evil of other people in this world. Satguru compiled Sri Charitorpakhyan for his Sikhs to learn before they get caught by this evil of others. Sri Charitropakyan is misunderstood by majority of the Sikhs. The wisdom in Sri Charitropakhyan is not graspped by many Sikhs because of their own lacking. They are over taken by kaam (lust) and can't see past their animal instinct. These Sikhs need to do more bhagti and then try again to read Sri Charitropakhyan. Through these stories Satguru is telling us how to be better Sikhs and how to avoid or get yourself out of circumstances which will be damaging to our jeevan. The world is not a box of chocolates. A person needs to be wise, alert, and trusting at the sametime. Read Sri Charitropakhyan with a clear mind and much wisdom can be gained. UK = That's fine Paji. That's your opinion. I respect the sincerity of your thought relating to why you feel that. In essence, the above answer implies that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj doesn't already give us the guidance on how we can escape falling victim to Maya and the other vices. I sincerely disagree with you (pyaar naal) and strongly believe that Charitropakhiyan was authored by scribes in the employ of the Mughals and anti-Sikh forces as a way to disparage the fundamental truth evident within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and to ridicule and cheapen the supreme greatness of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Paji I would merely ask you to look deep within your heart and ask your conscience about the fundamental two questions posed in this thread: Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations? Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops?

Try to start by being the best person you can be (and i'm not saying i'm better than you). Try to help as many people as you can help around you and throughtout the world via your dasvandh (charitable donations). In due course, try to reach the level of an Amritdhari Sikh. To give you a good example of an Amritdhari Sikh - take a look at life of Bhai Puran Singh Ji. All the best boyo! :-)

KullyKhalsa = harvindersingh makes a great post above about teh fact bhagats included in bani have been of different religions. UK = Paji he was very wrong about Kabir Ji and I think it was an unwitting mistake by the brother to label all of our Bhagats as Hindu when in fact most of their words and lives were lived in complete repudiation of classical Hindu thought. Similarly, there are arguments that Sufi's are not Muslims as pertaining to the case of Sheikh Farid Ji since certain non-Muslim Sufi's reject slavery and paedophilia as wrong - unlike Sunni Islam which condones the same. KullyKhalsa = also think the post above is worth delving into regarding each persons set of circumstances...i.e the chance of a third world poor african gettin to sachkand when they have never even heard of sikhi??? UK = Khalsa Ji there are estimated to be as many child orphans in Africa as there are Sikhs in the World. Obviously 99.99% of the African child orphans are not Sikh. From that alone, it is clear according to the tenets of Sikhi that there will be more African souls in Sachkhand from today's generation of souls than from today's generation of non-Amritdhari Sikhs. Not only that there will even be a higher percentage of African souls and gareeb so-called (society-labelled) "Hindu" souls in Sachkhand in comparison to non-Amritdhari Sikhs. Obviously in Sachkhand "bas Tuhi Tu" so no races or religions present there as such. A Giani explained with a similar example to the following ... imagine that me, another Punjabi mundah and a gareeb Afreekan kid sit an exam in Punjabi and we all score 70% ... then clearly the Afreekan kid deserves more credit than both of us Punjabi's (for his supposedly equal score) ... likewise in real life those that suffer the most in this duniya ... come closest to ParmAathma as a result of that after we leave our physical shell. Similarly, let's say two Sikhs live an equally religious life .... One lost one of his parents to cancer at a young age, whilst the other had the blessing of two parents to a ripe old age ... but in all other aspects they are identically equal ... it's clear who has done or coped with "more" (given the harder "examination test of life" faced) despite both being equally religious and honest. We all on this forum were born to Sikh parents, so were very lucky to be exposed to the Truth, however those that come to Sikhi of their own volition really deserve much more credit than us if their jeevan is equally as truthful. This is a real deep subject but one's circumstances and life's hurdles are critical in determining who gets closer to mukhti and ParmAathma. Coming back to percentages, I do believe that a higher percentage of Amritdhari's reach Union with ParmAathma (theoretically 100% of Amritdhari's should do but obviously some are closet Patits like Badal) than the small Amritdhari percentage of the population of this Planet would suggest. Stuff about people who go through so much suffering then being blessed with coming back as Sikhs in a next life is total and utter hogwash. It's totally obvious according to the tenets of Sikhi that the tens of millions of victims of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, Islamic Slave Trade, the Jewish Holocaust, the tens of millions of victims of the Cold War became mukht as a result of their suffering in spite of them NOT being Sikh. Kaljugi = I wouldn't say the Abrahamic religions are false by any stretch of the imagination. There are elements of the truth in them all, but frustratingly there's some concepts which overshadow the good. UK = Agreed Paji, i was perhaps a bit too strong in my condemnation of them. As you rightly say, there are elements of truth in every single faith. I myself know Christians and Muslims who are far better than myself. But my opinion about certain elements of those two faiths is pretty unrepentant and we as Sikhs need to sometimes strategically ditch the "all dharms are equal" mantra. Kaljugi = If anything the biggest accusation you could throw at the Abrahamic faiths (or the modern-day proponents of these faiths) is how they've lead to the rise of atheism or non-belief in the modrn world, which then reflects on other faiths as certain people begin to outright reject the existence of a higher power based on what these Abrahamic faiths espouse as their version of events. UK = Yep Paji you could well be right on that. But when the followers of these faiths know full well that Jesus didn't have no virgin birth (why would God interfere in wordly matters like that ... but not save the victims of Pol Pot as one example) ... and they know full well that Slavery is immoral ... yet Muhammad and Abraham were active slaveowers and slave-traders ... and they know full well that mukhti isn't determined by one's stated religion ... but by the quality alone of the deeds a human being performs (and of course true + pure Amritdhari jeevan overflowing with pyaar as Guru Sahib stated should ensure the said good actions are performed) ... then that's what annoys me as to why the Abrahamic faiths have 150 times more influence than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj on this Planet ... thereby preventing a world of Sarbat da Bhala as envisioned by our Guru Sahib. It shouldn't be about numbers but we need to get real and widen out the definition of Sikh rather than restricting it (and thereby accept more non-Punjabi sehajdhari's into the fold globally) if we are truly committed to Sarbat da Bhala. I truly believe that the gareeb of Africa and the 800 million gareeb in India are natural born Sikhs by default because if they don't believe what we do (as they haven't been exposed to the Truth yet) their daily suffering is getting them closer to ParmAathma than most of the non-Amritdhari Sikhs in the Diaspora living a comparably comfortable life ... and therefore by extension those so-called non-Sikhs are clearly natural "Sikhs" in that respect.

Paji I wouldn't worry about the sale of a former Gurdwara building. It's the Truth within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and it's presence in front of the Sangat that makes a Gurdwara. In fact we need to reduce the number of Gurdware in towns where less can suffice and create a more united Sikh Panth as a result of that. So if the Panth was to sell off more buildings (or re-develop them to create ongoing revenue streams for charitable purposes) and use those same funds generated to aid the downtrodden and gareeb in Punjab and elsewhere in the world, then we can achieve so much more through that method rather than blindly spending out loads of money on throwing up fancy structures like the Muslims, Hindu's + Christians. Sikhi has a totally different philosophy. http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/

12 = I have never heard of anyone being called professor out of respect. It is usually an academic qualification. Hence, you are admitting that Ragi Darshan has no adequate academic qualification to justify the professor name he uses? UK = Ok let's accept Paji that he is not a Professor of Mathematics etc, etc ... however, that isn't really relavant to the discussion ... if someone makes a commonsense observation that parts of DG do not resonate with the spiritual purity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and thereby by false association malign Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj then i believe every Sikh has the right to express concern over this issue. 12 = Ragi Darshan does not agree with any banis that are in Sri Dasam Granth!! UK = Can you prove that Paji, with him saying that on a certified video? Remember a lot of the youtube stuff against Professor Darshan Singh Ji and Dhunda Sahib is doctored in order to discredit the core validity of their argument that the Birth of the Khalsa and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are what we should focus upon more ... rather than unwittingly falsely associating demons, goddesses and anti-Gurmat tales with Dasme PaathShah. 12 = He has never stated he is in favour of the "good bits", he has flatly condemned all parts. UK = No Sikh on the planet would condemn those parts of DG which are in harmony which SGGS Ji Maharaj. 12 = Can you show me proof of Ragi Darshan speaking in favour of Jaap Sahib, Twaiye Prasaad Swayaie, Chaupai Sahib? Doesn't he also say that nitnem/amrit banis in their current format are fake? UK = As far as I understand, he has no problem with the main thrust of the above but has expressed concerns about adulteration of the material and the appendage of certain things within the universally more respected parts. If the pro-natak crew have faith in the Durga stuff, the Vishnu stuff, Charitropakhiyan etc then I'm certainly of the opinion that those who maintain Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as being beyond parallel and looking towards our one present Guru Sahib as fundamentally the only guide needed by the Sikh Panth are in the right. And that is not to disparage the entireity of DG. However, if we have one litre of pure water and then add another 100ml of ammonia to it ... then I'm sure scholars would be entitled to say that the resultant mixture is not 1.1 litres of water or pavithar-thaa. 12 = No respected scholar holds Ragi Darshan's/Thailand Wala/Ghagga/TIger Jatha than Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi. UK = I don't accept your premise one iota Paji. Let's say 100,000 scholars back up a political ideology called Islam that was invented by a slaveowner and paedophile called Muhammad. Whilst 10 scholars back up the truth of Sikhi on logical grounds. It doesn't infer that Sikhi is therefore untrue. Similarly, I request you to apply your own logic whether Sri Anandpur Sahib and the Birth of the Khalsa Panth is more relavant to Sikhi or was an alleged story from Bachittar "Natak" about demons etc, etc more important? 12 = The parkash of SDG EQUAL to the great 11th master of the Sikhs is a no go. UK = I'm glad you acknowledge that Paji. That fundamentally shows we are on the same side. I hope you have the courage to further accept that given the controversial nature of some parts of DG or Bachittar Natak as the (entire) volume was previously known that joint parkash as occurs Sri Hazur Sahib and Damdami Taksal and elsewhere is a huge victory for the enemies of Sikhi who snigger at our blind association of the controversial parts of DG with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. 12 = However, that doesn't mean you can justify trying to tear apart the writings of the amazing, brave 10th master just to suit your own agenda. UK = That's the whole point Paji. No Sikh on the planet has got the himmat or aukaath to tear apart authentic writings of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji. But no way will Amritdhari GurSikhs allow our Dashmesh Pithah's name to be dragged into the dirt by false association with parts of the volume which are not even fit to be mentioned in the same breath as our Dasme PaathShah. UK = If there was proper dignified debate about this matter I have every faith that our pro-DG brothers who have the exact same respect for Dasme PaathShaah would see the wood from the trees. Because like Dhunda Sahib says it should be the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib that holds the greater relavance in our minds rather than these Dusht Daman, Durga Mata, Vishnu and Charitropakhiyan type tales that we have unwittingly accepted without authentication or justification. UK = I'd be interested to know your take on: Its October 7, 1708, Guru Gobind Singh merges into the Divine Light. Among his last instructions is the injunction that henceforth the Only guru of the Sikhs shall be the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. He also states that he will always render all assistance to The Khalsa but shall not do so when the Khalsa engages in Bipren Ki Reet (which refers in the main to: “false, discriminatory and idolatrous practises“). It’s the year 1734: Bhai Mani Singh is martyred in the present day City of Lahore. It’s about 1782: A man named Kesar Chibber writes a book called Bansavalinama. In this book he states that Guru Gobind Singh has written a book. For the very first time, 74 years after The Guru’s merger into the Divine Light, a written allegation appears that The Guru wrote a book. Bansavalinama is filled with stories about gods, goddesses, demons, fairies, homa, mantras, supernatural events, abnormal sex, curses, magical spells and all types of superstitious and godless trash. Kesar Chibber writes in his book that he has heard that Guru Gobind Singh had written a book called Sumander Sagar but that the book had been destroyed while crossing the Sirsa river! Then Kesar Chibber states that he has also heard that some other writings of The Guru were lost during the Anandpur Sahib battles. Chibber isn’t too sure what the name of the Guru’s book is. Sometimes he calls it Sumandar Sagar and sometimes he calls it Avtaar Leela. He can’t make up his mind. He never calls the book Dasam Granth. He does not describe the contents of the book. Chibber also says in Bansavalinama that in 1725 A.D. Bhai Mani Singh compiled a granth combining the Sri Guru Granth Sahib with other writings into One Great Big Granth. According to Chibber this might be the true Granth. No proof is offered. Chibber does not speak from his own personal knowledge. It is all hearsay. Chibber admits this, he says that he is only recording what he has heard. Many illustrious poets and writers like Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Mani Singh, Sainapat, Chaupa Singh, Sewadas and Koer Singh are present at the darbar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. These poets and writers chronicle the Guru’s life and times but never mention that Guru Sahib has witten a book or a granth. If Guru Sahib had written a granth then why was such a significant document not mentioned anywhere by the illustrious Bhai Nandlal, Bhai Mani Singh or other chroniclers? More time goes by, it is now about 1802: Saroop Das Bhalla writes a book called Mehma Prakash. He says that Chibber got it all wrong. Guru Gobind Singh never ever wrote any Granth or the Sumandar Sagar but had some Sanskrit literature translated and this granth was called Vidya Sagar. It’s 1805: Sir John Malcolm (1769-1833) visits Amritsar from Calcutta. With great difficulty he is able to procure a copy of The Adi Granth because the Sikhs jealously guard it and do not let strangers easily see it. Evidently a copy of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is provided for Sir Malcolm by Nirmalas who have “deras” outside the Sri Harmandir Sahib but are not allowed inside the Golden Temple. The Nirmalas are trying to obtain control of the Harmandir Sahib. Malcolm observes that the Nirmalas are doing a parallel prakash of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and a so-called dasam granth but this dual prakash does not occur inside the Golden Temple. These matters are recorded in his book A Sketch Of The Sikhs. At the end of his Book Sir John Malcolm clearly states that the Nirmalas will introduce changes in the Sikh Faith. He also observes in his book that aside from the Adi Granth, the Sikhs do not respect any other book. It’s 1810: The English take control of the Gurdwara at Patna – erected in honour of the Birth Of Guru Gobind Singh. It then becomes managed by a Hindu mahant and some Pujaris. There is is no institution of Jathedar at Patna and there is no takht (Throne) there. The English put Mahant Sukha Singh (1766-1838 and the author of Gurbilas Dasvin Patshahi) on an annual pension and he receives a regular supply of opium from the government. The English also provide Mahant Sukha with a regular supply of prostitutes from Calcutta. Such is the perverted condition of the First Guardian of the so-called throne at Patna. Of course the Mahant is not doing anything unusual since it is a common practise at Hindu Temples for priests to take in young widows who then became temple dancers and prostitutes (“devadasis“). John Malcolm in his Sketch of the Sikhs says that a heretical priest of the Nirmala order who is living in Calcutta has explained the Sikh religious texts to him. It’s 1811: Nirmala Sikh priests trained in Benares provide one Dr. Leydon with information sufficient for him to make a translation of the Guru Granth Sahib. At this time, the English have sent political agents to Amritsar and know that the Jathedar of the Akal Takht has power superior to the Sikh Emperor, Maharajah Ranjit Singh and that the latter is subordinate to the Jathedar of the Akal Takht. Its 1812: It’s an apex time for the Sikhs. The English armies have stalled in Delhi unwilling to take on the Khalsa Army to the north. There is only one Sikh Throne – The Akal Takht and only one Jathedar. There is only one unitary doctrine – The Guru Granth Sahib and only one surname : Singh (Lion) for the males and Kaur (Princess) for the females. The English start machinations for the gradual destruction of the Sikh Empire and the destruction of Sikhi. Fanatical Christian missionaries are salivating at the mouth to convert and enslave the Sikhs. It’s 1818: 84 years have passed since the martydom of Bhai Mani Singh. A book mysteriously surfaces in Amritsar claiming to be the Granth of Guru Gobind Singh as written by Bhai Mani Singh. This book has a strange and miraculous history. It is alleged to have been hidden by Bhai Mani Singh in a secret location and then discovered by a Muslim who kept it reverentially in his home in Multan until it resurfaced in Amritsar. The book is clearly profane since it mixes text from the Guru Granth Sahib with works claimed to be those of Guru Gobind Singh. The circumstances of this book has all of the hallmarks of that famous tribe of bandit story-tellers; who make their daily living by telling tall tales. More time passes. It is around 1850: Bhai Santokh Singh states that Guru Gobind Singh wrote a book called the Dasam Granth. This the first time the actual words “dasam granth” are used. He relies upon Chibber as his authority. He suggests that Bhai Mani Singh compiled the Dasam Granth Its 1878: the Gurmat Granth Parchar Sabha assembles in Amritsar, this is an ad-hoc committee of unknown origin and backing. It collects 32 books which it considers to contain portions of the writings of Guru Gobind Singh. These books are collected from libraries, gurdwaras, village sources and so forth. The purpose of this Committee is to collate the writings into a version that can be designated as the “Bani” of the Respected Guru Gobind Singh. None of the 32 volumes collected are authentic historical documents. This Committee calls the edited and collated document the Dasam Granth. The collated book is created without the consent or debate of the entire Sarbat Khalsa (“The Khalsa Nation in assembly”). There was no public Sikh debate on the construction of this book. The book is created by a Committee of unknown credentials and backing in a process sub rosa. Who is behind this committee? The Arya Samaj movement? The English? 1878 onwards: The ball starts to roll. Giani Gian Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh and some others start repeating the story of the dasam granth. They quote Bhai Santokh Singh as their authority. It’s 1897 Sir Khem Singh Bedi Sets Up The Sodak Committee: Sir Khem Singh Bedi claims to be a direct descendant of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and consequently claims to be the 15th Sikh Guru. He is a tout of the British and has been bribed by them to undermine the Gurdwara Sudar Lehar and the Singh Sabha Movement. He is knighted for his service to the British Empire. The Arya Samaj also uses him to strengthen Bipren Ki Reet (Brahminical Practises) in Gurdwaras and thus to Hinduize the Sikh Faith. He openly preaches that Sikhs are Hindus. He also claims that the Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the fifth Veda of the Hindus which provides the essence of Purans and Upanishads. The influence of the RSS and Sanatan Dharma in various Dehras owe their origins to Sir Khem Singh Bedi. The Sikhs of the time refer to him pejoratively as Khemu Ram. On the basis of finances given by the Arya Samaj, he sets up a Sodak Committee in 1897. This committee consists of his hand picked persons. The purpose of the Sodak Committee is to consolidate the 32 wildly different versions of the Bachitar Natak which had been introduced into The Punjab from Bengal via the Nirmalas between 1825 and 1895 . Sir Khem Singh Bedi is unsuccessful in this Endeavour but succeeds in introducing many Hindu texts and traditions into various Dehras (Sikh Cults). He accumulates an immense amount of wealth and builds a palace near Rawalpindi (in present day Pakistan, near the Afghanistan Border). He dies a painful death from a prolonged illness. It is around 1910. Books start appearing in mass circulation with the title Dasam Granth. The Arya Samaj under the hand of Swami Dayanand is behind the move. The idea is to hinduize the Sikh faith by introducing the idolatry of the “dasam granth” into the religion. A Hukumnama Is Issued: The Akal Takht responds to the threat of the Arya Samaj. A Hukumnama is declared: Sikhs must disregard the Dasam Granth, parts of it are fake. It’s 1921, the Mahants had been steadily assuming hereditary control of Sikh Gurdwaras since the loss of the Sikh Empire of Maharajah Ranjit Singh to the English. The English facilitate this takeover to weaken the Sikhs and their religion. The Jaito Ka Morcha agitation starts to wrest control of the Sikh Gurdwaras from the depraved Mahants. The Gurdwara Sahib at Nankana Sahib, the birth place of Guru Nanak, is controlled by a Mahant called Narain Dass. Panthic Knight, Kartar Singh Jhabbar, vows to free this Gurdwara. Narain Dass shoots down one hundred and thirty unarmed Sikhs agitating to free the Gurdwara. Kartar Singh Bedi, the son of Sir Khem Singh Bedi is a staunch supporter of Narain Dass. It’s 1945: Raja Gulab Singh of Delhi purchases the Bir allegedly written by Bhai Mani Singh in 1725. Sikhs start paying blind obiesance to the dasam granth bir without considering how controversial elements within it slander Guru Gobind Singh Ji via false association. It’s 1950: A suspicious letter surfaces. It is allegedly written by Bhai Mani Singh to Mata Sundri Ji. In this letter the inclusion of about 900 extremely profane and lewd verses (the Chritropakhian) into the dasam granth is mentioned. This letter is universally exposed as a complete forgery by pro natak touts who wish to weaken Sikhi from within. It is around 2000: The book is now being printed with the title: Shri Guru Dasam Granth. The book is now being elevated to being called a Guru of the Sikhs with demands for parallel parkash. It’s February, 2010: The Great Pretender sitting on the Akal Takht (“Throne Of God”) , appointed head priest Mr. Gurbachan Brar, moves to excommunicate Singh Sahib Professor Darshan Singh Ji from the Sikh faith for voicing concerns over the authenticity of the dasam granth. Professor Darshan Singh is one of the greatest scholars on the Guru Granth Sahib. This outrageous act by a poseur is designed to still all voices of opposition and install an idolatrous priestly caste completely prostituted to political power. The decision is made by self-styled priests acting in a secret conclave and in the absence of Professor Darshan Singh (who is at Sri Darbar Sahib at the time). This is the first time in Sikh History that an ex-communication has occurred in a secret hearing where the Sangat is not present and where the accused is not afforded the opportunity to defend his views.

^^^^^Paji i totally respect the sincerity of your viewpoint ... but pyaar naal I still honestly don't buy the theory that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj had to be born to the parents he was (in order to appease the fanatic Pandits upon highness of lineage issues) ... in essence, I genuinely believe these are fake stories appended on to distract us from the truth of what Guru Sahib's true message was. I genuinely believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj pretty much exposed that SuryaVanshi lineage is no higher than any other by way of the fact Guru Sahib ate with Bhai Lalo Ji as opposed to the man of "supposed" high lineage Malik Bhago. To me that closes the case :-) VJKK VJKF

UK = Totally agree with you kullyKhalsa Ji. What differentiates bewteen human beings is not our religion that we state we belong to but solely the actions we do in our lives, according to the individual set of circumstances we face. In that "examination test" of our lives, Sikhs like me might fail whereas another gareeb Muslim from a slum may pass etc, etc. Having said that, following the Amritdhari marg should (theoretically if adhered to truthfully) ensure an expedited route to coming closer to ParmAathma. In Sachkhand people don't follow religions ... "Tuhin Tu" ... so all worldly souls who were born into different faiths are sure to be represented ... but more importantly when merged with ParmAathma there are hardly likely to be differences within one merged Great Soul that is ParmAathma.