UKLondonSikh

No honestly Paji - not tongue-in-cheek at all (I thought that was your forte :-) I do realise that within our Panth many would consider this blasphemy. But I put it to you respectfully, in your heart, that should we even worry about the minor differences in address between what were traditionally defined as Bhagats and Guru's? I wholly accept that Kabir Ji Maharaj and Ravidas Ji Maharaj were Bhagats in the context of particular contrast to the line of spiritual succession which led to our present Guru. But with our present Guru containing more of the aforementioned "Bhagats" shloks than Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, for example, isn't this just an argument about semantics ... and therefore we really need to be a bit more pragmatic over mere terms of respectful address?

>> UKL = You're not wrong on most of the above Paji but I want to instigate debate on whether we need to change our dynamics with our "cousin" communities or do we remain mired in the definition of boundaries and divisions between us ... particularly with how DSB are clearly working to take the entire Ravidassia population outside of the Sikh community. In pragmatic terms, please suggest solutions that you see you can live with on this issue because it's clear to me that Indira + her cronies absolutely loved it when we restrict the definition of a "Sikh" to as small a population as possible ... whereas our clever opponents realise that the more you widen the net of the term "Hindu" the better off their Hindutva ideology is. The fact is that the 800million or so so-called Hindu's who live on less than 20 rupees a day are clearly our spiritual brothers and sisters regardless of what they actually believe today (because they have never read or heard of SGGS Ji)

N30 Paji i totally appreciate your point regarding not seeing everything as "black and white". I totally agree with that. But I don't have any belief in the concept of wearing jewellery as it actively conflicts with humility. I don't wear any jewellery for that reason I was educated about. But I'm not yet humble enough to be a Khalsa unlike others. However, the point made regarding the wearing of jewellery in an apparently humble way by normal folks for reasons to do with royalty doesn't stand up to scrutiny imho. Royalty itself is a very false concept. And Sikhi teaches us that those gareeb loki who wear the poorest clothes and live the most humble lives in material terms are the True Royalty ... whereas jokers like the various Royal Monarchs across the globe with the most glittering and expensive jewellery are invariably the lowest of the low. That's why there is debate about the representation of our Guru's being inaccurate on occasion pictorially.

See Paji it's all about emphasis. If we say the only Sikhs are those that adhere to conventional Rehit Maryada drafted in the last 100 years ... then the population of Sikhs according to that would clearly be a small minority even within Punjab. That's how the RSS want us to view things ... whereby they get stronger ... and we get weaker and smaller as a community. If we accept the longer historic version of what a general Sikh was (note not true GurSikh) ... then we widen the definition of Sikh to each and every person that has bowed before the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... that would mean Sikhs are a 95% majority in Punjab even today! It's all about emphasis Paji. We need to think outside of the box given the enemies we are dealing with.

I appreciate what you're saying Paji ... but I said it deliberately ... because we get tied up in the whole Bhagat/Guru/Satguru debate ... but Guru Nanak Dev Ji themselves made it clear how they viewed themselves in comparison to True Saints (though we obviously know the level of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's humility). To clarify, I fully believe in the line of GurGadi of our 10 Guru's before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj but I see no harm (nor blasphemy for that matter Jonny Paji) in saying Kabir Ji and Ravidas Ji were in fact Guru's. If we are gana be so kattar on mere words how we can ever bridge the gap (forced wide open by Indira) with our Kabirpanthi and Ravidassia brothers? If we bow down to the words of Kabir Ji and Ravidas Ji we de facto acknowledge their living contribution to our present Guru anyway. PS: Don't worry I'm not proposing we call all the Bhagats as Guru's overnight - just that I feel there are justified reasons not to worry about whether we as aam insaan some say Bhagat/Guru/Satguru for two of the Highest of the High

Given that this month marks the Shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj, the Janam Diwas of KabirJi Maharaj, the Shaheedi of Banda Singh Bahadur, the evil actions of Indira+Rajiv in 1984 ... not to forget to GurGadi of Guru Hargobind Ji ... i think we need to strongly keep in pespective how much focus we put on any individual shaheed related to 1984 this month or indeed for that matter the prominence placed on 1984 given that Sikhs have been on the receiving end of several Ghallughara's. For example, 28 years after the the 1947 Ghallughara nobody was really focussed on the 300,000 plus Sikhs killed in Pakistan or the fact that this represented the death of 1 in 8 Sikhs based on the Pakistan side of the border then (the equivalent of if 3.5million Sikhs were killed today). Similarly, 1984 was a vicious attack on our Panth and we should look on it as a war that hasn't stopped and one that we are currently still losing. Until there is 100% literacy in Punjab, until the male/female ratio is balanced in Punjab, until gareeb loki in Punjab don't have to convert to Christianity to access free healthcare, until the drugs and alcohol menace in Punjab is shut down, until jaath-paath is killed off as a concept once and for all ... we might as well realise that we don't have any ammunition to fight any liberation war with right now (so no real point in raising naaray for Khalistan). The Panth needs all the pro-Khalistan elements at the forefront of development work within the community first as a matter of priority before we even spend time thinking about separate stamps and separate currency etc. If we can address some of our own issues with utmost urgency there's no reason that in the very long term the whole of India could realise that Sikhi is a universal truth for the benefit of all. There's no reason if we can sort out the problems Indira has left our community with ... perhaps hundreds of millions of Indians could accept the truth of Ik Onkar and Sarbat da Bhalla as concepts that can create a society based upon religious guidance ensuring justice, equality and freedom from corruption.

... is being marked today and I think we as a Panth need to communicate knowledge of Kabir Ji’s shloks in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj to a greater degree first of all to members of our community but also the significant population of 40million plus Kabirpanthi’s and Julaha’s of India. Before Indira started splintering Sikhs and other allied communities apart many, many Kabirpathi's hept SGGS Ji in their homes. Since we bow down to SGGS Ji i don’t think we as Sikhs should have any worries about accepting the fact "Guru" Kabir Ji and "Guru" Ravidas are fitting terms of respectful address for the two "Bhagats" we hold most dear. This is particularly relevant because the ancestral leatherworking communities across India number 60million strong. Instead of us thinking of these populations that number 100million as a bunch of Hindu’s from UP we need to realise that they are natural Sikhs simply from a poorer non-Punjabi background. The other alternative is to follow the line of how Indira wished to split Sikhs. And in the last 28 years we’ve continued to allowed that to happen. Certain folks whose ancestors were Sikh have now begun to call themselves Ravidassia as opposed to Sikh. When the reality is that all true Sikhs have always been true Ravidassia’s in the true sense from the very beginning way before Indira started funding DSB. Sikhs are already a minority in Doaba (as odd as that might sound to us in the Diaspora where a majority of us have Doaba roots). If all the ancrestral leatherworking population of Malwa and Majha were to suddenly state in the next census of 2021 that they are Ravidassia as opposed to Sikh, it could well be the case that Sikhs would become a minority in Punjab by then. Now we can address this issue by building links with our Ravidassia and Kabirpanthi brothers and sisters in India and ensuring social justice for all historically disadvantaged communities within Punjab or we can continue to take the exclusionary approach of they do not comply with Maryada. Granted, it’s obvious that certain religious institutions do not maintain Maryada but nevertheless conflict and communalisation should be avoided as a result of that like happened in Vienna and Talhan. As far as us Diaspora Sikhs, we need to clamp down hard on those that discriminate and who are (frankly) happy to see bakhre bakhre Gurdware. Punjab vich saaray pind’ah vich koyee bakhre bakhre Gurdware ni honay chai’de thay saaray loki de ghar ik saanjay mohr thay hohnay chy’de ‘ah agar Panchayat wale Sikhi de bhallay vasthay bolan.

>>WLS Ji that truly is sad if multiple degree holders can't get jobs. But unemployment is a reality all over the world and I'm sure you agree that the poorer non-landholding Sikhs suffer from even greater degrees of unemployment. For your family folk, at least they have the potential of selling some land to start a business or perhaps emigrate to Canada, Australia or New Zealand in that order. Sadly, for others, even those options are not available as 90% of the historically oppressed sections of our Panth don't even gain matriculation certificates and well its common knowledge who owns most of the landholdings in Punjab. >>Whilst it's true that finding a job is not easy in Punjab, most Sikhs in Punjab do actually have jobs ... though I realise you were joking in statistical terms >>Could that perhaps have something to do with a rotten ideology called caste? Do you therefore now accept that anyone who proudly proclaims their caste can hardly be in line with Sikhi? >>Whilst reservation is a reality WLS, do you concede that in fact there are more landholding Sikhs in public sector jobs above peon level than those from "backward classes"? For example, it's well known that though there are reserved seats for MLA's and in the police ... everyone pretty much knows which section of the community Badal, Amrinder Singh, KPS Gill, KS Brar all hail from. >>I would say 99% of the blame lies with Indira+Rajiv historically, though the Badals and the main bureaucrats in India are hardly concerned at how Punjab should extricate itself from the hell Indira left behind ... such as a decimated industrial base ... which leaves the residual unemployment which causes so much problems. Naaray for Khalistan only ensure that MNC's choose Haryana over Punjab each and every time. >>Sadly now we ourselves have taken on Indira's anti-Sikh baton and use it against ourselves. >>From what I've read, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. But this is lower level bureacracy that senior Sikh politicians should be able to overcome if they persist. Not least because the BJP's Hindu votebase in Amritsar wants the resumption of more flights asap too. >>I have to say I agree that enemies of the Panth are engaged in sabotage of our interests like this. But if we stay in Chardi Kala, remember that the hugely successful Patels in India are comprised of even poorer agriculturalists who have diversified big time into business and professions (as interestingly have Arains) then we can find solutions to overcome our enemies. As Dal Singh said ... the faster agriculture is restricted to those with meaningful landholdings and we diversify away from agriculture (as our enemies do not wish to see us do) ... the greater economic progress we can make as a Qaum. Punjab is failing because Punjab is an enslaved state of a hostile dirty foreign power : The Indians. >>The thing is making out Dr Manmohan Singh to be the Chief Slavemaster of the Sikhs is rather weak as far as reality stands. >>WLS you do a dis-service to all individuals from a rural background who have made inroads into urban industry. But you reinforce the point, yet again, that castes or tribes which de facto restrict folks to a certain life outcome are a totally immoral concept utterly against the principles of Sikhi. The jaath-paath believing brigade are the ones most guilty of not daring to abandon their links to India+Pakistan as you well knpw. If they don't stick up for their caste-mad friends on side of the border, they inevitably do for the other. its a bit like recieving a lecture about Punjab from a Norwegian fisherman, i.e like a broken pencil.......i.e Pointless. There are also other issues such as crop rotation or yields to consider here. Where the money is etc. Right now, at this very moment, farmers in areas such as Gujarat are artificialy emulating the natural climate and soil of Punjab to grow things such as flowers and selling directly to western wholesalers. That business should be natural to Punjab. It isn't for no reason other than the fact that India has put other states at an advantage re; transport infrastructure, and Punjab at a distinct disadvantage. But you're up to your old tricks Dal Singh. You're a one trick pony. You say the problem is that the rural sikhs don't get educated. You get told that the rural sikhs do in fact get them themselves degrees, masters, double degrees and triple degrees but still can't find a job. And yet your conclusion is that the rural Sikh has a victim mentality. :omg: >>What's worrying WLS is that you genuinely seem to think that rural landholding Sikhs are worse off than the poorer sections of the community. It's very similar to how white Americans think because affirmative action benefits a few African Americans ... that suddenly they are doomed ones who are discriminated against the most. You seem to believe that hype that the RSS push that all of Punjab's doctors are poor Dalits who got 10% in their exams. Sikhs from a rural landholding background are enterprising people and economically they have greater collective economic power than even the urban classes, in Punjab they control both Congress and the SAD, they are not under-represented in the professions or universities or in employment and they comprise the majority of MP's, MLA's, Police etc plus they own 90% of Punjab's land (which does not come cheap). Sikhs never had a victim mentality in the face of the greatest adversities in the past. Now when the Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, the Head of the Army is a Sikh, the chief Economic Planner is a Sikh, the UN representative is a Sikh as are the majority of MLA's, MP's and Police in Punjab ... it's almost ludicrous to claim that Sikhs are simply oppressed slaves as you often like to proclaim. >>Rural landowning Sikhs do work in the private sector WLS. They comprise 33% of the Punjab populace, as do Dalits ... but guess which section of the community is most under-represented in the private sector? Clue ... 2% of them own land and they are historically non-urban. >>By your faulty logic WLS, you'd imply that white folk can't get a job in the UK due to the race relations act etc. Everyone has sympathy for poor farmers. Everyone has sympathy for your relatives. But to extrapolate things in such a skewed manner as to imply that it's only rural landowning Sikhs that have it hard in Punjab is really ridiculous. Nah, its all getting silly mate. If there's a discussion about the road system in Bombay I'll listen to what you have to say because you'll be in your element. Here, you're simply doing what you always do as a habit : Deflect blame from your beloved India and pin it on the 'evil pendu rural Sikh' , the architect of all that is wrong in Punjab......apparently. >>By painting Dal Singh as being solely against the evil caste-espousing section of rural Sikhs you do a great dis-service to his valid points and in the process lessen the impact of certain valid points you also made re aviation etc. Everyone knows that united we stand and divided we fall. So do you now openly accept that any naive chap who declares his caste openly with pride is playing right into the hands of "mother India" and her corrupt bureaucrats? They want you to see the whole thing as urban/rural landowning/rural non-landowning ... that way they play everyone off against each other ... and becuase we're asleep to their manipulation, we fall for it.

@proactive proactive wrote " West London Singh, I couldn't have put it better myself. Unfortunately people whose only claim to having any connection to rural Punjab is that they watched Putt Jattan De seem to think they know more than those who actually have family there and visit every year. I was watching NDTV this afternoon and they had a discussion about government subsidies." One Indian nonce had the nerve to say that free power shouldn't be provided to the rich Punjabi farmer! That numbnut thought that all Punjabi farmers are rich. DalSingh would add his own nugget to that fact by claiming that apart from being all rich the Punjabi farmers are also treating the lower castes like the Southern good ole boys used to treat the negros! Anyway that facts as you state are quite correct. The GOI treats the Punjab as a colony just as the British treated India as a colony which would provide the raw materials and then be a market for it's value added goods. GOI needs Punjab to remain an agricultural state which provide cheap foodstuffs to the rest of the country and which is then a market for goods which are produced outside of Punjab. Having looked at for example biscuits in the shops of even a small town, more than 60% are produced outside Punjab in states such as Gujarat and even Maharashtra. Why is in that the state that produces the raw materials yet value added products are produced outside? You make a valid point about Amritsar Airport. Why is it that there is now no direct flights to Amritsar. Even the Indian carrier Jet Airways stopped their direct flight and if you want to fly to Amritsar then you have to do so via Delhi Airport. This also entails a 10 hour wait for the connection from Delhi to Amritsar! If that's not discrimination against Punjab then I don't know what is.

The current culture and ethos of Panjab, in terms of every facet of life and not the kind of things Panjabi songs popularise, is so completely messed up from top to bottom. >>Ironically enough Paji, those wretched Punjabi songs and the wretched Punjabiyat they seek to pimp at the expense of Sikhi are a very dangerous contributory factor in the kind of under-achievement that DalSingh Paji brilliantly highlighted. If the youth are taught that getting drunk and having caste pride is the way to go ... what kind of room for disciplined adherence to Sikhi and academic achievement does that leave? The mindset of Panjabis is the biggest obstacle to any change that could occur. Analysis and identification of the problems would require a thread in itself, but suffice to say the emergence of a particular trait amongst our people - ruthlessness - is very worrying. You could argue it has originated from desperation for varying reasons, but inherently good people do not do the kind of things that are occuring back home. >>I think DalSingh Paji did an excellent job of providing a few markers But anyway I do wonder how change can occur. >>We can bring it Paji. Every Sikh youngster we know we have to reach out to them. Even if they think we are idiots, we should try to encourage them to work honestly, study hard, stay away from drugs and sharaab. If everyone who cares (which I know you do far more than me) does this, we are doing our best and change will occur. Look at where the Yadav community was in India in the Nehru-Gandhi era and where they stand now controlling UP with its 200 million population as a tenuous but nevertheless instructive example. The same could be said for what Kanshi Ram (whose parents were a Singh and Kaur) engineered politically from 1984 to the point of Mayawati being CM in the same state. >>Nothing is ever lost. We just need to fight harder. I have a strong feeling Sikhi must play a role, but not in the gung-ho manner some desire. >>Change will only come about via Sikhi ... obviously gung-ho tactics will not work when we are collectively facing such challenges. Before we start raising naaray for Khalistan, let's ensure that 100% of Sikhs are literate as a pre-cursor. First an individual must master their own mind and have a firm grip on their own life in order to affect change. However, self-reflection is an alien concept for them. >>The worse things get, the more folks will realise that the some of the paths we're travelling upon are suicidal.

But thanks for putting your point across Paji. Rabh Rakha

Paji the way for us youth to practically achieve Panthic Ekta ... is by focussing on those issues upon which there is unanimous agreement (rather than expending too much negative energy on those issues which we as brothers+sisters within ik Panth might disagree a bit on) ... a few that readily that spring to mind are: Gareeb'ah di Seva (regardless of their religion) Ensuring Education for all + at least basic knowledge of the spiritual precepts of Sikhi Tackling the drugs(+alcohol) menace in Punjab (note outside of Punjab this would come under gareeba di seva) Tackling Female Infanticide if we want to even call ourselves Sikh (let alone GurSikh) Eradicating Jaath-Paath-Biraderi etc as Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj wanted us to in 1699 If there's anybody who disagrees even with the above minimalistic Ekta platform then it would be interesting to know what they would delete from the above agenda and why (and how they would justify that according to what Maharaj teaches).

Sikhs are taught by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj not to have pride as such. Thus self-belief, self-realization and self-knowledge are the definition of true "pride" that the posters above refer to (please correct me if I'm wrong). The Qurbani'ah that the great Shaheeds gave especially prior to 200 years ago are very hard to get over to the youth that lack self-belief actually thinking that "they" as youth should have pride about those Qurbani'ah "per se" given that they are living in the 21st century far detached from the times when every Sikh literally was a true Singh or Singhni The key is that the youth understand why the Qurbani'ah were given (in terms of relating that to the 21st century) ... and furthermore understand that Sikhi is a revolutionary Truth which says all human beings are equal (and can only be distinguished by the goodness or lack thereof of their actions) and clearly such a philosophy implies that Sikhs cannot ever be inferior to anyone who ever tries to dominate us. The very fact that Sikhi teaches that the poor and downtrodden and oppressed are the worthiest of most respect ... should instill natural self-belief in a young person that Sikhi clearly is Truth and that there is nothing out there stronger than the Truth ... ie we have nothing to fear (except the righteousness of our actions relating to the level of seva we partake for our fellow human beings of whatever background). For example, Bhai Lalo Ji (as one example from many) is someone we can have "pride" in as a true Sikh ... whereas Duleep Singh was hardly someone to be proud of (regardless of the colonial reasons behind that) ... ie if we understand that of the two ... Bhai Lalo Ji was the true Maharaja ... then the percentage of our youth that lack loha in their bloodstream will halfway be getting there

Laykin Onlyfive Paji look at what they are saying ... ik paasay sevadar hohnay chy-dhay 'ah but a worrying percentage of these people want kursi of "Presidency" (to be fair not all Gurdwara Presidents are neech manmukh like myself) ... then they take out millions of loans for flash buildings completely contrary to Gurmat ... when education, seva for the gareeb and combatting problems within our Qaum should take precedent ... plus jaath-paath baqwaas + meat-sharaab halls vich ... Birji I know you yourself can't tolerate such things and this is why I believe you should perhaps play a role in supporting the main thrust of the agenda outlined above. Haii ke ni? :-)

Exactly ChuckSingh ... if agli generation ruldhee firdee'ah in terms of general education or knowledge of Sikhi ... what good are memorials that cost more ... but achieve less than textbooks or the combatting of the drugs menace or foeticide thru awareness

Devastating ... ParmAathma kare ke eh'dah de vaqhth saadi Qaum thay qadhi fare nah beethan. Obviously innocent children can't defend themselves but self-defence training and access to shaster (in the event of an emergency) are vital for us to prevent such tragedies in the future

In this day and age, a young man wanting to keep his Sikh identity in tact must be prepared to go through life without a community to call his own (unless you want to count the increasingly small and scattered population of keshdari Sikhs). To make such a decision, one must be prepared to let go of many worldly desires and truly travel a spiritual path. >>Paji deep thread. I have big respect 4u and the way u laid yourself bare on this. It's very very deep to know that u have remained a full Kesdhari brother despite the emotional pressures and conflicts you clearly faced in your heart+mind. I salute u Paji. I've resigned myself to the fact that that's just the way it is and the way it will be. I've made my choice and am prepared to live out my life under these circumstances. >>Paji "resignation" shouldn't really come into it. It ought to be joy. But I pray that ParmAathma will inject the positive spiritual sarbloh into your bloodstream. Just to open up to SikhSangat like u have shows that u have inner strength as Sikhi inspires. The question, however, for everyone here: is this satisfactory or acceptable for our quam? How many people can stand alone? >>The answer to that question Paji may well be seen from 1699. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that the number of true Amritdhari's (of whom I believe one day you will be one) is a far smaller minority within those bearing Kesdhari roop than our natural prem for Sikhi would lead us to think. Hence, less can be more if the quality of true Amritdhari's becomes higher than it is at present (on average). What good does it do our Panth when a worrying percentage of those bearing Kesdhari roop drink, smoke, espouse jaath paath etc etc. I really feel nowadays that our Qaum will be stronger if Kesdhari roop is only kept by those genuine in their Sikhi as a pre-cursor step to the ultimate goal of becoming Amritdhari. I really feel the drinkers, smokers, jaath-paath wale etc really need to at the very least remove their Dastar as they disgrace the truth of a pure GurSikh jeevan. Perhaps I will be ok and maybe you will all be ok as well. But what is going to happen to our community as a whole? >>Praavah you WILL be ok in your life. Never lack self-belief Paji. Ok! :-) >>Always know that each closed door ... only leads you to the correct wife for you in the end. By retaining your Sikhi saroop I believe your spiritual aura will attract a better dharampatni than perhaps would have otherwise been the case. It all sounds ok in theory: only the truly strong will remain, and perhaps that's how it should be. It will eliminate the weak. >>Exactly. The minority of weak Kesdhari Sikhs malign the perception of the true Amritdhari Khalsay, so in a way it's for the best. But let me ask all of you: are you prepared for the keshdari Singh to be reduced to a fringe figure you read about in books and see once in a while when you visit Harmandar Sahib? >>Paji we represent 0.4% of the global population collectively. Kesdhari's at best represent 0.1% of the human race and Amritdhari's represent 0.01% of the global population according to estimates. So our Panth is already not as influential as we would like to think. However, with a smaller number of dedicated Amritdhari GurSikhs and a greater number of sehajdhari brothers and sisters I can see Kesdhari & Amritdhari numbers growing ten-fold if the sachai is there in our jeevans for all to see (i should add that I am not Amritdhari yet and spiritually am perhaps a long way off from it) If not, can we try to do anything to prevent this? Should we? Or is this vaheguru's will? >>If Sikhi is thought of as a Majha and Malwa thing (given that Sikhs are in the minority in Doaba) then we will go nowhere. If Sikhi is taken to the whole world (with an acceptance that in the first instance we merely expect most new Sikh adherents to initially perhaps be at Sehajdhari level) ... trust me the future will be completely different from how you visualise. >> Rabh Rakha Paji - Chardi Kala vich roh - thay thussee deykhi jao ke ki hun'dhaii ParmAathma di mehr naal :-)

Too many to mention ... but if we are restricting to Sikhs of the 20th Century ... then in my eyes Bhai Puran Singh Ji ... would be one of the best examples we should strive to emulate to even a tiny fraction if we are capable ... if ParmAathma could bless us with such shakti and true Amritdhari value as Bhai Puran Singh Ji

VJKK VJKF Sardar Sahib. I'm sure the family history above is very interesting to students of history. However, one very instructive point about the Ramgarhia Misl history that is often overlooked ... is that around 90% of the Khalsa Warriors (who erased their caste upon Amrit) in the Ramgarhia Misl were in fact descended from sections of the community not engaged in the same noble profession as Bhai Lalo Ji ... essentially that erstwhile Jatts, Khatri's, Tanners, Ranghrete, Brahmins, Nai's etc, etc from a diverse range of backgrounds made up the bulk of the Ramgarhia Misl forces. What was unique about the Khalsa Sikhs was how they rejected the idiotic concept that the profession or tribe of a person's ancestors had any bearing upon a Khalsa's fitness for leadership. It would be nice if we the youth could at least strive to emulate that spirit by destroying the concept of jaath-paath completely ... with 1 United Gurdwara per locality for 1 Panth under 1 God

Dear Bhaiinoh/Paiyo, some wonderful pictures ... however, sorry to be a bad spoilsport but I wanted to express something that a certain number of our Panth strongly believe in. That is that, ICONOGRAPHY in the way Christians, Hindu's + Muslims are famous for ... IS, imho, a VERY DANGEROUS thing. Guru Sahib were explicitly clear that they forbade us to indulge in it. Furthermore, many Sikhs feel uncomfortable with images we are "fed" of our Guru's. The truest image we can form of our Guru's should surely come from their words and the records of their actions ... rather than what an individual artist's beautiful (yet imperfect) perception was. No picture can ever do justice to our Guru's. So why do artists attempt it? We should also remember that an incredibly high percentage of what can loosely be termed as Sikh iconography .... conveniently seemed to have often resided in the hands of Muslims whose ancestors were in some way connected to the Mughals + the families of Hindu Mahants ... We need to be very careful and ask ourselves if someone like Nelson Mandela would wish for his legacy to be preserved by keeping his shoes from the (random) year 1998? And if the answer to that question is no, he would much rather we educate ourselves about the evils of apartheid and racism instead of putting his shoes in a museum and marvelling at them ... then perhaps we need to apply that same thought process to those Highest of the High that contributed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

Sangat Jiyo please let's petition for this through our national Sikh Councils + the tv channels + facebook etc because I really believe we can get somewhere with this as 100% of the sangat on this forum wishes + prays for ekta amongst the Panth.

SikhSangat Forum memebers, it's been absolutely brilliant bouncing ideas and learning from people on this site the last few days. However, my short term flexi-job that enabled me to contribute as frequently this short while has now come to an end ... so I won't really have time to get invloved actively on here again any time soon I don't think ... so just wanted to wish everyone all the best, particularly the posters whose thoughts and dedication to Sikhi has been really inspiring to me. It's unfortunate that as decent as the Sangat on here are, bhangra stations can do more damage to our community than thousands of dedicated Sikhs on a discussion forum due to the greater reach a bhangra channel has. So please all UK-wale let's jointly target Davinder Bal (respectfully) on that front to ensure that our hope of one United Gurdwara can slowly edge towards becoming reality due to youth pressure. N30+Canayda/Amreeka wale you know who to target (+mentor) over there. Like Professor Harinder Singh of www.sikhri.com says ... everyone of us (on this forum) brings something to to the table in terms of the practical real life skill sets + actions that we can do to push Sikhi forward as a positive force that the world desperately needs and what we can manage to do as individuals in terms of seva (for all - regardless of their faith) ... you don't have to be an intellectual or a doctor or a rocket-scientist ... even if you just work honestly and give dasvandh to something that benefits our fellow human beings (rather than anything divisive) then it's all good but united, co-ordinated Sangat action is the key. Rabh Rabkha to everyone :-)

@simran ... don't believe the hype about "karma". In Sanskrit karma means our actions in THIS life. When the Muslims butchered the Sikhs ... our people did not suffer because of karma - they suffered due to the evil of the Mughals. Similarly in 1984, the anti-Sikh pogroms were brought on not by the bad karma of Sikhs ... but by the evil deeds of Indira+Rajiv ... so remember that we make our own luck within this life (subject to limitations outside of our control ... even if u don't manage to do sewa ... it's not because God doesn't want you to do it ... it's just what the lottery of life deals us). However, also know this, the person that struggles more in life due to health, gareebi + various unfortunate circumstances is closer to God as a result than the person who lives an identical jeevan but has great health, no money troubles + no family problems etc. For example, if me, you + some Tamil kid sit an exam about Punjabi history. If me, you + the Tamil kid score 80% ... then the Tamil kid deserves more credit given that he's not Punjabi. Similarly, God sees how hard everyone's "life exam" is and who are those closest to Rabh as a result. Rabh Rakha

To tell you the truth Mat Pulo Rai ji, even though i think fair enough let's be open-minded if other folks have living Guru's ... personally i genuinely believe that the overwhelming majority of these sants, sadhu's and baba's are just out and out frauds. However, conflict with folks who have a living Guru that leads to violence is simply not worth the price. What happened at Vienna is proof of that ... even though I have my own theory on that ... that renegade Congress operatives from UP committed that outrage in order to defame Sikhi + split off Ravidassia's as a separate dharm ... whilst milking the Punjabi Ravidassia pilgrims annually as they start to visit the UP Mandir in Begumpura instead of their local Gurdwara. One such Baba, who i feel is an honest man is Hardev Singh of the Nirankari's. He doesn't style himself as a living Guru, he seems humble and from what I've heard of the man he doesn't have an anti-Sikh message like Ram Rahim. It's true that his father was a pimp dog for Indira ... but I believe that Hardev's Singh Nirankari mission as they exist today doesn't perhaps deserve as much hatred as the Nirankari Baba of 1978 clearly deserved. I think we need to build bridges with those who are not orthodox in their practice ... provided the have the same wider aims of social justice and human equality as Sikhi in practice (as opposed to working as outright pimps for Congress or killing innocent unarmed Sikhs like Ashutosh or Ram Rahim)