UKLondonSikh

@ simran ... sorry to read that re your health not allowing u to perform seva as often as you'd like. the very fact that u want to do it will improve your health and are clearly someone committed to Sikhi will ensure your health improves. keep telling yourself that u will get better over time + genuinely you will see the results of that vishvaas in ParmAathma over time. Rabh rakha

@ simran ... keep doing your sewa Simran, first time somebody told me that they couldn't do sewa on account of being sehajdhari i couldn't believe it so trust me a lot of non-sehajdhari Sikhs are on your side of this position. Rabh Rakha

I don't disagree with a single thing in what you've said above Paji. I think my wider point, perhaps in contrast to yours, was that if there are less Khalsay of greater spiritual depth and doing greater sewa, that that is actually better for Sikhi than others perhaps becoming Amritdhari but partaking in activities not befitting a Khalsa (or even Kesdhari for that matter). Ie that if anything Kesdhari should should be an intermediate level for people who feel who are nearing the level of spiritual discipline required to be a Khalsa (rather than a startting point for someone's introduction to Sikhi). For myself personally, outward rehat has been relatively easy in my personal life but having true Khalsa qualities i know is a quantum leap (for myself at least). Also, as I see it, the Khalsa Fauj was urgently needed a decade or so back being in the forefront of halting the genocides in Rwanda and DR Congo. However, given that we couldn't even effectively defend our own Qaum betweeen particularly 1984-1995, i think we need to keep a very open mind in regards to who is on "our" side in terms of sehajdhari numbers (in spite of the their accepted levels of progression being initial stages as they acknowledge) and others not popularly regarded as being within mainstream Sikhi. To give you an idea of my liberal stance on the issue, I genuinely believe anyone who bows before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is a Sikh (learner) in the widest sense.

I'd like to echo what paneer monster said ... you are doing your sewa in your way ... please don't let anyone dissuade you from your heartfelt objective and your own pace of progressing in Sikhi ... All the best Paji

My knowledge is quite weak on deep spiritual matters Paji but as far as I understand Guru in its simple meaning of teacher (as opposed to ultimate Guru, VaheGuru ParmAatmaa) is something all humans have an individual right to respect however they feel is a Guru to them. However "sab Sikhan ko hukam Guru maneyo Granth" was the blessing given to us as Sikhs by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj direct (as opposed to being stated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj) and hence why we Sikhs do not need any living person in 2012 to be a Guru to us as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Maharaj Rabh Rakha

@ onlyfive + 11Gurus1Jot ... yep everyone knows what the sehajdhari are far more guilty of or likely to indulge in ... but given that there are 7 billion people in the world ... and for argument's sake, let's say there are 28million Sikhs ... of whom perhaps 7 million are Kesdhari ... and perhaps 0.7 million may have partaken Amrit and not subsequently become patit ... can we really afford to be as morally restrictive in 2012 ... if by discouraging sehajdhari's ... we inadvertently prevent or delay them from coming into the Khalsa fold quicker as a result ... as well as de facto restricting Sikhi to areas of current day Punjab where Kesdhari appearance has historically been most common? Even if all 28 million Sikhs did follow "outward" Rehat to the letter in all aspects ... surely, it goes without saying (based on reality that we have observed in our lives) that Sikhs as a Qaum would NOT be significantly better (pound-for-pound) than 6,972 million non-Sikhs in terms of how good our deeds+actions are before God's view? I've always been taught that in Sikhi our deeds + actions are much higher than "outward" Rehat. So if a non-Sikh donates one of his kidneys to a stranger needing a transplant ... oh insaan vi Khalsa Panth vichoh manay'ah jaa sak'dhaii in the wider sense of what Khalsa means and why Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gathered the Sangat at Vasakhi 1699. Particularly bearing in mind that Panj Pyaaray stood up out of say 50,000. Would you not feel more comfortable if say of the global Khalsa Panth only 1% of the 700,000 Khalsay were Punjabi given that we surely cannot realistically expect a majority of the world's population outside of Punjab to become Kesdhari, let alone become Amritdhari. Sachai + insaaniyat can obviously not be restricted on the basis of the geographic location of one's birth. Ie wouldn't everyone in the Panth (including those who are clearly not suited) becoming a Khalsa defeat the whole purpose of what Guru Sahib was introducing? If non-Sikhs were to initially become sehajdhari that wouldn't that be the best hope of Rehat truly being followed by a dedicated minority within the wider Qaum rather than so many turning patit in Punjab? I hope I don't offend either of you brothers with my post as I know in my heart that you both follow Sikhi to a much greater degree than I do ,as sadly I'm not yet spiritually advanced enough to be Amritdhari myself (for which i respect you unreservedly on that). Rabh Rakha

Shaheeds Beant Singh & Satwant Singh ought to be acknowledged as desh bhagats by India themself (on the same level as Bhagat Singh). They targetted the root of the problem (instead of innocent Hindu's). Unfortunately Congress never understood that + targetted innocent Sikhs (as they had always planned to do anyway). Part of the Congress agenda was to put an end to the "sava lakh" spirit amongst Sikhs Sadly given that the 84 victims haven't got justice yet, India clearly isn't ready to accept the truth of their greatness ... but I hope 1 day i hope all honest Indians will realise the truth + acclaim Beant Singh & Satwant Singh as great Shaheeds

Yep club culture is now pretty much unstoppable in the west for underlying commercial reasons ... but what we can do is campaign against bhangra records which promote alcohol and caste identity ... as a means of keeping things still slightly within the realms of not being actively detrimental to the Qaum. We can't insist on everyone being Kesdhari either as that further alienates decent sehajdhari folks from staying outside of the influence of drugs, alcohol etc. Rabh Rakha

100% agree with u sister

Exactly Paji, camcorders and mobile phones and subsequent youtube publicization could have a massive transformative affect in trying to get them to "protect+serve" instead of killing innocents or turning a blind eye to the drugs problem.

@ n30 ... 100% right Paji. Internet discussions have to be followed up with real life actions (if they are to ever have any point) and i know what you said about concentrating on message rather than messenger but ... ayda hi thussee Chardi Kala vich hamay'sha socho Qaum de bhallay vasthay! :-)

Paji, no disrespect, but let's ignore what they are about + focus on our solutions to our own problems ... maybe you can try to push the United Gurdwara movement in Canada if that's where you are based. Thanks (oh loki kush vi hohn, assi apne masle-ah baaray soch rakhiye ... and please don't anybody spend tourist dollars over in Pakistan ... when that money would be better spent in East Punjab to benefit Sikhs instead)

Thanks brother let's petition via your link on youtube and via UK Sikh Council + the tv channels + facebook etc because I really believe we can get somewhere with this as 100% of the sangat on this forum wishes + prays for ekta amongst the Panth. Rabh Rakha and keep doing what you are doing. Each individual "drop" in our Qaum can make a strong unstoppable collective "river" on this + other issues

@SikhWorldTv ... please can you share your ideas on how we can push towards making this a reality Paji

@ rebel .. i have a problem with ANY so-called Sikh that has a damn caste and proclaims it to me as if something to be proud of. Those people would be better off going back to Hinduism+Islam which are cool with the caste system. Sikhs are not cool with the caste system and never will be.

Bro, the fundamental point to remember is if any enemy attacks us because we are Sikhs, myself and you would stand shoulder to shoulder (despite our differences on individual issues) to fight them back. However, one point I strongly wanna make to you, respectfully, is that the murder of innocent Muslims on the East Punjab side was against the tenets of Sikhi (and something we cannot have any pride in). Killing innocents "to get them back" is not justifiable. Getting them back in its true sense would have been killing the murderers on the West Punjab side that killed so many hundreds of thousands of our people there. However, any Muslim males that attacked us on East Punjab side certainly got exactly what they deserved and as a whole all the Malwa, Majha and Doaba Muslims that voted for Pakistan, clearly had to go there so they could they could happily be part of an apartheid state (Pakistan). Also don't forget forget that if the Muslims lost 400,000 innocent lives (which we should never be proud about - instead we should be sad at how innocent people of all faiths suffered) out of a total population of theirs of say circa 100million that means they lost 0.4% of their community during Partitition. On a percentage basis we suffered at least more 12 times times more casualties than them on the basis of our community's population being far smaller. Peace

@rebelsingh Granted that Arain (Kamboh+Saini converts), Rajputs, Gujjars, Butts (Brahmin Muslims) etc also took part in the killings against Sikhs ... but how often do you hear people complain that Sikhs of a Saini, Kamboh, Gujjar, Brahmin, etc background have discriminated against them as fellow Sikhs? The answer is hardly ever. If you still can't make the link and put 2+2 together then I suggest you set up a counselling centre for the Hindu Jatts and Muslim Jatts whose feelings might have been hurt by what I posted :-)

LoL ... i don't need to apologise for something that i stand by. You're probably the only one who seriously thought I was insinuating you support Sajjan Kumar (as no Sikh does). If i respect Dr Manmohan Singh for his personal achievements, let me clarify that does not extrapolate into me supporting his party. I hate Congress but I recognise that there are Sikhs (such as him) that can work with a political party after Indira+Rajiv were rightfully killed without meaning those Sikhs are anti-Sikh themselves.

@ RebelSingh ... What you're forgetting to account for is how many Sikhs were in Pakistan in 1947 and how many were in India. So by a rough assumption that 50% of the 6 million lived on the Pakistan side (when in fact the percentage was lower than 50%) ... 300,000 of 3million means at least 10% of the Sikh population there were killed. There are studies to indicate that the percentage of Sikhs killed on the Pakistan side were actually far higher than even the arbitrary 10% i ascribed of the Sikh population there at the time, possibly as many as 1 in 5 Sikhs in Jinnah's Pakistan got slaughtered. The equivalent of if our enemies were to kill 5 million plus Sikhs today.