MrDoaba

This thread poses two problems as I see it, which have already been mentioned.

1) Some people will read this and use it as an excuse to promote or engage in recreational drug use and abuse.
2) Some people may think use of these substances is a requirement in Sikhi.

Neither are acceptable.

Then the two extremes, either the typical "drugs are bad, war on drugs!" or "drugs are allowed, shako ji shako!" - both are completely and utterly ignorant.

References to drugs in Gurbani refer to those who used them for spiritual purposes like some Sadhus and mastane faqirs still do today, who use them to achieve spiritual ecstasy or aid in meditation etc. OR it refers to those who used them recreationally, to enjoy and have a good time (which further has its own set of issues). Both examples are prohibited in Sikhi. The key lies in the distinction of intention.

Is it believable Sikhs in the past used afeem? Yes of course. I don't know why that's so surprising. They weren't using it recreationally i.e. to have a good time. Its application was practical and limited. Much in the way opiates (and other drugs which have intoxicating qualities) are used pharmaceutically today. Of course Ayurveda knew about this well before western medicine and it's not like Sikhs didn't apply Ayurvedic or natural remedies....unless you're under the illusion that every single Singh back in the day was a Mahapurkh and could tap into Shakti at will, didn't need to do any religious practise, and didn't need to use food, water, medicine like everyone else....and the "get high on Naam bro!" or "Gurbani is my medicine bro!" rhetoric.

Afeem and bukki (dodeh, poppy husk) are mainly used for their stimulating properties (or maybe a combination of relaxing-stimulation?). To increase focus and energy. It's been mentioned here that Singhs used it on long horseback journeys or for carrying heavy loads. To stay awake. It's also makes sense why scholars and the like would have used it too; compiling those hefty Granths is no easy feat.

If you look at its use today, it doesn't differ much; farmers, labourers, long haul drivers etc. The Chinese also seeked the more stimulating high rather than relaxing from it - look into accounts. I even remember seeing in a doco about the opioid crisis in America, some referring to certain medications over there as providing a "speedy" buzz (Oxycodone iirc).

The opium poppy has numerous compounds, not all produce the kick-back-and-chill effect. There's various factors that determine this though; cultivar/variety of plant, processing, dose etc.

I will say, one should really look into how it's used and why. Singhs didn't just have khulli chhuti to use what they wanted when they wanted. They still had rules and regulated it in their own way. They possessed the control to use it safely. There are those who didn't and you can see them for yourself today, not in good shape.

16 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Well, if you are saying that it is used to suppress sexual urges, I guess that isn't surprising given that it appears to be a very potent analgesic. 

I've heard different from faujis. Ask your fauji builder mates about this. Likely they'll tell you the opposite..that it's used as an aphrodisiac. It even comes as a proprietary preparation called 'Kamini Vidrawan Ras'. Obviously many of these lot simply use it for afeem's 'regular' effects.

But sure it probably can be used for supressing sexual desire, perhaps that's dose dependant.

However using it for that reason is a blag. The majority of Bihangam/Brahmachari haven't used, and, don't use afeem. The whole point of controlling this desire is to conquer the mind as a whole, to subdue the Panj Chor. Using a substance for that is a cop-out. @shastarSingh

We also know it's been used in other scenarios too: anti-diarrhoeal, analgesic, blood thinner (during heart attacks and strokes). All medicinal as are the above reasons.

The amount of stimulants apne use today; chaa every 15mins, coffee, knocking back cans of Red Bull they may as well take feem lol.

People don't wanna face reality these days, having an idealistic rose-tinted view of the past. And/or have filled their head with propaganda which makes them spaz out at the briefest mention of such things like feem or sukha. Little do they know they've probably already taken a drug derived from these two natural sources or will have to at some point in their lives, and with that I hope you too face the accusation of being an amli, anti-Gurmat and all the rest of the bakwaas that is spouted. Next time you feel tired or fatigued don't drink any caffeine or anything energy boosting, next time your kachhera needs changing because you have the sh!ts don't take Imodium or any anti-diarrhoeal medication (because most are opiate based), next time you have pain, refuse any opiate based painkiller. Hell why stop there, don't take any substance or medication which is even remotely mind-altering!

17 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Personally (and no one has to agree with me), I favour a legalisation non criminalisation approach to these things myself. I mean before goray turned up, there was no strict ban and enforcement at governmental levels of these plant based psychotropics in Panjab that I know of, and society seemed to have worked just fine, with self regulation.

For what it's worth, I myself agree with this approach.

Although everyone should heed this...Warning: Do not take any opiate based substances unnecessarily. They can be highly addictive and destructive if not used correctly, and if used for extended periods of time.

Gurbar Akaal!

7 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

@MrDoaba then what's difference between your practices or beliefs and that of Hinduism . 

If someone asks you, esp RSS how will u answer

Why do you insist on making this presumption: "you, yours, MrDoaba's"? - you're making out as if I'm some anomaly in this equation. I provided my explanation to you according to Sikhi. It's not my doing so why do you keep referring to it as such? If you still can't accept it, that's on you; I'm under no obligation to answer your questions when you can go and find the answer yourself, stop being so lazy. All your arguments are based on false premise (a very, very bad habit of yours). Are you unparh or something? No matter how much you keep ascribing these things to me, they're not gonna all of sudden become what you're positing. I've already told you, I'm sorry Sikhi isn't what you believe it to be. What do you want me to do about it??? The only rebuttal you make is "the RSS says similar things therefore you're wrong", and that too when evidence from a Sikh perspective has been provided. Blaming the RSS for literally everything which doesn't fit your views isn't in and of itself valid reasoning for your assertions.

First ask yourself, what is "Hinduism"? There isn't one single entity. If you read some Sakhis, an exegesis, and Gurbani itself you will see what I'm talking about. When Guru Sahib gave Updesh, there's often times more to it than simply a "Hindu". It speaks about sect or a particular system of thought people adhered to. The differences become apparent when one studies Sikhi intently and with dedication. It's not possible to answer a question like the one you're asking in short; SGGS has 1430 angs, and then there is DG...how do you expect to condense that down into simple bullet points? Sure you can answer trivial questions, like the ones people usually ask though. Why would I speak to the RSS about Sikhi? To who's benefit would that be? Trying to explain to them is like trying to convince an Evangelical Christian; they are narrow-minded, they have an agenda, they are hell-bent in their ways, and they don't truly seek answers. They're not asking real questions to get real answers...they've already made their hypothesis and ask questions to merely confirm that. An utter waste of time.

You've by the looks of it, made your sole Sikhi purpose about countering Hinduism. Although tbh, many people have made Sikhi into this single-point-agenda and they believe that is its main purpose too; that Gurmat is all about counteracting and refuting this collective non-entity known as Hinduism, and that we must prove that Sikhi has absolutely zero connection with this non-entity neither spiritually or culturally, or that we must prove how they're all wrong.

Repeatedly you've asked me what is the difference between "my" practises and beliefs, and Hinduism. Now I ask you, what is the difference between you and those Pandits who believed their Dharam was all about countering and refuting others? They made it their life mission to win the religious argument, prove others are wrong, to claim supremacy. In the process they forgot to practise their Dharam; they had all the gyaan but didn't put it into practise. Simply just retaining knowledge for a singlular purpose. This is what you do with regards to anything in Sanatan Mat.

You've been sold a watered-down version of Sikhi, which purports that spirituality is some narrow, inflexible path. Or in many cases has totally zapped the spirituality out of it altogether. This same Sikhi presents an alternative ithiaas at times. Some very deep conditioning indeed because now when issues like this thread come up, you can't handle it. Your immediate response is that something is awry and there's been a grave mistake...and you resort to accusations and loaded questions. All that happens is, you come off as dramatic and highly insecure.

Ask yourself truly, do you really think Sikhs are that stupid? That some of us are just willingly following some false version of Sikhi and ithiaas made up by those with a diabolical plan? Or do you think it's possible that it's in fact you who might be following something which has deviated from the original?

I heard a beautiful analogy recently in Katha: there are a variety of flowers (Sampradas and Sikhs) in the garden (Panth) of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but now we as a Panth try to cut down them down, we only want one type to remain (SGPC et al, missionary, Ik Granth Ik Panth etc). The flowers all bring a different beauty and scent to the garden but nonetheless they're still in Guru Sahibs garden. When the gardeners (reformists/revisionists) came in, they came to remove some weeds, which was good, it needed to be done. However, they were gardeners and not landscapists but landscaping is what they tried to do. They weren't trained in this and were overzealous. Now what we see is, the weed control methods they put in place are ruining the flowers themselves, mistakenly. Now there is such resistance (paranoia) to the original species, they try to remove them at first sight so as not to ruin one group of gardeners' idea (ideology) of what the garden should look like.

Dally put it best when he said "People have conjured up a protestant christianised 'Sikhism' " - really reflect on it Ajeet Sio...do you think there's at least the possiblity, just the slightest chance, that you might be an overzealous gardener? Because if you aren't even willing to ponder whether or not you might actually be wrong, and that not every single Sikh who follows traditional/Puratan Sikh is an RSS agent...then there isn't much left to say I'm afraid.

Stop going in circles dude, stop jumping to hysterical conclusions, and stop asking the same questions again and again the moment your idealised version of Sikhi is challenged. It's whimsical. You have absolutely no idea about nuance, perspective, context, interpretation, symbolism, or the arts and how these are expressed...the list goes on. It's almost as if...as if you've been putting karele up your jagsaw like some others here too.

Gurbar Akaal!

24 minutes ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

@MrDoaba if you don't believe in saraswati , why ur signature has 

ਜਿੱਥੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਧਰਮ...ਉੱਥੇ ਸਰਸ੍ਵਤੀ ਪਰਮ।

 Whom are you fooling exactly ? 

Sikhs should arm themselves with upanishads/vedas and purans to counter this growing threat . 

Jesus Christ, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A WORD WHICH IS ALSO USED IN HINDU MAT ALWAYS REFERS TO THE SAME THING YOU THINK IT DOES. IF YOU READ GURBANI, THERE ARE TONS OF EXAMPLES LIKE THIS BUT YOU DON'T DO ANY KHOJ SO YOU WOULDN'T KNOW. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT DOESN'T MEAN EVERONE ELSE IS.

HINDUISM DOESN'T HAVE A COPYRIGHT ON WORDS. GURBANI IS LITTERED WITH EXAMPLES OF SUCH WORDS.

Also w.t.f does "believe in" mean anyway? Just s.t.f.u for once and listen to what you're being told.

Here is an explanation, if you can't accept it, then it's honestly your problem and you should start attending Church:

Quote

ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥
Atha Devee Joo Kee Austata Kathanaan ॥
Now begins the description of the praise of the goddess:

ਭੁਜੰਗ ਪ੍ਰਯਾਤ ਛੰਦ ॥
Bhujang Prayaat Chhaand ॥

ਤੂਹੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਣੀ ਸਸਤ੍ਰਣੀ ਆਪ ਰੂਪਾ ॥ ਤੂਹੀ ਅੰਬਿਕਾ ਜੰਭ ਹੰਤੀ ਅਨੂਪਾ ॥
Toohee Asatarnee Sasatarnee Aapa Roopaa ॥ Toohee Aanbikaa Jaanbha Haantee Anoopaa ॥
O Goddess! Thou art Ambika, the wielder of arms weapons and also the destroyer of Jambhasura

ਤੂਹੀ ਅੰਬਿਕਾ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਤੋਤਲਾ ਹੈ ॥
Toohee Aanbikaa Seetlaa Totalaa Hai ॥
Thou art Ambika, Shitala etc.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਭੂਮਿ ਅਕਾਸ ਤੈਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੧॥
Prithavee Bhoomi Akaas Taihee Keeaa Hai ॥421॥
Thou art also the installed of the world, earth and sky.421.

ਤੁਹੀ ਮੁੰਡ ਮਰਦੀ ਕਪਰਦੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Muaanda Mardee Kapardee Bhavaanee ॥
Thou art Bhavani, the smasher of heads in the battlefield

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਜਾਲਪਾ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Kaalikaa Jaalapaa Raajadhaanee ॥
Thou art also Kalka, Jalpa and giver of the kingdom to gods

ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੁਹੀ ਈਸਵਰੀ ਹੈ ॥
Mahaa Joga Maaeiaa Tuhee Eeesavaree Hai ॥
Thou art the great Yogmaya and Parvati

ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਜ ਅਕਾਸ ਥੰਭੋ ਮਹੀ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੨॥
Tuhee Teja Akaas Thaanbho Mahee Hai ॥422॥
Thou art the Light of the sky and the support of the earth.422.

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਿਸਟਣੀ ਪੁਸਟਣੀ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
Tuhee Risattanee Pusttanee Joga Maaeiaa ॥
Thou art Yogmaya, the Sustainer of all

ਤੁਹੀ ਮੋਹ ਸੋ ਚਉਦਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
Tuhee Moha So Chaudahooaan Loka Chhaaeiaa ॥
All the fourteen worlds are illumined by Thy Light

ਤੁਹੀ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਹੰਤੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Suaanbha Naisuaanbha Haantee Bhavaanee ॥
Thou art Bhavani, the destroyer of Sumbh and Nisumbh

ਤੁਹੀ ਚਉਦਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪੨੩॥
Tuhee Chaudahooaan Loka Kee Joti Jaanee ॥423॥
Thou art the brilliance of the fourteen worlds.423.

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਿਸਟਣੀ ਪੁਸਟਣੀ ਸਸਤ੍ਰਣੀ ਹੈ ॥
Tuhee Risattanee Pusttanee Sasatarnee Hai ॥
Thou art the Sustainer of all and also the wielder of weapons

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਸਟਣੀ ਹਰਤਨੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਣੀ ਹੈ ॥
Tuhee Kasattanee Hartanee Asatarnee Hai ॥
Thou art the remover of the sufferings of all and also the wielder of arms

ਤੁਹੀ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਕ ਬਾਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Joga Maaeiaa Tuhee Baaka Baanee ॥
Thou art Yogmaya and power of speech

ਤੁਹੀ ਅੰਬਿਕਾ ਜੰਭਹਾ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ॥੪੨੪॥
Tuhee Aanbikaa Jaanbhahaa Raajadhaanee ॥424॥
O Goddess! Thou, as Ambika, art the destroyer of Jambhasura and the giver of the kingdom to gods.424.

ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਾ ਰਾਜਧਾਨੀ ॥
Mahaa Joga Maaeiaa Mahaa Raajadhaanee ॥
O great Yogmaya ! Thou art the eternal Bhavani in the past, present and future

ਭਵੀ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਭੂਤ ਭਬਿਅੰ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Bhavee Bhaavanee Bhoota Bhabiaan Bhavaanee ॥

ਚਰੀ ਆਚਰਣੀ ਖੇਚਰਣੀ ਭੂਪਣੀ ਹੈ ॥
Charee Aacharnee Khecharnee Bhoopnee Hai ॥
Thou art consciousness-incarnate, pervading as Sovereign in the sky

ਮਹਾ ਬਾਹਣੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਰੂਪਣੀ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੫॥
Mahaa Baahanee Aapanee Roopnee Hai ॥425॥
Thy vehicle is supreme and Thou art the revealer of all the sciences.425.

ਮਹਾ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਭੂਤਨੇਸਵਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Mahaa Bharivee Bhootanesavaree Bhavaanee ॥
Thou art the great Bhairavi, Bhuteshvari and Bhavani

ਭਵੀ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਭਬਿਯੰ ਕਾਲੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥
Bhavee Bhaavanee Bhabiyaan Kaalee Kripaanee ॥
Thou art Kali, the wielder of the sword in all the three tenses

ਜਯਾ ਆਜਯਾ ਹਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਹੈ ॥
Jayaa Aajayaa Hiaangulaa Piaangulaa Hai ॥
Thou art the conqueror of ll, residing on Hinglaj mountain

ਸਿਵਾ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਮੰਗਲਾ ਤੋਤਲਾ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੬॥
Sivaa Seetlaa Maangalaa Totalaa Hai ॥426॥
Thou art Shiva, Shitala and stammering Mangala.426.

ਤੁਹੀ ਅਛਰਾ ਪਛਰਾ ਬੁਧਿ ਬ੍ਰਿਧਿਆ ॥
Tuhee Achharaa Pachharaa Budhi Bridhiaa ॥

ਤੁਹੀ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਭੂਪਣੀ ਸੁਧ ਸਿਧਿਆ ॥
Tuhee Bharivee Bhoopnee Sudha Sidhiaa ॥
Thou art in the form of Syllable (Akshana), heavenly damsels, Buddha, Bhairavi, Sovereign and an adept

ਮਹਾ ਬਾਹਣੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਣੀ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
Mahaa Baahanee Asatarnee Sasatar Dhaaree ॥

ਤੁਹੀ ਤੀਰ ਤਰਵਾਰ ਕਾਤੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ॥੪੨੭॥
Tuhee Teera Tarvaara Kaatee Kattaaree ॥427॥
Thou hast a supreme vehile (i.e. lion), Thou art also in the form of an arrow, a a sword and a dagger.427.

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜਸੀ ਸਾਤਕੀ ਤਾਮਸੀ ਹੈ ॥
Tuhee Raajasee Saatakee Taamsee Hai ॥
Thou art Rajas, tamas and Sattva, the three modes of maya

ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਲਕਾ ਬ੍ਰਿਧਣੀ ਅਉ ਜੁਆ ਹੈ ॥
Tuhee Baalakaa Bridhanee Aau Juaa Hai ॥
Thou art the three ages of life i.e. childhood, youth and old age

ਤੁਹੀ ਦਾਨਵੀ ਦੇਵਣੀ ਜਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥
Tuhee Daanvee Devanee Jachhanee Hai ॥
Thou art demoness, goddess and Dakshini

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਿੰਨ੍ਰਣੀ ਮਛਣੀ ਕਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੮॥
Tuhee Kiaannranee Machhanee Kachhanee Hai ॥428॥
Thou art also Kinnar-woman, fish-girt and Kashyap-woman.428.

ਤੁਹੀ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਸੇਸਣੀ ਦਾਨੁ ਵੇਸਾ ॥
Tuhee Devate Sesanee Daanu Vesaa ॥
Thou art the power of gods and the vision of the demons

ਸਰਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਿਸਟਣੀ ਹੈ ਤੁਹੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਸਾ ॥
Sarhi Brisattanee Hai Tuhee Asatar Bhesaa ॥
Thou art the steel-striker and wielder of arms

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜ ਰਾਜੇਸਵਰੀ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਯਾ ॥
Tuhee Raaja Raajesavaree Joga Maayaa ॥
Thou art Rajrajeshwari and Yogmaya and

ਮਹਾ ਮੋਹ ਸੋ ਚਉਦਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਛਾਯਾ ॥੪੨੯॥
Mahaa Moha So Chaudahooaan Loka Chhaayaa ॥429॥
There is the prevalence of your maya in all the fourteen worlds.429.

ਤੁਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮੀ ਬੈਸਨਵੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Baraahamee Baisanvee Sree Bhavaanee ॥
Thou art the power the of Brahmani, Vaishnavi,

ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਸਵੀ ਈਸਵਰੀ ਕਾਰਤਿਕਿਆਨੀ ॥
Tuhee Baasavee Eeesavaree Kaaratikiaanee ॥
Bhavani, Basavi, Parvati and Kartikeya

ਤੁਹੀ ਅੰਬਿਕਾ ਦੁਸਟਹਾ ਮੁੰਡਮਾਲੀ ॥
Tuhee Aanbikaa Dusttahaa Muaandamaalee ॥
Thou art Ambika and the wearer of the necklace of skulls

ਤੁਹੀ ਕਸਟ ਹੰਤੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨੀ ॥੪੩੦॥
Tuhee Kasatta Haantee Kripaa Kai Kripaanee ॥430॥
O Goddess! Thou art the destroyer of the sufferings of all and also gracious towards all.430.

ਤੁਮੀ ਬਰਾਹਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹਿਰਨਾਛ ਮਾਰਿਯੋ ॥
Tumee Baraahanee Havai Hrinaachha Maariyo ॥
As the power of Brahm and as the lion.

ਹਰੰਨਾਕਸੰ ਸਿੰਘਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪਛਾਰਿਯੋ ॥
Haraannaakasaan Siaanghanee Havai Pachhaariyo ॥
Thou didst overthrow Hiranyakashipu

ਤੁਮੀ ਬਾਵਨੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਤਿਨੋ ਲੋਗ ਮਾਪੇ ॥
Tumee Baavanee Havai Tino Loga Maape ॥
Thou didst measure the three worlds as the power of Vaman.

ਤੁਮੀ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨੋ ਕੀਏ ਜਛ ਥਾਪੇ ॥੪੩੧॥
Tumee Dev Daano Keeee Jachha Thaape ॥431॥
Thou didst establish the gods, demons and Yakshas.431.

ਤੁਮੀ ਰਾਮ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਦਸਾਗ੍ਰੀਵ ਖੰਡਿਯੋ ॥
Tumee Raam Havai Kai Dasaagareeva Khaandiyo ॥
Thou didst kill Ravana as Ram

ਤੁਮੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੰਸ ਕੇਸੀ ਬਿਹੰਡਿਯੋ ॥
Tumee Krisan Havai Kaansa Kesee Bihaandiyo ॥
Thou didst kill the demon Keshi as Krishna

ਤੁਮੀ ਜਾਲਪਾ ਹੈ ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਘਾਯੋ ॥
Tumee Jaalapaa Hai Birhaalaachha Ghaayo ॥
Thou didst annihilate the demon Biraksha as Jalapa

ਤੁਮੀ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਦਾਨੋ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥੪੩੨॥
Tumee Suaanbha Naisuaanbha Daano Khpaayo ॥432॥
Thou didst destroy the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh.432.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
Doharaa ॥

ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਪਰਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
Daasa Jaan Kari Daasa Pari Keejai Kripaa Apaara ॥

ਆਪ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਨ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ॥੪੩੩॥
Aapa Haatha Dai Raakh Muhi Man Karma Bachan Bichaari ॥433॥
Considering me as Thy slave, be Gracious towards me and keep Thy hand over my head and protect me with Thy mind, action, speech and thought.433.

This is Devi Ju Ki Ustat from Sri Guru Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. As you can see Devi here in this context refers to the creative power of Akaal Purkh and Her (this power is female in literary terms) various qualities. Which is who Devi/Shakti is in Sikhi.

Now Guru Sahib and other Sikhs have used/will use these various names depending on the context to refer to a specific quality of Shakti as per Sikhi. In some Banis the names refer to the Sargun manifestations of Shakti - the Goddesses, and, sometimes not, as above. Many of these words have more than one arth which is something you are seriously slow at picking up - this why the Shakti of Akaal Purkh is referred to using the different names of the Goddesses in Gurbani; it's talking about a specific aspect.

Go and read the vyakhya for this pangti, you will see exactly what I mean:

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

In my case I have chosen Saraswati for my signature. Which refers to knowledge or gyaan. In case you don't know, it's a common Dharmik quote I have used. Also here is another example:

Quote

Sri Nanak Parkash begins with a list of invocations to God and to Saraswati who in a transcendent form is in the form of a pen. What one should understand is that this in not a invocation to the demi goddess in any was but that to the power of the Lord who is known though her many names such as Maya, Chandi, Kali, Chandka, etc.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
There is One God who is realised through the grace of the True Guru.

ਅਥ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਲਿਖਯਤੇ ।
Now the text of the Sri Nanak Parkash is being written

ਅਧਯਾਯ ਪਹਿਲਾ
The First Adhyai

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਏਕੁੰਕਾਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਤਿਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੋਇ । ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਫਤੇ ਵਿਘਨ ਵਿਨਾਸ਼ਨ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥
Couplet - The Guru is the form of the One Lord and through his grace does one realise the true form of God. God is continuously victorious and so are those who meditate on him also, for this reason God remove all obstacles and problems to enable this text from being completed.1.

ਕਬਿੱਤ ॥ ਤੀਨੋ ਲੋਕ ਬਰ ਦਾਨੀ ਤੀਨੋ ਜਾਚੈਂ ਮਹਾਰਾਨੀ ਤੀਨੋ ਤਾਪ ਹਾਨੀ ਆਦਿ ਤੀਨੋ ਗੁਨ ਮੰਡਿਕਾ ।
Kabit - O Saraswati (whose transcendent form is that of the pen) you are the one who is enabling me to write this enormous Granth. You are the one who gives knowledge in the three realms. The demons, the humans and the demi gods all are asking you for knowledge. You are the one who alleviates the three different types of pain and suffering. You are the one from the primal beginning who gives the three different virtues of Sato, Rajo and Tamo to the writers bringing them praise.

ਤੀਨੋ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਨੀ ਤੀਨੋ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੀ ਤਵ ਤੀਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਤਵਾਨੀ ਤੀਨੋ ਗਾਨੀ ਬਰ ਬੰਡਿਕਾ ।
You have been respected by the poets during the three phases of time. You are the three different types of power that bring about boons. You are the doer of the three duties of creation, sustenance and destruction. You are the one who has been praised by the poets in the three time periods as you are the granter of boons.

ਦੀਨੀ ਰਜਧਾਨੀ ਬੱਜ੍ਰ ਪਾਨੀ ਕੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਪਾਨੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਮੈਂ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਖਾਨੀ ਖਲ ਖੰਡਿਕਾ ।
You are the one who enables one to grasp a sword and the one who returned the rule over the demi gods and the heavens to Indar. You are the one who gives bliss to those who worship God and destroys others such as demons.

ਨਮੋ ਨਮੋ ਬਾਕ ਬਾਨੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਬਿਦਤਾਨੀ ਦਾਸ ਰਸਨਾ ਬਸਾਨੀ ਜੈਤਿ ਜੈਤਿ ਮਾਤ ਚੰਡਿਕਾ ॥੨॥
I pay my salutations to you again and again Saraswati who is present within each and every being. You are the one who resides on the tongue of the poet Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, may you be forever praised who is the motherly power within creation. 2.

Idk what your problem is. Honestly, if you have an issue accepting these aspects of Sikhi then maybe a different Mat might suit you better. I'm sorry Sikhi isn't what you believe it to be.

Also go and do your own khoj, if you did then maybe you would know a thing or two about Sikhi instead of drawing conclusions based on your pre-conceived notions, bias and sheer ignorance. There is just pure avidya in your words. You chat more bakwaas than an Indian auntie on meth.

The only person getting fooled here is you, because of your own ignorance lmao. There is no subversion of Sikhi, in fact the subversion is the other way around because it seeks to water down Sikhi into something it isn't, which is exactly what you're doing.

The same way you keep jumping to conclusions about me, I could do the same, e.g:

"Ajeet you have a problem with the word Saraswati because you have problems with anything female because you are gay"

Ajeet you have a problem with Saraswati because you have a problem with females, which is evident from because you treat your wife like sh!t"

But you see, I don't do that.

ਹੁਣ ਚੁੱਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਬਹਿ ਜਾ, ਸਾਲਾ ਕੁੱਤਿਆਂ ਵਾਂਗੂ ਭੌਂਕੀ ਜਾਂਦਾ

Gurbar Akaal!

6 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

YOU ALL are being duped by this MrDoaba guy. These ppl see patterns in everything, even where there is not.

Lmaoo, yes big bad MrDoaba is duping everyone here, because no one else on this forum has a Buddhi, none of them have any vivek - discernment. They've all had lobotomies.

You give me too much credit. In order to convince people on the level you accuse me of, you need kamaayee, which I do not have.

God forbid MrDoaba and the rest of the members here look into Ithiaas and Gurmat, and then decide to discuss it. Stop whinging seriously.

FYI it wasn't even me who posted pictures of any buildings or their ceilings. But obviously I don't disagree they also represent Surya; you'd have to be pretty dense to think it's "just a circle with lines radiating outwards" lmfao.

These things aren't just made up by me, they are spoken about by vidhvaans of the Panth some of whom predate us by 100+ years.

You are the very definition of paranoid.

Gurbar Akaal!

5 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

I am ok with all your mentioned mangalacharans .. except 

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

It's not my Manglacharan. If you have a problem take it up with Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj.

5 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

The prime difference between sikhi and hindu is "We DO NOT worship god in his sargun saroop" . We're nirguni upasaks, we're shabad guru pujaris , thats the main difference ! And if you're going to still believe in Ganesh, Saraswati , etc etc , then why not simply call yourself a HINDU ? why pretend you're a sikh ? I ask you then what is the difference between sikhi and so-called sanatan matt ???

Who said we don't? In order to do Nirgun Bhagti, you first have to go via the route of Sargun Bhagti. Do you even know who/what Sargun Parmatama is for Sikhs? It's Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj. When we do Seva of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is one example of Sargun Bhagti.

We very often say "Dhan Guru Nanak Tu Hii Nirankaar"...you should look into what this means. The Devi Devte are what Sanatan Mat believes are Sargun Saroops of Brahman, and while Sikhi does accept that they are avtaars* of Brahm, it does not accept that they are actually Nirankaar in Sargun form because in Sikhi that, as I have already said, is Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

* The concepts of Avtaar is not as simple as most people think; there is a hierarchy, and Guru Sahib is at the top. Please refer to Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's Japji Sahib teeka or Amir Bhandar teeka. I can't spoonfeed your ignorance.

If you think you can skip the Sargun route then good luck. You must've been born with Uchi Avastha.

Where did I say I still believe in Ganesh or Saraswati? You're the only one giving them the status of God lol. Just because you cannot understand these terms from a Sikh perspective, you jump to wild conclusions. You quote Dasam Guru Granth but selectively, these same terms are used in there and they don't just have one arth as you seem to think.

Every time you wanna point out the differences between Sikhi and Sanatan Mat because it fits your world view and confirmation bias of what you believe Sikhi to be. But you oh so conveniently gloss over where it overlaps, and then when it does, you cry "RSS RSS". Lmao.

5 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

ॐ doesn't  mean ਓਅੰ ( Oan) . It means 'Om' . Ask any hindu, anyone will say you its 'Om' , they believe in'Om' , not 'Oan' although I agree it might be referring to same thing . But sikh theology is deeper . 

ॐ doesn't have one arth in Hindu Mat. ਓਅੰ doesn't have one arth in Sikhi Sidhant. But some of the arths are exactly the same.

Om and Oan is the same thing. You live in India, I'm sure you're familiar with Devanagari script, and so please tell me what sound does the chandrabindu and anusvara make? Oh yeah it's a nasal sound which is internationally transliterated as "m" for Sanskrit, and tippi in Gurmukhi is transliterated as "n".

I already went over the vyakaran with you many months ago.

5 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

ਓ + ਨਮਃ does not mean ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ

stop lying . 'Onam' simply means 'Oan' , 'm' or 'n' sound is often added at end of indian words . For example 'karma' vs 'karman' . 

Read Dakhni oankar baani, you will come to know 'Onam' is simply 'Oan'

Are you finding it hard to digest lmao? That you can't even accept the words of Dr Sahib Singh who is a Tat Khalsa Sikh. I only used his teeka for your benefit; I don't personally care for it. Why do you get so triggered when there is some overlap between Sikhi Sidhant and Sanatan Mat? Did something happen to you once upon a time? You're gonna have a hard time in Sikhi if you cannot handle places where they cross paths.

The "m" and "n" you are referring to are added at the end of words when there's a nasalisation. Not a full consanant. Which represents an anusvara, chandrabindu, tippi, bindi. Or it refers to words that end in न् - the diacritic mark called a halant/virama - this is Sanskrit vyakaran not Gurmukhi.

Why would ਓਅੰ need to be written as ਓਨਮ ? Why isn't your definition just written as is?  ਓਅੰ doesn't have the consonant "n" or "m" sound in it so why is it written with full consonants in this instance? Why....it's because Onam refers to something else all together lol.

Why would Oan need to have both "n" and "m" sound erroneously written? That's not how Gurmukhi works. Are you stating that Guru Sahib doesn't know Gurmukhi rules?

Obviously you are having a hard time digesting this because you had to resort to saying I'm lying . IF YOU had read Dakhni Oankaar you would know what "Onam" refers to.

Oddly enough that is where that Shabad Arth I provided comes from lmaooo, and it's accepted Panth-wide. Do you even know the background (Uthanka) to this Bani because it seems like you don't. The Bani isn't even discussing "is it Om or Oan?" because they're the same thing. It's about the way Om/Oan was being used and its asli arth, which Guru Sahib did Uchaaran of because Om/Oan had become Karam Kand.

Anyway I'll make it easier for you:

^ Dr Sahib Singhs teeka - Vyakaran and Uthanka

^ Amir Bhandar Teeka, Uthanka - historical context of the Bani

^ GurShabad Ratankaar Mahankosh - Gurbani Dictionary

^ Generic search results for ਓਨਮ 

Is that enough evidence to refute your jhoote iljaam that I'm lying about Gurbani???? Or do you still think that you're Brahmgyani and only Sant Baba Ajeet Singh Ji has the correct arth and Brahmvidya????

Honestly, I'm not trying to prove Sikhi is part of Hinduism. I'm just providing what Sikhi actually is, and if it overlaps with Sanatan Mat that's not my fault lol. It's on you to accept that otherwise whatever you're practising isn't exactly Sikhi now is it?

If anything the one who's actually leaning towards Sanatan Mat is you, because for some reason the things you say sound more like Neo-Advaita i.e. the hardcore "Nirgun Upashak, Nirgun Upashak!". I agree eventually all Sikhs are supposed to become Nirgun Upashaks, but one does not begin there. How can you conceptualise and do dhyaan of The Unseen if you have no focus? Sikhi is the middle path.

Your claim about Sikhs being "Shabad Gyan Pujaris" is also as dangerous as the RSS mindset because strictly Gyaan Yog is rejected in Gurmat. Sikhi is the path of Prema Bhagti, which begins at the Sargun Saroop of Nirankaar which for the third time is Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji - Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There are countess examples of Sargun Bhagti in Sikhi.

So Ajeet Sio, you can continue to reject what doesn't fit your version/ideology of Sikhi and keep on believing and practising whatever you are already, but I assure you it's not Sikhi. Instead of trying to make Sikhi adapt to you, why don't you adapt to Sikhi? Soch la dhyaan naal.

Gurbar Akaal!

6 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

WHAT IS YOUR AGENDA FELLA ? 

You can write all the poetries you want, but why do you start with "ek onkar satgurprasad" . 

It is obviously to blur the lines between pakki baani and kachi baani , right ?

are you a RSS agent ? 

Gurbani is DIVINE REVELATION , and thats why it survives till this day after centuries, your poem is NOT gurbani and might not survive the storms of time. Stop this mockery !

Is this more of your sarcasm? Or are you just retarded?

You obviously have no idea how Mangals or invocations work. They were and still are used for all literary works, not just for Gurbani. Every single Sikh text we have starts with a Manglacharan and may contain several more within it. No one claims those works are Gurbani lol. Mangals have also traditionally been used when writing letters. It's nothing to do with kachi/pakki bani.

It's just a way of paying homage and due reverance. A nishani of Nimrata and Maharaaj Kirpa. And obviously, invoking.

Some short Manglacharans found in Gurbani:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਏ ਨਮਃ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

Some of these are also found outside of Gurbani, especially the first one.

Some found in other Sikh literary works, which would probably give you a heart attack:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਏ ਨਮਹ॥ - From one of Guru Sahibs favourite pieces of literature, Hanuman Natak.
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗਣੇਸਾਯ ਨਮਃ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਸ੍ਵਤੀਯਾਯ ਨਮਃ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਯ ॥ - from a Granth about Raag Vidya.

Hell look at this one line of a Mangal from Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Kabit Savaiye:

ਓਨਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਆਦੇਸੁ ।

Do you know what ਓਨਮ means? Here's a quote from an acceptable scholar in your terms, Dr Sahib Singh, for you:

ਪਾਠਸ਼ਾਲਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਾਂਧੇ ਲੋਕ ਮੁੰਡਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੜ੍ਹਾਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪੱਟੀ ਤੇ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ (ॐ नमः) 'ਓਅੰ ਨਮਹ' ਲਿਖ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ 'ਓਅੰ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ, ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ

ਓ + ਨਮਃ: = ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਹੈ।

Is Bhai Gurdaas Ji an RSS agent? Is Dr Sahib Singh an RSS agent?

You yourself knows this comes in Gurbani as well. But nah it's probably a conspiracy.

There are many which are far longer than this in, including but not limited to Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaaran, Bhai Nand Laal Ji's Bani, Sri Gurpratap Suraj Granth (the mangal from which you should definitely read lmao) etc etc. We have tons of literature and they all have Mangals, some short some long. And many which cannot be comprehended by people of your mindset - the one which are seemingly Sanatani in nature are to that aspect of Akaal Purkh specifically and they're older than you would wanna believe.

Your environment has made a few screws go loose in your head. What the hell are you still doing in Maharashtra or even India for that matter if you're so paranoid?

@eternalamar nice work, please add the Gurmukhi text to the poems as well, thanks.

Gurbar Akaal!

@FreshMind13 Iirc you had predicted this over a year ago. How come the decision only came now?

I'm surprised no one has said listen to Katha.

It's by far the best option which has several benefits, a few of which are: often times it uses complex vocabulary, it uses a polite manner of speaking, kathkaars tend to have excellent pronunciation because of proper santhiya, and last but not least you receive Dharmik gyaan.

Find some legit katha and a kathakaar who you like. Some can even be quite lighthearted and funny, like Sant Baba Hardev Singh Ji Lulo Wale.

Anyway, check out Gurmat Veechar.

30 minutes ago, Redoptics said:

Well they should get kicked in, then let them apologise,  then move on

There was ample oppurtunity for them to do this, to show some Nimrata. But they insist on relaying the message that they think they can act with impunity. They should stick to what they're good at, apologise for their past actions, and then stay out of certain areas of Sikhi.

Moving on would be the best thing for everybody. SYUK are the cause of this division, not anyone else and therefore they're responsible for mending relations and helping the Sangat move on.

I've already said though, they are practically a PR disaster. They couldn't just suck it up and accept galti ho gayi; the power is getting to their heads however. Look at their latest statement for example.

If and when they clear this up, they still need to be monitored by the Panth to see what kind of content they're releasing/promoting, and what exactly they're getting up to outside of tackling grooming.

Quote

We Stand for the TRUTH and we will protect the weak when attacked by bullies. We have no hatred to any person or community but we will stand for what is right.

No person or organisation is bigger than the sangat. Hundreds of people gathered tonight to oppose the actions of Deepa Singh of Sikh Youth UK. We have supported every Sikh organisation including SYUK. However we also have a duty to stand up to those who attack people who don’t agree with their views, attack and harass their own people at vaisakhi meleh because they think they look like “pakistanis” and make up lies to cause division in the Sikh Community.

Countless incidents have occurred for it to result in this, acting like thugs/bullies is not on whatsoever. The incident regarding Herman Singhs daughter is just one issue. Phone calls have been made to outer towns by SYUK sevadars which they failed to mention in their statement, this was to gather support which we have responded to by gathering and showing unity today. SYUK did not take responsibility for the actions of their youngsters on the coach nor was an apology ever given to Herman Singh’s Daughter. We are not here to send a message of violence but rather to make a stand against bullies. We acknowledge some of the good seva they have done and as mentioned we have publicly supported them on many occasions but this by all means does not give them a licence to do whatever they like.

Today the sangat have spoken and stood up, many who have been victims of these people, we must always stick by the truth. This has never been about being against an organisation but simply against thuggish and bully boy behaviour which we will not tolerate.

We will continue to stand for the weak and vulnerable, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Words of Shere Panjab. Spot on tbh. Lotta truth. No one is against the Seva they do.

@Redoptics I believe they beat up an elderly member of Nishkaam Seva Jatha.

When Sikh Youth Birmingham later to become Sikh Youth UK first came on the scene, it was all good, no issues. Finally more were doing something about the grooming issue, by whatever means necessary. It remained this way for a good while. As mentioned by @MisterrSingh it was only soft, liberal airy-fairy types who had an issue (still do, always will); the majority of the community did not. The same majority didn't have an issue with how they viewed a certain other community as a whole either. Everyone was fine with a sort of 'don't ask, don't tell' policy.

Just to make clear I myself have had no issue with any of their grooming-tackling solutions and any associated activities. It's both good sense and common sense to have a 'brawn wing' if you will, as long as they're lowkey and stick to what they're good at. I still support this wholeheartedly.

The issues which have now arisen are unrelated to their fight against grooming. Again to even to have a group which 'doesn't temper their strength with spirituality' is absolutely fine. But when this group themselves start to veer into prachaar too deeply, both Ithiaasik and Adhyaatmik especially that which is flawed, that's when it becomes an issue. And when a group like this begins to emerge as one of the leaders in the prachaar field for impressionable youth (and adults), people who are now behaving completely irresponsibly towards their own, that's when it becomes a serious concern. Now, as we have seen they are trying to police people [Sikhs], to control them [Sikhs], interfere in their [Sikhs] lives, harass/threaten individuals [Sikhs], and promote their (toxic) ideology which has come about as a result of the khulli chhutti they think they have.

One of the recurring themes of Gurbani is Sadh Sangat and another is ignorance/avidya. If the effect they're having on Sangat is rooted in ignorance/avidya then this problem will fester and will be yet another issue that has to be dealt with in the coming years. It's not forward thinking at all.

SYUK shouldn't be completely autonomous; an organisation like this needs to answer to, or at least be linked to, an org who have their heads screwed on and are forward-thinking, long sighted, and most importantly in tune with Gurmat. Look at the SAS, they are equally if not better at the job than SYUK because they stick to their job; they don't try and do the above type prachaar and policing. They create awareness and spread knowledge, stick to strongly to Sikhi ethics and values without getting embroiled in this ridiculous controversey.

47 minutes ago, Redoptics said:

Interesting there is sun emblem on the shield 

This was a common motif/symbol in Sikhi and is still utilised by the Dal Panth. The Surya or Suraj is a reference to the dynasty (Suryavanshi) which Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and therefore the Khalsa Panth belongs to as mentioned in Bachittar Natak and other texts.

ਜਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਛਕਤ ਯਹਿ, ਰਹਤ ਨ ਪਿਛਲੀ ਜਾਤਿ ।

On that day when you take Amrit [Khandey Di Pahul], the commandment is that you do not have a previous Caste.

ਜ੍ਯੋਂ ਭ੍ਰਿੰਗੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੀਟ ਤੈ, ਤ੍ਯੋਂ ਸਿਖ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ॥੨੪॥

In the same way a Bhringi, which transforms a [low] insect into a beautiful butterfly, a Sikh turns [beautiful] and adopts the Gurus Caste.

ਸੂਰਜ ਬੰਸੀ ਦਸਮ ਗੁਰੁ, ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ।

The Tenth Guru is from the Suraj Bans (Surya Vansh Lineage), the famous Kshatriya caste.

ਯਾਹੀਂ ਤੇ ਸਭਿ ਖਾਲਸਾ, ਛੱਤ੍ਰੀ ਬਰਣ ਅਬਿੱਧ ॥੨੫॥

In this way all the Khalsa turn into one of Kshastriya.

[Naveen Panth Prakash, pg. 1581, Vol. 3]

^ a Surajmukhi emblem being carried with Guru Sahibs entourage.

^ The same emblem being used by the Nihangs today

^ On the hilt of a Sikh Shastar

^ A battle standard from the Sikh Empire with a Surya

^ Surya logo

Gurbar Akaal!

Some thoughts:

• It's their word against his [Herman Singh].
• They are showing disrespect to Herman Singh by deliberately calling him by his first name - this speaks to sincerity.
• SYUK themselves have done plenty to create divisions in the 'Panthic Sikh Community'.
• They don't always act in accordance to Sikh princples - something which has been highlighted in incidents prior to this.
• They haven't explicitly denied calling the police on Herman Singh.
• Who are these Panj Singh - not doubting the concept of Panj Singh itself, rather how legitimate this claim is and by what procedure it took place if true.
• Does Deepa Singh need to be told not to get into conflict with his brothers? SYUK have violated this tenet several times already. God forbid they knew this before supposedly being told.
• There is no such thing as 'Sri Akal Takht Sahib Maryada' - it's SGPC Maryada which is something they (and a lot of people) speak against but then apply when it suits them.
• They're pointing out the fact they've done Seva - no one has denied this but as previously mentioned, it doesn't give them carte blanche in regard to behaviour.
• They have made many mistakes according to Gurmat and are trying to wiggle out it - they're not only answerable to SGGSJ, the Panth also has a say. They themselves just claimed Panj Singh gave Hukam but according to their line of thinking, an apology alone will suffice for their misdeeds - double standards.
• They're saying he nor SYUK can be held responsible for their own members. This is unaccpetable.
• They should have responded to this whole situation ASAP, not a couple of hours before. This doesn't matter though because of their lack of sincerity and respect. It's clear they don't take the concerns of the Sikh community seriously.

Personally I think they're just trying to play the humble victim but their false piety, arrogance, and dishonest nature is obvious.

It didn't take long to pick apart their nonsense 'official statement'. I urge everyone to analyse anything and everything that they churn out or support. They spread a lot of misinformation, ignorance, and promote the same under the guise of Gurmat. Soon enough, people who have been affected by their toxic, cultish ideology will start appearing, it's already happening.

Gurbar Akaal!

6 hours ago, proactive said:

The majority of Hindu societies are affiliated with the National Hindu Students Forum which is a RSS front. So what  is a  Sikh doing organising an interfaith programme with the Hindu society at his uni with a body that does not even recognise his religion and considers Sikhs as Hindus. 

That's a poor argument. Nonetheless, some points and questions to consider:

• It could well have been an honest mistake, did it occur that he may not have known about this supposed RSS link
• Many people believe misconceptions about Sikhi, that doesn't mean we cease to interact with them? If we did there wouldn't be many people to interact with lol. How else do you expect to do prachaar?
• Was threatening him a way to resolve this issue?
• Was this the point of the programme, to discuss if Sikhs are Hindus?
• Why did they feel they needed to interfere in this matter? What was the need to police?
• Regardless of whether the programme should not have been organised why did they feel they needed to take action in the way they did?
• Did this guy break some rule that I've missed?

I'm not against SYUK, I already said they do good work, especially on the grooming front. But there are definitely some questionable things about them. One of which is behaving like Sharia Police and ruffians, alternating between the two when it suits them; doing seva does not give one carte blanche in terms of behaviour.

When there's someone who does seva of the qaum but makes a mistake in their personal life, which doesn't affect anyone, people are all over that ready to tear them down. Which is bullsh!t.

When there's someone who does seva of the qaum but interferes in the personal lives of others and act like lafange within the qaum, which affects many, people are expected to stay quiet. Which is also bullsh!t.

Gurbar Akaal!

5 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

I remember when Bhai Mohan Singh went around Mandirs doing anti-grooming talks, SYUK criticized him and called him Pandit Awareness Society, they seem to forget Sikh history is full of instances where we have helped women and girls who weren't Sikh, how times have changed.

What?! That is just sad. But I'm not surprised tbh. It's what I meant above, they try to police others and push their version of Sikhi. Didn't they recently threaten some kid who did an interfaith programme with the Hindu society at his uni?

It's like:

were gangsters > hear about 84 > become Singhs > think Khalistan movement is good replacement for being gangster

Except 1984 and Khalistan = anti-anything that doesn't fit their interpretation of Sikhi; they see it from their thug life lens where there has to constantly be a villian in your sights, like "we're in this gang, can't associate with that gang, better check our gang loyalty". Pretty childish mentality. How much have these guys actually looked into Gurbani and Ithiaas? Seems like very little.

Bhai Mohan Singh has done far more than these lot, for far longer, with real Sikhi ideals. If that makes him a Pandit then so be it. I highly doubt he personally gives a sh!t, however, if they were involved in trying to defame or slander him to others then shame on them.

I think these guys do some good work, however them thinking it's wise to both tackle domestic issues and get involved in political activism is riduclous. They're a small organisation who lack the resources to focus on both issues, and, lack some of the professionalism required to be in the public eye; hearing some of them speak publicly is cringe honestly. Of course they can voice their opinions on politcal matters but any more than that is pointless. Either way, I don't support their politics. I mean even if one could be convinced of this Khalistan business it's hardly gonna come by way of some Chani Nattan types lol.

Now all these incidents are building up of them being lafange, trying to police people, to intimidate people, forcing their version of Sikhi onto people etc. Combine this with the open display of thug life...it makes for a very unattractive and volatile picture.

When they first starting getting popular, I thought to myself "why didn't they just join Bhai Mohan Singh and the SAS, stronger together, formidable?". I thought this until recently but then realised it was probably for the best they didn't.

And yes, whatever did happen to that centre they wanted to open?

Gurbar Akaal!

7 hours ago, GavinSingh said:

Yes i pretty much have taken my understanding of the charitar from one translation, which is clumsy on behalf BUT i have watched content and read plenty of articles on both side of the argument and translations aside they talk of the same issues.

How many of those people producing that content have undertaken proper Vidya? Do you know what their credentials are? Education in Sikhi comes in stages; there is a curriculum which has syllabi. We don't just jump into a text which is advanced because, well, it is beyond our comprehension. If you were an ESOL student would you attempt a PhD in English Literature? The answer is no. This is exactly what the critics do though.

Quote

"the stories are totally pornographic in detail"

How can you expect to understand such an esoteric work when you're thinking on such a low level?

7 hours ago, GavinSingh said:

I have started to read them all bit by bit and so far about 80% have put the dangers/ deceptiveness in the woman.

That's because you have already filled yourself with bias through those videos and articles. They have coloured your understanding of Charitopakhyan. You obviously know English which means you went to school and so must have analysed books and poems...you know that it's not a straightforward task and rarely black and white (pretty sure you had lightbulb moments, no?). If I told you what I assumed a particular poem was about beforehand, you would read it as such. Now imagine if I had no qualifications to be providing you with an analysis but I still did, your opinions and assumptions would be badly flawed. Pre-conceived notions are never good.

You've been reading it with a singular (false) viewpoint without a grasp on the original text or its language.

7 hours ago, GavinSingh said:

Now if this the reason - Guru Gobind Singh ji in all his glory, wisdom and spiritual grace decides to put pen to paper and write these stories. He would surely understand that the reader might perceive them as how they were intended to see women as tricksters/deceivers. This simple reasoning, in my eyes makes it totally unimaginable that GGSJ would decide to translate these stories, and dedicate 1/3 of a granth to it, even if it was as a side project, it makes little sense especially as the learning gained from these stories is minuscule in comparison to the GGS.  

It isn't the reason lol. You are just reading it like that: clearly without any foundational studies whatsoever. If you go back to my first paragraph you'll eventually realise what I'm saying is that Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji isn't for just any tom, d!ck, and harry; ones needs a certain avastha to fathom its content. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji knows all which is why they refused a request to merge their Granth with Sri Adi Granth Sahib (later Satguru), but yet still gave Gurgaddi to SDGSJ:

ਸੁਣੋ ਭਾਈ ਸਿਖੋ । ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੋ । ਦਸੇ ਮਹਲ ਇਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।
Listen Sikh Brothers! Recognize Baba Nanak as a true Saint, this is truth. In the ten forms [10 Guru's], recognize Baba Nanak in all of them.

ਦਸਵਾਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਗੱਦੀ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਹੈ ਗਿਆ ।
The Tenth King has given the Guruship to the Granth Sahib.

ਬਿਨਾਂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੇ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈਨਿ ਦੁਇ ਸਕੇ ਭਾਈ ।
Without the Granth there is nothing else, the Granth Sahib has its form in two brothers.

ਇਕ ਹੈ ਵਡਾ ਇਕ ਛੋਟਾ ਕਹਾਈ ।੨੬੫।
[Recognize] One as larger [brother, which is Adi Granth] and one as smaller [brother, Dasam Granth].

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸੋਲ੍ਹਾ ਸੈ ਅਠਵੰਜਾ ਸੇ ਗਏ । ਤਬ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਲਏ ।
In 1658 Bikrami the Adi Granth took birth [was created].

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਧਾਰਾ ।
In the house of Guru Arjan Dev Ji the Granth Sahib took its birth.

ਦਾਇਆ ਸੀ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਖਿਡਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ।੨੬੬।
Bhai Gurdas, with the blessings [of Guru Arjan], was the scribe.

ਛੋਟਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ, ਜਨਮੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ।
The smaller [brother] Granth, took birth in the Tenth King's house.

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ-ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ ।
In 1755 Bikrami [it was born], [Guru Ji wrote it] under many names [Das Gobind, Syaam, Ram, Kaal etc].

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ । ਹੱਥੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਖਿਡਾਇਆ ।
[Guru Gobind Singh] Sahib had much love for this scripture, He himself hand wrote it.

ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੁ, ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ ।੨੬੭।
Sikhs did a plea [towards Guru Gobind Singh] to merge Adi Granth with Dasam Granth.

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।"
[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Granth] is my play."

ਨਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੇ ਭੇਦ ।
The wonderous beloved Guru Gobind Singh did not merge them together, who can understand this secret of Guru Sahib? [of why they were kept separate]

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ ।
So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers.

ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਟਕੇ-ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪੋਤ੍ਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।੨੬੮।
The larger [Adi Granth] received the Tika [Guruship], the smaller gutka-pothian recognize them as sons and grandson.

Bansavalinama, 1769

You say that the learning from Charitropakhyan is miniscule compared to SGGS so I'm assuming you have done Santhiya including grammar anaylsis (Vyakaran), etymology analysis (Nirukta), learned the historical contexts (Uthanka) of all Gurbani and the associated sakhis (Ithiaas), learned the complete process of doing arth, and on top of all this truly understood the message of Gurbani?

But hell even without all this, if you actually put some effort into understanding Adi Bani, you would realise that so many of the messages contained within it are elaborated upon in Dasam Bani including Charitropakhyan.

I shouldn't have to mentioned this but I'm sure you know what Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahankaar is - we can all say "ohh yeahh I know all about these, I know we should fight them!" but this presumes that you have life figured out and don't need examples to put things in context for you. However, this is the "glory, wisdom, and spiritual grace" of Satguru; They know how our buddhi works, they know what moorakhs we are, and they know what manukhi jeevan entails; they know that this is Kalyug, and hence have provided wisdom in a format which pertains to real life.

I can easily provide you with a list of rules that says don't do this or that, and I can even provide you with reasoning for each of those rules which is how Maryada is formed. But Guru Sahib knows that in order to apply these practically, such matters need supplementary material. The human race hasn't gotten this far just by merely following some rules; it's gotten this far because of people who were ignorant of those rules/broke those rules and what transpired as a result i.e. examples, lessons learned. This is how we've become intellectually deveoloped. This is how law is created, this is how medical research has lead to discoveries to name a couple.

Remember, Sikhs are supposed to stay in Sadh Sangat, stay away from certain situations. Guru Sahib is giving us all this Gyaan as a preventative measure because we will undoubtedly find ourselves in these types of situations - and - so we understand the human condition lest we wish to become entangled in Kalyug even if we follow the rules. Maharaaj doesn't want us to go out, get ill and then take medicine (even though many do this), they want us to take the vaccine - and this is what Uche Suche Gursikhs do, this is how pure-beings guard themselves against adharam and avidya....their jeevan doesn't involve them always going out, getting burned and then saying "Oh I learned that the hard way".

Now lets say for example that someone grew up in a good sheltered environment, with a good family, and with good strict morals and values, in a nice community. Now this person is an adult, he has no one around him, no family or friends and has to go out into the big scary world. Remember he was a good kid, stuck to the rules, never did anything bad, it didn't even cross his mind, none of these topics ever came up, no examples, no stories or lessons. He just followed the rules because he had to. How on earth would he know of the sorts of things in Charitropakhyan (which are not only sexual)? He's never heard them before or how they play out in real life. He has no examples of this. No way to relate. How will he guard himself and be smart? How will he even know he's being played in some way? How will he know what to look out for? Oh yeah, Satguru!

If Guru Sahib can't talk to us about these matters then who can?!! Who are we supposed to turn to?!! Guru Sahib imparts spiritual wisdom and worldly. Dhan Kalgidhar Swami!

If we take a look outside of Sikhi you would see the same sort of thing. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishan Bhagwan imparts many deep spiritual concepts and teachings to Arjuna; many of these aren't unlike the messages within Gurbani. In order to understand these teachings further and with context one must look at Mahabharat, which contains morals and examples. If one looked at Mahabharat and skipped the Gita (the spiritual foundation), it would be a useless endeavour - which is what you seem to be doing.

Krishan Bhagwan also says those who find faults with the teachings, are lacking in knowledge and have no sense of discrimination/discernment (between pure and the impure, the righteous and the unrighteous, Guru and Sikh), thus they disregard teachings and bring about their own ruin. They have no sharda, and due to ahankaar, kaam, krodh, whatever the intellect cannot comprehend at present, it often rejects as incorrect. They are lacking in Nimrata and trust in the Guru.

The same is echoed in Sikhi; there are countless Shabads that refer to the above as well as what one gains from the Guru's teachings and wisdom. You should look it up.

7 hours ago, GavinSingh said:

All stories have some learning but that isn't my argument,  I am trying to discuss if the author of the Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

That's a fallacious argument. You can't verify authorship without examining the content (which you are blatantly not ready for) and/or looking at historical references (which I have provided).

If you enrolled in a traditional Sikh centre of learning, a Vidyala, you would have the answers to your questions. There is need for a teacher, an Ustaad/Gurdev to walk you through everything and to frame everything for you correctly.

And before you drag Baba's and Mahapurkhs into this, you should go and look at their educational record.

Nothing is gained by casting doubt on Guru Sahib. It's your own ignorance and inability to understand that is leading you to these conclusions.

Quote

when you can't even read a large portion of those stories to your daughter or son whats the point

That's because that's not how one learns this. It isn't for kids to begin with lol. Do your parents teach advanced sociology or moral philosophy classes at your house for you? I think not.

Even still, I could argue that Guru Sahib is our father

Gurbani has no inherent restrictions regarding who has access to it (caste, gender etc), it's for everyone, but the manner and circumstances in which it is transmitted and communicated has limitations and regulations.

I'm at a loss...first people say "where does it say that", then they say "why does it say that and what's the reason" - You provide the reasoning but now the problem is there's too much detail for their sensitivities! Lmao!

Having said all this, some people just simply have too strong a Victorian/Christian attitude to anything even remotely sexual in nature...."God forbid ess eee exx is mentioned in our religion, blimey!". It's pointless for these people to approach anything of this sort until they have shed this mindset.

Maharaaj Samatt Bakshan

Gurbar Akaal!

20 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Frankly speaking, what makes you stand out from the crowd if you dress like Draupadi ? We all know how quick it was for her to be unable to fight because her covering was being ripped from her body. A sikh woman should be able to be identifiable as Guru Gobind Singh ji's DAUGHTER in a crowd of millions . Dressing like the masses will not achieve that, we are not meant to wear the clothing of the brahmins , no dhoti or sareeas theseare dictated by their scriptures.

Jesus Christ, you really have some serious mental issues. I'm actually at a loss for words because of your sheer idiocy and ineptitude regarding Dharmik ithiaas. If that - and I mean the fact you have taken a Dharmik story and derived one of the most ridiculous messages from it....."don't wear a saari because Draupadi DUH" - is the level your buddhi works at then I'm wondering if you're putting something other than karele up your jagsaw. Maharaaj samatt bakshan.

Again I repeat if saaris are the clothing of Brahmins then why do non-Brahmin women wear it? I urge you to take a trip to Hazoor Sahib and try to lecture one of the women there, actually I dare you. Say to them what you have typed here and see what kinda uttar you get. ਬਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਛਾਪਾ ਦਿਖਾਈਂ......

If, as you say, "saaris and dhotis are dictated by their scriptures" is your reasoning why we shouldn't wear them (which personally I think is a bogus claim and is something else you have a tendency to do; make baseless claims, you should show us evidence of this claim btw), then why don't you read in my last post where I stated that wearing a turban is considered Sunnah in Islam. Do you know what sunnah means? "Sunnah means the way of the prophet". So, I ask, shall we stop wearing turbans too?

Didn't you say some of your male relatives wore a chaadra? Huh interesting, it's very closely linked with the dhoti don't you think? Sounds like Bhamanvaad to me.

20 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Running around in skirts on the battlefield is cumbersome. Our history shows our women dressed differently from muslim and hindu women because of our need to be able to defend our own honour. and to Not do display of our bodies to entice kaam in others. We are not expected to be the playthings of men butvalued as people in our own right , with responsibility forourown lives and actiins , Do you honestly think Guru ki maatavan and bhaina were dressed like hindus in solaan shingar? Our job is to dress well but not to keep our focus on our bodies but our souls.

Yeah because I'm sure you sit around all day battle-ready lol. Anyway, okay please do tell....what did Sikh women wear?

Who said anything about displaying bodies for the purposes of kaam or being playthings of men? Calm down with the dramatics. The OP clearly said she doesn't tie a sari which shows any part of her body. In any case, it's only your delusion which makes you imply that the singular purpose of a saari is kaam. A saari can be just as modest as....wait you haven't actually made a clear contrasting argument with regards to any garment have you, odd. Wonder what exactly you're referring to? Punjabi suit? Ghagra? Are these exclusive Sikh garments? Are these the ones Sikh women wore to stand out from the masses as you say?

As usual nothing but hyperbole from you, now mixing in western feminism. Your tactic of trying to make things sound scandalous to appeal to peoples moral sensitivities is laughable.

20 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

most sarees rely on tight revealing blouses, with plunging necklines , A sikh woman would not be comfortable with skmilar cuts on their kameez for a reason becauseit is not the type of modesty level required to go in front of Guru Sahiban . BTW I'm a woman too .

No they don't lol. Many kameez are tight too which is exactly why women wear their chunni or hazooria in a particular fashion.

BTW you're a hysterical woman. Get down off your soap box and give the karela-fuelled rants a rest.

Gurbar Akaal!

9 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

bruv how can it be baseless wen guru ji says wear bana? its a valid point.

Bana doesn't always necesarily include a Chola if that's what you're alluding to.

Bana is essentially Panj Kakkar, Dastaar, Kamarkassa, Shastar.

9 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

imo any amritdhari sikh of the guru shud always wear it wen able to since its confirmation of who u r but it seems sum still want the 'best of both worlds'. 

anyway if a bibi is attacked on the street then wudnt the chunni be in her face n sari wrapped around her legs n ankles etc?

By some I think you mean the majority. Most Amritdharis don't wear Bana on every single occasion they're able. Although I agree perhaps more of an effort should be made ideally speaking.

And most Amritdhari Sikh women also wear a chunni including many of those who wear a Keski/Dastaar. Many millions of women seem to do plenty of demanding physically laborious tasks just fine in saris too.

9 hours ago, AjeetSingh2019 said:

Saree is an element of Hindu Brahminical culture  . It's male equivalent is dhoti. 

Hindus have already destroyed our sovereignty in 1947 , infact long before that, and destroying Sikh identity is large part of their plan. You're helping them succeed in this.

Why don't you go ahead and also wear a mangal sutr, sindhoor, do Sati when your husband dies. In high probability you're a Hindu nationalist here with ur agenda of subsuming sikhi into hinduism 

Exaggeration as usual. If a sari is part of Brahminical culture then why do non-Brahmin women wear saris? Why would Brahmins want, or, even let non-Brahmin women to wear their clothes?

Saris are nothing more than the predominant garment for females in a geographical region. Same way a Chola is not exclusively a Sikh garment. And also the same as how thobe/jubba isn't actually an Islamic garment.

If you recall in the ridiculous 'coconuts are Brahminvaad' thread, the many instances of overlap were pointed out. But let's conveniently forget that shall we and instead make overly-dramatised, sarcastic (and lame) suggestions.

Krishan Bhagwan is known as the one who wears a pagdi so should we stop wearing them?! In Islam a turban is considered Sunnah so should we stop wearing them?!

Get a grip.

13 hours ago, puzzled said:

Im a guy but iv seen women wearing sarees and Kirpan at hazoor sahib. 

And so they should; given that most Amritdhari females don't wear a chola*, that leaves the option of a Punjabi suit and there's absolute no reason Hazoori women should be expected to wear clothing of another cultural group. As long as it's modest, there should be no issue.

*There's some differences in belief on whether women even wore a chola/are even supposed to wear one. And before someone breaks out with the modern day picture of Mai Bhago...that's not evidence lol. Either way I have no opinion on this particular matter itself.

Gurbar Akaal!

25 minutes ago, puzzled said:

Didn't guru Nanak refuse to walk around fire and drew ek onkar in the soil and Wales around that instead . 

24 minutes ago, RajKaregaKhalsa1 said:

But still when Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaaj was getting married he refused to get married around a fire and got married around Ik Oankaar

There's nothing to support this Sakhi as it told. Writing Gurbani on the ground would be a big no-no. The other version states Ik Onkaar was written on paper and placed in a high location...there is no evidence of this either.

The question also arises...that whenever there was something that Guru Sahib challenged, such as the Janeu for example, Gurbani was Uchaared, to provide the Gurmat view. However in this instance there isn't any. Wouldn't there have been if such a ceremony has been rejected especially since such a huge deal is made over this Sakhi?

It's possible (and most likely) Gurbani was read out whilst rounds were made around the fire.

Although this isn't concrete evidence itself, this mural provides an alternate course of events:

21 minutes ago, RajKaregaKhalsa1 said:

They shouldn't be. They should be doing Laavan da paath and going round Guru Sahib.

Why not? They do Laavan. Walking around Guru Sahib is a recent innovation. I'm not saying that it's wrong or that we should go back to the old way of doing it, it works just fine, but that's not to say walking around a Havan is wrong either. There are some prachaarks who believe that Havan was performed by Sikhs. Sant Gyaani Inderjeet Singh Ji Raqba mentions this, and it's mentioned in various other places.

Before Saroops of Maharaaj were printed on a mass scale, there was no walking around Maharaaj. There also isn't enough evidence to conclude how marriages were conducted during the times of the Gurus...even after Laavan was composed, do you think the whole Panth went to do phere around the physical Saroop of the Gurus? Maharaaj would have spent their entire days conducting wedding ceremonies!

The Kooka Movement shouldn't be insulted either, they did a great service for the Panth. As for what they became later on, I disagree with the direction. Nonetheless for the most part, they have cordial relations with other Sampardas.

Dhan 108 Baba Ram Singh Ji Namdhari

Before first use, soak dastaar in lukewarm water which has had salt added to it. Dishwasher salt works well.

In order to wash in washing machine, tie both ends of the dastaar separetely i.e. not together - this stops them getting tangled and you can wash more than one dastaar at a time. Use suitable washing powder. Never ever add fabric softner...it will be a nightmare to tie after. Also do not open the lengthways fold before washing.

Good qwaalty dastaar material doesn't fade much.

If you believe your washing machine is not sucham enough to wash dastaars, then please see your healthcare professional.

Gurbar Akaal!

35 minutes ago, FreshMind13 said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sikh/comments/9ypqmz/women_were_never_given_amrit/ea4iji3

Lol this isn't proof of the "Kaur" suffix. I'm not even making an argument whether women can or cannot take Amrit.