MrDoaba

I don't know enough to comment conclusively but maybe you have to look at the caste/social status of their members? Maybe they feel BJP is inconspicuously pushing Brahminism, and that Congress is more secular? This way they get the best of both worlds.

Shiv Sena's original objective was to promote a pro-Maharashtraian ideology which later materialised into Hindu Nationalism. Many are probably still irreligious because they still adhere to more of the original ideology: pro-Marathi, anti-migration. In some respects they started out with similar intentions as the Punjabi Suba Movement.

Yes phen ji, quite well aware of this. My comment was intended to provide some comic relief. Also, I read recently that technically red was one of the original colours, he wore many colours. And I'd be more inclined to say the 'red' Santa Claus we see today is in fact the creation of the RSS.

That's good bro. How long will you be going for? Have you thought about staying at Darbar Sahib? Might be a good option.

I just hope I followed the right Maryada for my Christmas tree, enough to get on that Nice list anyway! *promptly legs it*

Omg Harsh is that you?!

Bro what you're experiencing is the end of the honeymoon period or 'kirpa period' as it's known in some circles. It happens to many people. You've proven to yourself that you can in fact do all those things which is brilliant in itself. It's just a case of you finding your focus again. And just like a marriage, it requires commitment and devotion. You're practising self-reproach here, which is good, but only to an extent. If you continue, you will alienate yourself further. One thing I have noticed about Chardi Kala Gursikhs is their attitude to such mindsets; what's happened has happened, now lets find a way to move on positively. Don't pull yourself down any further bro, you recognise the issues and that is the best possible (re)start. Nothing says you cannot still be a true Singh. Many Gursikhs today were the very antithesis of a Gursikh at one point. Don't start off by trying to kill your ego, very few of us will ever suceed in completely killing our vikaars. Try to begin to get a control on them by getting your uchi jeevan back. Continue doing Ardaas. You know what's gonna come next...Simran and Bani. If waking up at amritvela is too much of a mission to attempt right now, try to get your flow and routine back for the daytime. Bro, it's not the end of the world. You were on the right path but like many of us you've decided to take a detour and now you're slightly lost. Don't worry you can find the path again; try and retrace your steps, go back to what inspired you in the first place, make a list of what Sikhi means to you and stick it on your wall if you have to. I don't know you personally so I can't comment on what exactly will work for you, you know best, and you seem wise enough to know what those things are specifically. Suicide is way more of a waste of life pharava. At least now you have a chance, you're still young. Well done. I and many others here rate you for this. Personally, I think it definitely will. I was about the same age as you when a trip to India got me interested in even remotely approaching Dharam. And I didn't even go for that reason. However, you're only 16 and if you're going alone then you need to think about how that's going to work - I'm not saying you are, but most 16yr olds are naive and people will take whatever oppurtunity they can to do you over. Do you have relatives there? As for staying at a Dera or a Nihang Dal, I can't comment on the specifics. I'm sure someone with more experience in this department will chime in. In general though, yes it is worth it. Keep your head up Veere.

It's incidents like this which make me wish Babe like Santa Claus were real.

Did you find out then, if you're allowed to put it together?

This is a point of contention amongst some Sikhs. Another time, another place. Any particular ones which stand out? This is a good point. As far as I know, there isn't any Goddess Bhagauti/Bhagwati in Sanatan Mat per say. I believe it's more of a generic term. I'm gonna get backlash for the way I put this but Bhaguati is almost the Goddess of Sikhi... *runs for cover*. Personification is a sin. With the first theory it makes sense if you look at Shiv-Shakti from a Gurmat perspective. Second theory also makes sense if you continue with the the theme of Dasam Bani in general. In both cases I think it's just a matter of assigning names so the reader can relate in a familiar way. Now this makes it even more interesting. We've sort of already discerned that Maa Baala and Bhavani are the Puran Shakti of Akaal (correct me if I'm wrong), but if we are we go with the theory that it is in fact Mata Ji delivering the message to herself, what in your opinion, is the message here for the reader? Not to stray, along those lines?

I can't tell if you're joking here? If not, then lol.

Neither am I bro. Here's the Hazoor Sahib one, you've probably already come across it. It has additional lines but not the Dohara. The 12th line isn't included either. I'll keep my eye out anyway. http://www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/downloads/Gurbani/Das-Granthi-Pothi.pdf pg 425 I don't know if it would go against any maryada etc to make a complete version yourself. I shouldn't think so as there are a few versions already out there, they obviously put in and omitted what they thought was right. Best to double check with someone more knowledgeable though.

What's wrong with you bro? You got a warning so you would stop talking about such ridiculous things, not so you could make continuous references to russian roulette in which ever thread you wanted. For God's sake stop it. MODS: Could you please delete my post and the above post. And any other posts with references to such sh!t advice. Thanks.

Good stuff bro. This should be moved to the Gurbani/Scriptures section.

ਮੂਰਖ ਹੈਗਾ ਤੂ ਫਿਰੰਗੀ ਸਾਲਾ... ਬੀਰੇ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੁੱਖ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਐ ਕੇ ਤੁਸਾਂ ਨੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ...ਚਲੋ.. ਮੇਰੇ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਕਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਮੈਂ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਾਂ? ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤੂਤਾਂ ਹੱਲੇ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ... ਅੱਜ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਘਰ ਆਏ..ਸੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਦਾ ਦਾਨ ਬਖਸ਼ੋ ਜੀ ਨਾਲੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਜਗਾਓ ਅਤੇ ਘੰਟੀ ਬਜਾਓ

Bro while Punjab is our ancestral homeland and very dear to us you can't expect only NRI's to sort out these issues. We live in the UK and there are issues which affect us here too. Even then we do our utmost best to promote Punjabi and Sikhi. Say we did have some control over what's happening in Punjab, what, in your opinion, would you want us to do? Genuinely asking. You actually live in India, so what are you doing for the cause?

Excellent analysis and observations bro. Very insighful. Here's my feeble interpretation of it. A few things came to mind when reading this. Firstly what Agni Dev represents in Indic thought. Agni symbolises sacrifice; it was during a battle in which many sacrifices were made did fire appear, and from this fire Maa Baala was born. It's almost as if she was a boon granted to the world and Dharam or in other words "Akaal Sahai" i.e. everlasting support for those in pursuit of righteousness. Through the sacrifice of Dharam Yudh is righteousness propagated and restored, and seeing as Bir Rass/Dharam Yudh is one of the core messages of Dasam Granth it would make sense. As you say, she has no lineage from either side, and this ties in with the purity; She (like Gursikhs/Khalsa and Brahmgyanis), has transcended Paap and Punn, she is representative of Shudh Gyaan, a state which upon reaching one realises their only objective is to merge with Akaal Purkh; becoming a Soul-Bride. In order to attain this state one could use the inner Yajna (again being fire) or inner purification analogy, in which the fire of Brahmgyaan destroys doubt, ignorance, and the panj vikaar. In both a real Yajna and a metephorical one, in order to keep the fire burning, the ingedients must be pure. In this case it would correspond to practising and mastering the five virtues as per Sikhi. Finally, the Nirmal Pursh becomes the ultimate sacrifice in the Maha Yajna that is Kalyug, and as Agni is considered messagener/mediator between man and God, the Aatma is transported back to where it came from. OR as Agni Dev is also a witness in marriage ceremonies, here he becomes the witness of the eternal union of said Nirmal Pursh (Soul-Bride) with his Creator. There is a source which mentions Yajna/Havan in Sikhi, can't remember what it is. And I have no idea if it's metephorical or literal, or both. Many believe it was both but I won't attempt to promote such a possibility here, for obvious reasons. I also remember reading about it in other Indic worship systems once (besides Sanatan Mat) I don't have much to add to this paragraph, I think you've got it spot on especially the part about the 3 guna's. Just a couple of questions. So Kaal Purkh instructs her to wage war against the demons or inner demons as you say, then God assists her to help her destroy the demons too - are these now literal demons (the evil in the world)? If so, is what your referring to Miri-Piri in a nutshell, that one must become Sant before Sipahi in order to avoid the likes of tyranny, unjust actions etc? I'll have a read of it. That's another thing you can thank the Sodhak Committee for removing. If I had to guess I would say before. Maa Baala is referred to as Bhavani later on in the Charitr, and in the Dusht Daman story Chandi comes for help; so in a chronological sense if Mata Ji has manifested as Bhavani you could assume that it's her who goes to Dusht Daman because I believe Chandi, Durga, Bhavani, Bhagauti are used interchangeably. Maybe Suraj Prakash Granth just chooses to look at from a different perspective, or a more relatable one? That's an interesting point about Krishan and Arjun. Maybe the answer can be found in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's commentary on the Gita? I wouldn't be surprised if there was seeing as the main theme of Dasam Granth and the Gita overlap somewhat. Maybe the moral of this part of the story is one of redemption in the context of lakh chaurasi and or Karma, a warning of sorts for the reader? Although it would be highly dependant on Bhavani's status throughout the Charitr. I'm just speculating here. The amount of Gyaan one can gain from just this one part of the Charitr and its veechaar has left me astonished I must say. Time to sit back now and wait for the RSS comments and 'Hindu' accusations to start pouring in. *Leaves laptop to go and reapply Kanku and Chandan*

What happened to accepting all the different levels that Gurbani speaks to certain people here? as I said before. You want your irrational rule to apply to everyone else expect you and your group. If you bothered to read that post carefully you would have seen the quotation marks, and the words 'Dr. Kamalroop Singh' at the bottom. Unless you think I've somehow miraculously morphed into Kamalroop Singh, I suggest you take it up with him. All your post shows is your lack of concentration and that you are intent on having an argument with me. And yes I want my irrational rule to apply to everybody else except me and my group, whoever they are. We are all narrow-minded terrible sinners. You should make a case to have us excommunicated if it bothers you so much. Not that 'me and my group' would give a crap.

There's no point bro, you'll be wasting your time. I'm not gonna get into a discussion about any of this with you because it's gonna become a p!ssing match. Things are going to get lost in translation, pun intended. Everything you're going to say has been said a million times before. It will come down to this: "this jathebandi, that jathebandi, that group, that samparda, this baba, that baba etc etc" and all that goes along with it, including Panthic politics on a deeper level. None of which I wish to devote my time to. All I'll say is I've not slandered anyone. Yeah I don't generally like the SGPC et al if that's who you mean by modern Sikhs, but I haven't said anything close to slander. And how in Gods good name did you take what I wrote Namdharis to be against them? My comment about their Baba was supposed to be positive, if somewhat ironic. His samparda is highly marginalised, people don't call them Sikhs, yet he calls for ekta and recognises the differences in the Panth (and is trying to lead his Sikhs back into the wider panth, although these are suspicious claims). There is humour, irony, and truth in that post. Which you've obviously failed to spot. You need to loosen up bro, you've misread my posts before and put whole new meanings to them out of thin air. And if anything, Namdharis are on par with traditional Sampards in regards to how Puratan/Sanatan they are, so it would not make sense for me to bash them in this context. Stick to what you believe in, and I'll stick to what I believe in. Bas.

ਜੋਕ ਸੀ ਪਾਊ...ਕੋਈ ਮਾਫੀ ਮੂਫੀ ਮੰਗਣ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨੀ. ਮੈਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਐ, ਪਰ ਕਈ ਲੋਕ ਸੋਚਦੇ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਦੋ ਨੰਬਰ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਖ ਐ (ਉਹ ਲੋਕ ਇੱਕ ਨੰਬਰ ਦੇ ਕੱਟੜਵਾਦੀ). ਲੇਕਿਨ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਕੂਕਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਬਾਬਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਜਾਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਨ. ਸਹੀ ਕ ਨਹੀ? ਜੇ ਨਹੀ, ਫੇਰ ਤਾਂ ਲੱਗੀ ਅੱਗ ਏਕਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਬੀਰੇ...

I'm offended. But since you ask, I follow Divaism. The Diva is the main Godhead. And I put my Diva in the air and wave it around like I just don't care. Now, Veer Ji, forgive me if I offend you, but I just wanted to know...why do you like your own posts? Just wanted to know because I didn't know that there were people who like their own posts on here too. Jai Diva Di

Phenji, I'm not married but shall give my take on it. I can't comment on how you and partner could express your love for one another without being physical due to all the variables that occur in your personal life, this is something you two will have to think about and discuss. Communicate with eachother without hesitation and be completely honest, find things which are suitable and things which fit in with your schedule. This may sound funny but I in no way mean it as a joke - find a long tv series to watch, Netflix etc, one you can immerse yourself in, this is good for time-pass and can count as good quality alone time. I only say this after seeing other couples do it (Gursikhs included) and how much they enjoy it together (and the amount of time they waste on it in some cases). Choose one that doesn't contain too much sexual content obviously. Of course this is just one example, there are probably many things you could do together which can be classed as qwaalty taaim, but this one is good for couples with kids who only have time at night, and who need a distraction. As for your issue with the more 'adventurous' physical relations, I cannot comment on this either, I have no opinion one way or the other. However, if it is bothering you and you do not wish to continue with it, and I'm using logic here, one tip is to try abstaining from any physical relations for a period of time you deem suitable/take longer gaps in between. Naturally, your desire for one another should be enough so as not to lead you to the more adventurous side. All in all though, really it's the business of the couple what they do behind closed doors, and what is right or wrong if such a thing even exists (which I don't believe it does). Concerning the amount of times per week, this should be up to you, although personally I don't see anything wrong with daily...you are husband and wife after all. I don't think you need to go pesh either but that's up to you. If the issue is a case of high libido (and you think this may be hindering you spiritually), then I would suggest seriously looking into Ayurveda to balance this. And I don't mean a baba handing you a bunch of suspicious herbs. Ayurveda is more than just a medical system, it's a way of life governed by what we consume and the effect it has on ones mental and physical wellbeing. Even if high libido isn't the issue, I would still recommend looking into it. With Gurbani, why don't you both make a target, set days, aims, make a timetable etc. Quality trumps quantity but there are exceptions. This can be a great way to build a new routine. Working towards a goal, especially a Dharmik one, is rewarding in itself. Hope this helps in some way.

Very well put. It is one of the worst designs I have ever seen. Impractical. There's Gurdwaras which formerly used to be factories that make better use of the space. Tbh what do you expect from a Gurdwara which has pay-as-you-go Akhand Paths. It's a business, not a place of worship. The only discussions that happen there are between committee members and they take place in the khajaanchis office.

By this logic all translations, arths, teekas etc should just go out the window. Gurbani (including other Sikh writings) is subject to interpretation as it has many layers and so speaks to different people on different levels. Gurbani has no ant, therefore no translation etc is completely right. I was merely providing you with another line as a clearer example that aarti could well have been performed with divas. Just as you provided the former to try and definitively prove that it was not - even in that one it says that aarti was sung, it doesn't state it was strictly only sung; one could unambiguously assume that the accompanying ritual went along with it, that it need no mention, hence, me finding a different one to show that distinct possibility. You're trying to play a game of semantics, and a poor one at that. You're welcome to that opinion. You keep coming back to that quote stating that aarti is not to be done with divas - 1) not everybody is Taksali nor is Taksal the final authority on each and every thing in Sikhi nor does what they say apply to the whole panth 2) by saying (specifically) that a Gurmukh had to write it in a book, you are automatically implying that those who do aarti with candles are not Gurmukhs, an opinion which you have absolutely no foundation or evidence to hold. While Taksal is a respected Samparda, their members are generally biased and think only they have the correct form of Sikhi, which is what you are doing, which is flawed thinking. First you say "if aarti was clear cut", then you proceed to say "Bhai Gurdas ji would have not left it to ambiguous interpretations" - these statements contradict eachother. The aarti itself is not clear cut, the intention and devotion behind doing it differs amongst individuals - if one chooses to do it without divas, do it with divas, or do it with moving the divas around in a circular motion there shouldn't be a problem, none are wrong. Everybodys bhaav is not the same. In the case of divas one is honouring their Sargun Isht Dev and Spiritual & Temporal King with an ancient ceremony which, IMO and that of many others, is not considered against the teachings of Sikhi. We're not going to come to a consensus on this so lets leave it where it is. I no longer wish to discuss it. Although, I'm glad I've been able to have this discussion with you, without any hostility as is usually the case. Dhanvaad Jio.

That's because it's a matter of interpretation. You're right in saying the translator has added in words but that's because he has also interpreted it as he see's fit. As for no mention of candles, it doesn't have to be mentioned as it is implied in this case. The definition of the word ਆਰਤੀ is enough. Asking for the specific mention of divas would be like asking for the different materials that should be used to make Chaur Sahib, and in what manner one should wave the chaur. Although English translations are often botched, I will still provide it for reference as it seems to fit: Having recited the Sohila and made supplication at night they distribute sacred food (prasad).