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k i guess i'll post in this thread... first off...i'm a little annoyed with namastang...man... you know you're not wrong in your assessment of the recording...but have class bro... and i know you'll turn around and tell me to tell the others to have class...but fact is...others don't know as much about sikhi as you do... they haven't do the sangat of mahapurshes and listened to kathas and done vichar...so knowing all this... you should be gracious in letting them know that this isn't gurmat... now..to everyone who might defend the recording...not only is it in gurbani that japping of naam should be done in sehaj...if you read the books of saints and other gurmukhs on this path...they'll say that such outbursts are actually common among people that have just STARTED doing simran..it's because when they first start doing simran, they cannot control the intensity of naam..and they do this...HOWEVER....all saints will strictly tell you that this is NOT gurmat...and that such outbursts should be controlled RIGHT away...and avoided... some people will start doing drama of this and lead others to think that they are spiritually advanced...this is also against gurmat... this is also very distracting to other sangataan sitting in sangat trying to jap naam in saihaj...and the WHOLE PURPOSE of doing simran together in sangat is to help each other concentrate on GURMANTAR....NOT...distract each other....so this again...is against gurmat... i've attended sadh sangat samagams all my life..and have witnessed sangatis sometime bursting out...when they lose control...and almost everytime...it's usually a new sangatii...who hasn't been given the full guidance of how to deal with such things that come up...and everytime someone does do something like that..it is not let go...instead a sevadaar will go up to them right aaway...and put their hand on their back....and try to get them to quiet down...in a quiet fashion so that sangat is not disrupted and the sangati himself/herself can get back to doing simran... again...Namastang veer... you don't know what actually went on during that recording...it's easy to get a two minute clip and slate people...but what do you know that after that happened...an elder in the sangat didn't explain to them that this wasn't gurmat?...maybe they explained to the singhs right away after that...you don't know..i don't know....so there's no point in going all "respect for maharaj" on these guys....just chill.... also...i've been to most of the YOUTH programs in TO in the last three years...i've seen you at ONE program..and that too was like...for an hour or so...so i don't think you can comment on what goes on at the youth programs...i was in waterloo just two weekends ago..and yes...the kirtan at times was loud and fast...but there must have been like ONE person i saw doing any head motions...everyone else was just singing waheguru fast and loud...without any distortion of it... if you want proof...just look at ontariosikhyouth.ca the videos are up...

we can't tell the panj to do anything....you can only do a benti...

wjkk wjkf hallucination veerji, you're not a bad son or a bad sikh...you are simply stuck at an obstacle in your spiritual path... there are two options for you...one is to give up... the second is to not give up... and the way not to give up is to start reading more gurbani...doing vichar of gurbani... start attending sadh sangat, do simran...do seva... i would suggest reading a book called Spirit Born People...it is one of the few books written originally in english by a great writer and sikh saint, Prof Puran singh ji...when i am in need of inspiration i often find myself opening up this book and reading....i believe you would find answers and inspiration also... don't worry about the beard cutting...the cutting of the beard reflects the inner struggle your soul is having at a place in your path....once you understand that obstacle...and are prepared to tackle it...then your soul will cross it...and the beard of the Guru will dwell on your face..that i promise you.

http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=sri...e&page=2474 that link shows the vichar on this pangti which is a part of a full shabad..that we should be looking at... lets consider this pangti ...discarding worldy adornments...again...guru sahib uses metaphors to describe concepts... in plain language...how do we meet our lord....gurbani tells us...where there is haumai....naam can't reside...and where there is naam...there can't be haumai....our haumai remains strong because we fuel it everyday, every moment we don't live in remembrance of waheguru...we fuel it with kaam, krodh, lob, moh, ahankar, jhoot, eerkhaa, devait... in this shabad...when guru sahib refers to worldy adornments...it's talking about all the attachments, all the vishay vikaar such as the ones listed above...how we need to remove all of that from ourselves so that our soul may rise above this physical and mental plane and gain entry into the spiritaul plane...our spiritual home in the charan of akal purkh... again...read the whole shabad to get a full understanding of the shabad...

jassa veer... i have heard that not all of salok dummaallay kay is actually gurbani...some parts of it are and some parts the nihungs have added as an oral tradition to recite to keep spirits up and infuse enthusiasm.... again...we must get our guidance from gurbani...

i just rpelied to this thread..but i forgot to sign in...so it'll show up eventually as guest... anyhow..i forgot to read amarjeet's post in full as i stopped reading once i saw how he blatantly misused gurbani to make points... regarding my point about family and whatnot...you have misread my entire point..and invite you to read it again..and do some vichar...if you cannot think deeply...you shouldn't try to bring things to a more superficial level... never once did i say anything about families being against gurmat... i was speaking in reference to the face that gurbani says everytihng that is physical...everything DISSANHAAR ...is BINSANHAAR...and it's all KOOR.... so that includes EVERYTHING...gurbani says it directly....now you'll ask me to give you a pangti....go read asa di //...you know that gurbani compositin that we sing and listen to daily??? ...it's time to pay attention to it ... the reason this was brought up was that people's justifications for saying sikhi is against makeup was that...oh why do you care what you look like...oh it's maya...all motivations that can be applied to ANYTHING... Gurbani talks about the soul..talks about the MInd...the motivations....if someone goes to sadh sangat for years and does seva for years...he'll get what was in his mind...however, if it's not naam that was his motivation...he'll NEVER get naaam.... again...i invite you to read sukhmani sahib....do vichar of sukhmani sahib...listen to giyani takhur singh ji's katha on sukhmani sahib... and again..all those activities you are analysing them from your limited perspective..not guru sahib's perspective...you're attaching a practicality beside them..so that makes them okay ...but in the case of makeup...just cuz YOU don't see the practicality...and in truth..i don't see it either...but others see it...and it's for them to decide....guru sahib never said...only do things that make sense to baba amarjeet singh....did he?...what ang was that on? again...i am sure we will always disagree...however...i am also sure that none of you will be able to justify using sikhism to push your opinions on others with gurbani....you may try, you may twist...but if you read the viakhyaa of gurbani done by scholars and saints...you will see that these pangtis you use for such a physical realm issue...are intended for a much higher realm...

k..in reference to the gur mil och dumallara pangti.... the vichar from Prof Sahib Singh's darpan is http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...ge&page=338 this whole shabad...guru ji talks about how he met the true guru and all his affairs were taken care of by the true guru... in various verses he's given examples of metaphors...in one he's used farming, in one he used a village that was in trouble but now is saved...like wise in verse 17 of this shabad...he uses the metaphor of being in a wrestling match and being the winner... to understand this metaphor..we need to know what the dumallaraa is that guru ji is talking about...in the wrestling akharaas...the winner used to get the dumallara put on his head to signify that he was the winner... so when guru ji says mai gur mil ouch dhumaalarraa | he is saying...that he is in the wrestling tournament...however...he has met the True Guru...so he has the ouch dhumalalraa...meaning since he has met the True Guru...he won the wrestling competition....all of verse 17 is talking about the wrestling competition...he describes that the whole world is present at the match and that god himself is watching the wrestling match... then in verse 18 guru ji tells more about what happens in this wrestling match..how he is surrounded by the other wrestlers, but by the guru's grace, he has been able to beat the five opponents...those five being kaam, krodh, lob, moh, hankaar... SO in essence...this shabad also does not have anything to with guru sahib telling us to wear dastaars...it is a metaphor describing the triumph our souls will have over the five vices once we truly become of the guru....

the second shabad you have provided from ang 1083, Prof Sahib Singh's vichar of it can be found at this link.... http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...e&page=4263 the vichar of the arth is in punjabi... from what i understand of the shabad...guru sahib is using the metaphor of the muslim's practices and dress...and equating them to different positive attributes of a bhagat... there are many shabads like this in gurbani...in which guru sahib will use meaphors to explain a concept...for example....in one shabad he says...naam beej, santokh suhaga, rakh gareebi ves... in this pangti guru sahib explaining if spirituality was a farm...naam would be the seed, santokh would be the plowing and working the farm, and humility would be the fence... the pangti isn't telling us to go out and live on a farm and do farming and build fences...it is merely using metaphors to communicate with the people how gursikhi lifestyle is... in the shabad that jaspaul singh provided...the reference to sabat soora dastaar sira....guru ji is talking to the muslim...he's saying...yeah...you have a prayer mat, you have a nimaag, you have a turban, you have a certain dress....but the message is...all these are fine and dandy...but the main this is having and cultivating those positive attributes that guru ji equates them to....in fact this shabad has nothing to do with telling sikhs that they have to wear a dastaar... in my next post i'll look at the first shabad...

how are you making the assumption that i said something is right because most people do it...?? it's about whether or not it's right or wrong according to gurmat...lets look to that for answers... i have yet to see gurbani tell us not to wear makeup

before posting shabads we should thoroughly do vichar... the shabad Khoob teri pagri meethay teray bol... we need to understand the circumstance that bhagat naam dev ji was in when he wrote the shabad.... at the time he wrote the shabad...he was on the roadside on his way to Dwarka...he was tired and thirsty..and in his mind thought...if god could send me a horse to ride or a drink of water...the next instant, a mughal was riding and stopped and yelled at bhagat ji, that his horse is tired and told bhagat ji to pull his horse... instead of being upset...this experience sent bhagat ji's soul straight to akal purkhs charan...and so he describes the outer appearance of the mughul...but sees it as his akal purkh ...and that's why he says...dwarka nagri kahay kay mughol?.... this shabad is of a very deep spiritual nature...nothing to do with whether to wear pugs or not...

guru gobind singh ji gave the khalsa panth the pavitar piyaari fateh, waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh...to be exchanged when two amritdharis come across one another's path... there is nothing that says we cannot bow to our elders...bowing to elders out of respect for being older ...and matha teking to guru sahib in symbolic representation of giving our head to Him on a daily basis are two different things.... you still haven't shown that bowing to elders is against gurmat....if you want to have a progressive conversation about this topic..please start providing vichar of gurbani, of ithaasic sakhis...

i've talked to a number of girls as to why they wear makeup and jewellery... and none of them have ever said it was for the guys....it's what they like to do... i'm not saying there are no girls who do it for the guys...but to say the opposite statement for every girl that wears makeup is just as wrong... also...i still have yet to see where guru ji has said makeup OR jewellery is against gurmat... yes...guru ji does question people that are stuck in makeup and jewellery and why they dont remember akal purkh...ie..do simran, seva, sangat... he says of what use is all this...but then we should also remember that guru ji says that about a lot of things...the message of gurbani is EVERYTHING we see is binsanhaaar....it will all go one day...SIMRAN is the ONLY thing that Remains...remember Akhaaa jeevaan, visraay mar jaaoo....those who live in remembrance live, all others are dead... but none of us are willing to say that our families are agisnt gurmat, going to school is against gurmat, wearing nice clothes is against gurmat, wearing nice shoes, cleaning our bodies...all the daily things that we all do....is against gurmat... i don't understand then why is it that makeup and jewellery are attacked.... i'm not someone that encourages anyone to wear makeup...to me, the preoccupation of wearing makeup and the preoccupation that many singhs these days have with how nice they can make their dumalla, what design kirpan looks the best, whether their chola has rounded corners or straight corners....both are TWO sides of the same coin....and the coin is of the PHYSICAL PLANE.... Our guru's bani is that of the spiritual plane...lets not limit it with our intellect, but reflect on it with our intuition... to the bhenji who said...that you can't be all good on the inside and not show it on the outside....you TOO are stuck in physical..and you have made that statement from a sort of ethnocentric place...cuz to you...a good person doesn't wear makeup, looks a certain way...how can you say such things while being a sikh of guru... someone who wears the panj kakkaars...says nothing about whether or not they are a good person...all it signifies is that this is a person who may be walking the guru's path...that person like any other person may be a nice person or not a very nice person... as sikhs of our guru sahib, we should recognize that the jot of akal purkh is in everyone...where someone is in their spiritual path should not be our business...you should see them as a child of god, and a brother/sister that has crossed paths in our soul journey... with all you people judging those girls with makeup on...no wonder they don't want to come into sikhi or do sangat with you people...i myself have endured instances of being judged and i don't do sangat with those same people anymore....just because i don't wear a chola, or a big kirpan on top of my clothes, or that i tie my dari... i remember on the first day of second year at U of T...as i was leaving the lecture hall...i saw a singhni of guru sahib, she was dressed in a bana with a keski...i remember being all excited and stopped to say fateh, and she didn't even reply with a fateh...just kinda nodded her head...the girl beside...her wasn't in any bana...smiled and said "waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh"... now you tell me as a human being...what would you make of that? again i'm not saying one is better than the other...i'm just saying we can't always know the inner condition of someone's soul, simply by what we see on the exterior...

actually, militant kaur bhenji... none of these fellow members have provided any references to gurbani, gurmat rehit maryada, gurmat ithaas to back up any of their claims... i ask you guys to provide gurmat references....otherwise you have no place to claim what is in sikhi and what isn't in sikhi... and calling someone a freshy pindu....have some respect bro...

k i just talked to a singh about the issue with tattoos.. inherently...just geting a pigment on your body isn't a huge thing..i wouldn't make a fuss about it but he said that when he enquired about getting a tatoo.that he was told they have to shave some hair off that area in order to do it... so now ... if hair needs to be removed...then getting a tatoo wouldn't make sense

dear guest, if you read my post adequately you would have read that i made a distinction between hair that women have and hair that men have...hair itself has different varieties...even the facial hair that is "normal" for women is DIFFERENT type than the type facial hair that men have... and no matter what race you're from..if you're a woman and find that your facial hair strands are thicker..you should see a doctor...there is no jumping to conclusions here...it is called being a cognizant person... just like...if you found a lump or a certain pigmentation anywhere on your body...it could be a totally normal variant for you but you'd still be advised to see a doctor JUST IN CASE it could be something more.... same way, do you not agree that our sisters should have this information regarding facial hair? don't be so emotional that you stop using logic... and no where did i say it should be removed...all the post was to give the sisters information that could be of use to them...

everyone's comments here are valuable and valid. i just wanted to add that women are not physiologically supposed to have much facial hair...i mean..everyone has som hair...and that's not and shouldn't be a big thing... but the type of hair that men have on their faces should not be on a woman's face...yes there are different types... if you are a girl and find yourself with excessive facial hair you should see the doctor because it usually is symptomatic of a hormonal imbalance..which can affect your health adversely.... i'm not saying to remove your hair...just saying...see the doctor to make sure there isn't any underlying pathological process that is causing it..

i replied to this thread awhile ago but i guess i'd forgotten to log in and the admin didn't post my reply.. firstly to all those who told our bhen she's not ready to take amrit....GET A LIFE...you just have shown how little giyaan you have of any spirituality/sikhi... bhennay you are gonna go meet your dasam pathsah in the amrit sanchar.. YOUR FATHER...in the roop of panj piyaraay...if you want to present yourself to him in your favourite suit, whether it has kadaaii or no kadaai, you should do so....as long as you have one thing in your mind...that it is for your GURU that you are dressing up simplicity that guru ji talks about is not the physical simplicity of not wearing nice clothes...it is simplicity in action, thoughts, feelings, to not be attached to maya...nowhere are we instructed to not wear the best of clothes, to not eat the best of food... just read about raja janak...he was maya vich udaasi....he was a pooran gurmukh..he was also a wealthy wealthy king....i bet all you people, had you been around during his time, would have condemned him also...shame on all of you bhennay..my only advice to you is to go in with a pure heart and pure intentions...you are about to begin the first day of your new life...begin it with high spirits, with love, devotion, and enthusiasm... receive naam from panj piyaray, and then begin your life of seva, simran, sangat... as to what suit to wear...it doesn't matter...as long as whatever you choose...you choose it keeping your guru in mind....if you do that..then all is well... to others who talk about simplicity...you should read some ithaas and learn more about our guru's lives and philosophy....learn what true simplicity is...not some outer dead shell of simplicity, but one that is vibrant, radiating with guru nanak's love and beauty.... waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

i'm not a fan of kushwant singh and i totally agree with most people on this board that his writings are full of inciteful remarks... just wanted to point to S1ngh veerji....what's his children's marriage got to do with anything?? parents are parents, children are children... they grow up and start making their own choices....his sikhi is not to be measured by what his children do or not do...that's a pretty weird way to judge anything...

yes..thank you papi.. it is true that dreams can be used by the guru sahib to shower his grace and help cut our karmic balances... we can see this happening at guru gobind singh ji's time..when one raja lost faith in the guru because he heard a specific gurbani line and he thought that what use is having a guru if i have to pay up for my karma anyway... that night when he slept he went through many different lives of being born again and again... and the next morning he went to guru sahib..and guru sahib explained what had happened and he realized the power of GURPARSAD... note to pritam khalsa....we acknowledge that you have faith in sikhi and are enthusiastic...but please REFRAIN from giving such DEFINITIVE comments when you haven't read the ithaas fully to know what is and isn't possible....it's more than okay to give your thoughts on the subject...but to project them as facts is harmful for others who are reading as well as you for misguiding others....

singh with dunalli.. you really should start thinkikng on a deeper level... saying you are right..they don't have the "balls" ... do you? if you do, ask yourself what makes you different from them? what's been different about your life than those people? have you had the influence of gursikhs? gurbani? did someone take the time out to explain gurbani to you? did you have some positive sangat??? i don't know the last time you went to india...but my friend...i go to india pretty much once a year...and i have the opportunity to intereact with the locals....lets just say... a lot of them DO have balls....but no inspiration... don't forget that every single shaheed in sikh history gave shaheedi because they had strength of naam...had the strength of love flowing in their veins...they wren't some punks who thought it was cool to put up pics of others shooting someone...the didn't go around telling people they don't have balls or whatnot...they were naam abhiyaasis... how'd they become naam abhiyaasis??? thru guru's kirpa...thru gurmat....through love of the guru...through sangat of fellow gursikhs... if you don't know someone's personal situation..it is very arrogant and extremely "un-singh" like to go around making your little calls.... remember guru nanak thought simple living...higher thinking....let's work on the higher thinking here bro...

as a medical student, i feel it's important to tell you to please STICK to the therapy that the psychiatrist recommends and take your medication daily...it will help you...even on the days you feel better ...still take your medication... and yes...continue doing simran and paath

gelling your beard or not has NOTHING to do with being a chardi kala singh... only people that make an issue of this is the people who aren't willing to do the harder stuff, which is simran, seva, sangat.... if it was as easy as just keeping your beard flowing...we'd have a lot more gurmukhs...sadly we DON"T... maybe we're all focusing on the wrong things!!! comments like guru ji will be pleased with a flowing beard are BS...guru ji will be pleased to see a sikh who keeps his punj kakkar, a sikh who rises early and does ishnaan and does simran, and reads gurbani, then keeps the lessons of gurbani in his mind and heart throughout the day, guru ji will be pleased with the sikh who without thinking is ever ready to do seva for this world, guru ji will be pleased with the sikh that recognizes the creator in this creation.... arguing over gelling...useless..and we wonder why over 80% of villagers in punjab have cut their hair and why most youth don't want to attend gurdwaras...cuz the "singhs" they might look up to for inspiration don't talk about how nice it is to serve humanity, don't talk about wanting to do more simran, don't open their arms others, instead argue of useless things like gelling your beard...

k...everyone that knows me will know that i think everything ghagga believes is a joke and i don't agree with his opinion at all...nor do i agree with khalsa fauj's opinions... and i can respect the akal takt action against ghagga...but i was talking to someone and they said that normal maryada of such actions was that akal takt would call the person in question to explain their side..and not just make a judgment that quickly... In my opinion, the masands in charge of akal takt (and yes i did say masands...because we all know that akal takt right now is in corrupt hands of badal and co) just made a hasty (although, probably a good one) decision just to sort of throw a bone at all of us...i dunno...i mean...on one hand they take action against ghagga and on the other hand...the worldwide sangat has been complaining about baba maan for more than two years and they remain mute on that issue just cuz badal wants to win an election? the sgpc's strategy against people cutting their hair is to hold turban camps??? great strategy, lets not focus on ithaas, lets not focus on leading jeevans that would inspire sikh youth, lets not focus on explaining gurbani, and importance of seva, simran, sangat.(pls not sarcasm)..i mean what kind of bs is that... ALSO... it would have been soo cool, soo refreshing if akal takt management could have at least shown point for point how ghagga was wrong in his assertions....i mean...at the very least...if they don't have the giyaan in india..they could have at least phoned respected kulbir singh veerji who did an amazing job of showing what khoj of gurbani can yield... and to daljeet singh...i don't think its a good idea to say that people who side with ghagga should be banned...why? cuz this is a sikh forum....you will get many people with many differing views...show the world that singhs can outsmart others in debate...and not suppress viewpoints without showing them to be false...this is not islam... like...will you ban all the people that support bhaniarawala? nirankaris? RSS? cuz i'm sure we all have seen their posts...if you were to institute a policy it should be clearly of what points are not allowed to be challenged and apply that across the board...i would at least see and respect the rationality in that... challo...after seeing the videos...i'm not sure that ghagga has any of his opinions out of malice..i think it's just what he really thinks...so i don't think i can hate him for that...maybe i'm more innocent than others... if i ever saw the guy, i'd probably hand him some reading material on gurmat from various inspiring gursikhs and wish him good luck on his spiritual journey.... remember...that a blessing of love is more powerful at changing people than simply condemning them... k..this post has been longer than i intended...gotta do some serious amount of simran to make up for this... waheguru ji k khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

wow..that's good news now if akal takt could be a little more faster in dealing with some of the other pressing panthic problems sikhs have...ie....BADAL...and others

actually, jaspaul..there's no need to lie to the sangat...i don't know what your motivation for doing so is.. the amrit sanchar was planned more than 4 weeks in advance...and it was YOUR idea to have the panj come in to the sangat right from the beginning...and you talked to me about talking to the panj..and they were totally cool with it...and they said..they know how it works cuz they do that before too... and then a week before the darbar...you messaged me saying certain people had issues with it..mainly singhs associated with the akj as they had stopped that practice in toronto.. lets not mislead people to forward your own agenda... be a singh and live the truth