BhForce

See, the problem is that he is being dishonest in his approach. I asked him whether he takes the same approach in relation to every other author that is presented in his school or college classes. He says yes. Sorry, but I cannot but see that as a lie. The teacher starts out to teach Shakespeare, or whatever, and he (instead of reading from the play), starts talking about "What proof is there that Shakespeare even existed?" or "These are Shakespeare's actual words"? Or the teacher starts talking about WWII, and he says "What proof is there that Churchill or Hitler even existed?" Oh, I would love to hear him say "There's no proof that Hitler killed 6 million Jews." Go ahead @mahandulai. Write up an article saying that (with your actual name), send it to a newspaper, or your college professor. So, @Jaggaa, the problem people have is not with skepticism, but with a skepticism reserved only for our Gurus and Sikhism.

What are you even trying to say? Do you have a functioning level of intellect or reasoning? The line about ਚਾਲਾ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ਭਗਤਾਹ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਿਖਮ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਲਣਾ ॥ is referring to devotees living a distinct lifestyle. That should be obvious: if you're going to live exactly as everyone else, what is the need for Gurbani in the first place? The line you quoted has nothing to do with that. This line is saying to view everyone equally. It does not say live like everyone else, including boozing, womanizing, doing drugs, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.

You're full of ego. An egotist can never understand God or spirituality. You think that you're invincible. One day, you're going to die, and be presented in the Court of the Dharam Raj. And you'll have nothing to say for yourself. Just a useless life of poking fun at the Guru and his saints. ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗਿ ਕੈ ਹੋਇ ਭਸਮੜਿ ਭਉਰੁ ਸਿਧਾਇਆ ॥ Aapeenhai Bhog Bhog Kai Hoe Bhasamarr Bhour Sidhhaaeiaa || Enjoying his pleasures, one is reduced to a pile of ashes, and the soul passes away. ਵਡਾ ਹੋਆ ਦੁਨੀਦਾਰੁ ਗਲਿ ਸੰਗਲੁ ਘਤਿ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥ Vaddaa Hoaa Dhuneedhaar Gal Sangal Ghath Chalaaeiaa || He may be great, but when he dies, the chain is thrown around his neck, and he is led away. ਅਗੈ ਕਰਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਵਾਚੀਐ ਬਹਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ ॥ Agai Karanee Keerath Vaacheeai Behi Laekhaa Kar Samajhaaeiaa || There, his good and bad deeds are added up; sitting there, his account is read. ਥਾਉ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਪਉਦੀਈ ਹੁਣਿ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਰੂਆਇਆ ॥ Thhaao N Hovee Poudheeee Hun Suneeai Kiaa Rooaaeiaa || He is whipped, but finds no place of rest, and no one hears his cries of pain. ਮਨਿ ਅੰਧੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ Man Andhhai Janam Gavaaeiaa ||3|| The blind man has wasted his life away. ||3|| ਆਸਾ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) ੩:੫ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੬੪ ਪੰ. ੧੨ Raag Asa Guru Nanak Dev

You read a line or two, and you think you know what Gurbani is saying? The fact is, Gurbani says the vast majority of people are not distinct in the way that matters. Here, I'll give you a line, for free, that you might think supports you: ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਸਾਚੈ ਇਕੁ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ Maerai Prabh Saachai Eik Khael Rachaaeiaa || My True Lord God has staged a play. ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਜੇਹਾ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Koe N Kis Hee Jaehaa Oupaaeiaa || He has created no one like anyone else. ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ (ਮਃ ੩) (੧੩) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੦੫੬ ਪੰ. ੧੧ Raag Maaroo Guru Amar Das That, however, is not referring to lifestyle. Regarding that, Gurbani says: ਫਰੀਦਾ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਜਾਈ ਵਜਦੀ ਤੂੰ ਭੀ ਵਜਹਿ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ Fareedhaa Dhunee Vajaaee Vajadhee Thoon Bhee Vajehi Naal || Fareed, the world dances as it dances, and you dance with it as well. ਸੋਈ ਜੀਉ ਨ ਵਜਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਅਲਹੁ ਕਰਦਾ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੧੦॥ Soee Jeeo N Vajadhaa Jis Alahu Karadhaa Saar ||110|| That soul alone does not dance with it, who is under the care of the Lord God. ||110|| ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੧੦):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੩ ਪੰ. ੧੮ Salok Baba Sheikh Farid Gurbani states that the vast majority of the world are manmukhs, only a few are Gurmukhs: ਹੈਨਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਘਣੇ ਫੈਲ ਫਕੜੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੧੨॥ Hain Viralae Naahee Ghanae Fail Fakarr Sansaar ||12|| The Saints are few and far between; everything else in the world is just a pompous show. ||12|| ਸਲੋਕ ਵਾਰਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਧੀਕ (ਮਃ ੧) (੧੨):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੪੧੧ ਪੰ. ੯ Salok Vaaraan and Vadheek Guru Nanak Dev

Good point, what a loser. Hey, @mahandulai , how do you even know that there even is anybody on the other end of the Internet that you're using to connect with what you think is the Internet? For all you know, it's just GCHQ that's on the other end, there is no Bhforce, there is no JKVlondon, etc. How do you know that your mother is your mother and your father is your father? Have you done a DNA test? If so, did you do the DNA test yourself? Did you create the thermal cycler yourself? If not, how can you trust the result? Using the standard you used for our Gurus, it can only be concluded that you are a bas ta rd until you can conclusively prove to the contrary. Also, you'll have to replicate all of genetic science yourself.

Be serious and post something real, with some real arguments, man. "Yes", as in there are hundreds of millions of people ready to become Sikhs (real, practicing Sikhs, not just those that go to weddings and funerals)? What proof do you have of that? None, of course.

Wow, have you ever bothered to read Gurbani, or do you just spout your own random thoughts? Forget Gurbani, have you ever read Nitnem in your life? From Anand Sahib: ਭਗਤਾ ਕੀ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥ Bhagathaa Kee Chaal Niraalee || The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct. ਚਾਲਾ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ਭਗਤਾਹ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਿਖਮ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਲਣਾ ॥ Chaalaa Niraalee Bhagathaah Kaeree Bikham Maarag Chalanaa || The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path. ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮਃ ੩) (੧੪):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੮ ਪੰ. ੧੮ Raag Raamkali Guru Amar Das It's quite clear Guru Sahib is calling on us to be distinct.

OK, so you think there are hordes of people, hundreds of millions, ready to become Sikhs, take Amrit, wake up at 1am in the morning, do 3 hours of simran, 1 hour of nitnem, 1 hour of Sukhmani Sahib, then listen to Asa di Vaar, and then in the evening do Rehras, listen to Arti, keertan, and katha of Suraj Prakash, do Kirtan Sohila at night, daily do Sehaj Paath and practice keertan, and on the weekends help feed the poor and practice gatka ... But the only one thing preventing the Sikh panth from becoming hundreds of millions strong is they can't eat meat?

Exactly. It beggars belief that one and a half dozen Muslims could't find a single man among themselves to lead themselves ... they had to find a kaffir (unbeliever)?

And well done for exposing yourself as another racist bigot And you've exposed yourself as someone who can't respond to an argument. He said it's unusual for a bunch of Muslims to take a non-Muslim as a ringleader. You respond not with any rational argument whatsoever, but merely cry "racist, racist!"

Exactly this! Thank you. Bhai Mohan Singh is right that Dhaliwal was born in a family of devout Sikhs. But he failed to address (only lightly touched upon) the questions you raise. What he needed to do is not merely ask the family, but to go out and find out who his friends were. If all (or the vast majority) of his friends were Muslim, there should be little doubt that he was pressured at some point to recite the Shaddah (Muslim declaration of faith).

For someone that purports to be so much smarter than the "stupid racists" on this forum, you seem not to know what the word "literally" means. First I posted above that in the video, Bhai Mohan Singh is forced to admit that Dhaliwal's entire schooling, residence, and work as among Muslims. Muslims do not back down until they have converted you. Second, Dhaliwal is being shown as the ringleader. There's no way in the world that Muslims would accept a kaffir as a ringleader of their Muslim rape gang. These rapes are for jihad, not mere pleasure. You want to argue these points? Fine. But don't so "literally" no evidence was provided.

"Random passages"? It would be a random passage if someone were to home in on the one passage that seemed to support violence. Verse after verse after verse is not a "random passage". It is the very heart and essence of the Koran: That 1) Islam is not merely correct, but that 2) all other religions are false, and, crucially, 3) all other religions must be destroyed by force. "Anti-racism"? We're not talking about the racial features of the perps. Their skin color or nose shape, man! We're talking about the ideology of Islam. Islam's not a race. "I am not interested in a debate about religion" Yeah, because you'd lose easily.

Umm, no. Sikhism doesn't say to rape non-Sikh girls. Islam does (in a state of war, which the Muslims think they are in against the West). Therefore they were practicing Islam when they were raping those girls.

how do even know what guru said, back then. look. lets say guru is 100 percent right and perfect, how do you know, what you are listening to and reading, are his words.... Note that you didn't answer his question: that if a golden hand came out and saved you, would you still be doubting it. It seems the answer is yes. So why even bother to argue about whether something in the past was real or not. You wouldn't even accept God being real if he slapped you in the face with a golden hand.

Wow, you're just full of yourself, aren't you? How do you know anything? Ever ask yourself that? You want to apply skeptical methods to Sikhism and the Gurus. Ever done so to every other aspect of life, history, and historical persons? How do you know Jesus even existed? How do you know Plato existed? Or Socrates? That "his words" were his? Or Churchill's words were his? Or Dickens'? Or Shakespeare's? Or Chaucer's? Or Milton's? I'll bet that you just accept those 100%. I'll accept that you're a real skeptic if every time your teacher or professor starts to teach one of these books, you raise your hand and doubt the very existence of them.

Right. I agree. If you haven't spent your entire life in the Church, having been given justifications for the Devil and so on, then Sikhism aligns more with what people would naturally assume about metaphysics. For example, it's quite common to hear people in the 21st century to say "God is in all". But ... this is something the Abrahamics explicitly don't believe in.

If you're referring to 3HO creating parallel gurdwaras because they don't want to have to associate with icky Punjabis, I agree with you. Note: this is not to disparage Sikhs of white background. There are plenty of them that just attend whatever gurdwara is closest, without having to set up a separate gurdwara for whites and by whites.

Bro, I don't know what you're talking about. You're talking about the fact that 99% of Western societies are non-Sikh? Well, what else do you expect? Among other reasons, we only came to these countries in appreciable numbers about 30-40 years ago. So what do you want? 25% of England or the US to be Sikh? Why do you assume that people should want to become Sikhs all of a sudden? You seem to think that people have done a deep study of Sikhism, and then rejected it for various reasons. But why should they want to consider Sikhism in the first place? Plenty of people are just fine (according to their minds) as Christians, atheists, or whatever. Are you talking about people who are already those religions, or converts? Westerners are not converting to Islam and Buddhism in large numbers. Islam was spread (to a great extent) by the sword. So was Christianity (to an extent). OK, I agree here. We need to be more loving and unified. If we just did what Gurbani told us to do, then we would be.

I thought I had heard everything from you, but this takes the cake, question every single thing about our great Gurus, saints and Sikhs, taking the most negative view of them, but on the other hand taking the most positive and sympathetic view of a sick animal like Dhaliwal? Get a clue, loser. Oh, poor baby, got triggered because a girl dared to give you a proper response? What're you going to do about it? You should meet @jkvlondon at Hyde Park. She'd slap you silly with her sandals.

Oh, man, more stupidity: Nazis were doing what they were doing because of any ideology. So are jihadis. They're just following Sharia law, which tells them to kill infidels. The handful of perverts who are Sikhs who target girls are not doing so because of Sikh ideology. The huge numbers of Muslims who are doing the same is because of ideology: that they are waging war on non-Islamic societies, and therefore it is allowed to take non-Muslim females as war booty. Please understand the difference! The articles you cite: Daily Mail article is about someone named Charanjit Singh who targeted girls. Filth who do stuff like that should get the maximum punishment possible. The second article: There are 60 members of a gang, probably 59 Muslim (going by the names in the article), and yet of 3 men pictured, one is a Sikh! The one bad Sikh is 1.66% of the gang members, but by picturing him, it makes it look like Sikhs were 33% of the gang. Stupid media. The problem is not that Sikhs are targeting girls on an organized basis. The problem is merely that there are some bad apples, and those few individuals are being headlined by a media that doesn't bother to do the same for Muslims.

What are you even talking about? The vast majority of Sikhs are currently Punjabis, but that doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with Sikhism. The fact that we don't have a billion members spanning continents is not really our fault: we neither use the sword to rack up conversions (like the Muslims did, and are still doing, and the Christians did as well). Nor do we use financial incentives to make converts, like Christians. What's that even mean? And revered by who? Christians or others? Are you saying Guru Nanak Dev ji's message is not revered? You mean to say that bowing before Guru Sahib's words is not revering the message? Also "Christ" is not his name. "Jesus" is his name. Wow. Ever read Gurbani? ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥ Aval Aleh Noor Oupaaeiaa Kudharath Kae Sabh Bandhae || First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings. ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥ Eaek Noor Thae Sabh Jag Oupajiaa Koun Bhalae Ko Mandhae ||1|| From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1|| ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੩) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੪੯ ਪੰ. ੧੯ Raag Parbhati Bhagat Kabir ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ ॥ Parathhaae Saakhee Mehaa Purakh Boladhae Saajhee Sagal Jehaanai || Great men speak the teachings by relating them to individual situations, but they are common to the whole world. ਸੋਰਠਿ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੨) ਸ. (੩) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੬੪੭ ਪੰ. ੧ Raag Sorath Guru Amar Das Secondly, as I stated above, it's not our fault that we don't have entire various races of people as Sikhs, because we didn't use the sword to convert them. What do Westerners care if some Sikhs want a separate country? There have been all sorts of referendums/attempts in Western countries to secede. Two referendums in Quebec. Peaceful. People did not start killing French Canadians because they want a separate country. A referendum in Scotland failed. Scotsmen living in England were not targeted by Englishmen. A separation referendum (Brexit) passed in the UK. There's a movement to secede from the US in Vermont, Texas, and California. None of these people concerned that people "won't like them" or that they will be "wary of their presence".

What Sikhs are going after young girls (in appreciable numbers)? "They" continue to go after girls?? What are you even talking about. As if all Sikh men are targeting girls. I do agree that even 1 Sikh doing something evil is bad, but, come on, don't make it out as if "they" are all rapists. "Murder in drug wars" Yeah, that's bad and I condemn it, but, again, Sikhs aren't doing that in appreciable numbers. Also, the fools that are doing this aren't killing (AFAIK) non-Sikhs, but rather stupid drug dealing manmukh "Sikhs". "idiots in music videos" Yeah, that's stupid, but what do non-Sikhs in Western countries care about Sikhs in music videos?

With all due respect to Bhai Mohan Singh, who is one of the greatest Sikhs of the UK, he has not really refuted the allegations about "Amere" or whoever being a Muslim. The presenter, Sunny the victim girl, and Bhai Mohan Singh all say that raising the question of what religion the perpetrator was is pointless because it takes the focus off the victims, and it doesn't matter. But it does matter, because that's what can allow us to prevent future problems. If the perp was a Muslim (of some sort), then it means we need to be wary of Muslims. If he was a Sikh, then we need to put our own house in order. What Bhai Mohan Singh said doesn't refute the allegations of him being a Muslim. He said that the guy comes from a Sikh family, his dada was a Sikh. Which is not to do with the perp. That just means he comes from a Sikh background, not what he was when he committed the crimes. Second, he says his wife was an amritdhari Sikh, and children Sikh. As stated above, his wife did not know what he was up to. Third, he stated that the perp took Amrit. This is so horrendous that this criminal violated and disgraced the Amrit granted by Guru Gobind Singh ji. However (and I don't know this), some people are saying he did this as a cover. But most importantly, Bhai Mohan Singh grants that the perp's entire schooling, residence, and work was with and among Muslims. And there you have it: this man, from his very childhood, came under heavy Muslim influence. And you know very well that Muslims don't just stop at "Oh, you're a Sikh, cool." No, they wear you down until you recite the Shahada (Muslim declaration of faith). The fact is that this man's entire circle of friends was with Muslims. The presenter never touched on the question of what the man's thinking must have been, and how it was totally Islamic. That's the point. And that's why people are calling this criminal a Muslim. He was as much Sikh as the killers of Massa Rangar, who posed as Muslims to gain access to behead him, were Muslims.

I do admit, bro, that the Namdharis have preserved many rehits, including that of naam simran, Dasam Bani, stringed instrument kirtan, etc. But the "sacred" fire is one where I would disagree and simply say that some sort of non-Sikh practice has crept into Namdhari maryada.