BhForce

Based on certain Internet postings, I think there are a few people in the AKJ that think that that jatha is supposed to be "missionaries with keskis and chimtas". I hope the Singhs there use the information in this post to confront such people and get them to admit that they are opposed to the traditional basis of both that jatha and the wider Khalsa panth. No Sikh mahapurkh has ever questioned Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. Singhs in other jathas and groups like GNNSJ, Bhai Jasbir Singh Singh Khanna's group, and others should also identify and be aware of missionary-style advocates within their own groups.

m16, are we really going to have go through this again? What does the man have to do, die to get some respect? While it's true Swaranjit Singh did do seva (and I applaud that), I thought it was a pretty bad move on his part to support what Nihangs call a sirgum (roda) singers attacking normal Sikh saints (as opposed to bad babas). It backfired on him when the Ludhiana kand happened. He was quite wise not to say anything after that. On the other hand ... we have m16 still bringing opprobrium on the Sant because he didn't call for declaring war against the Government of India. Look, I just would like to get a declaration that if S. Dhadrianwale were to declare war on India, that everybody faulting him for not doing so would sign up, and would take the next flight out to Delhi International Airport to join the fight.

I am for unanimity and oppose unilateral changes which increase divisiveness for no pressing reason. To change the status quo should require unanimous consent, and that has been the Khalsa way. The current Nanakshahi calendar was implemented with a simple majority vote. As I said above, the seasonal shift problems perceived by Mr. Purewal in the current calendar would occur over thousands of years, so it was not a pressing problem. why are you calling it like that? i have not seen you calling bikrami calendar as 'brahmani calendar' which it rightfully is. The reason I called the calendar developed by Mr. Purewal "the Purewali calendar" is, as I explained above, his calendar is not the only one which has taken Guru Nanak Ji's birth year as year zero. If you look in old books and magazine, sometimes you'll find a reference to Nanakshahi dates and also Samvat Khalsa (Khalsa year). So for Mr. PS Purewal to claim the "Nanakshahi" designation only for his calendar isn't quite right. And like I mentioned before, there have been even a couple of Purewali calendars. They printed one, and then they changed it, this is just to be clear. As for Bikrami, I don't think there is any other calendar based on King Bikramjit. apne, I'm not really opposed to a modified calendar if that's what the panth wants to do on a united basis. And I've already acknowledged certain problems in the calculation of dates in the Bikrami calendar. I do, however, want to oppose certain modes of argument being advanced by advocates of Mr. PS Purewal's calendar. Is the argument "What has 'Brahmani Calendar' done for Sikhs" supposed to be a general format for reasoning? A calendar is a method for reckoning time, just as the metre is used for reckoning distance, and litres for capacity. As everyone knows, the French came up with metres, and litres, and kilograms. So, if we use the same units of measure, are we going to be absorbed into the Christians? In Paris, France, there is a piece of metal which is called theinternational kilogram prototype at the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures. It is the basis for measure of mass on this Earth. Every country has a copy of that kilogram mass. In turn, each state or province has its own copy. Each state in India (where most of the Sikh population lives) has a copy of the kilogram, and each district has its own copy with the department of weights and measures. These kilogram masses were prepared by Christians and Hindus. If they had a hand in preparing a standard for measurement, are Sikhs going to be absorbed into them if they also use it? Finally, the Bikrami calendar is not based on some Vedic event like the coming of the Aryans, the descent of Shiv, or something like that. It is based on an Indian king called Bikramjit. Granted, people involved in doing the calendar calculations may be Hindus, but the how is the calendar itself Hindu? In conclusion, if the panth wants to go for a reformed calendar, or a totally new one, that's fine, but let's not do it on the basis of ill-founded thinking.

Thanks for this post. According to the first letter, Kala Afghana's books are being used as course material for the Gurmat Gian Missionary College in Javaddi, Ludhiana! They couldn't find a single other Gurmat writer to use as their course material?

This was actually someplace by Hazur Sahib, not Harimandar Sahib. The user who uploaded this said "Look how illegal acts took place inside golden temple. These Jatts are inhuman they kill anyone like they killed Indira Gandhi Ji and Now Sant Ramanand Ji. Never go to their <banned word filter activated> place." Another commenter says "After watching this video cried all day and feel betrayed by my Sikh brothers and elders! Will never go to the Golden Temple ever again! They tell you one thing and do the opposite! Can see why people are changing their religion and becoming Radhaswami at least they don't put animal blood on a holy book!" That is so blatantly messed up, I hardly know where to start. First, let's leave aside the whole controversy about eating meat. This thread is about the ridiculous claim on Youtube that this is taking place in Darbar Sahib, etc. Keep on topic please. I just have to laugh at how these people are calling the killing of a goat barbaric, yet they have nothing to say about the killing of thousands by the Indian army in 1984, and that whole decade. The blindness is just amazing. Second, what is illegal about killing a goat?! I'm not preaching the killing of goats, I'm simply saying there's nothing in the laws of India (or of any other country) against killing goats, for crying out loud! Amazing how the killing of a goat is called inhuman, yet the killing of humans (by Indira Ghandi) is supposed to be humanitarian? Look at this false sense of their outrage. You cried all day? For a goat? What a joke. If this youtube user lives in India, is there not meat all around him? What kind of vegetarian paradise does he live in that does not have animals being constantly killed? There are plenty of goats being killed and eaten all the time by non-Sikhs in India. Here's a picture of a big goat meat market in Dehli. Did this person who wept all day over a goat ever shed a single tear for the women and children killed by Indira Gandhi? These are exactly the type of bloodthirsty people who are vegetarians for show that Guru Nanak Dev Ji skewered in Gurbani.

987, With all due respect, I don't think you have to do this. You're just learning, and as has been stated above, get santhia or read teekas of Guru Granth Sahib. After that, you can proceed to reading Dasam Granth. At your current stage, you don't have the background to be able to evaluate or even appreciate Dasam Granth. Again, no offense, but as has been stated above, the normal order for learning bani (followed through the whole panth) is Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and then Dasam Granth. Skipping all these steps and going straight into listening to anti-Dasam Granth videos and then feeling as if you have to test their veracity, is, I feel, a mistake. Taking too large of a step sets one up for a fall. With incomplete knowledge, one is vulnerable to manipulation. For example (not that it matters, but just as an example), spaces left in the Kartarpuri Bir (prepared by 5th Guru) were not in the spots where 9th Guru's bani was revealed. This is apparent from Prof. Sahib Singh's book Aad Bir Bare. Again, this small point doesn't really matter, but a misunderstanding about some other point might be truly misleading. It's really quite pathetic that some Dasam Granth opponents have been reduced to saying that Hindu printers added some material to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. First of all, this is disproven by the hand-written manuscripts. Second, why would Hindus want to encourage Sikhs to bear arms? The late Baldev Singh had alleged that the British created the Dasam Granth. That, again, doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Out of all the colonies the British ruled (America, India, Kenya, etc.) did they ever encourage the people they ruled to bear arms? Why would they want the Sikhs to bear arms? As you may or may not know, Guru Granth Sahib Ji has a great deal of (superficial) similarity to many Hindu writings. But it's the differences which are important. Chasing down conspiracy theories is, really, a waste. I think you've learned a good bit in this discussion thread, and you should just go forward with santhia at this point. I hope you make quick progress in learning bani.

I think you know the answer: The stage secretary is trying to promote himself as some kind of poet litterateur. Then, in the langar, the bhenji's will come up to him and say, "That was a great speech, bhaji!" There's a lot of poetry in the world, and not all of it matches up with the philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib. If people want to seem like they know a lot, don't quote Urdu poetry, quote Bhai Nand Lal Ji in Persian.

This was before the Ludhiana kand, in which the singers were nowhere to be found and in which S. Dhadrianwale was within inches of his being shot. I don't really think anybody's bothering to big up Babbu Mann anymore and those that did so prior to Ludhiana have wisely remained quiet on the subject.

Yes, it's true, like I noted above, the stuff about Kharag Singh, etc. is nowhere to be found in Hindu granths.

As a long term option, I think we should attempt to bring Muslim Punjabis to their senses. (60% of all Punjabis are Muslim.) We can target them by satellite TV transmissions. Once that's done, most of Pakistan can be incorporated.

Good question, but I can't answer it. It was added by puratan Singhs, though, and not by the Committee, afaik. Anyways, I don't think it would be prudent to mess with standard to subtract or add compositions, even if they are of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Yes! this is exactly what my thoughts were. even if one baani was written by dasam pita, surely its a great boon for us sikhs! The funny thing is, the opponents try to pretend like it's some great revelation that portions of it are related to old literature. Yet the Dasam Granth explicitly states just that at the end of Krishavatar: ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗਉਤ ਕੀ ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat [Puran] in the vernacular; It's not like it's a big secret or anything. But the important part is the next line which explains the reason for the translation: ਅਵਰ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਧਰਮ ਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ ॥੨੪੯੧॥ O Lord ! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491. So, the reason for putting the Krishavtar to pen was to encourage dharam yudh (war for righteousness). if there wasn't much collusion why was there a sodak committee (for knowledge's sake) When printing presses were being set up in Punjab, the options were either to present a standard version to the print shops, or to ban printing by anyone other than Sikh authorities. The first option was taken then, and the second is being attempted to be taken now (at least regarding Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Bhai sahib, is this because of the sant/sipahi concept? with guru granth sahib providing sant sikhiya and dasam granth providing sipahi sikhiya? Or is this just your personal opinion.. Please clarify Yes, you can say it's because of sant/sipahi. Bhagti comes first, and if you don't know what the dharam is, there's no point in trying to defend dharam. For example, although Dasam Granth talks about God, it does not talk about Satguru in the same way that Guru Granth Sahib Ji does. Because Dasam Granth is not meant to replace Guru Granth Sahib Ji, this is not a problem. Since the rehitnamas state that Guru Gobind Singh has stated the Dasam Granth to be secondary to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, obviously we have to start with Guru Granth Sahib Ji when studying our religion. Yes, it's my personal opinion, but no, it's not just my personal opinion, but rather a standard view in the Panth. As user jassa states in this thread: no one is going to give you santhia of Dasam Granth if you don't have a firm grip on Guru Granth Sahib. So that's where you start.

Anybody want to write 41 advices for Sikh brides?

Ironically the acceptance of the Nanakshahi calendar could have been a step towards a seperate identity. At least then sikhs could have said , "we sikhs also have our own seperate calendar". coulda used it as another arguing point against the constitution stoopid article 25. Well, the Purewali (aka Nanakshahi) calendar is in force now, and it hasn't helped getting rid of article 25.

A few thoughts: 1. It's certainly within the power of the panth to decide on minor administrative matters like dates on which to celebrate a Gurpurb. 2. But such a decision should only be made be made with complete agreement. The decision for Nanakshahi calendar wasn't made unanimously. The calendar had been help up for a long time, finally the SGPC just took a majority vote of the calendar committee. 3. The use of the word "Nanakshahi" is somewhat unfair. The word was in use before Purewal's calendar was put into place to simply denote years from the year of Guru Nanak Ji's birth based on the Bikrami calendar. The use of Guru Nanak Ji's name for a calendar devised by Mr Purewal is unfortunate. It should be called the Purewali calendar. 4. The fact that the Bikrami dates are decided on a non-deterministic basic by Pandits in UP is indeed a problem. So let's not pretend that all is fine and well with Bikrami. But it could have been address with mere reform of that calendar. 5. There was no rush to get a new calendar in. They could have taken up to 10 years, even. What was the rush? Given that we have so many divisions from the last 50 years, did we really need another one like this at this time? 6. The claim that a different calendar will give Sikhs a unique identity is farcical. The fact is, no one uses this calendar for their daily business, unlike Muslims who do use Hijri calendar. The reason is because there have been many Nanakshahi calendars, and now there's going to be a slightly revised one. No one is going to run his affairs according to a calendar that can be changed on a committee's whim.

Is this from Suraj Prakash, if so, what chapter and rut, etc.? Thanks.

987, welcome to Sikhsangat No, the Mass Ranghar episode was actually the reverse. It was in one collection, and the question was, should it be split up into a couple of pothis? It is said the victorious killers of Massa Ranghar said no, so that's what was decided. As for old recensions of Dasam Granth, why don't you read this thread, and then come back here if you have more questions. The thread below has a link to a picture of a recension which is said to have been compiled at Anandpur: Most Puratan Birs Of Dasam Granth The current, standard printing of Dasam Granth is compiled as per the Sodhak Committee (which met for a long time during the end of the 19th century at the Akal Takhat), and they edited a standard version of Dasam Granth for printing purposes. They based this based on various hand-written recensions (see above). You can read the report on the Internet. I'll post the link if I find it. Very much truth, yet they miss the entire point. OK let's call 2/3 the same as in the Hindu granths. It's the 1/3 that's important. The 2/3 merely describes the Avatars. It's in the 1/3 that: Guru Gobind Singh ji clarifies that the Avatars are not God The Avatars only had limited power as compared to God People should view weapons as the devi, and Guruji encourages people to take up arms instead of being cowards and waiting for a devi Shows the real status of the Avatars as being subject to Lust and Anger, etc., so how could they be God? Add additional material which is not found in the Hindu granths, and in which we could discern some meaning if we put our minds to it. For example, in Krishnavtar, Krishan is not portrayed as the hero, rather a character named Kharag Singh is. Yet, as powerful as he is, he is later destroyed by Lust. The message for us seems obvious. Also, in Krishnavtar, there are a lot of Muslim names, which is anachronistic since there were no Muslims in India then. Some interpret this as related to the help that the hill rajas and the Rajputs gave to the Muslims. Finally, in Krishanavtar, both sides of the battle have "Sikh"-type names ("Singh"). Some interpret this as predicting the fact of Sikhs constantly fight among themselves. There was a book published a while back with some advanced deep meanings of Dasam Granth. If I find it, I'll post info. There's no question our scholars and gianis need to delve deeper into Dasam Granth for producing better, more detailed, and more symbolic commentaries. It's not really an issue of printing presses because Dasam Granth is present in hand-written form. I will grant that Hindus running a printing press (of which there were plenty in Lahore) will not pay as much attention to spellings as learned Sikhs will. Hence, they could easily look over misspellings which can change the meanings. The rehitnamas written by various Singhs show that: Guru Gobind Singh Ji was asked by the Singhs to put Dasam bani into Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but Guru Ji refused, saying Guru Granth Sahib was in the higher position, but Dasam Bani was merely "my leela" (my play). And that the Dasam Granth is the "chota" (smaller) granth. But Sikhs are asked to memorise bani from both granths. No problem. In general don't start reading Dasam Granth until you've read Guru Granth Sahib Ji a few times. If you don't know the meaning of something, just put it aside until you're able to know. Yes. The first part of Zafarnama is purely spiritual. It just talks about God and his greatness. This is basically like Jaap Sahib or Akal Ustat or portions of Sukhmani Sahib. Secondly, Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji hold that true spirituality means that you actually take action in the world against the bad and for the good and the poor. So, in that sense, it is spiritual because it is encouraging us to not flinch in the face of tyranny, which is basically a test for whether we have moh (attachment) for this mortal body and fear dying. A truly spiritual person does not fear dying and does not fear speaking truth to the powerful. But you're right that Dasam Granth is not a granth with a uniform kind of writing. Rather, there are many different kinds of writings with different purposes. Not recognising this fact is the cause of many of the Dasm Granth opponents' confusion. Of course, the recension referred to above does not contain Zafarnama since it was written after leaving Anandpur. The fact that Dasam Granth also contains some diverse writings (including the mundane) might be why Guru Sahib did not give GurGaddi to Dasam Granth. This does not reduce its authenticity, however. Well about why we're in distress: I guess you can basically trace it back to not following Guru's hukum, in one way or another, at one time or another. Some trace it to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, some trace it earlier than that. We can't have Guru's grace if we don't follow hukum. But that's a long topic. The issue has not gone unsolved for 300 years. It was first raised by Macauliff, who didn't have full knowledge, and then spread to a few English-associated Sikhs, who have been preaching it ever since. The reason the common Sikh is just hearing about this is that the common Sikh has no knowledge whatsoever about his religion. Forget Dasam Granth, he doesn't have a clue what is in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This, in a sense, is also related to the fall of the Sikh Raj and our general decline. Therefore, some troublemakers have found that it's easy to stir up trouble by talking about matters that most Sikhs have no knowledge of. Then some other Sikhs (well meaning), take the anti-Dasam Granth preaching to heart and start thinking that the zenith of Sikhi is just spewing bile against it.

Agree with what matheen said. By the way, "nindanyog" isn't usually used to mean "somebody that nindia should be done of", but rather "comdemnable". The most used instance of the word is in Punjabi newspapers when reprinting some political party's press release commenting on some other party. Also, it seems to be used more for acts and policies than for people. I don't think normal people use that word. Most people don't say such-and-such of a policy is "nindanyog". They just say they don't like that policy. Finally, the people don't necessarily literally mean that some policy should be slandered. It's more of a turn of phrase. Like saying "I'm afraid so-and-so isn't in the office." You're not really "afraid", but you say that anyway.

If pro-Dasam Granth sangat removes funding for SC, the only ones left funding SC will be those who haven't a clue about Dasam Granth. How much will SC be responsive to Dasam Granth issues then?

OK, so if there's no press, no statement by the Sant, nor a statement or any other confirmation at all from Singhs associated with him, I guess it didn't happen. Puratan, where did you hear this news from?

ਨਿੰਦਣਯੋਗ is sort of a formal word. If you just want to tell him he's a lowlife, you can call him a ਕਮੀਨਾ (kameena: lowlife, lowly). ਓਇ ਕਾਮੀ ਕਮੀਨਿਆ!

ਨਿੰਦਣਯੋਗ Nindan Yog Ninda = slander, condemnation Yog= worthy Nindanyog = worthy of condemnation Variously, slander or condemnation. You'll often hear people like me say that "It's not nindia if it's true!" Maybe. ਨਿੰਦਾ ਭਲੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਕੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਕਰੰਨਿ ॥ It is not good to ninda anyone, but the foolish manmukhs still do it. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=756&L=2&id=32465 According the system of justice prevailing in the courts of the next world, nindia of Satguru is punished like serial murderers: ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਜਮਕੰਕਰਾ ਨੋ ਆਖਿ ਛਡਿਆ ਏਸੁ ਤਪੇ ਨੋ ਤਿਥੈ ਖੜਿ ਪਾਇਹੁ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਹਾ ਮਹਾਂ ਹਤਿਆਰਿਆ ॥ You're the only one who can decide whether to do nindia or not.

When reading or listening to Anand Sahib, keep in mind that Guru Amar Das ji found Satguru at an advanced age (when most people are grandfathers). (Yes, I realise Guru Amar Das was destined to be Guru from the beginning, but the point is to be an example for us.) The point is, it's like finding anand (bliss) after wandering for so long, decades, in fact. After you find Satguru, it's just pure Anand. It's like a kid gushing to his mother about a new toy, or a girl talking to her mother: ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ Mum, it's all anand after I found the Satguru. The difference being that Satguru is an anand that does not go away. Anand Sahib is not to be approached as yet another big paath we have to do, so just to it quickly and get it over with. Rather, it's an expression of joy.

Why restrict yourself to site members? Just strike up a conversation where you're doing santhia. Good luck. By the way, if you're going to Ludhiana, please do meet people and get the inside scoop on the Ludhiana incident and post it to this site. Thanks.

If you want a real quick summary: Guru Granth Sahib Ji is mainly but not only concerned with Bhagti. Dasam Granth is to a significant extent (but definitely not only) concerned with Shakti.

satpungasingh, What year did the Budda Dal do GurGaddi ceremony for Dasam Guru Ji's Granth?