Ranjeet01

So we have one section of Punjabi society that are having less children due to affluence and this has an impact in the fertility replacement rates for Sikhs. We have another section of Punjabi society that is poor and are not receiving help and therefore accept help from Xtian evangelist groups with bribes and other enticements. We have the claim of the majority of the youth (I expect would cross all social classes) are drug dependent, the ones who are not are the ones that have emigrated.

Ravidassi is not exactly part of Hindutva, they do not claim to be hindus either. They are not claiming to be non-Sikhs because they are being oppressed by upper caste Sikhs, they are actually quite emboldened and empowered because this particular group considers themselves to be better than Sikhs and feel they got what they needed out of Sikhi and want to strike out on their own. Ironically, they have shown themselves to being even bigger casteists. It is quite strange because in a funny way, they have shown the way for SCs and harijans in the rest of India how to bypass Brahminism without having to convert to Xtianity or Islam.

If there is a decline in Sikhs with a mass exodus of Sikhs, I am sure that it would not go unnoticed by the Hindu Punjabi. If Sikhs leave, the Hindu Punjabi would follow suit.

My grandfather told me that in pre-partition, 90 out of 100 villages in Kapurthala district were muslims and where Sikhs were a majority in the villages, Muslims constituted a large minority (up to 40 per cent).

Technically speaking there are no caste based Gurdwaras. Ramgharia is not really a caste, it is the name of a fort that is related to Jassa Singh Ramgharia (I think) that Tarkhans who came from East Africa have affiliated themselves with. The caste domination is at the commitee level not necessarily at the Sangat level.You will find Sikhs from different backgrounds going to gurdwaras that are commitee dominated by other castes.

But did the poorer non-Sikhs embrace Sikhi before Anand Karaj or did they did they do this after. This also makes the assumption that only single people embraced Sikhi.

The migration of Sikhs out of India in my opinion is the highest in post millenium than it has been in any other era. The inward migration of non-Sikhs from other states also plays a big factor. One question no body asks is whether the native Hindu Punjabi population in decline?

Communities have always segregated themselves one way or another. What is stopping one person from one caste going to a Gurdwara that is commitee controlled by another caste. I think a lot of this use of caste is a load of whole huey that somehow this causing a decline. A lot of people think that the rise of the Deras us due to caste discrimination. How does the average poor Sikh from a disadvantaged social standing get shut out of the Gurdwara? Does the Granthi decline Ardaas,does the Giani decline to do Akhand Path, does the Granthi prevent them from having a Siropa. If being lower caste is what attracts people to Deras then why do people from upper castes go to Deras also. If Hindutva thinks that by pushing Sikhs into a minority is some great strategy, they are pretty foolish bunch. They lose their "sword arm of India".

This is just pure conjecture, do Hindus really get married in Mandirs. They for the most part get married in wedding halls and hotels with a pandit. I think the Pandits are probably more desperate which they would be more keen for accepting these weddings, yet they are more scornful of two hindus from different castes getting married.

Sikhs have always married into their own castes. Even though it should not be a consideration when marrying, Sikhs still did it, so I am not sure this is the cause of the decline in population.

Is there any evidence that couples from mixed relationships that have been declined Anand Karaj have had got married in Mosques, churches and Mandirs and the Sikh partner no longer goes to the Gurdwara and has changed their religion.

It would be interesting to see the ratio of Non Sikh male to Sikh Female Anand Karaj's in comparison to Sikh Male to Non-Sikh female Anand Karaj's and weddings in general. Someone mentioned about Polish/East European girls marrying Sikh/Punjabi males but there is a big difference in one factor. The vast majority of Sikh/Punjabi males marrying Polish/East European girls are fresh off the boat Punjabi/Sikh males who are looking to become permanent. There is probably some spark of attraction between a Polish girl who has never seen a brown person before and therefore sees the boy as exotic and a Punjabi boy who wants to get a gori and lived in an all brown environment all his life. I think we need to compare like for like with British born Sikh males and British born Sikh females. My guesstimate would be there are far more British born Sikh females marrying non-Sikh than vica versa, but I could be wrong. I agree with other posts that it can be a point of concern because the children go towards the father's lineage and this is a natural instinctive understanding. However, I have known of a few Sikh girls marry white English males and they have embraced Sikhi far more than the girls ever will. Their offspring also go to the local Sikh School so all is not necessarily lost in terms of loss of the Sikh heritage.

These types are mere sociopaths and have no conscience in their wrong doing. What these types do care about is "showing face" and their wallets. This is where I think these types need to be punished. They need to be publicly outed so their bhesti is done and the Gurdwaras should be fined in the tens of thousands, and commitee members personally should be fined as well. Ultimately I think there needs to be structural changes made in types of governing institutions that run gurdwarae.

Me thinks that there is definitely some sibling rivalry/jealousy from Sunny.

Let's just hope this resolution is followed through rather than mere lip service.

The Hindutva types blame the Buddhists because they introduced ahimsa. Personally, I think it has been the popularity of Chanakya.

Then the solution is simple. If they are running Gurdwarae as businesses and consider the Sangat as punters. Take the punters away from them. I think it may time to build alternative gurdwarae that may serve the needs. It does not need to be extravagant gurdwarae. There are a lot of empty office blocks that can be leased or bought. You can have proper classrooms for Gurmat lessons etc.

It is the generally thought that the older generation has wisdom and experience. Being from Punjab, they are very well versed in the art of politics and dynasty building. It comes from the environment they were brought up in. I have come to the realisation that India is the land of the billion hustlers. The rapper 50 cent talks about being from the ghetto and learning to hustle, the Subcontinent is one giant ghetto. They leave Punjab because there is too much competition in the art of hustling and they cannot empire build so they leave for virgin lands where they are given those opportunities. The problem with their politicking in Gurdwarae is that it is done to maintain their fiefdoms. If they are grooming the next generation such as their children then we would need to find alternatives.

Freedom of speech is a two way process, it does not flow one way.

Duly noted. I am aware, just find the logic strange of where one would expect the support to come from.

What I find very strange in the UK is that people on the right of the political spectrum are more sympathetic to Sikh causes, but the left which claims to prioritise diversity and multiculturalism, tolerance and inclusion are seemingly anti-sikh. What you realise is that these types are more intolerant than the folks on the right end of the political spectrum. I have noticed that the types to defend the likes of Bobby Friction are the camp feminine beta-male Sikh journalists and these "you - go girl, feisty, stroppy" punjabi females who claim it is all misogyny with all the usual verbal gymnastics. If they came across real misogynists such as the Pakistani grooming gangs they would be on their knees licking their boots in two minutes.

Let them, the more they cook their masala, the bigger hole they dig for themselves. I like to get straight to the Mirch.

When Andy Gray and Richard Keys of Sky Sports were caught off air making sexist jokes about the female assistant referee they were sacked. When Rodney Marsh (formally professional football player and pundit) made a joke relating the 2002 Tsunami to the Toon Army (Newcastle FC) he was sacked. These are white working class guys, not very PC, the lefty media were all over to get these guys fired. When Bobby Friction who is employed by an institution that promotes the PC left liberal causes but who is anti-sikh then suddenly all these left wing PC types are quick to defend him. If these were muslims he offended he would have much worse done to him. If this guy is not reprimanded, he would think he has gotten away with it and try again.

If they still do not want to after Anand Karaj it makes a mockery. Give them the choice, if it is still no, no Anand Karaj but keep the door open if they do want to take Maharaj ji. They will still go to Gurdwarae for Akhand Paths, Sukhmani Sahib Paths, Anand Karajs, Baisakhi, Bandi Chor Divas and Gurpurabs.

The non Sikh spouse should be given a course to understand Anand Karaj. If they willing to become Sikh, then no problem have the Anand Karaj. If they don't agree with it, have a registry marriage. Simple.