JagsawSingh

I don't think thats what MisterSingh meant, Ranjeet. I think MisterSingh would be interested to know if the normal set of circumstnces is to prevail. The normal set of circumstances can best be summed up with the Southall Gurdwara, i.e the £20 million Gurdwara that looks more like a £4 million Gurdwara. It cost upwards of £20 million because most of the money went to a firm of architects who have apparently, believe it or not, designed a state of the art beautifull building using ancient sikh architecture as inspiration. Err....and by sheer coincidence the white architect of that firm is married to the Sikh daughter of one of the committe members that brokered the deal. Happy days for all. You see, that is the way all these new Gurdwara building projects work. Punjabis don't have a word for 'conflict of interest'. Committe members with building firms, plumbing businesses, sons who are solicitors and daughters married to white architects are all quids in. Happy days for all. of those who are in the committee.

My nanke's side are all former soldiers from the far east (mostly Malaysia and Singapore but also a sprinkling of Fiji). Dad's side also were one of the lucky one's that left the army from Singapore and settled in what was at that time the western world's largest Sikh community; the Imperial Valley of California. Its really interesting how nothing much remains of that original Californian Sikh settlement now except a few Mexican-Punjabi families as my family, along with the other Sikhs, soon left that valley and started farming in the Yuba City area of northern California. One thing they all had in common though was that the original pioneers were all ex-soldiers. Same with the New Zealand and Australia settlers in the late 1800's. All former soldiers, as are their banana plantation descendants today in Woolgoolga. In fact I do wish more research would be done into the Australia history because anyone thats been into the pends of Doaba will testify how so many of the really old large houses in the pend have the word 'TELIA" engraved on them along with a date around the late 1800s (colloquial Punjabi for 'Australia'). And then closer to home here in what have always been our 2 main Sikh towns: Southall and Gravesend. Both are as a result of Wolf's rubber factory in Southall and the paper factory in Gravesend who's owners were rich industrialists who served with Sikhs in the army and as a result went out of their way to recruit Sikhs. My point is then, that one should never forget the one sole reason that Sikhs find themselves all over the world, and that reason is the brave service our forefathers gave in the British Army. The fact that many of you have come after these pioneers already laid the foundation so had a ready made community to easily settle yourselves into is no reason for you to forget those ex-soldier pioneers. Without our brave association with the British Army none of you would be sitting here today. All of you would be suffering the in the cesspit of Badal's Punjab.

I'm a jatt and no one in my family and extended family drinks alcohol...ever. Every one in my family wears a dastar and, because unlike bhatras we understand that females are human too and thus also Sikh, all the women in my family wear dastars too. No one in my family has ever consumed the flesh of dead animals. No flesh of dead animals has ever once entered our house. No one in my family has ever eaten eggs. My community...the one you dismiss as 'useless' is the one that built a Khalsa empire stretching all the way into central Asia. My community....the one you dismiss as 'nothing more than sharabi bhangra dancers'....is the one that the greatest military leader of the century was from. My family clan...the one you dismiss as 'pendus'...are the misl clan that ransacked Delhi, raised the nishan sahib over the Red Fort and in the name of the Khalsa ruled the whole of India by default. My community...the one you dismiss as nothing more than whisky-shinsky culture....is the ones that 150 years ago laid our Sikh foundations in the farmlands of California, western Canada, Woolgoolga in Australia etc. Nobody in my famy and extended family puts up photographs of our dead fathers and grandfathers, puts garlands around them, and certainly doesn't do pooja on them even if we did start having photographs of dead people up on the wall. No female in my family, extended family and community has women who cover their faces in pardah around men of the family. No female in my family, extended family and community has been denied the chance to study. Every female in my family, extended family and community has been actively encouraged to adhere to the Sikh work ethic and work hard for a living. As I stated before, the Sikh community in the UK has, over the course of the past 60 years, deliberately ignored the disgusting un-sikh practices of this weird group called the bhatras because of a fear of being labelled casteist. The practices have been ignored because there has been total seperation between the bhatras and all the other sikhs. The bhatras have remained isolated from the wider Sikhs and thus have been allowed to continue with their alien traditions. As a result, thousands of our Sikhs sisters belonging to this backward group have had to endure a life of utter dispair. In comparison, the muslim girls of Bradford have had a much better life because their culture values the sciences so they have been encouraged to study. The history books, such as Denzil's, list the bhatras as an itinerant (gypsy) community of vagabonds (beggars and street charlatans...i.e fortune tellars) who occupy the loweest position in Sikh society after having arrived in the Punjab from central India with the onset of Sikhism. 200 years after Denzil said the bhatras live isolated away from mainstream Sikhi as others do not wish to assocciate with them nothing much has changed at all. It is today just as it always was. Your ways are as srange and offensive to Sikhs as they have always been but your group's disgusting views about women will no longer be tolerated in this modern age. The wider Sikhs must rise above the fear of being labelled casteist and deal with this weird little grouping called the bhatras once and for all.

W-T-F ??? :wow: Not being funny but thats the weirdest thing about the whole story. I mean everything else this young man does just seems so normal compared to the fact that his vocational ambition is to become a masseur !!!! Personally, if I was his parents, I would have been relieved he was actually taking an interest in a girl rather than a boy. I think the warning signs are there.

Jagsaw comes from a Sikh family. In Sikh families, a female is considered a human, not a dog to be controlled with a leash. There are what you call "slappers" among every community but your solution of keeping sikh women covered up, locked indoors, chained to the cooker and denied education is of course a solution to them running off with a muslim boy. But the fact that you can't even see how wrong that it is and how against the very basic principles of Sikhi it is is testament to just how far out of touch the bhatras are with actual Sikhi values. Most of the jatt sikh females I know wear a dastar, master shastar vidya, naam simran and teach Sikh boys about true Sikhi. Your eyes however only see filth because you are wallowing in filth yourself. What is that supposed be ? A badly written gibbersh sort of threat ? While the bhatra females have been locked and covered up at home for the last 40 years, amongst the other communities the females have gone out on streets, fought running battles with facists and the police and changed British history forever. For example, in 1979 in Southall, it was people like my mum and aunties that clocked off early at work and went onto the Broadway to confront the right wing nationalist party the National Front and physically fight running street battles with them and the 10000 police that were drafted in to protect the racists. For example, while the bhatra females were kept covered up indoors it was the Gujarati Hindu women of Brent working at Grunwicks who changed Britsh trade union history forever by fearlessly day after day fighting running street battles with police and racists.. So please my friend, don't be talking to me about drunken 11pm bare knuckle fights bhatra men had stumbling out of the pub. The way the bhatras treat females is an affront to everything our Gurus taught us and an embarassment to the ideals of Sikhs everywhere. Previously, the others did nothing to stop it because even mentioning it would bring allegations of casteism. Those days are over. For the previous 50 years the bhatras have lived in total isolation away from all the other Sikhs but the internet has changed that. We're living in a time now where the backward and disgusting practices are in the public domain via the internet. We're living ina time where, thnks to the internet, the wider Sikhs are actually coming into contact with the bhatra men. Not the bhatra women of course because they're kept in pardah at home away from the workplace and educational institution. We're living in a time when there is absolutely no excuse at all for the worldwide Sikhs to ignore the totally un-sikh practices of this weird little group on the fringes of Sikh society.

...says the man whose family and community: Think it is Sikhi to pay respect to dead father's and grandfather's photograph Think it is Sikhi to make their duaghter in laws etc cover their faces when in the presence of men Think it is Sikhi to have grandmothers and auntie with the surname 'Devi' (as per some old discredited maryada) Think it is Sikhi to serve sausages and eggs in Gurdwara langars (and only stop after there was an international outcry about it from Sikhs) Think it is Sikhi to bring the international name of Sikhi down by being the charlatan palm readers and forune tellers on the streets of Delhi, Bombay, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Think it is Sikhi to discourage females from studying because "they have no business prying their noses into the worldly affairs of men" Think it is Sikhi to embrace the Muslim's policy of not letting the wife work outside the home and totally disregard the traditional Sikh work ethic that 99.9% of the other Sikhs have. "Before the late 1950s the majority of Sikh settlers in Britain were Bhatra. Many originated from the Sialkot area now in Pakistan. In India Bhatras have been perceived by others as a low status, itinerant community of fortune-tellers. The visitor to New Delhi may still find Bhatra Sikhs in this line of business. In contemporary India members of all communities are to be found in widely ranging occupations. In Britain they settled in seaports — Glasgow, Portsmouth, Southampton, Bristol, Cardiff, and in Manchester, London, Edinburgh and Nottingham. At first they worked as door-to-door sellers. Nowadays they run small shops, let property and engage in a wide range of jobs. Although the longest established South Asian community in Britain, the Bhatras preserve customs long since abandoned by other Sikhs or unfamiliar to them. In the gurdwaras, contrary to Sikh teaching, wives are totally veiled because of the presence of senior male in-laws, and they are discouraged from working outside the home. Education, especially for girls, has not usually been highly valued and marriage takes place at an early age" Now, Big Tera, for your own benefit I will not make public the private message you sent me here yesterday, in which you make the most disgustingy racist / castist remarks about the families of virtually 90% of the sangat here. Not unless you force me to. I will however articulate just how disgustingly un-sikh your views about women are on this thread. You, and the one or two fools tht are supporting your views, are basically saying that woman are like animals...perhaps dogs for example.....and the only reason some of them (an extremely small percentage of them)....are leaving Sikhi is because we have Foolishly let them go outside the house without having their face covered in pardah Foolishly not beating them and mentally scaring them of the violent consequences of ever daring to talk to man that wasn't Sikh Foolishly letting these low intelligent animals study at university The ways of your community my friend will always seem strange and mysterious to all the other Sikhs and Punjabis but that is not the issue. The issue is how there can exist in the UK in the year 2015 a community of 'Sikhs' that have such a low understanding of what Sikhism says about gender and what the history of Sikhs has taught us about gender. How there can exist in the UK in the year 2015 a strange small community of Sikhs that follow the disgusting Muslim concept of keeping their women's faces covered. stopping their women from working, stopping their women from studying etc. This is not just a mystery it is frighteningly sad. It is not just frighteningly sad it is a damn disgrace that the rest of we Sikhs have let it happen and continue to let it happen because of the fear of being labelled 'casteist'.

In your community Sikhi, i,e uncut hair in a dastar is only for men. In your community, the men are in the pub while the female is discourged from pursuing higher education and married off in their late teens. I'm not crazy and yes, I do think the ways of your community are "stupid". Those ways are well demonstrated by all the posts you make here where you make points about "women being unintelligent" "the need to keep women in control" etc. These views of yours are totally compatible with the ways of your community but totally and utterly incompatible with the 99% of Sikhs and Sikhi as a religion. Thats not a "typical Punjabi family". Thats a typical bhatra family and bhatras are an extremely tiny insignificant community amongst the Punjabis. The "typical Punjabi" today is exactly the same as it was when Alexander the Great finally reached Punjab. On arrival in Punjab he wrote home to his mother and in his letter remarked how it was unlike any other land he had encountered before because here (in Punjab) the women work on the land as hard as the men and are as eager to fight as the men. What your community think is "typical Punjabi" is in actual fact typical Muslim in that religion, politics and warfare is seen as the preserve of the men and women are discouraged from working outside the home and encouraged to keep pardah in front of men. There is a reason why Sikhs in general do not tend to associate with your community. Your ways are totally alien to both Punjabi culture as a whole and Sikhism as it is prescribed and it is these 'ways' that spawn individuals with such outdated, backward, sexist, mysoginist views about women.

The different Sikh communities have different psyches and behaviours. What you said above is definately true of yours but amongst the jatts, for example, nearly all household choices and rules and especially religion, i.e the extent to which it is followed, is set by the females.

. :biggrin2: You sure about this 'fact' ? That is so true. I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the very high proportion of gingers among the new white muslim converts. Just googled this. It says 76% of white british converts to islam are ginger :omg: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/09/ginger-jihadis-why-redheads-are-attracted-to-radical-islam/

I doubt suicide rates are actually "soaring" across the world though. People have always killed themselves. Its just that different races do it in different ways. White people tend to do it quietly and without too much fuss by quietly taking a handfull of paracetomols in the bathtub. Black people don't tend to committ suicide. And Punjabis do it in the most loud, melodramatic way so that everyone will know their pain. Oh and Japanese tend to do it by either stabbing themselves in the stomach with a sword or flying their planes into American military harbours.

They've got the good name of Sikhi out there in the Yemen too now : http://www.thereportertimes.com/langar-free-food-in-war-torn-yemen-by-sikhs-of-khalsa-aid/8109/

Punjab's new roads may look nice but the fact they were/are built by children and mothers with babies on their backs digging up the road with their hands means they are nothing to be proud of. As for the shocking death rates on these roads.....nothing will change for the better untill and unless Punjab becomes civilised. A people are only ever a refelction of their rulers. When the rulers / lawmakers are corrupt the people who's job it is to enforce the law are also naturally corrupt. When the law enforcers are corrupt the public will also naturally be corrupt. This corruption encroaches on moral corruptness and bankruptcy and creates a society where human life, and with it human safety, is not valued as highly as it should be. Our Gurus taught us this and especially the concept of clean nature and environment tranquility espoused by Guru Har Rai ji. We Sikhs have forgetten his message, or at least pretend to ignore his message, while other groups have taken his message, use it as their own, and are getting millions of converts from Sikhism on the back of it. Ask anyone who has ever stepped foot inside the Radhaswami dera what was so good about it and the first thing they tell you is that its so clean, environment-friendly, nature friendly, quiet, peaceful, efficient, organised, where traffic rules and laws are obeyed and accidents never happen. These are our Sikh concepts these radhaswamis have taken and created a cean accident free environment from. Its time we took our concepts back and use them for the benfit of all Punjab:

And thus concludes today's lesson by Jeevan in 'How to kill, stone cold dead, multiple threads by posting the same, only slightly interesting but not at all relevant thing on all of them' In tomorrow's lesson, Jeevan will be teaching us how to make Fires on a cold winter's night bigger and better by pouring water over them.

Here's the thing: Hindu India is rotten. Rotten to the core. Poor man, his wife and child go to the police looking for justice and end up getting stripped. An everyday occurrance in Hindu India but this one makes it on to the internet. Sikhs in the west read it. But they draw from it not the reality of how the khastriyas control the police because they control the politicians because they control the industry because they control the wealth. No. Instead he or she thinks it's appropriate to hark back to 30 years ago when a Sikh discriminated against another Sikh because of caste. In the meantime, the people (sikhs) that reallly discriminate, really control the industry, really control the wealth go on sidelining both you and me and get richer and richer whilst stepping on our fathers like nothing more than foundation stones. The Pakistanis wo are religious / spiritual lament how these elite that control Lahor's industry and wealth are these Sikhs and Hindus who converted out of love for money and wealth and changed their 'caste' name from from khatri to khoja in 1947 to protect their wealth. We, in Southall, have them amongst us now, parasites who show no respect for the struggles, battles, blood sweat and tears that went into creating sikh southall. They did the same in mahara ranjit singh time when they made their first born a sikh just to get wealth just as they did in 1947. We, however, can't bring ourselves to even slightly criticise them because their love of wealth has bought them so much wealth that they've virtually had published 90% of all 'Sikh' books. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, as ever, knew more than any of us and way ahead of his time. Sri Guru Granth Sahb says ਖਤ੍ਰੀਆ ਤ ਧਰਮੁ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਮਲੇਛ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਗਹੀ ॥ The K'shatriyas have abandoned their religion, and have adopted a foreign language. Guru ji knew even back then how these people will do anything, say anything, wear anything, just to protect and enhance their wealth.. So, the moral of the strory is this: When a story breaks from backward India about backward Indians indulging in backward Indian practices, don't go falling into the trap that the people that control the wealth of the system that keeps them Indians so poor and backward want you to fall into. In a story about bakward india either write messages about backward India or, if you're determined to bring it close to home, write about the people that REALLY discriminate.

And Boblee and Guddo. And Sweetie and Lovely.

I don't think I know any male 'Simrans'. There must be some but I don't personally know of any. Know hundreds of female Simrans though.....Its defnately the most popular Sikh name for females over the last 2 decades. Along with Santokhi. And Baksho.

There really isn't much more to discuss or add here. An apni married a Muslim. She's now not only lost her liberty by being locked up in jail but she also lost her eyebrows so had to draw cartoon ones on with a pencil. Justice complete.

When you say 'elderly' you mean in the sense that Brad Pitt and Jonny Depp are extremely ancient ? given how the 'sikh' in question was clearly in his 40's whereas both Bradd and Jonny are in their 50's. 'Violently' ???? :omg: You've obviously got a strange definition of the word 'violent' given how the man only received slaps and didn't even require medical treatment. Thats an aboslute lie. On'y the ones like you who term real Sikhs 'Khaliban' and support the Indian government were "outraged". The rest of us saw through the Indian lies of deliberately depicting that perfectly fit middle aged man as vulnerable, frail and 'elderly'.

Can you please translate that for the benefit of those of us who don't consume pot ?

Its not often I start a thread that isn't my own work but this is a special case. In fact its amazing. Just read the comments from average 'Indians'. These Sikhs from the UK based Khalsa Aid / Langar Aid have done something quite extraordinary. Whole western nations have got armies and armed specialists that won't step foot there because its so dangerous. Western news agencies won't send their reporters there because its so dangerous. And yet a group of Sikhs have gone out there and fed the hungry. I'm in total awe of these guys and salute the way they've brought so much love and respect for Sikhs worldwide. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/other-news/Sikhs-set-up-langar-in-IS-territory-to-feed-Yazidis/articleshow/49251449.cms

Deary me, thats quite a frightening picture. See thats what I don't understand about some of these girls, especially up in the Midlands where it seems far more common than down here. What exactly is that that goes through their mind when she thought her face would suit a short haircut ? or, "my face will look so much better if I shave off the eyebrows I've got and draw some cartoon ones on instead" ? Fact is, you make you bed...you lie on it. And hers just happens to be at one of her majesty's hotels. My message to all Sikh girls is this : If you sleep with a porkie....you'll end up doing pokie.

Brahma in the sense, my sister, of the god inside us all. The book of bushido is just an extenstion of Shintoism and when you remember how shintoism was influenced by Bhuddism and how Bhuddism came from just a few hundred miles away from where Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was born you begin to understand our place in this. You talked, in another thread, of the old Chinese Kung Fu tv programme 'The Water Margin', well that is relavant here also because the premise of that programme was that Chinese warriors were trying to reach India; where they would reach mukhti, in the land of budhha. "So whats relevant here ?" I here you scream. The relevance is that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was the greatest of the greatest that ever lived. Just like the way, in his Zafarnama, he re-taught the Persians about their glorious poetic history, i.e classical Persian without Arabic influence he also taught us about the need for creating a warriors bung on the top of our heads. I could sit here and quote all day about Sampson, Moses, Brahma, Jesus and the realtionship to hair but what need do we have for these great prohpets when our wonderfull master knew, as proved in Zafarnama, everything. I wear hair not for no reason. I wear it because my master knew it was a window into my soul.

Apart from the Nazrite example, the historical tradition of the Abrahamic faiths (except the original: Judaism) is that a man must have neither short nor long hair, i.e 'it must be of acceptable length'. The really interesting bit though is about beards. Now, we all know that the Muslims have a requirement to trim their mustaches but the Jewish scriptures state that a man must never trim his beard and must 'let it flow freely'. Its really interesting that Judaism stresses how the long untrimmed free flowing beard on a man is the mirror image of his soul and so to find the God inside him he must have that image. The Christians too had (and to a certain extent still do) have this tradition. Thats why in all the original churches, i.e Orthodox, Coptic etc, the religious priests have very long untrimmed beards. We in the west however are only exposed to the newer christian church, i.e the Roman Catholic church and the protestant off-shoots that came from it. You've all heard of the saying 'when in Rome do as the Romans do' ? Well thats exactly what the Christian religion did once it hit the west. It was the norm in Rome for men to try and look like boys, so only the very poor grew beards. Thus, Christainity in the west discarded it's beard but since then Christians in the west have failed to properly understand what Paul in Corinthians meant when he talked about uncovering the head in church and men not having long hair etc. Christians take that literally without fully understanding how, at that time, there was a need to separate rules for men and women because there were certain characteristics in dress that signified a woman was a prostitute. As for Kesh, its interesting that the Samourai of Japan were required to have a top-knot. Their code of conduct - The Book of Bushido - makes numerous references to Brahma and stresses that a true warrior cannot be a warrior at all unless he wears his hair in a top-knot.

Its funny you should say that because I remember as a kid we were all in the living room together (I was doing my homework or something) and my grandad, who was flicking through the TV channels, kept shouting "too much bloody violence on TV" "too much bloody violence". I said something about it being the Americans fault because their tv programmes were so violent. He looked at me like I was a bloody <banned word filter activated> and said "I'm saying there's too much bloody violins on TV". You see it was a Sunday night and BBC 1 were showing Last Night at the Proms and ITV had some other classical music programme on. No matter which channel you went on there was orchesteral music everywhere. :biggrin2:

Really don't like that picture. I'll tell you why: Its the way the artist has deliberately given the bad guys (mughal soldiers) a darker skin tone than the Sikhs.There's 2 things wrong with that and the first is the obvious fact that the mughal soldiers the Sikhs fought battles with were mostly pathans so of a skin colour more akin to white-olive than brown. But the second point is the main one, i.e the fact that the artist has forgotten the main aspect of Sikhi: Equality. To paint a picture depicting the righteous fighting the un-righteous and yet at the same time forgetting the righteous path of not seeing a darker skin tone as 'bad' is very contradictory. There is also a third point and that is the fact that the artist has given all the Sikhs short-trimmed malkit singh goldenstar beards. I'm sorry, but if I was an art teacher I would fail this painting.