dallysingh101

I missed that bit? Tejkaran Kaur adopted a straight translation of the steek by the Professor, so be careful you aren't attributing words from him to her. Absolutely agree about looking into multiple commentaries/steeks. I think this falls into the general principle of just relying on one source being potentially dangerous. Not only in terms of taking on potential misunderstandings but also to avoid that sort of deification many apnay all to commonly do, when they encounter such things - even if the work is brilliant. No human is perfect. We shouldn't be blind fans of ANYONE'S translations. Having attempted some myself, I'm acutely aware of the potential for misapprehensions in this. Besides, at this point, I've come to believe that there are aspects of Gurbani that go beyond the semantic too, i.e. rhythmically, auditory etc. and then we have the whole dimension of that beyond the senses - which is the ultimate aim? I think the professor did a top job with interpretation along grammatical lines. And his pad arth is an excellent way to get a better understanding of the vocabulary therein. As I've got older, my own opinion has been to explore interpretations from the colonial period (and any other for that matter) with a bit more of a...ehm...what's the rights words I'm looking for........ehm.... critical eye. That's just to be careful of subtle colonial era protestant influences within. That being said, I do believe the professor's contribution is of very high value. And one definitely doesn't lose out by exploring it.

In the end, the volatile nature of the region and the demographics means that it will NEVER be any sort of stronghold/safe haven for Sikhs compared to other places across the border. But if the principle of safety in numbers and support networks have any truth, refugee Sikhs may well prefer these locations over others. Only rose tinted glasses wearers (of which there are MANY) would blindly consider the place as any sort of friendly safe haven, and experiences with paks in other nations (like the UK) give a strong indication of how we are perceived by many from the region. We've got a problem with simple-mindedness and gullibility, but hopefully people will learn not to be victims of this. Right now, for economic reasons (and maybe political ones too?), it serves p'stan to open up these places. It's on our people to make the most of this and implement whatever security measures are appropriate. Having ears and eyes in the region isn't a bad thing either. Yes, things can change suddenly and quickly, say if some hard-line cleric gets in power. Much like the shift from Akhbar to his son Jahunghira. Events in India like attacks on mosques outside of Punjab can also cause a sudden change too. This happened in Afghanistan with the attack on the Babri mosque for example. If nothing else it can serve as a point for Afghan-pak Sikhs to get closer to the majority panth in Panjab proper.

Awesome post! This one is especially great in details of a class environment. Look at the bottom left corner here. The kid in yellow appears to be smacking up the other one for breaking his water bucket. lol! Then on the right corner another kid appears to be punishing a classmate with the old kukkar move. Are the ones in the middle are making pens (or kalams)?

I remember something appearing on the market that was supposed to have been from the library a few years back. Can't remember much about it though. As for what has been returned (as per claims), hasn't the SGPC learnt its lessons yet and digitised them and made people aware of what we have? Why do these people sit on these things and not inform the panth of what we have? I know the average illiterate/semi-illiterate apna wouldn't be interested but lots of us would, including (if not especially) in the diaspora.

Yep. Also I imagine the Sikh populations around the Gurdwaras will grow too. So some of those Sikh-Afghan refugees may well find they have less hostile places to visit and meet other sangat?

This guy is unhinged......... Bet you he's some sweaty stani posting from his momma's basement or something.....

This might help with interpretation brother. http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/13297-english-translation-of-prof-sahib-singhs-katha-of-japji-sahib/

I tell you one thing that set me back years (unnecessarily in my opinion). When I started trying to read Gurmukhi properly I too tried with Gurbani but for some unfathomable reason no one told me that certain vowel symbols (especially at the ends of words) are grammatical indicators and are not actually read as part of the word. This can confuse people (well it did me). So you might want to focus on some other less difficult texts (like children's books with words you might already know) for a bit - just to get proper familiarity with the sounds associated with the symbols. Dasam Bani doesn't use these silent symbols so you could also maybe use that as a tool to help nail reading? Great that you've got to this point in any case! Good on you. There is nothing like being able to read in the original script - keep at it!

I put this together years ago on the topic. Some of links are stubs now, but see if it helps? http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/14814-learning-to-read-write-gurmukhipanjabi-tips-on-getting-started/?tab=comments#comment-128273

Fatty bom-bom.......

I think inspiration of brave Sikhs of the past and present is a key here too. You have to identify with them.

^^^ Some good points there. I'm going to dig out some old references to the event and scan and post them later.

Look how long this sad case has been trolling us under false identities..... He/she must have no life.

I think there is also a genuine danger of Islamist fundamentalism rearing its head in future. We've seen what such people have done to Buddhist heritage in Afghanistan. On the plus though, it seems like Baba Nanak is quite respected by many over there (even if they see him as some sort of muslim). Surely some sullay over there must have had enough of the kuttarpunha they've been promoting for ages now.

I got a close relative who is (now) VERY rich (he grew up poverty stricken). He does the same. Gives donations to x, y and z group but seems totally oblivious to other members of the family who are poor and really struggling. The donations these people give are strategic image enhancers - no genuine heart is involved

Very insightful. I think surviving a few dangerous situations you've found yourself in when young and subsequently too - and the way this changes you psychologically can't really be replicated. Bravery involves facing danger. My belief is that if one has the constitution, repeated exposure to danger sort of desensitises a person (for better or for worse). But for that, you need to grow up in adversary - or have neglectful parents - or have a wild streak of your own that gets you in trouble. lol I think dasmesh pita used hunting to simulate the danger and rush of warfare though, and it seemed to have worked a treat.

I think they know they will get more publicity and look better (to whomever they are trying to impress?) if they do this over helping poor Sikhs.

Not with those guys I see wearing them on stages....... Plus why are we discussing man-skirts on a Sikh forum when it's obvious that we were given kasheray in their place?????

I know, but to discard historical narratives because they don't fit into people's preconceived notions, isn't right either. And Sikh conservatives do this all the time. Banda Singh is a perfect example. If goray didn't invade and influence Sikh historiography, we'd have Bhangu's work as one of the major contributions on this subject. But because today we are all influenced by latter Singh Sabha Europeanised historiography we actually reject native Sikh historical narratives for latter whitewashed, europeanised ones. That's mental! And not to mention inferiority complexed.

I think you're on the ball here. I think that period was one of shock and fear for the majority of the panth. The sudden execution of a much beloved, increasingly popular (in Jahangir's own words) prolific spiritual mystic with obvious wide ranging and powerful skills at reconfiguring society along more humanistic lines must have stunned the panth and it did take them into territory they had never been in before and many probably never expected - i.e. against the most powerful state of the times. It must have been even more shocking because apparently Jahangir accompanied his own father Akhbar to see Guru ji in the past - and his father was much impressed by what he witnessed. Look the panth has always been made up of a mixture of people. Simpletons, and those who are astute and smart. The former outnumber the latter (till this day). The latter would have been clued up to what was going on, and the former would are going to be inclined to get confused by all manner of hearsay and rumour. Guru Arjan Dev ji and his inner circle were obviously aware of the shift going on because (according to our own traditions) he was practically preparing for conflict by encouraging wrestling and physical activities and how he encouraged his son (chevin padshah) to follow a soldierly lifestyle. I believe Guru ji's shaheedi was a period of trauma and shock for much of the rank and file of the panth - hence even the contemporary Bhai Gurdas doesn't explicitly detail out what happened and uses metaphors. It will be very interesting to trace the emergence and expansion of the Chandu narrative in the surviving written accounts (if they occur therein). It may well have been a deflection by some Sikhs who were too scared to explicitly point the fingers at the moghuls for self-preservatory reasons?

Yeah, again it is VERY informative that these guys still retained the original Khalsa standard. So they were aware of the political and religious connotations of this even though they had been colonised. It's practically a rejection of the new identity that had been foisted on them through a reminder of the recent independent Sikh past.

Sounds interesting. Se if you can find a link to it bro? Yeah, and it's another one of those twists that created a new, more placid thing called 'Sikhism' from Sikhi.

It might shake up the foundations of 'SIkhism' but I think it would take A LOT more than that to shake the foundations of Sikhi. If seeking 'sat' is a primary objective - finding new verifiable sources of ithihaas and evaluating and utilising them is no bad thing. We should consider that the surviving literature may not cover everything and that we should also acknowledge oral traditions too. As for Banda Singh's portrayal. I just reread that the other day. I don't think it is slander at all. Okay, so it gives specifics of character (as Bhangu heard from his own family which is broadly inline with Dhadhi Nathmaal's early account and even what some contemporary moghuls were saying - in terms of a reputation for serious awe-inspiring magical power), but the only reason people have a problem with it is because they have been pre-influenced by later whitewashed idealised accounts written during the Singh Sabha period which felt compelled to jettison things that goray of the time raised an eyebrow at. That baaharlaa influence still survives in your own preconceptions. Depends on who you discuss them with. If it is hardcore, non-reflective conservatives in the panth - then yes. If it is outsiders or insiders who have a hidden agenda to undermine the panth - then yes. If it is intelligent, open minded apnay - then no. This is actually very important cultural historical debate - for those of us who have been given kirpa to discuss it without going into some frothing at the mouth fits.

I think they were hardcore too, especially when it came to directly confronting external challenges even when these were dangerous. But I actually also think they were more realistic and open minded about the world and its realities than most modern amritdharis are today, if that makes sense. They can't have been closeted during all of the events of the 18th century surely. That's impossible. Even if (theoretically) some of our ancestors tried to closet their offspring, the events around them would have pretty much ensured that this didn't happen. Could today's arguable naivety be explained as a consequence of the colonial period leading to detaching the sangat from Dasam Bani and a lot of other thought provoking literature - and imposing a low quality 'education system' in its place. And promoting very simple-minded, rural cultural practices and thinking in the void too - for social-control and economic reasons?

Yeah, and just also accept that things have happened in the past that aren't always flattering. And that post-annexation influenced historiography involved cover-ups, and sanitised representations (a distinctly brit culture influence) whereas pre-annexation historiography (and even creative literary narratives from our Guru ji like CP) were much more open and honest about events and realities. That modern day puritan conservatism our people seem to demonstrate today doesn't seem to have been a feature of the early Khalsa (and wider Sikh) panth.