puzzled

Yeah I'd imagine she had a conservative upbringing, and then started getting attention from these men. There's a big difference between conservative and traditional. Just because you're traditional don't mean you are conservative. Like I'd describe my family as "traditional" but far from conservative. Its these boys and girls from conservative families that become weird and freaky. Like those kids from proper conservative Christian families, the girls end up becoming s1uts after the first bit of male attention. I think traditional, yet not strict, is the right way, if you do it properly. Especially for Sikhi. But tradition can go wrong too! if you do it the wrong way! Going the complete opposite of traditional just makes you into your average White family, coconuts. Yeah the Shokar guy probably saw himself as a hero saving Mandil. Probably thought he would get her, or a bit of her in return. Silly man. Yeah he possibly moved to the UK as a kid with recent immigrant parents. Those kids end up going crazy as well, lol, I've seen it.

It's true though, the aunties aren't far off when they compare men/women with loose morals to their parents. A lot of the time it is true. But obviously in today's day and age it would be considered unfair, and I can see why it is unfair, but you can't deny the comparisons. The people I went to school with, the ones that ended up sleeping around etc their parents were basically doing the same when they were younger. That's why the previous generation used to say its important to look at the the ways and behaviours of the family.

Its interesting though, Pubjabis especially the older generation believe that its nature, lol. Like when aunties are talking about some female who turned out to be a s1ut, you always hear one of them mentioning something like how the dadhi also ran away with a truck driver back in the old days, lol It's the same with men. When some guy has a reputation for sleeping around etc he always gets compared to his dad if the dad was upto the same back in the days. My interpretation of this is that Punjabis, especially the middle aged lot believe that s1utty behaviour is inherited lol And! they're not that wrong a lot of the time ?

I disagree with that. I've come across a lot more thirsty monay than Singhs, in fact monay are quite open about the thirst, which isn't surprising considering dating and other things are a part of mona culture. Singhs in general are more grounded. The "thirsty" ones are the ones that come from very religious families where interaction with the opposite gender is frowned upon. The minute a girl smiles at them and says hi, they think she likes them. Girls from really religious families can be a bit creepy as well, Mahil gives me those creepy vibes. She's a freak behind closed doors. Insecurity also plays a part in it aswell. Men who are confident in themselves, they don't behave like that.

Mundill is a strange name, never heard it before, it doesn't even sound Sikh or even Indian.

Might be a bit off topic but I always find it weird when people try to compare religion and science, or "prove" religion with science. Christians and Muslims do it a lot, I guess it's because their religions are constantly criticised for strange stories and practices. Their religions get thrashed left right center, so Its no surprise they get back by trying to use science. Same with using science to "prove" God you can't! Its like using a toaster to make tea! Or wanting to see Lions but you go to the aquarium instead! Two completely different things with different purpose/use.

I've got extended family with the surname "Mahal" so Mahil might be the same but with different spellings.

Its tragic what happened, young person with his whole life ahead of him got murdered in such a barbaric way. I remember back when it happened people were questioning why he being an amritdhari was in a relationship etc He was a young man and probably was very much in love with that crazy woman. It does sound like he was a bit obsessed but breakups do make people do weird things. She probably told him she will marry him and live happily ever after etc If your trying to be a practicing Sikh then you really should stay away from relationships, its makes you do wrong things and Sikhi no longer remains a priority. But when you're young, like they were, you get carried away with it all. Look how this guy ended simply because he made that girl his priority. She's quite an average looking bird, not sure why all these Singhs are obsessing, killing, going prison, sacrificing careers/opportunities over her! She must have that "something" Who knows, BBC or the ITV might decide to turn it into a crime drama! their trying to use as many brown/black actors as they can these days.

???

I don't think he's a "guy" he said his pronouns are "they, them and their" lol ?

tbh bro, I don't think the average mona wants reform in Sikhi, a lot of them openly admit that they drink, cut hair etc and are not practicing Sikhs, and they aren't trying to push anything into Sikhi or distort it. But, its the ones that are openly saying that they want to change Sikhi, bring it into the 21st century, introduce lgbt weddings, saying that keeping hair isn't important, changing anand karaj maryada, discarding anything that doesn't fit their vision of what Sikhi should be etc these lot are a problem! and they will keep pushing until they don't get their way! The average monas that I know they aren't trying to change anything. I don't agree with their lifestyle at all, but at least they aren't pushing for change. Women/monis are a different case though. But the ones that want to bring Sikhi into the "21st century" change maryada and tradition, push feminism, lgbt into Sikhi they are a problem! They call us dinosaurs they do! I agree with the "Sikh" weddings. I stopped going a long time back, last "Sikh" wedding I went to was probably around 5 years ago. I don't have heart to see the disrespect that takes place. From what I hear things are getting even worse. The last time I was told about Sikh weddings was just before the lock down by three different people. Lady i know went to her cousins wedding and the bride got so drunk at the reception party that her brothers had to carry her and place her in the car when the party was over! My cousin went to a wedding from the other side of the family and she said the sangat was showering the bride with flowers as she walked in, the granthi Singh got angry and told the ladies to pick the flowers up and said it is not gurmat. And the last one, my friend went to a wedding and he said the granthi Singh stopped and made an announcement and told the women to stop talking and to cover their heads properly and wear appropriate clothes to the Gurdwara. I have a very close relative in another country is getting married later this year and I've already told my family I'm not going. I've been sent the pre-wedding photo-shoot and it really wasn't my cup of tea! think I would feel very out of place around them people! and I know for a fact they will do disrespectful things during their anand karaj. Its worrying the direction things are going.

It's quite silly of Hindus to start provoking Sikhs in the West, they won't exactly have Modi saving them. I wonder how interfaith families deal with these tensions? like Sikhs with Hindus partners/spouse? they probably just bury their heads in the sand, I guess ...

Politics, cricket and Bollywood is a form of escapism in India

I think it comes down to the fact that most Indians are simple minded and rural. Most of them have nothing interesting going on in their lives, many living miserable wretched lives. That's why Politics, Bollywood and Cricket are so big in that country. These three things give them a purpose in their empty rural lives, like a fantasy world. When India wins a cricket match, every Indian, including slum dwellers feel that they've just won something. Its the same with politics. I've been India during the voting season, and they go crazy as if the results of the elections are a personal family dispute. Telling the simple minded Hindu who walks to the fields to take a dump, that BJP will change India, save it from Islam and make Pakistan a part of India by 2025 and that his vote matters, gives the Hindu a purpose! it makes him feel he is a part of something. Its the same with Bollywood, it gives them a purpose, takes them away from miserable India and into a fantasy world with seductive women, flying cars, superheroes saving the damsel in distress. When Aishwarya Rai put on weight after having a baby, she was supposed to attend the Cannes film festival in southern France and Indians were saying how she's ruining India's image with her big size, letting India down on the world stage etc It just shows you how empty these peoples lives must be! Surely India has bigger things to worry about than an overweight middle aged actress attending a film festival in France? But no! Bollywood gives these people a purpose in life that's why they take it so personally. Remember whenever the Indian cricket team used lose a match, Indians used start throwing bricks through their bungalows lol ? Indians used feel that they personally lost something in life, like a deep wound. Its because they have nothing going in their miserable lives! Its the same with politics. Its gives them a purpose, something to look forward to, they feel like they are a part of the change. Telling a Hindu that India and Hinduism is under threat and that his support matters, gives the Hindu a purpose. That's why the Indian government will always keep its population the way it is, they are really easy to control and that's just where the government wants them to be.

But I think that's the direction they're heading. They're probably going to become like those angry militant feminist mobs, and start protesting outside Gurdware asking for changes, the BBC and similar media will be the first ones there to cover it. Its already happened to all the other religions. There are reform Churches, synagogues etc These people don't stop till they get what they want, they use leftist media to back them. They're already getting together! and these Sikhs have a big Sikh following!

Its funny how bhakts are becoming like the very people they are apparently rising up against, Muslims. What's the difference between a mob of Muslims in Pakistan or Afghanistan lynching Hindus and a Hindu mob lynching Muslims in India. South Asian Muslims drool over the thought of "Gazwa a Hind" even though Arab Muslims don't care, and then there are Hindus wanting an Akhand Bharat, apparently Hindus will make Pakistan into India by 2025, lol. Pakistanis forcefully convert Hindus into Muslims in Pakistan, while Hindus in India are going around converting dalit Muslims/Christians back into Hinduism "ghar wapsi" What's the difference? Hindus are becoming like the very people they are apparently saving Hinduism and India from.

Quite cool, a sundial or sun clock at Harmandir Sahib. Its from the time of the Sikh empire. I've never seen it before but its along the bridge that connects the Dharshan Deori and Harmandir Sahib. Nice bit of history! hopefully they won't destroy it!

I don't know what to call these people so I'm just calling them reform Sikhs? or maybe progressive Sikhs. Whatever they are, they are growing. So, what is it that 21st century reform Sikhs want? From my understanding they want more rights for women, LGBTQA+ rights including LGBTQA+ Anand Karaj. They want some reform in Anand Karaj like the bride walking next the groom. They believe that keeping 5 kakkar are not necessary. Many of them feel that in the 21st century we can lax on some of the rules like drinking, modesty, dating etc What other views do they hold? Are there any reform Sikh leaders? social media stars? What does the future hold for these Sikhs? What percentage of Sikhs are reform Sikhs? Sikhs who want to see these changes in Sikhi ? Does anyone personally know one of these Sikhs? have you asked them what they want?

Was thinking, has the Sikh community failed to implement maryada and rules at the Gurdwara and in the community. Time after time, again and again, we are seeing Sikhs breaking maryada, traditions and rules in the Gurdwara and community. There are no consequences? and its happening again and again. The excuse often used is that Sikhs don't know anything about their religion so its not their fault. Sometimes the granthi Singhs get blamed. There are so many cases, I don't know which one to chose, but for example, a few years back after her anand karaj a Sikh bride decided to climb onto Guru Granth Sahib Jis throne, sat on it with her back facing Guru ji, and did her wedding photo-shoot. Most Sikhs were very supportive of her and said it wasn't her fault and that she didn't know it was wrong to climb onto Guru Granth Sahib jis throne to do a wedding photoshoot. Some people blamed the granthi Singhs(who weren't present in the darbar hall), while other complemented the Photo and said "its only a photo" My question is that if this coy, naive bride had decided to have a church wedding, would she have climbed onto the altar and started posing with Jesus and the cross? don't think so! why? because she would know that its disrespectful. Maryada is broken again and again, beadbi is done by the sangat again and again, why? Everyone has experienced going to the Gurdwara and the whole sangat is sitting in around the parimeter of the darbar hall, chatting away, answering phone calls! this is normally the case at Akand paats and Anand Karaj. Even When an annoyed Singh gets up and tells everyone to not talk, no one listens. Now, you can bring up the usual excuse and say Sikhs don't know about their religion so they don't know that your not supposed to talk or make phone calls when sitting in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib ji. But my question is if these same people attended a Sunday Church service, while the pastor is delivering a sermon would these same Sikhs start chatting and making phone calls? No, they wouldn't, Why? because they know its disrespectful. So I don't buy the whole "oh, no one taught them about their religion, its not their fault, blame the parents " argument. Why is it so accepted in our community to bend the rules ? is it because they know that no one will face consequences? Why do Sikhs feel they can push all sorts of nonsense into our Gurdware? You now have Sikhs showering the bride with petals as she walks in for her anand karaj. Why is this acceptable? Why do Sikhs have the impression that anything goes, like they have the right to do as they like in the Gurdwara? What are the consequences? or do you just get a telling off? because if that's the case then things are only gnna get worse. What is being done about the growing cases of Sikhs breaking rules and doing beadbi in Gurdware?

Yeah I get what you mean, guitar kinda kills culture. I've listened to some Orthodox chanting and Middle Eastern Christian music and it sounds so ethereal! I personally love listening to kirtan with classical Instruments. Most the kirtan on my phone is classical. But these days most people connect more to guitar kirtan and acoustic kirtan etc I think introducing the harmonium did not help! it replaced the traditional instruments. The harmonium was introduced to India by European Christian missionaries during the Raj. They used to play the harmonium and sing hymns! The guitar now might end up replacing the harmonium!

Yeah same, my parents and I don't say "chhote" as smaller, but we say "shhotte" I can pronounce it as "chhote" but it feels unnatural lol Same with the other two. I think it depends on which dialect of Punjabi you speak in.

Yeah, we have a similar case in our local area. Punjabi guy tried killing his wife and came out of prison and started working in the local area, he was quite well known by everyone before he went to prison. Very friendly man! I've spoken to him a few times since he came out of prison and I forget that he went to prison! Its like nothing happened and then I remember he tried killing his Mrs! Watched a documentary on one of the Sikh channels a few years back. A prison worker was explaining that when someone comes out of prison, assimilating back into society and socialising is a very important part of the recovery. She said its especially important for ethnic men, considering most Brown/Black men come from tight knit communities, religion and cultures, where acceptance and inclusion is very important. We kind of live in a community which is within the wider community. Its the same with addicts. When they come out of rehab, being accepted by their community is a very important part of the recovery. When people start committing crime or doing drugs, they first distance themselves from their community, stop attending Gurdwara, family/religious events, and then distance themselves from their family. Its when they come out of prison or rehab and are rejected by their communities, that's when they get back to anti-social behavior.

If feminist and fem-men Sikhs, and LGBT Sikhs, and the "it's the 21st century" crowd, had it their own way, then this is what our Gurdware would resemble.

I could be wrong but I think depending on the dialect of Punjabi we speak it slightly changes some of the sounds of some of the akhars. I pronounce it as Shh as well, so do my parents.