MAX

Looks like it's still digesting its last meal. Damn, it's at times like this that I'm glad I live in England... Magnificent creature, though.

This is the first incident of its kind I've heard of and it is obviously very distressing news. Though I don't think that Sikkhs will garner respect by simply responding with violence. That's what the BJP and RSS-types are waiting for so they can swoop in and make a total fascist clamp-down. Don't give them that chance.

Not really sure. It may have had something to do with the authoritative role - or lack thereof - that women posessed in society at the time. It's no real biggie if you think about. It's tough to lead a sangat of any kind if their leader is not fully respected by its followers due to socio-cultural prejudices that may exist within that sangat. If anything, it was smart to not have women be in overly authoritative positions at the time due to how many people (by "people", I mean "men" ) may have felt threatened by or not respected a female leader or Guru. But Guru Nanak's sister is held up in reverence in terms of her faith in her brother's wisdom when even his father had branded him rebellious and financially useless. And Mai Bhagö's incredible act of chivalry will be remembered as the ultimate cultural turning point in all of sub-continental, and perhaps even world history, as the day women took up their husbands' martial clothes and went to battle alongside Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In a time when widows were burned on the flames of their husbands' funeral pyres and were considered little more than the property of men - like farm animals or...a table - Guru Nanak raised his hand in defiance and completely reversed the image that women had within that society. "Of woman are we born, of woman conceived, to woman engaged, to woman married. Woman we befriend, by woman is the civilisation continued. When woman dies, woman is sought for. It is by woman that order is maintained. Then why call her evil from whom great men are born? From woman is woman born, and without woman none would exist. The eternal Lord is the only one, O Nanak, who depends not on woman." Guru Granth Sahib Asa, p. 473 Men have always been fearful of women. Their intellect, their charm, their general capacity. And so, through the rungs of patricarchal society, men have quashed and stifled these amazing and brilliant and beautiful women due to their own insecureties and fear of inferiority or subordination. Whilst there may be no female writings in the Granth Sahib - as this would probably be a step too far in those days - their honour is given its due. I am sure that, had society been more accepting of women's leadership, Guru Nanak would have appointed a woman to be his successor. I don't see where this point was ever raised. The question of 'why are there no writings by women?' was raised in a respectful manner. In a patricarchal, oppressive society where women were worth the same as the phatti you sit on, there is little such opportunity, unfortunately. Guru Nanak helped to change that. Society has a way of imposing its stereotypes on the psyche of the oppressed as well as the oppressors. Women perhaps felt as though this "wasn't their place" or perhaps "did not want to show up their husbands/other men who weren't brave enough to volunteer". You must remember that the world of the Gurus was completely different from what it is today. One should take this into account whenever viewing any of the events from Sikkhi's past.

I'm sorry, I was wondering what exactly it was that was so offensive about that? In terms of a political reality, Guru Arjan Dev's incredible sacrifice was indeed a major factor in the "protracted conflict between the Mughal dynasty and the Sikkh community" that followed. I don't see how this is offensive. Perhaps someone would care to explain it to me. I just had a funny image flash into my mind. I'd like to share it if I may. When you accused something non-Sikkh (or what you perceive to be as non-Sikkh) as being "manmat", I just had the image of a Muslim shouting "käfir". Dunno, just sorta popped in there

At times like this, no-one is right and no-one is wrong. Both are asserting their views with violent undertones, and both need to reconsider what they are saying and how they are saying it.

They say it sometimes takes a crisis to bring families/communities together, and if there is one thing that Sikkh history is no stranger to, it's crisis.

Well, I'm vehemently against the consumption of alcohol, but I also understand that personal beliefs and social occasions are two very different things. I'm not there to convince people of my opinion; I'm there to make sure that everyone is having a good time. It's a party, for Pete's sake, not a philosophy lessson! If I could come to a no-alcohol arrangement that was amicable for all, I'd be very much in support of it. Else, who cares? It's not like I'm gonna start drinking just because other people aer

Why do you harbour so much hate? One cannot harbour hatred and the name of the One Lord in their heart at the same time. You must choose between the two.

Then allow me to translate: If you're smart, you'll look at what other people are doing and learn from their successes and their follies. If you ain't so smart, you'll go through that torturous experience when you could have just stood back to examine it and learned from it. Yes, you're 'saved' and I'm 'condemned' because you go through a certain set of rituals/motions and I don't.

The form (sargun) and the formless (nirgun) are merely facets of human perception. We can either perceive something, or we can not. The One Lord pervades all things, both those that are within our neurosensory range, and those that aren't. Names, labels, religions, etc...these are all things that are man-made. Created by us in an attempt to concretise the abstract, to give form to the formless (i.e. to make nitgun into sargun) so as to make it easier for our minds to grasp certain concepts. It doesn't make the sargun 'true'. It simply makes it into a representation. The problem, of course, is when the representation begins to take primacy over what it represents, and this continues until the original concept has disappeared, and only the empty shell remains. No institution is above this, because every insitution is man-made.

VJKK VJKF! A-thank you very much

The things I've heard from the mouths and minds of some self-proclaimed 'Khalsa' is enough of a confirmation that I'm not missing out on much. That...actually made no sense to me. But whatever, dude - as long as you're happy :TH:

Mm...you say that her sister was harassed? But that doesn't mean that she will be harassed. And if she is, I'm sure she'll be able to stand her ground and let you know if such a situation were ever to arise. She sounds responsible and trustworthy enough from what you've said. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but that last part is up to you I guess. Good luck :TH:

"The foolish learn from experience. The wise learn from the experience of others."

Not "problem" but "decision". No one has a monopoly on the right. Think 'lotus flower'. Be happy that you are who and what you are, neither wasting time on affecting others, nor allowing others to affect you. Heh...I stick around for a bit just to see the tamasha and then I get on my way. It's not like anyone will notice you leaving...

Haha...yeah, man... In the U.K., the line between 'Muslim' and 'Asian' barely exists as far as Caucasians go :TH:

People speak. Unfortunately, most of the time, they speak nonsense. Ignore and move on.

I have a feeling that comment may have been taken out of context. No-one is stupid enough to say anything like that about a religion. I'd like to read the full transcript. Chill, man. Just because one person says it, it doesn't make it the truth. Yes, the world is about to finish, the skies are falling, and the demons are rising from the bowels of the Earth...oh, hang on...no it's not. It's amazing how visciously people will hang on to the odd casual comment. It happens. Grow a backbone, Singh. Show 'em why you're called a 'lion'

The full passage reads: "Again and again, he falls at the Lord's Feet. Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve; such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well." This simply means that submission to God replaces "the stone idol...worship, flower offerings and divine adoration". It's actually saying the exact opposite of what you thought it was saying. Of course, some 'Sikkhs' believe that understanding the words of the Granth in their purity instead of through third-hand misconstruations is the action of an 'evil Manmukh'. Oh well.

Do not spend so much time on invisible borders. Instead work to ensure that your own borders of self-discipline and morals are strong and very much visible. Any sikkh of Guru Nanak would consider the world entire to be their "homeland", the company of humanity to be their sangat, and the Will of God to be their bed.

Kids from every community get up to this stuff. And there is more than one way to move a mountain. "The influence of the Western world" is what has given us democracy, secularism, freedom of speech and human rights bodies that stretch the globe. It's not good to just isolate one community/reason for why certain events happen. This statement implies that all Westerners live like donkeys, whereas the truth of the matter is that most of the nicest, most pleasant and people from respectable families I have met are my Western friends (whilst most of the complete prats in my life are coincidentally Sikkh...go figure). Yes, there is the third class way of doing things, but this exists all over the world and is not confined to just the West. If it's a failing, it's a human failing, and not a cultural failing. It's moral. Not religious.

the i guess we should... what about eating out and events?? Oh, my dear LionChild...that was my lame attempt at sarcastic humour If such a scripture truly existed, I think we'd all better re-evaluate the meaning of religion right now

Yes. It is written, in Chapter 15, Verse 6, that "he who does not eat from the plate of Iron will sit on a hot plae of Iron for all eternity in order to balance the universe". Jesus Christ...

There are no truths. Only stories.

When I was a kid, we had one of those old fashioned bells. Although...what type of bell it is has nothing to do with anything. Wow. That sounded like a personal insult. Lead by example, man