BABBAR KHALISTANI

Wishing u a very very happy birthday, Khalsa girl 1 May waheguru bless u wiv sikhi daan, kes daan, rehat daan, bibek daan, visah daan, bharosa daan and daanan sir daan naam daan. May wahguru also bless u with sewa, simran qurbani and above all a successful gursikhi jeevan. Take care Fateh.

I'd love to do something for this magazine.....wicked idea.

I've visited Gurdwara Nanaksar numerous bah honestly i found people there worship baba nand singh ji and isher singh ji more than god. Even you will find banners saying "dhan baba isher singh ji nand singh ji ho rahi hai tuhadi jai jai kar".......people visiting there usually pray to late mahapurakhs....even you can see a pic in previous posts of mahapurakh...... i am not against any mahapurakh or sant but it hurts when people follow them rather than the true akal purakh........unfortunately people there have idolised mahapurakhs and now it's like a samprada going on and on. Even if you visit lower sachkhand it's not for everyone ...there are a few terms and conditions like you should only enter if would recite few hundred japji sahib paths or few sukhmani sahib paths afterwards....such man made laws have nothing to do with sikhi and just create confusions. The place is magnificent but the sewadars have made their own samprada and follow sikhi their own style and are kindda encouraging their samprada more than sikhi itself.

If these messeges are sent across all gurdwaras and seminars be organised on sundays just like sikh awareness society does, wont it be extremely helpful....coz parents are the key for upbringing their children and if they are educated and are taught of the grave dangers that their children are facing that would help a great deal in putting an end to this problem.

Unity is the key. If there are a few singhs in each area who can stick together and act as a resistive force in their respective areas $ullas won't easily dare to mess with them coz they are used to inflicting terror in minds of weak people like hindus e.t.c but when it comes to fighting wiv singhs they very well know what to expect. The key as i said is unity. If youth forms groups (i m not sure if there are any) in our areas like southall, leeds, b'ham, liecester or other areas with sole aim of defending our people and acting in lines with law,informing police first hand and also not to deter from using force (coz they fear the very sight of singhs' kirpaans) then it's a matter of time that $ullas will vanish and won't mess with sikh boys or girls easily but if we stay divided like casts and jathebandis and keep on ripping each other's dastaars we'll always be targetted. Singhnis will also have to play their part in spreading awareness among fellow singhnis on how to deal with non sikh men in college or unis. The only solution is to get united under the aegis of sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj with the aim of protecting innocents from the devils. Gurdwaras can de used as centre points for spreading the messages and creating awareness.

I second this. If you go onto various other forums. You'll see they do the exact same thing. Some of you here would go as far as saying don't dicuss any other religion becasue it's against Sikhi. It's not We need to dicusss or what's the point of anything! With all these missionaries loitering around and islamic fundamentalists always raring for a discussion on religion and god, it has become a kind of necessity for sikhs outside punjab to know about other religions and it's comparisons with your religion so that if situation arises one can give a satisfactory reply in a conversation rather than standing quietly and clueless and listening to bull$hit which is generally aimed at proving our religion low or man made and theirs as word of god or true. I feel good debating skills and handsome knowledge act as logical counter attack weapons which a modern sikh should be always armed with.

I feel you guys are harsh on PSK. He is not bashing but he is sharing his views with us after putting in an effort on research on how the other religions see god and how they consider their religions to be only true and reject others. I feel he thanks waheguru again and again for blessing him with the sikhi way of life everytime he reads or knows about other religions coz they have so many flaws and are full of ego which has nothing to do with a religion. He is only sharing his views which are based on true facts and we label it as "bashing".Rather we should learn something about it and stop bashing him instead now and again.

Very true ....that's exactly what i was gonna post......these muslims just make up these kinda stories themselves and keep on posting on web forums under false names and fake identities to create a false image on conversions and for cussing other religions even on this forum i suspect people like bad girl .....

I feel he should be pronounced as tankhaiya. And for his own self he should accept his mistakes humbly and should give his remaining life to the panth and serve the panth by doing sikhi parchaar so that people remember him as a sikh scholar rather than an apostate. And kala afghana should also learn something. I know the people Ghagga taught coz the gianis at the gurdwara i attend are taught by him and they consider him to be a learned scholar and believe in such things as baba deep singh's head was not severed from his body,sant jarnail singh ji was not right....even i forced the giani of our gurdwara to shut up in debate on sant jarnail singh ji's personality and his movement against govt.....and these guys think that the very demand for khalistan is unnecesary. Really messed up and non practising caretakers of gurdwara. Let's do ardaas to waheguru to provide these people with correct thinking and instead serve the panth.

U say whatever regarding the gurus without any proof coz that's what your book teaches you.....give me a proof that guru nanak devji performed hajj at mecca or medina whateva i will do the same as guru's disciple , give me a proof that guru gobind singh ji accepted islam i will do it as per my guru's disciple even though i am not even sand of guru's disciple's feet, well if u think we never gave u a fight ask ur afghani people they used to say to their children "khamosh bash haria raghle"....haria means Sarda Hari Singh Nalwa who defeated your so called daring pathans, read about battle of saragarhi ...i provide you the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi, take some time to read this even bulle shah said "na kahun jab ki, na kahun tab ki baat kahun main ab ki ,agar na hote guru gobind singh sunnat hoti sab ki".......and where have u got these figures from "highest rate of sikhs converting to islam e.t.c"....provide a credible source.....but you won't coz u muslims are proffessional liars as taught to you in al-taqiyya,....if ur religion is true why do u need lies to save you....can false save the truth?, provide me a credible source of history which states that guru gobing singh ji fighted in army of bahadur shah,....prove these facts from a credible source of history i will accept ........but mohammad's legacy is undisputed.......everything i said about him i have quoted from your quran which you call as word of god.....even god would be ashamed of people like you and the book you promote which promotes even lowest crimes like sodomy......and that's why i say muhammad was a bloody paedophile,rapist, terrorist, child molestor....i don't say that .....quotes from quran suggest that ......now you prove your allegations from sro guru granth sahib. Dude it's now time to wake up to reality and give up thinking of this shameful cult......don't insult allah by linking your sins as teachings of allah.....this might be allah as muhammad(pi$$ be upon him) saw but he failed to see the true waheguru, allah or bhagwan. loser....

I hope you got the answers in previous post. You should better search for answers about your own devil faith created from a single devilish brain which is hell bent on destroying humanity. I never wanted to curse your cult and your so called prophet in strong manner but hatemongers like you just force other people to hate you and your so called religion of pi$$. Answer a few questions: Wasn't muhammad( be upon him) a paedophile? Wasn't muhammad(be upon him) a rapist? Wasn't muhammad(be upon him) a terrorist? Wasn't muhammad(be upon him) a sex addict? Didn't muhammad believe in sodomy and promise you young boys along wiv virgins in his self created jannat? Finally was muhammad(pi$$ be upon him) the prophet of the true lord? if yes why did he justify paedophilia, sodomy hate, terrorism, taking women as booty in war . He says alcohol is banned for you here coz it's intoxicating but promises 'rivers of wine' coz it won't be intoxicating....i wished sumbody had taught him alcohol is intoxicating. I SLAM islam.........it sux Read this: http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html The X-RATED PARADISE OF ISLAM In this article I shall describe the Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Prophet Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth. To prove my point I have taken verses from the Koran and quotes from the Hadiths. VIRGINS (HOURIS) Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 78:31 As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup. Koran 37:40-48 ...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches. Koran 44:51-55 ...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins) Koran 52:17-20 ...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them... Koran 55:56-57 In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?" Koran 55:57-58 Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?" Koran 56:7-40 ...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. " Koran 55:70-77 "In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before.. In the Hadiths, Mohammed goes one step further and expands the promise of virgins to include a free sex market where there is no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women and young boys are on display as if in a fruit market where you can choose the desired ripeness. Quote from Hadiths Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34 Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them." YOUNG BOYS Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 52:24 Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded. Koran 56:17 Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness. Koran 76:19 And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls. As mentioned in my previous article, famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality. As an example I am including a poem in 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas: O the joy of sodomy! So now be sodomites, you Arabs. Turn not away from it-- therein is wondrous pleasure. Take some coy lad with kiss-curls twisting on his temple and ride as he stands like some gazelle standing to her mate. A lad whom all can see girt with sword and belt not like your <admin-profanity filter activated> who has to go veiled. Make for smooth-faced boys and do your very best to mount them, for women are the mounts of the devils Need I say anything more after this colorful rendition by Abu Nuwas ? WATER One of the major problems in the desert of Arabia was shortage of pure water. Mohammed knew very well that to the Arabians, fresh water was an item of luxury. So promising them abundant pure water, river, fountains and springs in paradise would defintely lure them to murder, loot and plunder people of other religions in this life. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 13:35 This is the paradise which the righteous have been promised: it is watered by running streams.. Koran 3:198 As for those that fear their Lord, theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams in which they will abide for ever, and a goodly welcome from God... Koran 3:136 ...These shall be rewarded with forgiveness from their Lord and with gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell forever. Blessed is the reward of those who do good works.. Koran 15:45 The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear flowing water) Koran 22:23 As for those who have faith and who do good work, God will admit them to gardens watered by running streams.. Koran 47:15 Here is a Parable Of the Garden which the righteneous are promised: In it are rivers of water incorruptible; Koran 55:50-51 In them each will be two springs flowing free; Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 55:66-67 In them will be Two Springs pouring forth water in continuous abundance:Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 44:51-55 As for the righteous, they shall be lodged in peace together amidst gardens and fountains... Koran 56:7-40 ...They shall recline on couches raised on high in the shade of thornless Lote trees and talhs; amidst gushing water... WINE Mohammed had to find more selling points besides virgins, young boys and plenty of water. What good would be of Paradise without rivers of wine for his followers? Wine was an extremely precious commodity in the dry deserts of Arabia where it was rare to find vineyards. Mohammed had a problem here- he had to include wine in his 'Paradise-Package' but how could he include it in the list when Allah had declared intoxicants as sinful. The only way to do this was to somehow claim that the wine in the promised Paradise was not intoxicating and therefore not sinful. Never mind the fact that wine by nature contains alcohol which is intoxicating. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 47:15 Here is a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised. In it are...rivers of wine... Koran 37:40-48 But the true servants of God shall be well provided for,...they shall be served with goblet filled at a gushing fountain, white and delicious to those who drink it. It will neither dull their senses nor befuddle them. Koran 56:7-40 They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shalt wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine: Koran 83:23-26 The righteous will surely dwell in bliss. Reclining upon soft couches they will gaze around them: and in their faces you shall mark the glow of joy. They shall be given a pure wine to drink, securely sealed, whose very dregs are musk... FRUITS So far Mohammed has presented a very appetizing picture of Paradise, but then it struck him that sex is no fun on an empty stomach. Besides that one needs lots of nutrition in order to have the energy to perform with so many Houris and young boys. The prophet was an expert on this subject having honoured every one of his numerous wives and mistresses with a nightly visitation on one single night. Besides the only fruits he had ever gotten to taste in this life was some dates and dry pomegranates. So heaven had to be furbished with an inexhaustible supply of every variety of fruits. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 13:35 This is the paradise which the righteous have been promised.. eternal are its fruits, and eternal are its shades.. Koran 37:40-48 But the true servants of God shall be well provided for, festing on fruit and honoured in the gardens of delight... Koran 43:68-73 ...Such will be the garden of which ye are made heirs for your deeds. Ye shall have therein abundance of fruit, from which ye shall have satisfaction. Koran 47:15 Here is a Parable Of the Garden which the righteneous are promised: ...In it are rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; And rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; And grace from their Lord.. Koran 55:47-49 Containing all kinds of trees and delights.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 55:52-53 In them there will be fruits of every kind, two and two. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 55:54-55 ...The fruit of the gardens will be near and easy to reach. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 55:68-69 In them will be Fruits, And dates and pomegranates: Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 44:51-55 ...Secure against all ills, they shall call for every kind of fruit.. Koran 56:7-40 They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shalt wait on them immortal youths with ...fruits of their own choices and flesh of fowls that they relish.. Koran 76:13-21 ...Reclining there upon soft couches, they shall feel neither the scorching heat nor the biting cold. Trees will spread their shade around them, and fruits will hang in clusters over them... But the best was yet to come. The highlight of life in Islamic Pardise is the fact that one doesn't have to go to the toilet. All merciful Allah had miraculously provides a much better system for getting rid of body waste. You simple sweat it out (probably after all that sex or belch after consuming all that fruit and wine) Quote from the Hadiths: Sahih Muslim Book 39, Number 6798, Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: I heard Allah's Apostle (pbuh) as saying that the inmates of Paradise would eat and drink but would neither spit, nor pass water, nor void excrement, nor suffer catarrh. It was said: Then, what would happen with food? Thereupon he said: They would belch and sweat (and it would be over with their food), and their sweat would be that of musk and they would glorify and praise Allah as easily as you breathe." WEALTH Mohammed wanted to ensure that his followers would not be obsessed with 'worldly things' in this life. So he made sure that they have plenty of worldly things to pursue in heaven. The relevant verses from the Koran are: Koran 22:23 As for those who have faith and who do good work, God will admit them to gardens watered by running streams. They shall be decked with pearls and bracelets of gold, and arrayed in garments of silk. Koran 43:68-73 Enter ye the Garden, Ye and your wives, in beauty and rejoicing. To them will be passed round, dishes and goblets of gold: there will be there all that soul could desire, all that the eyes could delight in: and ye shall abide there in.. Koran 55:70-77 ..They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ? Koran 44:51-55 As for the righteous, they shall be lodged in peace together amidst gardens and fountains, arrayed in rich silks and fine brocade... Koran 55:54-55 They will recline on carpets, whose inner linings will be of rich brocade... Koran 56:7-40 They shall recline on jewelled couches.. Koran 76:13-21 ..They shall be arrayed in garments of fine green silk and rich brocade,and adorned with bracelets of silver.. Mohammed's promise of an Islamic Paradise that glittered with the fulfillment of all sorts of wordly desires and sense enjoyment was nothing but a sinister ploy to recruit those who had no hope or expectation of ever getting these things in their present lives. Knowing that they are assured of such a Paradise simply because they follow Islam, Muslims can go around committing murder, rape plunder and loot. It is the picture of this paradise that has motivated Muslims over the centuries to cut down people of other religions, to desecrate their places of worship and mistreat them in the name of Allah. Even after death, the spritually deprived Prophet of Islam could not see beyond wine, women and food, leave alone exploring spiritual heights of the soul. UR GREEDY CULT SUX......AND SO DOES THE PROPHET OF HATRED, PAEDOPHILIA,GREED,LUST........the list in endless

I always wanted that never forget 84 one bah couldn't get it.......even mailed akaal productions bah they r really sust.......maybe they have something better to do rather than sending me hoodies

HA HA..........I fink i need to take a printout of this article and paste on ma refrigerator along with ramadan timetable.

I wonder if monty's promoting true sikhism or his baba's religion.....time will tell....his autobiography will play a key role.

I have heard from people who have analysed dasam granth that there are such things in dasam granth bani that are really disgusting ...... and by the way how can a guru write such things who had such a high character and who once himself took roop of a security guard in order to protect his disciple joga singh from going astray(to a prostitute).....in my previous post i didn't just blame bahman blindly in order to cover up the issue but that's truth.... there's another incident when bahman tried to pragat devi but couldn't and when guruji asked him why didn't devi give darshan he cleverly said that devi would only be pragat if some holy person would sacrifice himself thinking that just like his father guru teg bahadur ji guru gobind singh ji would also sacrifice himself and that would serve his purpose as well but guru ji was all knowing and said you are bahman who can be more holy than you??? so the bahman fled away....so bahman has never accepted sikhi gleefully coz it directly condemns hinduism and it's blind rituals and gurbani has also rejected as bahman being supreme, ganga ishnan, janeo, fasting and also labelled hindu andha in tuk "ihMdU AMn@w qurkU kwxw ] The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. hindoo anHaa turkoo kaanaa. duhW qy igAwnI isAwxw ] The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. duhaaN tay gi-aanee si-aanaa. if we look at past bahman has always been enemy of sikhi right from the time of sri guru nanak dev ji when prior to his wedding guru nanak devji was delibrately made to sit near a crooked decaying mud-wall which was about to fall. The idea was to bury Guru Nanak Dev Ji under the mud wall by giving it a little push which gives the evidence that bahman's enemity with sikhi started centuries ago...it's just a matter of fact that bahman at that time didn't get enough opportunities and today when is in power is showing his true colours and is hell bent on eliminating sikhi Back to topic i would just say guys he was Guru gobind singh ji not muhammad that would talk about virgins and young boys. It's only bahman's tricks that have and continue to decieve us even today. For more info on confusion about dasam granth check this link: http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/dasm-b.html

Lot of people in punjab know about Col. G.S Sandhu and his heroic deed how he single handedly campaigned against dreaded poohla who had full support of govt as he helped govt during it's period of terrorism. The reason maybe he's not that popular among commom people unfortunately is that he has not set up a dera and doesn't give darshan nor has name like sant e.t.c and it's a must in punjab these days. And these bahmans are now feeling pain in their a$$E$ coz after getting poohla behind bars Col G S Sandhu has now taken up the issue of gurudom, santdom as he elaborated on tour of america....an also next on his agenda is the case of human rights abuses is punjab ...these issues which direcly against govt deeds....and now when panth is getting to know him more as he is touring abroad and people of panth fully supporting him these govt of india agents or rss agents are coming up with new stories to confuse and create a divide among people on his undisputed personality in order to stop people suporting him especially financially coz as said interview in a very straightforward manner that he needs funds to keep things going. Media sewa is actually doing indian media's sewa.......loser

ONLY SIKHS shud not go......can't say about naamdhaaris......they'r even lower than hindus.....at least hindus remember their dietes whereas these shameless people had put their head under bibi indra's chapli' and rejected their true guru.

For us it might seem comic but what for the non muslims who would have read this article??........would have surely caused a lot more misconceptions about sikhism.

faithfreedom.org is also not bad though

Conversion tactics are in their blood....they don't need to be taught to muslims.......yesterday one of my mates delibrately asked me at work as i was chewing gum "you are not fasting?" after my reply in 'no' one mischeviously said so in your religion it is " khao peo aaish karo balle balle" and i thought i'd better reply to stop this brainwashing bid ....i said special khana -eating by killing animals is for you we guys are vegitarians, peena-we are banned frm alcohol but i feel you guys will get rivers of wine in jannat as it was not easily available in arabia, aish- again for you.....4 wives here, 72 in jannat, no ban on smoking and tobbacco.....so basically khao peo aish karo suits you guys well we don't have this concept in sikhism.......and poor guy couldn't reply....though later on i felt sorry coz i knew i had hurt him but he needed it coz next time he'll think twice before messing up with anyone on religious issues......all muslims want is to initiate a talk on islam to impress others and they are taught well about so called authenticity and truthfulness of their religion and an ordinary or ignorant person with knowledge of his/her own religion often finds hards to argue with them and most of them fall in the trap.

To expose the rss and goi i have shown a cd to a afew of my friends who really got shaken up. I think a lot of guys here might have seen it it is "tabeh ross jageyo" a lecture by Gursikh foundation spokesman Dr sukhpreet singh udoke held in malton gurdwara. Those who have not seen must see the video.It is also available on various sikh sites. It was an eye opener for me and i forwaded the cd to a lot of my mates plus that i copy sant ji bhindranwale vidoes and speeches and distribute speeches to my friends and people i know. I think if we all start educating each others by any means it would be great. I want to see the fire for freedom burning in all sikhs' hearts.

I'm sure these idiots might have some evil plans for us also like targetting our girls, populating our stronghold areas e.t.c. Just a guess though

Well said cheema....and in addition to that we also have loads of traitors like badal which muslims are fortunate not to have in fact their ministers which include the present chief minister of jammu and kashmir ghulam nabi azad are also appealing for mercy whereas in bhai davinderpal singh bhullar case neither ruling party nor the opposition except simarnjit singh mann are interested in his case despite all knowing he is innocent.Mere demonstrations by foreigner sikhs can't help........highups have to also apply some pressure to convince stubborn delhi.

Prof Darshan singh

wub: Ditto that's like me And i m not surprised that you are from england.....coz this is where the most of the trouble is and you can easily develop this kind of hard feelings but u need to do bani to prevent this from developing into hatred and always remember they also have waheguru's jyot in them "sab mein jyot jyot hai soi" .Well i don't particularily hate em but i just kinda for following sikhi sake try not to hate them or at least try to stay neutral. It is easy to comment on this topic sitting from canada or u.s.a without knowing what's happened with our sisters here in england, how many are sitting in pakistan from many years and forced into prostitution ,how many have suffered and are still suffering in silence ...we don't really feel the pain coz we don't consider them our real sisters just for once think in detail this happening to your real sister and you'd feel the pain if u have even a little ankh in u ......the other day i was reading the topic"is my mate right or wrong" on this forum where a sister had been enticed and ditched by a muslim after having a kid coz the muslim guy had been paid for that....now did anyone here give it a thought about what's going on? how big this game is? people are delibrately chasing our girls and being paid for doing bepatti of our sisters and we don't even give it a thought...it's actually been at least a decade since this is happening coz i have read stories dating back to 95-96 and still muslims are going after sikh girls. Can't really believe we are the sons of warriors ......as for muslims and i don't say all are same but in fact most of them are same coz their motive is same and even false tactics are permissible for them.