>Bikramjit Singh<

It is worth noting that even though the Gurus used the word Azraeel they place him within the sphere of Karma and Reincarnation and not within the Islamic day of judgement belief. It seems that the Gurus used the name Azraeel to represent Dharamraj or Yama when preaching to Muslims

Kurtas wrote I shudder to think what kind of papers you are on about, maybe the ones that say that Khalsa means pure so basically it means the 'pure' of heart will rule..not necessarily Sikhs! Are these the papers you are on about? Since I appear to be naive in thinking Khalsa means Amritdhari Sikhs maybe you can enlighten both myself and the other ignorant members here and tell us what Raj Karega Khalsa means? That would be great sewa on your part Its best to modify ones views in the light of any new knowledge that maybe shared in a forum discussion.. not reply with snide remarks. Once again none so blind as those who refuse to see. I have shown you that the idea of a sovereign Sikh state predates your few hotheads by many decades, yet you only repeat the same old drivel. Khushwant Singh is a bootlicker of the Indian Congress party as well as India. He gives many speeches and his views in these speeches are changable according to those listening and those paying the tab. His views on Sikhism has gone from his view that Sikhism is an independent religion to being a sect of Hinduism. Yes you are right he did give a speech against Operation Bluestar yet by the 90's he was a ardent fan of KPS Gill praising his campaign on genocide against the Sikh youth.

Our Guru is saying that sovereignty is a must for religion to survive, or it perishes. Sovereignty meaning self government becasue at that time the Mughals were controling everthing even the Gurudwaras. 95717[/snapback] So what about sovereignity now? Or is India such a utopia that we don't need to rely of the words above?

The same colonies who despite suffering in 84 voted by and large for the Congress party in the last elections ? 95724[/snapback] And I suppose you've gone and talked to all these victims and foundout who they 'by and large' voted for. You obviously don't have a clue about Indian elections otherwise you would not be making such a foolish claim

Then why don't you advocate for the dismantling of the seperate nations of pakistan and india? That would be a start, there probably use to be no border per se between any country in asia, the middle east and europe. You would advocate for the dismantling of all those nations too right? You live in a home with borders, you have walls, a property line. You take care to respect the autonomy of your neighbours by not treating their place as if it was your home. BUT this does not mean that you don't live with everyone. Think about it a bit more and elaborate on what you have posted above. 95700[/snapback] Great reponse Buddasingh Ji. Question for untitled singh ..what do you do when the verse Raj Karega Khalsa comes up in Ardas? Do you just keep silent and miss it out of your Ardas? 95703[/snapback] I suggest you read about "Raj Karega Khalsa" in a bit more depth. It is certainly does not mean what you are espousing. Also Raj Karega Khalsa certainly does not equal Khalistan. The Khalsa has existed for centuries wheras khalistan is the brianchild of a few radicals (many of whom were quite happy to be MLA etc in India until they passed over for ministerial roles just like those who advocated Sikhistan in the 1960s). Also I have never understood how anyone can corrupt the word Khalsa to Khalis. Can anyone explain how the Khalsa was corrupted to Khalis. 95716[/snapback] Raj Karega Khalsa = rule of the Khalsa Khalistan = rule of the Khalsa Maybe you should be doing the indepth reading FYI Khalistan is not the brainchild of a few radicals, where have you been doing your indepth reading? A sovereign Sikh state whether it be Khalistan or a Sikhistan has been an issue since the 1920's when the Babbar Akalis started their campaign. In 1947 even the bootlicker in chief Khushwant Singh states that a majority of the Sikhs were in favour of the sovereign Sikh state. The Sikh leadership were checkmated by both the Hindus and the Muslims. The concept of a state ruled by the Sikhs did not die with the annexation of Panjab in 1849. Bhai Maharaj Singh in the 1840's, Baba Ram Singh in the 1870's, Maharaj Duleep Singh in the 1880's right through to Sant Jarnail Singh in the 1980's, each was an attempt to bring back the lost rule of the Khalsa.

Then why don't you advocate for the dismantling of the seperate nations of pakistan and india? That would be a start, there probably use to be no border per se between any country in asia, the middle east and europe. You would advocate for the dismantling of all those nations too right? You live in a home with borders, you have walls, a property line. You take care to respect the autonomy of your neighbours by not treating their place as if it was your home. BUT this does not mean that you don't live with everyone. Think about it a bit more and elaborate on what you have posted above. 95700[/snapback] Great reponse Buddasingh Ji. Question for untitled singh ..what do you do when the verse Raj Karega Khalsa comes up in Ardas? Do you just keep silent and miss it out of your Ardas?

waooooooooooooooooooooooo i second that.. waooooooooooooooooooooooo.. there is no place of wahabism in sikhi(nor there was or will be)))) ..waoooooooooooooooo !!!!!! :T: :T: :T: Sikhsangat rocks !!!!!!!!!!!!! 95531[/snapback] Neo you seem to have a very limited vocabulary, yours posts seem to be littered with the words <Edited>, taleban, zealot..lol

Sorry Bro..btw Bhaji you married yet..

Yeah Japmans is a 76 year old pensioner.. got all his kids married off and is now relaxing during his 'sunset' years. Goes to Punjab for a few months. Anjaan is a 63 year old AuntyJi who wears thick glasses and sometimes forgets them at home and hence the need to run after hitting yet another van/truck/advertising sign/pedestrian Watch out Posh cos Anjaan is well known for keeping her vicholan eyes open for girls/boys of marriagable age so she might just have a 'changa munda' for you from bulberhampton

WJKK WJKF Sangatji I was just wondering whether anyone has tried their hand at translating any of the Nitnem Banis such as Japji Sahib into another language? I don't mean into English but another language say like Swedish or Norweigen? The reason I ask is that I have a friend who is Swedish and has recently taken Amrit. As English is not her first language she does find some English translations difficult to understand. Looking around the net there aren't many sites in languages other than English or Punjabi which give any info on Sikhi let alone provide translations. So I was wondering whether any of the Sangat whose languages are not English or Punjabi have thought of translating any of the Nitnem Banis to their languages. I know a few of the Sangat are from Sweden, Norway and Denmark and I think we also have someone from Germany. It would be nice if we could have translations of the Nitnem Banis in other languages on the net. What are the Sangats views? GurFateh Bikramjit

What can I say guys? The Anjaan Posse is a select band of people hand picked by Anjaan to ..er.. er..do her uni assignments..

Wot?? Anjaan the accident wali Bibi?? She of the hit and runs?? Only joking.. I think she texted all her friends about it.. so if you're reading about it and you didn't know then it means you ain't part of the Anjaan Posse!! :nihungsmile: :e: :T:

WJKK WJKF One thing I don't understand is why the Sikh Federation themselves have not got their own candidates to stand in sikh majority constituencies. With Labour, Lib Dems and Tories you get the same old BS. It would be good if we could have a few Keshadhari MPs in the UK. Btw anyone who lives in Heston or feltham or has family or friends living there ask them to consider voting for the Bibi Satnam Kaur Khalsa. Even if your family are old time labour supporters it's worth while to vote to try and get a Gursikh Bibi into parliament. http://www.libdems.org.uk/party/people/per...inyourarea.html GurFateh Bikramjit

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Happy Vaisakhi to all the members of the Forum Gurfateh Bikramjit

It was the Muslims who in the 90's were the first to start denying that they are 'Asians' but now when it suits their purpose to have Sikhs and Hindus to also get the flak for Muslim extremism they now want 'Asians' to unite. I'm glad that the Sikh Federation representative didn't get caught up in the Muslim game.

WJKK WJKF I have just read some newspaper reports of the reactions of the victims' relatives after the not guilty verdict. We can all understand and sympathise with their loss but the reactions of some are totally idiotic. They cannot accept the verdicts and instead of putting pressure on the Canadian govt for an inpartial enquiry some seem to be hell bent on carrying out a campaign of vilification against two Sikhs who have been found not guilty of the crime they were charged with. I have highlighted some quotes from the following news story I read. My own personal opinion is that the GOI did it and this view has been strengthened by the not guilty verdicts as well as the judgement made by the judge and the fact that the canadian govt has tried to put to innocent men in prison based on the testimony of three people who had a grudge against them and whose evidence was flimsy and who were described as unreliable. After 1984 there was a worldwide campaign amongst Sikhs to boycott Air India. I myself have never flown by Air India and I would rather pay more and go by another airline rather than fly the airline of the country which did so much harm to our religion and which murdered so many of our fellow Sikhs. My view is that the victims chose to travel on Air India making a statement of their support for India at a time when the wounds of the Sikhs were still fresh. It would indeed be the supreme irony if the same government and country they chose to support brought down that plane so as to malign the Khalistan movement. GurFateh Bikramjit Govt too demoralised to appeal: Relatives Arthur J. Pais in New York | March 19, 2005 02:02 IST Surjit Singh Kalsi has been praying at home and the Surrey gurdwara the whole of last week, as he has done for the last 20 years. Kalsi, the secretary of the gurdwara, has been praying that the soul of his cousin, killed in the Air India Kanishka explosion would continue to have peace. He also prayed that the two men facing judgment in a Vancouver court will be punished for plotting and abetting the worst mass murder in Canadian history, in which at least 80 of the 331 victims, including two bag handlers in Tokyo's Narita Airport, were children aged under 12 years. He had been waiting for the moment, he said, when he could look into the faces of the two men charged with planning the explosions and mutter: "You will endlessly rot in hell." Verdict has shattered everything But when he came out of the courtroom after the judgment was passed, he was instead left wondering if he should believe in God at all. "I don't feel like going to my gurdwara or any gurdwara for that matter," he said. "I ask God, 'How can we trust you?' I ask God, 'How can you let this judge not punish these mass murderers?'" "My cousin Indira has been murdered twice, first when these terrorists, who call themselves Sikhs, blew up the plane and then now on Wednesday, when the judge acquitted Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajai Singh Bagri. I don't know if any good will come out even if the government appeals," said Kalsi. If the government could not produce credible witnesses when Malik and Bagri were in a prison, he wondered, how could it make its case stronger in an appeal. "If at all there is an appeal," he added. The government has a month's time to appeal. Justice Kripal disappointed But many relatives of the victims in the explosion that killed 329 people, who were aboard Air India's Kanishka, felt that the government, after having spent Canadian $100 million on the investigation and prosecution, might not have the will to go on an appeal. The judgment has been a severe blow to the prosecution and it might need more than a month to gather its wits, relatives said. "If witnesses were not ready to speak before the judge when Malik and Bagri were in the prison, will they have the courage to speak out now when Malik and Bagri are celebrating their victories?" wondered a grieving relative in Vancouver who asked not to be identified "I think everyone is demoralised." "If the government has not been able to produce strong witnesses during the last 20 years," he wondered, "how can it succeed? Will it try for another 20 years?" "I think a second trial will unnecessarily give hope to some families that justice could be found the second time but I think it is better to close this business down." 'He would never bomb a plane' Indira Kaur was very close to her cousin, Surjit. Her father Rattan Singh Kalsi said he almost fainted when he heard the verdict. "People were sobbing in the court room," he continued. "I almost ran out, I wanted to breathe some fresh air." He said he had suffered a nervous breakdown following Indira's death. "And I felt I can't have another nervous breakdown." "I am not sure if any good will come out of the appeal," he added, "but if a public inquiry is held, much of what the government says is classified will be revealed, and that might lead to something conclusive and good." Rattan Singh Kalsi who spoke from his nephew Surjit's home said he would return to his home in London, Ontario, about 3000 miles away. We hope there will be an appeal He added: "I am going back home thinking that the so called heroes of Khalistan are still walking around proudly, that among us there are murderers prospering and conspiring, and yet nobody seems to do anything about them." "But I also tell myself that they have been acquitted by a small court," he said, his voice choking. "I believe there is a far bigger court and is presided over by God. These men cannot escape God's justice." "God doesn't need to deal with shaky witnesses and judges who cannot see the obvious truth." "I am telling you these mass murderers will be cursed by our gurus including Nanak Sahib." If the government spent Canadian $100 million, it was because of its own inefficiency, suggested a few of the embittered relatives. It was not as if the government really wanted to find the guilty ones, they added. "Had this been a tragedy that affected white, mainstream Anglo-Saxon Canadians, I think the response would have been very different," said Lata Pada, who lost her husband and two children. 'Why are we always the victims?' Sanjay Lazar whose parents were also killed, said Ottawa had perceived the explosion and loss of lives "as an Indian tragedy, not a Canadian one." Similar sentiments have been echoed many times during the past 20 years and the government and investigating agencies have consistently denied the allegations saying that the biggest obstacle to the investigation and filing of the charges was the wall of silence in the fractious Sikh community in Canada. And yet some of the community leaders, including moderate Sikhs like Sarwan Singh Randhawa, who is also the general secretary of Khalsa Diwan Society, said they still retained some hope. "They have Inderjit Singh Reyat behind the bars for many years and he has confessed to some degree," Randhawa said. "The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are saying they will continue the investigation. So, even now there might be a miracle." The verdict: The families' agony But like Surjit Singh Kalsi, his uncle Rattan and many others who spoke to rediff.com, Randhawa is also worried if the government will try to beef up the existing witnesses and run into the problems as in the just concluded trial. Judge Ian Bruce Josephson had a lot of trouble with the credibility of the sole witness against Malik, who, apart from various businesses, also ran a credit society and school. The woman, whose name was protected, had testified that she "had a close relationship" with Malik and he had admitted in 1997, when she confronted him with a news report, that he had been deeply involved in the planning and execution of the plan. The woman reportedly had turned against Malik when he called her a <admin-profanity filter activated>. But she admitted during the cross examination that she still loved him and respected him. "That surprise edges toward incredulity," the judge observed. "I am unable to rely on her evidence." The government had also tried to coax Inderjit Singh Reyat, the only person convicted in the Air India bombing, to reveal crucial information on Malik and Bagri. But Reyat, who has always said he was innocent of the killings, kept dodging the questions and gave confusing answers that led the authorities to brand him a liar. Judge Josephson even called him an "unmitigated liar." Reyat has said that he has been made a scapegoat because the government wanted to mollify the victims' families. We wanted the accused to be hanged Reyat, who had already served 10 years for a bombing on June 23 at Tokyo's Narita airport, has also served two of the five-year sentence handed out three years ago for his role in the explosion that killed 329 people on Kanishka off the Irish coast.. "His evidence (in Malik and Bagri's trial) was patently and pathetically fabricated in an attempt to minimize his involvement in his crime to an extreme degree," Josephson said in his ruling. "His hollow expression of remorse must have been a bitter pill for the families of the victims. "If he harbored even the slightest degree of genuine remorse, he would have been more forthcoming." When police questioned Reyat soon after the explosion and asked him about abetting militant Talwinder Singh Parmar, he had asserted he did not know anyone with that name. But when the detectives showed him pictures of being with Parmar, he admitted the latter was his friend. He also said that Parmar had asked him to build an explosive device to be used for "a big job in India." But Reyat said he had no idea Parmar was asking him to build a bomb to blow up an airline. Disastrous beginning, unfortunate end Parmar, who fled to Pakistan and then arrived in India, was killed reportedly in an encounter with the police in India in 1992. Some accounts have him dying in police custody. Reyat, who moved to England soon after the explosion and began working as an electrician in a car factory, was extradited to Canada after his three-year fight while in custody against extradition. His wife and three children too came back to Canada. According to court documents, Malik paid over $50,000 to Reyat's wife Satnam Kaur Reyat. Five years ago, she pleaded guilty to defrauding the government of at least $109,000 in welfare payments. Several moderate Sikhs in Vancouver said that Reyat and his family is too beholden to Malik that the jailed electrician will not rat on his benefactor and hero. Could it be also possible that the witnesses, who had something or the other compromising in their past like violation of immigration status, were trying to please the government on one hand, and protect Malik and Bagri on the other hand, wondered some observers. "If the government will try to change Reyat's mind, I doubt it will succeed," said Surjit Singh Khalsa with a sigh. "And I doubt it will nab other conspirators and witnesses "

why are you so hell bent on believing that they are guilty? I dunno how it runs in canada, but down here in the states you're innocent until proven guilty, and when ur proven innocent, you are believed to be innocent. Dunno what innocent means up there, but down here it means free of doing a crime. 89337[/snapback] Might be somthing to do with one of the aquitted being on that documentary last year making disgusting speaches about killing 50,000 Hindus. Statements like that show he is not a great advert for Sikhi just like the IRA, INLA were not great adverts for Catholics. 89385[/snapback] Before making silly statements find out what it was like to live through 1984. There is a big difference between someone expressing their anger in a stupid way and planting a bomb on a plane killing 329 people. Thank God the trial was before an experienced judge and not a bunch of idiots like mahavir in a jury who think there is no need to prove guilt because 'everyone knows they are guilty' If you live in Canada why don't you repeat your views on the TV or maybe even give an interview to Kim Bolan the resulting law suit should be an open and shut case and you might end up as another bankrupt like most of the prosecution witnesses

WJKK WJKF Although the decision of the committee is a good step but I think they have gone about it the wrong way. Rather that issue a directive like this out of the blue they should have put a time limit on it coming into effect. Say like six months or a year. Then they should have conducted parchar in the area to convince those who have cut their hair to come back to Sikhi. Apart from the parents, the Gurdwaras have to share some of the blame for the youth not knowing much about Sikhi. I can understand the reason for the ban in the first place, if the Gurdwara committee is following the Rehat Maryada then it has to ensure that anyone who has an Anand Karaj at a Gurdwara has to be Amritdhari. The committee is just going part way by trying to ensure that the couple are just Keshdhari rather than Amritdhari. The problem has been that in last few decade non-Sikhs ( not monai ) have been getting married in a Gurdwara and some then have a ceremony in a church or a Mandir depending on the religion of one of the partner. This makes a mockery of the Anand Karaj.

You're right Roop Singh is a great bloke. I remember him from the Sikhi camps in the 90's. I liked the way he discussed 1984 and what an impact it had on him. It's unfortunate that today we have Nang fools mouthing off about how Santji was wrong and calling the Gursikhs who gave their lives as fanatics and terrorists

This is so funny man! I was at one of the Nang lectures last november and Lallesvari was so buddy buddy with the Nangs talking about how all the sampardyay got along with each other. Looks likes he's just studied a bit harder and found out how Nihangs hated the Nirmalas and now he's chosen to disassociate himself from the Nangs. Typical of the lets make up Sikhi as we go along attitude of the Nangs

Akaal108 I'm not bringing Sikhsangat into anything just making a comment. Strange that sitting in Canada you think that you have a much better understanding of what is happening in the UK than people who actually live here! Nice to hear that Lallesvari has now amended his views but as S S Jhamka veer wrote the damage has already been done, just as rats jump the sinking ship so you will see many of the former ideologues of sanatanism distancing themselves from the Nangs. Gurfateh Bikramjit

just wait for his subsection on his site about nihangs. :e: narsingha and his company will have to rewrite their website 88877[/snapback] Paramjeet Singh Ji Having read Amrit Singh's views I have no doubt that his personal knowledge is immense and he will be able to effectively counter the Nang team. I think you should also offer a seat to Bahadur Singh aka Shaka Nyorai who claims to know Braj Bhasha but thinks that the word Panth means a collection of religions..lol It would be good to see the Nang team pit their 'knowledge' against someone who has such a good grounding in Sikh history and historical texts as Amrit Singh has. From what I have seen of their lectures it consists of someone reading off from lecture notes while another person operates an overhead projector. But I also think they will ignore the challenge, when people set out to deceive others they always aim their lectures towards those who are not so knowledgable, they usually run off when confronted with someone who has knowledge about the subject they are lecturing about. GurFateh Bikramjit

I also thought the invitation to Nihang Teja Singh aka Narsingha was a challenge for a debate which having read Amrit Singh's posts as well as Narsingha usual contribution to any debate ...' you are a fanatic..etc etc' I think Amrit Singh will wipe the floor with Narsingha. I doubt Narsingha will accept the challenge.. empty pots make the most noise. Narsingha has a big history of mouthing off and issuing challenges and then running off Btw give my regards to Amrit Singh, nice to see that Gursikhs in India are also doing their bit against the views of the Nangs GurFateh Bikramjit

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! I think it depends on which constituency you are in. I think there is a Sikh bibi who wears Keski standing for the Lib dems in Heston, so if any of you live there I think you should seriously consider voting for her. Wouldn't it be great if for once we get a proper Singh or Singhni into parliament rather then the usual indian workers association / ex communist monay who only put 'singh' in their name when they need your votes and then lick the indian government's boots. I live in Ealing-Southall and the present MP is a waste of space. He's only good at getting behzti ( not the play ) from his leadership, his only claim to ever being in the news was when the labour party tried to get him to move from his usual seat in the house which was a few rows being Tony Blair and put a young good looking woman MP in his seat so that Tony Blair would look good!! Last time around (2001) there were two other Sikhs ( monay though ) who stood so that made the election interesting. It would be great if some party put up a Singh or Singhni they would get my vote even if it was the bhang party GurFateh Bikramjit

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! First the joke-; Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before. Yeah I get deja vu feelings sometimes. It's usually either with places or situations. Many people think that the deja vu you have at some places where you have never been before could have been something to do with reincarnation in that you've been to that place in a previous life. GurFateh Bikramjit