NavjotSinghKhalsa

I know I should not be posting on this site since I am NO longer a YOUTH, according to some of the "younger" members of this forum, but I could not resist this thread of Tapoban forum bashing. Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji has clearly explained the situation in a post on Tapoban.org , see : Kulbir Singh - Double IDs. Hopefully it subdues some of the paranoia about the Tapoban site, or maybe not. Last month was Waheguroo Network ! This month is Tapoban.org, What's it going to be next month ? Where are all the promises of balance and neutrality some of you were harping about ?

Bhai Jagjit Singh Ji, Below, is some further information about this Pashaura 'Singh'. For the sake for a degree, he shamlessly twisted and distorted facts about Sikh History, for which he was summoned to Akal Takht Sahib. Even Dr. Dilgeer, who I am no fan of, referrs to Pashaura as an anti-Sikh writer along with McLeod, Oberoi, and others. Here is what S.S. Sodhi and J.S. Mann say about these western scholars : Source : http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052004/psycho_...ysis_mcleod.htm Anyways, Pashaura is the last person anyone should consult over issues such as RagMalaa.

Amandeep Singh said : Amandeep Singh , in case you did not know (but I am sure you do), the "dangling balls" on hooks you are mentioning are a very recent design. Perhaps not more than thirty years old. The older "Chand Torrays" were at least four seperate pieces, the central Miri-Piri & Khanda piece, the two handles both connected to a SarbLoh Torra. I don't know your reason to attribute modern day Chand-Torray with Puratans Singhs. They are not from the same era. I assume you might have the same issues with Baba Nihal Singh of Tarna Dal as the Nangs in UK do. Yes it sometimes is hard for Budhal Dal fans to acknowledge that there is Gurmat outside of their Jhatka-Bhang-Shiva-S anatan sand box. Perhaps Baba Nihal Singh Ji's Gurmat and principles are more in line with Baba Deep Singh Ji and Akal Phula Singh Ji of Tarna Dal, than Santa Singh and his gang of Hindu worshipping drug addicts. Anyways, what is next, connecting the Chand-Torrays to Japanese Samurais, as ms514 has interestingly pointed out. Also, when you are done laughing at Baba Nihal Singh Ji's comments, please go dig up your historical documentation linking these Astars to Shiv.

Bhai Amandeep Singh Jeeo, Can you please provide actual concrete proof (written, historic) than just pointing to a photo or two as proof regarding the origins of the "Chand." While some conclude that the cresent represents Shiva, others as this Hindu site (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/shiva) state that "Shiva's hair also supports a crescent moon, a symbol of the female reproductive cycle." So if we went by what they say, is it safe to conclude that Singhs go around wearing symbols of the female reproductive cycle? What about linking to the Islamic cresent, which the Hindus already claim that it is copied from them ? Below is a picture of Shiv supposebly mixing Bhang. The UK Nangs use this image to link themselves to Shiv also. Notice that he is also wearing a garment that looks very similar to a Kashera. I don't think we can go around concluding that Kasheras are originated from Shiva or from Hanuman as some other say. It is all speculation. Many years ago we asked Tarna Dal Jathedar Baba Nihal Singh Ji of Harian Belan about the Chand shape. He commented that the Chand shape is merely a simplification of the the Swords of Miri-Piri, with the two handles emerging from the bottom where the Torra is inserted into. He mentioned that the Singhs in the old days didn't have the capabilities to manufacture intricate shapes and designs, so the Chand and the two dangling handles repsented their simple Miri-Piri design. Knowing Baba Nihal Singh, I doubt if he would try to cover up the truth and just conjure up the above e xplanation. The explanation of the Farla is also too humourous. It is the first I have heard of it. Perhaps Budha Dal does use this explanation, but they also state that they are an offshoot of Hinduism so that does not surprise me. According to Mahan Kosh and many other writings, the Farla represents the Blue Khalsa Nishaan Sahib, and was worn by the Jathedars who would be leading the battlefield. Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha details the Farla's origins to the Blue Nishaan Sahib and not Shiv. In fact if we start using images images of Shiva and Hindu gods as historical references for Sikhism, then I guess everything is borrowed from Hinduism. Our long hair, top-knot joora, kara, kashera, Kirpan, etc. We no longer can be called a Niralla Panth could we, if we are merely mimicking Hinduism? Until real evidence can provided that the Singhs used the Chand as a representation of Shiv, Islam, or the female reproduction cycle, I don't think we should be making such bold statements. If we do then are not we implicating Singhs like Akali Phula Singh Ji to be worshippers of Hindu gods ? Again, please provide actual historic references.

Jasbir Singh "Rode" is NOT the Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. When Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji was appointed, Rode recognized Bhai Sahib as the legitimate Jathedar, without a question. Jasbir Singh is a man of questionable character. Many say he has embezzled millions in the name of Shaheed Baba Jarnail Singh Ji ( he is his nephew). His hugh palace-like Kotthee is proof of that. He ran away from his duties as Jathedar during "Operation Black Thunder", and basically never returned. Many blame him for allowing this assault. He now runs his own "Akali Dal" and can be seen in many media photo-ops, even attending conferences alongside Hanera Badal. I don't think the Panth has to worry about choosing between "Rode" and Singh Sahib Bhai Ranjit Singh.

smartsingh24 stated : Smart Singh Jeeo, please don't waste the Sangat's time with misinformation. The original letter containg the Gurmattas were approved by AKJ (BC), AKJ (Toronto), AKJ (UK), AKJ (India/Punjab), and AKJ (California) and it is still posted at : akj.org and Tapoban.org with an Admin note. You state that this is not from AKJ (USA). If not then why was this letter accepted by akj.org and Tapoban.org ? For claification, as far as the US Jatha goes, you might want to know that Akhand Kirtani Jatha was registered and est ablished in California first during the 1970's. Singhs associated with the Jatha came here way back in the 1960s. The original Singhs who represented the Jatha back then were almost entirely from California, and we have largest concentration of Jatha Singhs than any other state in the US. In fact we have the largest concentration of AmritDharee Singhs in the US also. The California Jatha Sangat is recognized by AKJ UK, BC, Toronto, and India, and we have worked with Akal Takhat Sahib at an official level with Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara during the Kala-Afghana phenomenom, and AKJ (USA) continues to work on Panthic projects with other Jathebadees such as the Khalsa Alliance and the Dam Dami Taksal. If there is any laxity in Rahit, with Guru Ji's Kirpa, it has to be corrected through Gurmat norms and standards. The California Sangat and USA Panel of AKJ stands firmly behind these Gurmattas so Panthic principles can be upheld. If you have any questions instead of posting misinformation on this board, why no contact them directly via the contact information list on the letter ? And, don't waste the Sangat's time with such frivolous posts. - Navjot Singh

Jujharoo, you seem offended at Singh47's comments about the origin of the Taksal, but this is not just his opinion but one that is widely held in Panthic circles. Just because Baba Jarnail Singh said something doesn't mean it is the ULTIMATE TRUTH and has been written in stone. Only Gurbani can be held up to that level. Every time there is a debate about some maryada, it is the same old argument: (1) DDT believes ________ (fill in the blank) (2) DDT was started by Guru Sahib himself. (3) Therefore _________ is the truth; end of the story. Even Baba Sundar Singh Ji or Baba Gurbachan Singh never made such statements when he was working on the Panthic Maryada with other Sikh Scholars in the 1920 and '30. If Jatha Bindran could have proven that only they are following the original Rahit "seena-baseena", I am sure the Panth would have accepted it. But this is far from the truth. There is no doubt, like other Chardi-Kala organizations, the current day Taksal too is attempting to follow the original Khalsa Rahit, but since there is no ONE document from Guru Sahib's time stating the exact original Rahit, there is no way to prove any one organization follows it exactly. If one studies the origins of the well known "Giani" semperdais, one can only conclude that there was no single Rahit or school of thought passed on from one teacher to a student. That is why there are virtually hundreds of centres in and around Punjab all claiming to part of the "Giani" semperdais yet they differ in many ways. Their Maryadas vary from Udasi and Nirmala influenced (Baba Bishan Singh /Prem Singh Muraleywale Dera headed by the infamous Bib i Jagir Kaur of Begowal) to Singh Sabha influenced (Jatha Bhindran Mehta, Jatha Bhindran Bhinder Kala of Baba Mohan Singh Ji). For example, Giani Sant Singh Ji, referred to as the 6th head of the Taksal, had Kavi Santokh Singh Nirmala (author of Guru Partap Suraj Granth aka Suraj Parkash) as a student, and furthermore his students included Megh Singh and Giani Gian Singh (author of Panth Parkash). Kavi Santokh Singh and Giani Gian Singh's views on RaagMala are are well known and in contrast to those of the present day Taksal, yet they are shown intrinsicly connected to the same Giani school. Rather than merely relying on schools of thought or teaching, our reasoning should be based on logic using Gurbani and Gurmat. A great example of this is Giani Pinderpal Singh Ji, undoubtedly one of our greatest and youngest Kathakars. His Katha is never based on hearsay, he always back ups his points using Gurbani and historical references. At the same time with an open mind all these institutions of learning that have tried to preserve Gurmat and the Rahit Maryada should be respected.

>>>> taksal beleives (and so do I) that it is utar su kheh According to the following Panthic references it is : Version 1: Pani Dhotai Utras Kheh pwxI DoqY auqrsu Kyh ] NITNAME SARL SATEEK : Bhai Joginder Singh Ji (Talwara) GURU GRANTH SAHIB DARPAN : Prof. Sahib Singh Ji FAREEDKOATEE TEEKA (Used by many Samperdais as a reference steek)

>>>i'm just a member, but i think the goal was to do something for public (seva), so we >>>saw this as an opportunity to do that...afterall, aren't sikhs supposed to do goodwill? I think the SSA needs to understand that GidderGill is misusing them for PR purposes. The Sac State SSA is routinely featured in his Sikh Bulletin rag. SSA sewadaars should know better than to align themselves with enemies of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. If SSA really wants to do public seva, then go to the REAL GURDWARA SAHIB run by REAL SIKHS in Roseville. In fact 90% of the Sangat attends that one instead of GidderGill's Dera. Hopefully the SSA will learn from this incident and in the future not align themselves with enemies of the Panth.

Sending ashes into flowing water is preferred in Sikhi rather than depositing or burying them in the ground. Why ? Since SAMADHS/MARREES and TOMBS are forbidden in Sikhism. Placing ashes in flowing water is a practical way of disposing them and reduces the chances of someone erecting a memorial. This way no traces are left of the ashes since the water dilutes all the ashes while flowing down river or into the sea and hence - back into nature. The only exception to this is for SHAHEEDS. The Panth has allowed memorials to be erected where GURSIKHS became SHAHEED or where they were CREMATED in masse. I beleive this is allowed so the coming generations can remember the SACRIFICES made by those YODHAYS.

WARNING ! Kirpal Nijjhar is an ACTIVE Kala-Afghani, he spews the same poison as Kala. His message is simple : Amrit is not important, Rahit & Naam Simran are rituals. So Gurmukho, ignore these idiots. Obviously these Nastiks are not convinced by what our Guru says : iek dU jIBO lK hoih lK hovih lK vIs ] lKu lKu gyVw AwKIAih eyku nwmu jgdIs ] If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue, I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe. (SGGS Ang: 7) rsnw aucrMiq nwmM sRvxM sunµiq sbd AMimRqh ] With my tongue, I chant the Lord's Name; with my ears, I listen to the Ambrosial Word of His Shabad. (SGGS Ang: 709) bwrM bwr bwr pRBu jpIAY ] Repeatedly, again and again, recite the Name of God. (SGGS Ang: 286) ismir ismir nwmu bwrM bwr ] Recite, Recite in remembrance on the Naam, again and again. (SGGS Ang: 295) vwihgurU swlwhxw gur Sbd Alwey ]ñó] Vaheguru, God, is eulogised through recitation of the Word (VaheGuru). siqgur purK dieAwl hoie vwihgurU scu mMqR suxwXw] Becoming kind, the Guru recites the true mantar Vaheguru for him. vwihgurU gurU mMqR hY jp haumYN KoeI] His Guru-mantar is Vaheguru, who se recitation erases egotism. (Varaa'n Bhai Gurdas Jee)

That is actually the problem with people like you N30. You seem show so much respect for certain individuals only (your 'Mahapurash'), but then you insult other GurSikhs by calling them "Saap." If you saw the same "Jot" in both Baba Nand Singh & Vir Singh, you wouldn't say such things. The same "Jot" exists in all Sikhs, your Babas or Mahapurashs didn't have any other special "Jot" inside them. They were and are NOTHING without our Guru Dhan Dhan SatGuru Granth Sahib Jee : THE BRAHMGYANEE AND NIRANKAR ROOP HIMSELF. Actually N30, this is SikhSangat.com not SikhAwareness.com, I'll stay where I am. The last time I checked, the Admins of this site were worshippers of AKAL PURAKH SAHIB, and not humans.

All I can say is that N30 and others are acting a bit paranoid. Vir Singh is merely posting an extract of a book officially recognized by Nanaksar. N3O: Who is stirring hate here Vir Singh or you ? What kind of Sikh calls another Sikh a "Saap" ? I thought God is present everywhere, isn't He present in Vir Singh also ? Or is God only present in those whom YOU label Mahapurashs or Brahmgianis ? If there is one thing we can learn from the book extract it is that Chardi-Kala Gurmukhs CAN have differing views on Gurmat and GurMaryada. History is witness to this fact, and history does NOT lie. The fact is that Great Gurmukhs such as Baba Attar Singh Mastuana, Baba Nand Singh Ji, Baba Mit Singh Ji, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji, Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Akali Kaur Singh Ji, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Baba Harnam Singh Ji of Rampur Kehrra HAD DIFFERING OPINIONS on various subject matters. Aren’t we being a bit naïve if we state that they all agreed on everything ? Or do we live in some kind of UTOPIA? These are exactly the types of fragilities naastik Kala-Afghana has capitalized on in his books. First we openly state Singh A was a Brahmgyani and Singh B was a Brahmgyani, and then we get all wired up when we find out that Singh A & Singh B had differing opinions on a particular subject. Why can’t they ? They can differing view points, for heavens sake; they were different individuals with different levels of avastha and have had different types of Sangat and grew up in different environments. They were NOT clones of each other, nor do they magically start thinking alike. Don’t forget, they were human beings and the extent of their kn owledge HAD limits. Yes, they were SIKHS and NOT our GURUS. Only GURU Ji' is limitless in knowledge, and what his Sikhs know and experience is only what He wills. They might be the metaphoric glass of water from the Ocean but they were not the Ocean itself. For those who want to reply back with “SO YOU ARE DOUBTING” Baba A Singh ? Or “ARE YOU CALLING Baba B Singh a LIAR ?” Save your key strokes... Gurbanee Says : ONLY THE TRUE SATGURU IS PREFECT ALL ELSE ARE IMPERFECT

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N30 said : N30, do you mean "excommunicate" ? For your information, Akaal Takht Sahib doesn't excommunicate the sons and daughters of the Panth just because some kangaroo court "convicts" them. I am sure you also have full faith in the Hindoostani courts & their Hindoo masters who have played the leading role this case. BTW, have you sent Akal Takht Sahib requests to excommunicate all those Jajharroo Singhs who were convicted in Indian courts also ? Why don't you start with Jathedaar Bhai Ranjit Singh Ji ?

TSingh Stated : TSingh Ji, please provide PROOF for your above statements. Akal Takht Sahib does NOT recognize individual Maryadas such as DDT's or the Sant-Smaaj.

Khalistani Ji stated : >>na, i wanst there, but its very famous account, all taksal singhs know it Singh Ji, can you please forward the names & contact informaton for the Singhs who "know" this happened. I would like to interview them and possibly video tape their statements. This way they can be on record for stating that Sukhdev Singh B@bb@r tried to assasinate Baba Jarnail Singh. If any of them are willing to do that please let me know. I am eager to find out who these people are. - Navjot Singh Khalsa

His name is Bhai Gurpreet Singh (aka "Thunder Singh")

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! This might be off topic but Khalistani Ji, why are you modifying Panthic Jaikaraas into groupist slogans ? You state : "AKAL! AKAL! DAMDAMI TAKSAL! GURBAR AKAL! BOLE SONEHAL SAT SR AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL!" The words "DamDami Taksal" are NOT part of any of our Jaikaras, never have and never will be. Inserting them in the middle of the Panthic Jaikaras is silly. With all due respect Khalistani Ji, we are worshippers of the Almighty AKAL and not of the TAKSAL !