Where were Nihungs in 1984?

[GurooDaChela]

1- Mehtab Singh Jee, no offense but you are pretty lost if that is your standing point. (go through my previous posts...especially the ones on meat.)

#2- Jagroop Singh Jee- Every that you quote from bhagat kabir's bani is good and I agree with what he said. But you have to understand that even in puratan janam sakhi's Akali Nihang Guroo Gobind Singh Jee strictly prohibited the consumption of meat if you are following the path of peace and non-martial traditions such as the Udhasi and Nirmala Panths. The Akali's on the other were have to eat meat. Guroo sahib didnt want to have a weak frightened and scared army that doesnt eat meat. YOUR FIGHTING WAR FOR GODSAKE! If you cant -- an animal to eat or eat flesh and blood of an animal how are you going to -- other humans. Common sense.

[Guest mehtab]

1- Mehtab Singh Jee, no offense but you are pretty lost if that is your standing point. (go through my previous posts...especially the ones on meat.)

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I had already mentioned that I don't know about the Nihangs and the maryada they follow, so I guess I'll shut up, as I haven't bothered with this thread for an year since it started. And if not wanting to -- God's creatures (whether jhatka or halal) is being lost, well then, I am happy to be lost :wub: . I'll let Gurujee guide me :D .

stay in chardi kala :wub:

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupti]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I don't know much about Nihangs. But here is the little bit I have to say about meat eating.

Say there are 2 chardi kala GurSikhs. One eats meat and the other doesn't. They both are at a great spiritual avastha. Now what could happen after they die?

Case 1 : Dharamraaj is cool with meat eating (Halal or chatka or whatever)

Result : Both go to sachkhand

Case 2 : Dharamraaj is strictly against meat eating period!

Result : The vegetarian Sikh makes it to Sachkhand while the other has to pay for his deeds.

Conclusion : The veggie Sikh goes to Sachkhand in goth cases. The non-veggie has a 50% chance, and so he is the one taking the risk of coming back.

my half cent

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

What if the warrior went to hell for being a vegetarian?

How do we know the 'dietary criterion' for reaching Sachkand?

A Sakhi I heard: When Banda Bahadur and his army were surrounded before his capture, and all supply routes to his army were cut off, did his army not resort to eating their horses? Has anybody else heard this story as well? (I find it slighty hard to believe, not because of the meat issues but because a horse is a Nihangs "Jaan

Bhai" ie Best Friend/Brother for life)

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!!!

Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

[Guest mehtab]

What if the warrior went to hell for being a vegetarian? 

How do we know the 'dietary criterion' for reaching Sachkand?

Exactly, which is why this was used as an example to make it clear that a veggie doesn't lose anything (according to the example atleast). But then again, I never had access to any menu from Sachkhand so I can't be sure. In the light of Gurbani however, it seems clear that meat (as most GurSikhs believe) is not allowed. And I doubt if one is sent to hell just coz he/she is a vegetarian.

How dare you hurt plants

bhul chuk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

3;

[Gupti]

And I doubt if one is sent to hell just coz he/she is a vegetarian.

And by that very same concept I doubt if one is sent to hell because he/she is a meat eater.

[anon]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

And by that very same concept I doubt if one is sent to hell because he/she is a meat eater.

you never know....and i know i wouldnt wanna be the one to find out....its best to eat little and eat simple....thats what the great mahapurkh do. for example sant baba takhur singh jee would probably a couple prashaday a day if not only one. you dont need meat to live and unless you do need meat to survive why not stay away from it. its to controversial to just be playin around...if you get what im tryin to say.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Guest mehtab]

And I doubt if one is sent to hell just coz he/she is a vegetarian.

And by that very same concept I doubt if one is sent to hell because he/she is a meat eater.

If taking the life of God's creature does not bring punishment, then I guess one is free to -- whoever one wants to, right? Bhai Randhir Singh refused to get close to Akali Kaur Singh because he ate meat, which I guess he gave up later on. No GurSikh I read/heard of ever ate meat, but then again, either you don't recognize them as GurSikhs or maybe I don't know something about them. So please name a few known GurSikhs who ate meat.

[Gupti]

Akali Kaur Singh himself!

[Guest mehtab]

Akali Kaur Singh himself!

And he had quit meat, right?

http://www.tapoban.org/akalikaur.htm

A Discussion About Meat With Akali Koar Singh

by Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee

(Which took place in Sri Nagar in September, 1944).

Akali ji arrived to meet me at the house of Sir Diaal Singh, where a few other Sikh friends were also gathered. He reached out with his arms, to give a welcoming hug, as he approached me. At which point I boldly stated –

Daas– I will never hug you; a greeting from afar is fine.

Akali Koar Singh – (with a cunning smile) Why, what have I done?

Daas– You have committed two murders. I don’t hug murderers.

Akali Koar Singh – (a little angered) Which murders have I committed? Please enlighten me and tell me to what you are referring?

Daas– Here is a letter from Narinder Singh, from Mahindipur, the one who you served the chicken to having killed it with your own hands. He has passed away. For eight or nine years he was ill from tuberculosis, but he was such a believer in his faith that he refused to eat meat and eggs, t

hough many doctors had advised it strongly. Even many of his close friends attempted to convince him, but he remained true to his faith. Due to his faith, his condition began to get better and better, he even put on eighteen pounds in weight. All the doctors were amazed. Everyone admitted that it was his faith which brought on this improvement.

From the day that you fed him that chicken, his health has deteriorated. After a few days, the eating of the meat had taken his life. Firstly you are responsible for ‘murdering’ his faith, secondly you murdered him and thirdly you murdered the chicken. All this rests upon your head. I don’t know how many other sins you have committed, in addition to these three, and to hug you would be like ‘murdering’ the true spirit of act act of hugging someone. Poor soul. Dear Narinder Singh became a victim of your crooked thinking.

Akali Koar Singh – I never killed a chicken, never fed it to him and never even said a

word which convinced him to eat meat.

Daas– The only thing that proves is that you do not have ethics enough to confess to what you have done. Present today are some people from Mahindipur who have heard exactly the same thing, as I have stated.

All the people who were gathered there supported what I had stated and said to Akali Koar Singh, you say that you did not advise him at all. But, I know for a fact that that you scolded many Sikhs during heated discussions in Bijey Nagar, and stated that a any Sikh who does not eat meat, has fallen from the ideals of Sikhism.

Upon hearing this the Akali hung his head and in a low, weak voice denied ever saying such things. Perhaps to liven up the discussion, I may have said one or two things.

Daas– To completely insult the whole of wondrous teaching of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not an act to liven up the discussion. What was the point of bringing up the topic of meat? If one act of a person is worthless, does that mean every other act is worthless too? Is there no good at all

33; The way that I answer meat-eaters who want to discuss the matter is by referring to the truths which are found in the Guru Granth Sahib. For you to state that if a person does not eat meat then he is not a Sikh, is biased and bigoted. In making such a declaration, you have made every none meat-eating Sikh, out to be unworthy of Sikhism, and have caused pain to the hearts of those proud Sikhs who followed the true path of religion. The very text (Guru Granth Sahib) that you criticism so strongly, does not even contain a trace of support for eating meat. You said what you did in order to cause pain to those Sikhs who do not eat meat.

Those people who were listening to what you said were like saints. I have heard they did not display their disgust, and kept it raging inside them. The stage director tried on many occasions to prevent you from going too far, but you did not stop. Truthfully, if I had been there I would never have let you speak and would have argued against you and the lies you were telling. What right did you have to say anything at all. By not admitting to your saying such things, you show that you do not even have a grain of morality in you. Please tell me now, using which verse from the Gurbani did you -- that chicken? When it is clear in the Guru Granth Sahib that Gurbani page 225 end of first para.

How would you commentate on such a verse? How can you -- and eat a chicken, when it is clearly forbidden in this verse?

Akali Koar Singh – Sire, this verse has been written for customs of Muslims, not of Sikhs.

Daas –

prQwie swKI mhw purK boldy swJI sgl jhwnY ]

Great men speak the teachings by relating them to individual situations, but the whole world shares in them.

states that God can comment on every custom, and this comment applies to all. The sacred ‘Bani has not only been written for Sikhs.

Akali Koar Singh – (becoming a little worried) This verse is solely for Muslims.

jau sB mih eyku Kudwie khq hau qau ika

u murgI mwrY ]1]

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you -- chickens? ||1||

This proves what I say.

Daas – How! Are us Sikhs not believers of the ‘sB mih eyku Kudwie khq ha’ verse? Even Hindus believe it, as do the Christians. It is a principle of religion that we all belong to one God. Do you disagree with this?

Akali Koar Singh – I cannot disagree with it, but this verse has been specifically addressed to Muslims.

Daas – This is your lack of faith and is also your stubbornness. What you want to establish is that it is forbidden for Muslims to -- chickens, but not for Sikhs.

Akali Koar Singh – You can understand it which ever way you like but, this verse is addressed solely to Muslims.

Daas – First of all then, I will dispel this myth of yours and then I will show you that this verse is not dedicated solely to Muslims. Read the first extract –

byd kqyb khhu mq JUTy JUTw jo n ibcwrY ]

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

jau sB mih eyku Kudwie khq hau qau ikau murgI mwrY ]1]

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you -- chickens? ||1||

The first part of this two-line extract clearly states that is is addressed to Hindus and Muslims, and not only Muslims. ‘You say that the One Lord is in all’. Those who believe this will feel the impact of the verse. Those people who have been addressed in this verse, are bound by the same rules towards killing poultry. Hindus do not feel the impact any lesser than Sikhs, and Muslims do not feel the impact any more. In the same way, you cannot escape from the impact of this verse.

Akali Koar Singh – That means no one can escape from the verse’s impact.

Daas – At least you admit that the killing of poultry is wrong in principle. You should know that no one can get away with committing a crime. If there are others commi

tting a crime, does that make your committing the crime, a lesser criminal act? First you would claim that Muslims were the criminal and, because you were a Sikh, you were not guilty of the same crime. But know that it has become apparent that everyone is effected by the impact of the verse, you have changed your stance, and now believe that no one can live a crime-free life.

The crime that is done by all, is that crime acceptable? But how can you state that everyone commits crimes? The crime that are mentioned here, only relate to those who --poultry.

Everyone who kills poultry is a criminal, whether it be a Hindu, Muslim or Sikh.

Akali Koar Singh – What I mean to say is, in breathing, drinking and walking on the earth we -- animals. Can you say that this is not the killing of animals?

Daas – Is it true we do that? Do we -- animals for food and do we forcefully slaughter them? The killing of animals for our own taste is a crime, though if a act does not take us away from our natural diet, then we cannot be guilty of any crime. Breathing is merely an act of survival, not an act of consuming little animals. In the same way, our walking on the earth is not a deliberate act to -- small insects. By walking around, breathing, eating and drink, if we consume minute creatures, we will not be found guilty of a crime.

Akali Koar Singh – All of us cannot escape the evil from slaughtering animals if in everyday life we continue to -- them. So, by killing a chicken, it isn’t if I gained a great deal more guilt. In breathing we cannot escape killing animals.

Daas – (biting the inside of his cheek) Amazing! What a great point of view you have taken!

Using paan and tobacco, smoking the pipe and smoking cigarettes are all forbidden to Sikhs. But you tell me, having travelled throughout India, you must have boarded many trains and buses on your travels. If you board a train which is full of smokers who are filling the air with cigarette smok

e. Should you, during your time on that train, inhale some of that smoke during the natural act of breathing, would that make you a sinner? The fact is that you cannot avoid inhaling the smoke of the cigarettes. If the smoke is wafting into your face, clothes and hair, it means that you cannot avoid being effected by it. What a weak argument you put forward.

At this point the Akali became very agitated, and was incapable of an answer. He hung his head and a silence followed. Then a short while later, the Akali responded:

Akali Koar Singh – Brother, I came here to ask you if you would come and meet with the rest of my group who will become baptised Sikhs (amrit shakna) , but you set the conversation in a completely different direction. I will ask you to accompany me. I came to ask you this in Narangwal also.

Daas – You can keep you invitation to yourself. It is possible to see Sikhs being baptised on many other occasions, and as I said to you in Narangwal, the state of being a baptised Sikh forbids one to eat meat. Those people who do not eat meat should be the ones who present themselves for baptism.

Akali Koar Singh – At least come along. Ask them to refrain from eating meat, and they will.

Daas – Akali ji, please talk sense; do not stray. You have vast experience in religious circles but you still hold the view that it is a Sikh’s religious right to consume meat. It is a shame that you haven’t been able to positively influence your followers in any way. If you did not lecture on eating meat, they would eat meat by following your actions. Actions speak louder than words.

Three hours of debate followed, during which the Akali was put-down from every angle. Even with these put-downs, he would not give up his stubbornness. He didn’t leave his stubbornness, but he did leave us.

All the objectives of this discussion have been met. Therefore, there is no need for extra narrative or dialogue. I will leave

you with one final outcome.

Having heard first-hand that Akali Koar Singh had taken the first steps to changing his thinking about meat, made me happy. He began to lecture on the true religious stance concerning meat and didn’t touch it again from that day on.

I had hoped that this manuscript would be completed while Akali Koar Singh was still alive, but that wasn’t to be the case.

[Guest mehtab]

http://www.tapoban.org/meat.htm

Arguments Against Meat

In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.

Bhai Gurdas jee, whose banee was called the key to SGGS by Satguru Arjun dev jee says:

Sheeh pajooti Bakkari, maradi hoie harh harh hassi, Ak Dhatura khadian kuh kuh khal ukhal vinassi, Maas Khan gal wad ke, haal tinada kaun hovassi. (Vaar 25-7)

Means the goat says, "I was eating Ak and Dhatura plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?

At some other place, Bhai Sahib talks about goat being cut by butcher to be eaten :

"kuhe Kassai Bakkari, lai loon seekh mass proyia" Hass hass bole kuhidi, khade ak haal eh hoyia, Maas khan gal churi de, haal tinada kaun aloyia" (Vaar 37-21)

Means: Goat is being killed, cut into pieces and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating Ak plant (weed found in India's desert fields). In last line goat puts a

question, what will be the fate of those in the court of god who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?

Bhai Gurdas Ji in Vaar 31 gives strong warning against eating meat. He said, due to some good doings in previous births, Pootna (a witch who tried to poison Krishna Ji) was forgiven. But don't take it as that act of poisoning others is acceptable. And due to some pious acts in previous births and grace of Lord, Sadhana the butcher was forgiven (there is mention about him in Gurubani too, later on he became bhagat). But it should not be interpreted as, that killing animals and eating their meat (word "Bhanga" here) is acceptable. Please read the following lines of Bhai Sahib Ji:

"Jekar udhari pootna, Wihu pialan kam na changa, Je Kassai udharia, jeean ghai na khaiye Bhanga" (Vaar 31-5)

(Thanks to www.panthkhalsa.org for these quotes).

In SGGS banee which none of us can deny, there are also lots of tuks that say it is important not to eat meat. "Kabeer, jee jo maraahi jor kar, kahitay hai jo halal. Daftar daee jab kaid hai, hoigaa koun havaal" Meaning, those that used force and -- and call it halal, after going to the court of god, what will be their state? Here it may be argued that this tuk relates to halal, but think about it. Isn't force used in killing any animal for meat? Banee says "Parthai saakhee mahaa purakh bolday, saanjhee sagal jhaanai" meaning, what mahaapurakhs say applies to all, not just who they are specifically talking too. Here this line is addressed to Muslims, but it also applies too all who eat meat. . "Kabeer joree keeay julm hai, khaitaa naao halaal. Daftar laykhaa mangeeay tab hoigo koun havaal". Also, "Kabeer, jor keeaa so jolm hai, lay jabaab khudai. Daftar lykhaa neeksai mar muhai mohai khaii” meaning it is evil to use force and --, god will certainly take you to task for it. When you must present your deeds in the court of god, you will face blows to the face. And "kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai

sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these. "Bayd katayb kaho mat jhootay, jhoota jo na bichaarai. jo sabh mai eayk khudai kahit ho, to kio murgee maarai." meaning, the Semitic and Hindu scriptures aren't false, false is he who does not reflect on them. If they say that there is god in all, then why do you -- a chicken? Finally, Bhagat Kabeer jee says "Kabeer, khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa maih amrit loan. Hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kutaavai koun” meaning it is good to eat kicharee (mixture of rice and pulses), that has been tastefully prepared with salt. Who should risk having their throat cut (in the after life) just for a meal of meat and bread?

Mercy is of utmost importance in gurmat "daya jaanai jee kee kich pun daan karai" from aasaa dee vaar tells us to have mercy on all living things. Guru jee also tells us "dookh naa dayee kisai jee, pat sio ghar jaavo" give pain to no living thing. go home with honour. Athsath teerath sagal punn jeey dayaa parwaan: Going to the 78 places of pilgrimage, of greater merit and acceptance is having mercy upon living things.

I could give hundreds of tuks on the importance of mercy in gurmat. There is no mercy in killing an animal if there are hundreds of other things we can eat. Plants feel no pain, they don't move or squirm when we harvest them. I know a screaming goat can feel the pain when I -- it. Plants have no nervous system. Plants are a life form that can't feel pain. Animals are not as such. Many brothers/sisters may say that Maas Maas kar moorakh jhagray shabad makes meat ok. No. This shabad tells the sanyaasees that vegetarianism is not a religion. It will not bring muktee. It criticises those who wish to call vegetarianism the greatest religion. I could translate this shabad and show this, but I'll leave it for now. If someone wants though, I would be happy to translate all shabads that meat eaters want to use for support and show that they d

on't even begin to support meat. I hope I haven’t hurt anyone's feelings and just wish everyone would be brave to find the truth and then accept it.