Kes Keski

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Vaahiguroo JEe Kaa Khalsaa Vaahiguroo Jee Kee Fathe!!

Author: Kulbir Singh

Date:  10-24-05 17:52

Sometime ago, we had an opportunity to visit an inter-religion meeting organized by a local education board. We were asked to verify information on Sikh faith that the board had collected. There was one more Sikh organization representing Sikhs there. Both Sikh organizations (us and the other one) sat on one table.

We wanted Keski to be one of the 5 kakaars but the other organization was insistent on Kes. We kept doing vichaar and soon enough they did not have any answer to the valid and logical questions raised by us but they vichaar continued without any solution in sight.

Then a compromise was suggested. It was suggested that the fifth kakaar would be called not kes and not keski but "Kes with Keski". The other organization readily accepted this and so did we.

Can this be the possible solution to this issue. Let there be one less divisional issue in Panth.

Kulbir Singh

Vaahiguroo JEe Kaa Khalsaa Vaahiguroo Jee Kee Fathe!!

[Akaali]

Agreed!

[H4RPAL]

This would only be acceptable if there was unanimous agreement that keski was essential, but this is not the case in reality.

This approach would be fine for the proponents of keski, as no keski proponent suggests kesh is not neccessary, but on the other side, there are those that state kesh is a kakkar who think that as a result keski is not neccessary.

In this manner, it would in essence be no different to suggesting full on that keski and not kesh is kakkar.

[All-Info]

This would only be acceptable if there was unanimous agreement that keski was essential, but this is not the case in reality.

This approach would be fine for the proponents of keski, as no keski proponent suggests kesh is not neccessary, but on the other side, there are those that state kesh is a kakkar who think that as a result keski is not neccessary.

In this manner, it would in essence be no different to suggesting full on that keski and not kesh is kakkar.

128540[/snapback]

Bro it says keep a keski aswel!!!! no need for the complicated stuf man! u even confused me!!!!!

its sayin wear a keski - which for some would be there their dastar!! lol

[Akaali]

Yea I'm confused as well.

The notion of this post is to compromise, not to distinguish between whether kes should be a kakaar or keski a kakaar. Ofcourse admin is gonna close this topic if it turns into another debate between kes and keski

If Guru Nanak gave men and women equal status in Sikhi, then why do only men wear a dastaar?

Sikhi, Turban and Woman

Once, I met a Western lady in Sydney and she asked me about my religion prompted by my Turban. I tried to explain to her as much as possible. I share a comment she made to me.

“So Muslims cover their women with Burka and Sikhs cover their men by a Turban”

This really made me think. I had thought all these years that we are treated equally in Sikh religion but what is this. I started thinking. The following points came to my mind -

a) In Sikh Religion all rules are common between man and woman. Women enjoy as much as spiritual bliss as would a man. Then why should a man wear a turban and woman need not? Is it something to do with spirituality, custom, circumstances, social behaviour?

b) A man passes through challenging times because of his turban. Over a period of time, a man becomes strong defending his turban and his style of dressing up. He also becomes proud as he has to defend himself all the time and conduct with some self-esteem – just to justify why he is turbaned.

c) How can a woman who has always lived like any other female in the society with freedom to do whatever with her hair (pony tail, jhurra, colouring, trimming, waxing, etc) ever understand the psychology of a Sikh turbaned man and what he passes through in daily life? How can she ever be his partner or companion, when she has herself not been strengthened over the years? So, I am not surprised when Sikh girls choose non-Sikhs boys in marriage.

d) Many Sikh Girls marry muslim boys and live the rest of their lives wearing burkas. Muslims are the fastest growing religion of the world and I have seen Muslim women fiercely defend wearing of the Burka. So, if we are logically consistent and transparent about the universal applicability of our Turbans, why our Sikh women will not wear a turban with pride. Afterall, American sikh women conduct themselves with such dignity and feminine grace, though wearing a Turban.

e) Can a Female who enjoys all the freedom like any other neighboring woman of non-Sikh religion impart Sikh values to her child. Let me clarify, can a woman who shaves her legs, waxes her face and trims her eye-brows tell her son not to trim his beard. Can such a woman tell her husband not to wear a Topi or a baseball cap?

f) Since the times of Guru Nanak, woman were accorded equality in spirituality. Is Turban something to do with our concept of spirituality. I am not sure, but from history I understand that during the bad times for the Sikhs, the head of the woman was also priced as the head of a young sikh teenager, as both used to be turbaned. Is this True? Also, some one mentioned that before 1921 all amritdhari women were also advised to wear a turban. Is this true?

g) American sikh women wear a turban and are so steadfast in their faith. Why did Yogiji insist that Sikh women wear a Turban? Even in India, many Groups ask their women to wear a Turban?

[All-Info]

To avoid conflict PLEASE dnt know one take offence!! its just a general question!!

though i seen loads of bibis wearing dastar and is looks wicked!!

Yea I'm confused as well.

The notion of this post is to compromise, not to distinguish between whether kes should be a kakaar or keski a kakaar. Ofcourse admin is gonna close this topic if it turns into another debate between kes and keski

If Guru Nanak gave men and women equal status in Sikhi, then why do only men wear a dastaar?

Sikhi, Turban and Woman

Once, I met a Western lady in Sydney and she asked me about my religion prompted by my Turban. I tried to explain to her as much as possible. I share a comment she made to me.

“So Muslims cover their women with Burka and Sikhs cover their men by a Turban”

This really made me think. I had thought all these years that we are treated equally in Sikh religion but what is this. I started thinking. The following points came to my mind -

a) In Sikh Religion all rules are common between man and woman. Women enjoy as much as spiritual bliss as would a man. Then why should a man wear a turban and woman need not? Is it something to do with spirituality, custom, circumstances, social behaviour?

b) A man passes through challenging times because of his turban. Over a period of time, a man becomes strong defending his turban and his style of dressing up. He also becomes proud as he has to defend himself all the time and conduct with some self-esteem – just to justify why he is turbaned.

c) How can a woman who has always lived like any other female in the society with freedom to do whatever with her hair (pony tail, jhurra, colouring, trimming, waxing, etc) ever understand the psychology of a Sikh turbaned man and what he passes through in daily life? How can she ever be his partner or companion, when she has herself not been strengthened over the years? So, I am not surprised when Sikh girls choose non-Sikhs boys in marriage.

d) Many Sikh Girls marry muslim boys and live the rest of their lives wearing burkas. Muslims are the fastest growing religion of the world and I have seen Muslim women fiercely defend wearing of the Burka. So, if we are logically consistent and transparent about the universal applicability of our Turbans, why our Sikh women will not wear a turban with pride. Afterall, American sikh women conduct themselves with such dignity and feminine grace, though wearing a Turban.

e) Can a Female who enjoys all the freedom like any other neighboring woman of non-Sikh religion impart Sikh values to her child. Let me clarify, can a woman who shaves her legs, waxes her face and trims her eye-brows tell her son not to trim his beard. Can such a woman tell her husband not to wear a Topi or a baseball cap?

f) Since the times of Guru Nanak, woman were accorded equality in spirituality. Is Turban something to do with our concept of spirituality. I am not sure, but from history I understand that during the bad times for the Sikhs, the head of the woman was also priced as the head of a young sikh teenager, as both used to be turbaned. Is this True? Also, some one mentioned that before 1921 all amritdhari women were also advised to wear a turban. Is this true?

g) American sikh women wear a turban and are so steadfast in their faith. Why did Yogiji insist that Sikh women wear a Turban? Even in India, many Groups ask their women to wear a Turban?

128550[/snapback]

[H4RPAL]

Yea I'm confused as well.

The notion of this post is to compromise, not to distinguish between whether kes should be a kakaar or keski a kakaar. Ofcourse admin is gonna close this topic if it turns into another debate between kes and keski

If Guru Nanak gave men and women equal status in Sikhi, then why do only men wear a dastaar?

Sikhi, Turban and Woman

Once, I met a Western lady in Sydney and she asked me about my religion prompted by my Turban. I tried to explain to her as much as possible. I share a comment she made to me.

“So Muslims cover their women with Burka and Sikhs cover their men by a Turban”

This really made me think. I had thought all these years that we are treated equally in Sikh religion but what is this. I started thinking. The following points came to my mind -

a) In Sikh Religion all rules are common between man and woman. Women enjoy as much as spiritual bliss as would a man. Then why should a man wear a turban and woman need not? Is it something to do with spirituality, custom, circumstances, social behaviour?

b) A man passes through challenging times because of his turban. Over a period of time, a man becomes strong defending his turban and his style of dressing up. He also becomes proud as he has to defend himself all the time and conduct with some self-esteem – just to justify why he is turbaned.

c) How can a woman who has always lived like any other female in the society with freedom to do whatever with her hair (pony tail, jhurra, colouring, trimming, waxing, etc) ever understand the psychology of a Sikh turbaned man and what he passes through in daily life? How can she ever be his partner or companion, when she has herself not been strengthened over the years? So, I am not surprised when Sikh girls choose non-Sikhs boys in marriage.

d) Many Sikh Girls marry muslim boys and live the rest of their lives wearing burkas. Muslims are the fastest growing religion of the world and I have seen Muslim women fiercely defend wearing of the Burka. So, if we are logically consistent and transparent about the universal applicability of our Turbans, why our Sikh women will not wear a turban with pride. Afterall, American sikh women conduct themselves with such dignity and feminine grace, though wearing a Turban.

e) Can a Female who enjoys all the freedom like any other neighboring woman of non-Sikh religion impart Sikh values to her child. Let me clarify, can a woman who shaves her legs, waxes her face and trims her eye-brows tell her son not to trim his beard. Can such a woman tell her husband not to wear a Topi or a baseball cap?

f) Since the times of Guru Nanak, woman were accorded equality in spirituality. Is Turban something to do with our concept of spirituality. I am not sure, but from history I understand that during the bad times for the Sikhs, the head of the woman was also priced as the head of a young sikh teenager, as both used to be turbaned. Is this True? Also, some one mentioned that before 1921 all amritdhari women were also advised to wear a turban. Is this true?

g) American sikh women wear a turban and are so steadfast in their faith. Why did Yogiji insist that Sikh women wear a Turban? Even in India, many Groups ask their women to wear a Turban?

128550[/snapback]

LOL people!! Think for a second about your compromise here, it isn't one!!

People who support keski as kakkar say they also need unshorn kesh rite???? Nobody says keski is kakkar so you can cut your kesh, hence the term "Kes with Keski" would be fine for proponents of keski as kakkar.

However, there is another school of belief that does not see keski as essential, and hence, they should not ( if they think about it) be comfortable with the term "Kes with Keski" as this suggests keski is mandatory alongside kesh, something they appear not to believe in.

[H4RPAL]

Yea I'm confused as well.

The notion of this post is to compromise, not to distinguish between whether kes should be a kakaar or keski a kakaar. Ofcourse admin is gonna close this topic if it turns into another debate between kes and keski

If Guru Nanak gave men and women equal status in Sikhi, then why do only men wear a dastaar?

Sikhi, Turban and Woman

Once, I met a Western lady in Sydney and she asked me about my religion prompted by my Turban. I tried to explain to her as much as possible. I share a comment she made to me.

“So Muslims cover their women with Burka and Sikhs cover their men by a Turban”

This really made me think. I had thought all these years that we are treated equally in Sikh religion but what is this. I started thinking. The following points came to my mind -

a) In Sikh Religion all rules are common between man and woman. Women enjoy as much as spiritual bliss as would a man. Then why should a man wear a turban and woman need not? Is it something to do with spirituality, custom, circumstances, social behaviour?

b) A man passes through challenging times because of his turban. Over a period of time, a man becomes strong defending his turban and his style of dressing up. He also becomes proud as he has to defend himself all the time and conduct with some self-esteem – just to justify why he is turbaned.

c) How can a woman who has always lived like any other female in the society with freedom to do whatever with her hair (pony tail, jhurra, colouring, trimming, waxing, etc) ever understand the psychology of a Sikh turbaned man and what he passes through in daily life? How can she ever be his partner or companion, when she has herself not been strengthened over the years? So, I am not surprised when Sikh girls choose non-Sikhs boys in marriage.

d) Many Sikh Girls marry muslim boys and live the rest of their lives wearing burkas. Muslims are the fastest growing religion of the world and I have seen Muslim women fiercely defend wearing of the Burka. So, if we are logically consistent and transparent about the universal applicability of our Turbans, why our Sikh women will not wear a turban with pride. Afterall, American sikh women conduct themselves with such dignity and feminine grace, though wearing a Turban.

e) Can a Female who enjoys all the freedom like any other neighboring woman of non-Sikh religion impart Sikh values to her child. Let me clarify, can a woman who shaves her legs, waxes her face and trims her eye-brows tell her son not to trim his beard. Can such a woman tell her husband not to wear a Topi or a baseball cap?

f) Since the times of Guru Nanak, woman were accorded equality in spirituality. Is Turban something to do with our concept of spirituality. I am not sure, but from history I understand that during the bad times for the Sikhs, the head of the woman was also priced as the head of a young sikh teenager, as both used to be turbaned. Is this True? Also, some one mentioned that before 1921 all amritdhari women were also advised to wear a turban. Is this true?

g) American sikh women wear a turban and are so steadfast in their faith. Why did Yogiji insist that Sikh women wear a Turban? Even in India, many Groups ask their women to wear a Turban?

128550[/snapback]

BTW I'm not saying either camp is right or wrong in terms of what is the kakkar, as that is of course against forum rules. I'm simply saying that this proposed compromise fails to work when you think about it- the compromise actually supports the notion of keski as essential, which is a belief not shared byy both camps.

[H4RPAL]

Yea I'm confused as well.

The notion of this post is to compromise, not to distinguish between whether kes should be a kakaar or keski a kakaar. Ofcourse admin is gonna close this topic if it turns into another debate between kes and keski

If Guru Nanak gave men and women equal status in Sikhi, then why do only men wear a dastaar?

Sikhi, Turban and Woman

Once, I met a Western lady in Sydney and she asked me about my religion prompted by my Turban. I tried to explain to her as much as possible. I share a comment she made to me.

“So Muslims cover their women with Burka and Sikhs cover their men by a Turban”

This really made me think. I had thought all these years that we are treated equally in Sikh religion but what is this. I started thinking. The following points came to my mind -

a) In Sikh Religion all rules are common between man and woman. Women enjoy as much as spiritual bliss as would a man. Then why should a man wear a turban and woman need not? Is it something to do with spirituality, custom, circumstances, social behaviour?

b) A man passes through challenging times because of his turban. Over a period of time, a man becomes strong defending his turban and his style of dressing up. He also becomes proud as he has to defend himself all the time and conduct with some self-esteem – just to justify why he is turbaned.

c) How can a woman who has always lived like any other female in the society with freedom to do whatever with her hair (pony tail, jhurra, colouring, trimming, waxing, etc) ever understand the psychology of a Sikh turbaned man and what he passes through in daily life? How can she ever be his partner or companion, when she has herself not been strengthened over the years? So, I am not surprised when Sikh girls choose non-Sikhs boys in marriage.

d) Many Sikh Girls marry muslim boys and live the rest of their lives wearing burkas. Muslims are the fastest growing religion of the world and I have seen Muslim women fiercely defend wearing of the Burka. So, if we are logically consistent and transparent about the universal applicability of our Turbans, why our Sikh women will not wear a turban with pride. Afterall, American sikh women conduct themselves with such dignity and feminine grace, though wearing a Turban.

e) Can a Female who enjoys all the freedom like any other neighboring woman of non-Sikh religion impart Sikh values to her child. Let me clarify, can a woman who shaves her legs, waxes her face and trims her eye-brows tell her son not to trim his beard. Can such a woman tell her husband not to wear a Topi or a baseball cap?

f) Since the times of Guru Nanak, woman were accorded equality in spirituality. Is Turban something to do with our concept of spirituality. I am not sure, but from history I understand that during the bad times for the Sikhs, the head of the woman was also priced as the head of a young sikh teenager, as both used to be turbaned. Is this True? Also, some one mentioned that before 1921 all amritdhari women were also advised to wear a turban. Is this true?

g) American sikh women wear a turban and are so steadfast in their faith. Why did Yogiji insist that Sikh women wear a Turban? Even in India, many Groups ask their women to wear a Turban?

128550[/snapback]

Not all people believe that turban is neccesarry for women ( I'm not saying whether I do or don't), so the indicated post could spurn a discussion around this subject that will inevitably touch upon the issue of whether kesh or keski is kakkar,a nd hence breach the rules of the forum.

[kawalk]

wjkk wjkf

pyare khalsa jeo

If we see our history then keski is a kakkaar. Women have equal rights as men.

that means keski and dastaar is one and the same thing.

But I personally think women are afraid of Keski.

Women have bacome coward.

Now we are under the influence of hindu society.

That is why if some people are happy with the term Kes with Keski.

We should not mind because ultimately truth will have to come out.

Moreover I think again after some years when our cowardness will be finished.

We will come forward to say KESKI IS OUR RIGHT.

Now we donot have much knowledge of sikhi but our VALI VARIS GURU GOBIND SINGH WILL TAKE CARE OF US .HE WILL TEACH US SIKHI.