I Am Not Sikh

[Sweet Punjaban]

I thought it meant "there is only one God"..?

Ek obviously means one!

Oankaar

The word 'O-ankaar' denotes that God manifests Himself ceaselessly throughout His Creation in diverse forms, features and colours, and in this way becomes knowable to man. But, in spite of manifesting Himself diversing, God remains One; He remains Immanent in His Creation while at the same time remaining Transcendent. This God is at once One and Many implying Unity in Diversity. Kapur Singh suggests Oan = Transcedent, -kar = Immanent. The Mandukopanishad defines the word as: "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar. And that which triple transcends is Onkar too."

Transcendence = the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you.

He remains Immanent in His Creation

Immanence is the religious and metaphysical concept of a supreme divine force or being existing and acting within the physical world. This concept generally contrasts or coexists with the idea of transcendence.

Meaning HE exists within everything as he has created everything which exists!

If that makes any sense? lol :|

[Bhajan_preet]

That doesn't really make sense...

Where'd you get that definition of transcendence? That's not what it means, not according to dictionary.com. It actually means being supreme or "being above and independent of the material universe."

Being independant of the material universe would mean that God can't possibly be within us, right?

And by the Mandukopanishad's definition, that would make us God..? "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar." So, we "are", present, so we're Onkar? Okay, fine, but then it goes on to say that that which triple transcends is Onkar, too, meaning that which is uber supreme is also Onkar, so that refers to God, I'm assuming, making God and us the same, or is it meaning that there's something above God which puts God and us together? Or does triple transcend mean something else, not referring to God? I'm probably confused... Could you explain better?

[Sweet Punjaban]

That doesn't really make sense...

Where'd you get that definition of transcendence? That's not what it means, not according to dictionary.com. It actually means being supreme or "being above and independent of the material universe."

Being independant of the material universe would mean that God can't possibly be within us, right?

And by the Mandukopanishad's definition, that would make us God..? "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar." So, we "are", present, so we're Onkar? Okay, fine, but then it goes on to say that that which triple transcends is Onkar, too, meaning that which is uber supreme is also Onkar, so that refers to God, I'm assuming, making God and us the same, or is it meaning that there's something above God which puts God and us together? Or does triple transcend mean something else, not referring to God? I'm probably confused... Could you explain better?

Well my friend you are right, but that meaning of transcendence is in the religious form...as there are many meanings of the one word...

Transcendence may refer to:

Transcendence (mathematics):

Transcendental number, a real number that is not the root of any polynomial with rational coefficients

Transcendental element, an element of a field extension that is not the root of any polynomial with coefficients from the base field

Transcendental function, a function which does not satisfy a polynomial equation whose coefficients are themselves polynomials

Transcendence (philosophy), climbing or going beyond some philosophical concept or limit

Transcendence (religion), the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you

Transcendentalism, a philosophical movement that advocates that there is an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the physical and empirical

Transcendental idealism, a doctrine founded by 18th-century German philosopher Immanuel Kant

Transcendence (novel), a novel by Charles Sheffield

Transcendent (novel), a science-fiction novel by Stephen Baxter ....

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence

As for 'being' God...i am not saying that at all, all I merely meant was God is within all of us and everything around us....

On his fourth great journey in life Guru Nanak dressed in the blue garb of a Muslim pilgrim traveled to the west and visited Mecca, Medina and Baghdad. Arriving at Mecca, Guru Nanak fell asleep with his feet pointing towards the holy Kabba. When the watchman on his night rounds noticed this he kicked the Guru, saying, "How dare you turn your feet towards the house of God". At this Guru Nanak woke up and said, "Good man, I am weary after a long journey. Kindly turn my feet in the direction where God is not." When pilgrims and the holy men of the shrine gathered to hear Guru Nanak and question him, he sang in Persian;

"I beseech you, O Lord! pray grant me a hearing. You are the truthful, the great, the merciful, and the faultless Creator. I know for certain, this world must perish, And death must come, I know this and nothing else. Neither wife, nor son, nor father, nor brothers shall be able to help. I must go in the end, none can undo what is my fate. I have spend days and nights in vanity, contemplating evil. Never have I thought of good; this is what I am. I am ill-starred, miserly, careless, short-sighted, and rude. But says Nanak, I am yours, the dust of the feet of your servants." (Tilang)

Guru Nanak wished to tell all that god is everywhere, you cannot hide from him.

Tohee Mohee Mohee Tohee Antar Kaisaa

Kanak Katik Jal Trang Jaisaa

(As written in the SGGS) Ravidass' Hymns, see http://www.kettering.edu/~bguru/RaviDass.html

This basically is Ravidass asking God that what is the difference between you and me, between me and you? The difference is a mere illusion such as the difference between gold and a gold bracelet on one hand, or the water in the ocean and the waves on its surface in the other. So when the gold is melted that distiction between them is lost and when waves break they gel back into that same ocean....meaning there really is no difference we all become part of God eventually as we are already part of God. (I have actually posted this in another topic as well).

Finally, if Onkar means existence to me, then "That which was, is, will be, is all Onkar." As in "That which was, is, will be, is all existent" Right? "That which triple transcends is Onkar, too", meaning that triple transcends (as in mathematical form) is multiplied by three...thus still giving the answer of "existence"...

So you see, we all are actually all part of God according to this, as written in the SGGS. Well so I believe and interpret. You don't have to agree, but I hope it makes it a little clearer what I was trying to say. :|

[Bhajan_preet]

I'm not trying to say that that's what Guru Nanak Dev Ji was telling us; I'm just trying to find out what "ik oankaar" means. I agree with what you said about us being one with God, but is that what "ik oankaar" itself means? I don't want to create a huge debate about this, it's not as if it really matters. We can both agree that somewhere in gurbani it says both that God is within all things, and that there is only one God.

At Wikipedia, if you click on the link for "Transcendence (religion), the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you," the first line is, "In religion, transcendence is a condition or state of being that surpasses, and is independent of, physical existence." And I can't find any reference to God being close or separate on the page either.

I didn't mean to say that you actually said we were God or something; in fact, I was trying to show that you didn't mean to say that, and that by the definitions you gave, that's the weird/messed up/bizarre/odd/peculiar/queer/strange conclusion I came up with.

I'm kiiind of getting where you're going now :| Pardon my repetitive disagreements, it's all in good humor... but where did you get the definition of "onkar" being existence?

[Gupt Lion]

Jaap Naam through naam everythign will become clear to you

[Sweet Punjaban]

I'm not trying to say that that's what Guru Nanak Dev Ji was telling us; I'm just trying to find out what "ik oankaar" means. I agree with what you said about us being one with God, but is that what "ik oankaar" itself means? I don't want to create a huge debate about this, it's not as if it really matters. We can both agree that somewhere in gurbani it says both that God is within all things, and that there is only one God.

At Wikipedia, if you click on the link for "Transcendence (religion), the concept that God can be either close to you or very separate from you," the first line is, "In religion, transcendence is a condition or state of being that surpasses, and is independent of, physical existence." And I can't find any reference to God being close or separate on the page either.

I didn't mean to say that you actually said we were God or something; in fact, I was trying to show that you didn't mean to say that, and that by the definitions you gave, that's the weird/messed up/bizarre/odd/peculiar/queer/strange conclusion I came up with.

I'm kiiind of getting where you're going now :| Pardon my repetitive disagreements, it's all in good humor... but where did you get the definition of "onkar" being existence?

When you click on this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence the sixth description is the religious description...

As for the definition of onkar meaning existence, I explained that in my previous post...

Oan = Transcedent, -kar = Immanent

Immanence is the religious and metaphysical concept of a supreme divine force or being existing and acting within the physical world. This concept generally contrasts or coexists with the idea of transcendence.

It is not saying immanence is physical, it says the "supreme divine force" is existing and acting within the physical world, which is in accordance with your beliefs of transcedent meaning of:

"being above and independent of the material universe."

Which is quite rightly put actually. So in effect if it means Oan= transcedent, -kar= immanent, that should mean "being above and independant of the material universe, which exists and acts within the physical world". (Which is partly where I get my 'Onkar meaning existence' argument from).

I also have a friend who is a student in politics and philosophy and he actually deconstructed the word Onkar to get to the root of its origin and what it actually means, and he was the 1st to actually tell me Onkar means existence, as in God exists within everything. He also pointed out that if Guru Nanak had wanted to say "One God", why didn't he say "Ek Rab?", "Ek Bhagwan?", "Ek Khuda?", or even "Ek Vaheguru?", Why "Ek Onkar?"???? Which he has got a point huna?

Hope thats a bit clearer, and I'm glad your questioning my views in a constructive way because it gives us both space to learn more, and if I am wrong anywhere I can be cleared of my misunderstanding too! Lol we've started a whole new topic! :wub:

[Bad Girl]

What am I really?

ur the coolest person ive met on this forum :T:

[Khalsa_Girl_1]

What am I really?

ur the coolest person ive met on this forum :T:

:D hmmm

[Bad Girl]

wats ur prob miss damanpreet ??? :D

[Khalsa_Girl_1]

wats ur prob miss damanpreet ??? :D

dont mock me.

my problem atm is YOU.

you need to shut up...i know you ....

and you know what i meant by my previous posts on the other thread about you and "manjot"....stop acting stupid..

dont use my full name on the net, ya hear!!...

and stop using more than one sikhsagnat account

we aint stupid....we people on the this forum, know you and "manjot"....

peace...