Made-up sakhis.

[CFD]

who are we to judge the avastha of bhai jeeta ji? is that any of our business? thats for Guru ji to decide. Kirpa can happen in an instant.

I have a another sakhi, please read.

I did 125,000 paaths of japji sahib in 40 days and I realized that the sakhi about bhai jeeta ji is false. I obviously have immense kirpa from guru sahib.

Now you probably think i made this up. But who are you to judge my avastha??? LIke you said it's none of your business to judge my avastha right. How do you know guru sahib didn't do kirpa on me?

Let me say this... we should have sharda towars gursikhs but ultimately we are responsible for our own Sikhi and as such should analyze Sikh history and sikh rehit ourselves and not take everything on blind sharda.

If one can start to use "logic" and "math" to decide so positively that a sakhi is fake, then why draw the line when it comes to Guru Sahib? Does the same logic fall apart? if so, then please explain the following quote from Gurbani:

gurisKw AMdir siqguru vrqY

So if you don't analyze my sakhi then it would have to be true wouldn't it. I mean logic would say it's false but your own argumen

ts about not knowing anyone's avastha etc. would prove it to be true.

Guru sahib came in the body of a human ... he could have chosen to simply appear as a jot if he wanted but he chose a human body and thus was restricted most of the times by it's limitations.

Why did Singhs spend time doing gatka practice when guru sahib could have simply done kirpa and they would have been undefeatable.

we should realize that we cant walk around judging people's avasta. The guy living in your basement who keeps to himself could be a braham giani for all you know. some people keep it gupt. sometimes Guru ji does some kautic just for the sake of other people. this comes up hundreds of times in Gur Ethaas. Not all things go by face value as i stated before.

I agree not all things go by face value ... all I am saying is that we must be vigilant in our analysis of our history. I agree that it is very hard for us to know who a brahmgiani is etc.

It just seems to me that the only reason someone would believe the above Sakhi is because they really want it to be true.

[Shinda]

I have a another sakhi, please read.

I did 125,000 paaths of japji sahib in 40 days and I realized that the sakhi about bhai jeeta ji is false. I obviously have immense kirpa from guru sahib.

Telling lies within Sikhi is one of the greatest sins a sikh can commit. So if you did that and told people not only would you be talking out of hankaar (showing how much kirpa, and how high your avasta really reached) but would also be telling a lie, in which case you would be commiting a grave sin, unless of course you did in which case it is obvious that you do indeed have immense kirpa.

As per your mathematical analysis I find several flaws with it.

Firstly Singhs such as Bhai Nishaan Singh, or even Bhai Surjit Singh can read bani at emense speeds ie often complete a Sukhmani Sahib paht within 15 mins or less and they again are not alone.

Singhs such as Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji, where known for doing 125 Jap Ji Sahib Pahts a day even during the morcha. Using the same analytical analysis,

1 ang = 1 minuite

Jap Ji Sahib = 7 Angs = 7 minutes

125 x 7 = 875 minutes = 14 hours.

Now without factoring in sleep that leaves 10 hours open. Sant carried many responsiblities espeically during the morcha in which they would hold speechs, attend programs, hold diwans, santhia, katha etc. All these things factored in it could seem unrealistic, and this again was not including sleep.

But like you stat

ed earlier its different between a mahpursh and another premi.

We can also look at singhs such as Bhai Baljinder Singh who Sant Baba Takhur hold in esteem for their ability to do a full and complete recitation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji within a 12 hour time.

Now again according to the analysis you presented

1430 minutes = 23.83 hours....

Again this would deem untrue under such an analysis. Taking in your account that a fast pathi can recite bani at greater speeds we can half that, in which case it does hold true but logically would hold flaws, due to individuals pausing for breaths, difficulty of certain shabads etc)

Now to present another scenario one that you did not look at, firstly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji was staying with the Jatha, as such would have been constantly been studying and reading gurbani. Secondly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji recieved kirpa from a true a mahpursh under which anything is possible. Now again if we look at Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji doing abhiyaas of Sri Raag Maala Sahib over a 40 day period we can factor in that they would have had Sri Raag Maala Sahib Kanth (memorized). From personal observation it is easily seen that reciting banis we have kanth vs reading ones that we do not a marginally difference is observed in the speed.

Taking this into consideration I would propose that a time of 20 seconds per recitation of a Sri Raag Maala Paht be taken.

Thus..

20 * 125, 000 = 250 000 seconds = 41,666 minutes = 694 hours = 28.9 Round to 29 days.

Sleep -> During a Chaleesa one would most likely sleep no more then 3 hours a day, it can also be observed that while staying with Baba Ji I noted some Singhs would rarley sleep. Also doing sangat with Singhs from Sant Baba Gurbachan singhs times, i can say that many of them sleep for no more then 5 hours a night, on a regular scedhule. However as per Bhai Jeeta Singhs case they where on somewhat of a mission to complete and for this would sleep much less then normal, and as such say ab out 3

Hours a night for sleep.

thus

3 * 40 = 120 Hours of Sleep / 24 = 5 days.....

we would also like to factor in eating. During this period Bhai Sahib would have eaten very little as Singhs would in such situations. Thus propose that no more then 1 hour a day was taken for the eating of meals (most often on personal level I can complete a meal within 5 minutes which conists of 2 parshaday and daal) hence if we considered 5 meals which took no more then 5 minutes to consume then that only adds up to 25 mins. However for washroom breaks etc we'll factor it to be a total of 1 hour.

Thus 40 hours = 1.7 days..

Therfore if we tally everything up..

29 days -> Abhiyaas

5 days -> sleep

1.7 days -> food/washroom

=====

35.7 days

Leaving 4.3 days (103.2 hours) which we can use as a margin of error (ie it took more time one day or they slept a little extra etc)

Now even after presenting this analysis, I doubt I would have changed your mind on the authenticity of the sakhi, which was never my goal, rather I only posted to show that such anaylsis are prone to errors at different levels. In my own mind I do not doubt this sakhi, as I have met with other Singhs from Mahpursh's time who also recognize this sakhi. It is one also observed by Raag Ustaads, but in the end my beleif is that the only reason this sakhi became anything of any debate is only due to its relation with Sri Raag Maala Sahib. (which you may or may not beleive in as being Guru Di Bani which is something we will not get into). I highly doubt the authenticity of this sakhi would arise if it had to do with say Sri Jap Ji Sahib instead.

However regadless of what one beleives the one thing that this sakhi offers is those that hold sharda and do abhyaas of Gurbani, can under Guru Di Kirpa accomplish any task to which they set forth.

Apoglogies in advance if I have said anything to offend or if you are insulted in anyway by anything which I have said in the above.

dass

>shinda

[CFD]

Shinda Veerji,

I thought it was obvious that I had made up the story about me doing crazy amounts of paath. I made it up to prove a point.

But before I say anything else let me just this...when i read your post I did not get any vibes of anger or anything like I did from Gurmatveechar's posts. I got the feeling that you are very strong in your beliefs and I respect that. Also I was not offended in anyway after reading your post and appreciated your civil tone. B)

1 ang = 1 minuite

Jap Ji Sahib = 7 Angs = 7 minutes

125 x 7 = 875 minutes = 14 hours.

Now without factoring in sleep that leaves 10 hours open. Sant carried many responsiblities espeically during the morcha in which they would hold speechs, attend programs, hold diwans, santhia, katha etc. All these things factored in it could seem unrealistic, and this again was not including sleep.

So it took Baba Jarnail Singh ji 1 minute to do 1 ang.

I would propose that a time of 20 seconds per recitation of a Sri Raag Maala Paht be taken.

Raag mala is about 1 ang right so you are guessing for the sake of proving your point that Bhai Jeeta ji did 1 ang in 20 seconds.

So it took baba jarnail singh ji 1 minute to do 1 ang but bhai jeeta ji only took 20 seconds. You are saying he did paath faster then Baba Jarnail Singh ji did during the morcha....Baba Jarnail singh ji probably wanted to go as fast as he could becuase like you said he he had so many other obligations but you seem to be saying bhai jeeta ji was faster. :T:

Sleep -> During a Chaleesa one would most likely sleep no more then 3 hours a day, it can also be observed that while staying with Baba Ji I noted some Singhs would rarley sleep. Also doing sangat with Singhs from Sant Baba Gurbachan singhs times, i can say that many of them sleep for no more then 5 hours a night, on a regular scedhule. However as per Bhai Jeeta Singhs case they where on somewhat of a mission to complete and for this would sleep much less then normal, and as such say ab out 3 Hours a night for sleep.....

...we would also like to factor in eating. During this period Bhai Sahib would have eaten very little as Singhs would in such situations. Thus propose that no more then 1 hour a day was taken for the eating of meals...

...show that such anaylsis are prone to errors at different levels.

Veerji you yourself just said that my analysis is prone to error but in the above quotes you are doing exactly what you said I was doing. Analyzing the situation using your logic.

You naturally used l

ogic and analyzed the situation to come up with the numbers that make the story belivable giving the time frame and the extraordinary amount of paaths that we are talking about.

you seem to be coming up with numbers to try to make the story atleast believable. I mean why would baba jeeta ji need sleep at all ... like you said if baba gurbachan singh ji did kirpa on him he could do paath straight for 40 days couldn't he?

Why take out 1 hour for eating...?

regadless of what one beleives the one thing that this sakhi offers is those that hold sharda and do abhyaas of Gurbani, can under Guru Di Kirpa accomplish any task to which they set forth.

waheguru.

[Shinda]

CFT Jee,

I only post now to clarify different things to which it seems I was unable to make clear within my original post and hope to clarify different points as raised by you within your last reply.

I thought it was obvious that I had made up the story about me doing crazy amounts of paath. I made it up to prove a point.

I understand and got the point you where trying to prove, being that anyone can make a sakhi up. My main point was that although sakhis can easily be made up, Gursikhs have no will to lie. Although this sakhi was recited by Giani Takhur Singh Ji it was one that is known through out the Jatha and also known by other Gursikh veers and was taught to the Singhs by the Gurmukh Pyarai of the elder generation (Those from Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji’s) and passed to the younger generation (Sant Baba Kartaar Signh Ji’s, of which Giani Takhur Singh Ji is from) as such is the oral tradition of Khalsa History, where sakhis are carried down from the elder generation to the new generation.

1 ang = 1 minuite

Jap Ji Sahib = 7 Angs = 7 minutes

125 x 7 = 875 minutes = 14 hours.

Now without factoring in sleep that leaves 10 hours open. Sant carried many responsiblities espeically during the morcha in which they

would hold speechs, attend programs, hold diwans, santhia, katha etc. All these things factored in it could seem unrealistic, and this again was not including sleep.

I am not saying Sant Jaranil singh Ji read at this speed, rather applying the speed analysis which you used in your original post,

a good pathi takes 1 min to do raag mala da path

Being that Sri Raag Malaa Sahib is about one ang in length I assumed that by virtue of the theory you presented, all angs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, would take the same rate to read as per your analysis above. My main reasoning for bringing this point across was only to illustrate that applying such timings to even this situation (Sant Jarnail Singh reciting 125 Sri Jap Ji Sahib paths) logically seems unreasonable and I tried to illustrate that 14 hours was more time then Sant Jarnail Singh Ji had during the morcha.

So really what I’m trying to show is that Sant Jarnail Singh Ji did it much faster then 14 hours, however trying to prove it mathematically would make us assume otherwise and also make such a task seem illogical, and thus trying to show why such an analysis can never accurately measure how fast paath can be done. Similarly I used the examples of Bhai Surjit Singh Ji, Bhai Nishaan Singh Ji, and Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji, who can read bani at such speeds that mathematically (using that it takes one ang per minute or even two ang per minute) it does not seem to be possible.

Raag mala is about 1 ang right so you are

guessing for the sake of proving your point that Bhai Jeeta ji did 1 ang in 20 seconds.

The reasons I assumed this time, was also explained in my last reply, however I apologize for not clearly presenting my reasoning behind it.

1. Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji was staying with the Jatha, as such would have been constantly studying and reading Gurbani. This point is made as it is evident that constant recital of Bani would make one more inept and faster in reading/reciting it.

2. Secondly Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji received kirpa from a true a mahpursh under which anything is possible.

3. Lastly, if we look at Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji doing abhiyaas of Sri Raag Maala Sahib over a 40 day period we can factor in that they would have had Sri Raag Maala Sahib Kanth (memorized). From personal observation it is easily seen that reciting banis we have kanth vs reading ones that we do not a marginal difference is observed in the speed.

From the following I assumed that it take 20 seconds as similarly you gave your reasoning that a good pathi on average would take a minute.

So it took baba jarnail singh ji 1 minute to do 1 ang but bhai jeeta ji only took 20 seconds. You are saying he did paath faster then Baba Jarnail Singh ji did during the morcha....Baba Jarnail singh ji probably wanted to go as fast as he could becuase like you said he he had so many other obligations but you seem to be saying bhai jeeta ji was faster.

Jee, as I hopefully made clear above, this is not the case at all. Rather my comparison was to show that the speed at which you showed in your analysis (one minute per ang) could be shown to make different amounts of reading speeds seem impossible and

illogical. My backing up of this and critique on your analysis (of assuming one or two ang per minute) included looking at different pathis, and these included Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji etc.

Veerji you yourself just said that my analysis is prone to error but in the above quotes you are doing exactly what you said I was doing. Analyzing the situation using your logic.

You naturally used logic and analyzed the situation to come up with the numbers that make the story belivable giving the time frame and the extraordinary amount of paaths that we are talking about.

Jee, my analysis is also prone to error and myself am only giving another outlook on it. As you, yourself stated I maybe doing so only in defense of this Sakhi (which I myself believe to be true) but at the same time one can say, that you are trying to disprove this sakhi within your own posts according to your own logic. For this reason I have adopted a manor similar to that of your own, in analyzing this sakhi. A completely different method was done by GurmatVeechar, however after reading your posts, it almost seemed as if you where deeming his reasoning illogical and unfitting therefore, I tried to prove this point with similar logic/manor as to that you yourself presented earlier.

you seem to be coming up with numbers to try to make the story atleast believable. I mean why would baba jeeta ji need sleep at all ... like you said if baba gurbachan singh ji did kirpa on him he could do paath straight for 40 days couldn't he?

Why take out 1 hour for eating...

?

The human body in itself is limited. I myself do not know if Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji slept or not. I am only making the assumption for two reasons.

1. This roop itself is limited to the laws that govern it but as you stated, and as GurmatVeechar illustrated such limitations can easily be broken with Kirpa.

2. In your original post the tone you took in which you stated “and this is all WITHOUT the singh SLEEPING even for a minute.” seemed quite sarcastic and for this reason felt that only after factoring in sleep, food, and washroom breaks in my own analysis would it be satisfactory for you. I personally feel that if I did not include these in my analysis then you would have later critiqued me for not doing so, and thus thought it safe to address these concerns. (I again apologize for making this assumption as it appears it would deem untrue to this situation).

In closing, I hope that I have cleared the things that it seemed where not clear in the original posting based on your last post. I would also like to say that (again making the assumption, that you yourself do not believe in Sri Raag Malaa Sahib) that when hearing sakhis such as these that conflict with personal views one may deem them untrue (a trait shared amongst all humans). In example if one was to try and share sakhis of the Guru Sahiban, Mahaan Shaheeds etc to atheists or those who do not follow Sikhi then to such individuals these sakhis would also seem greatly fabricated and made up and they would deem them illogical etc. However it is our trust and faith in the Guru’s and in Guru day Sikh that shape our own beliefs and bring us closer to Guru Sahibaan. Sikhi in the end is a game of love, and after all how can love exist if there is no trust. I feel that we have now analyzed this sakhi to the point where it is now up to the readers to decide for themselves what they deem to be illogical or not.

I can only now ask for forgiveness if I have mis

quoted you and for any false assumptions that I have made.

Dass

Shinda

[CFD]

Shinda Veerji a very good post and i like your writing style.

Just a few concerns I have with it...

only to illustrate that applying such timings to even this situation (Sant Jarnail Singh reciting 125 Sri Jap Ji Sahib paths) logically seems unreasonable and I tried to illustrate that 14 hours was more time then Sant Jarnail Singh Ji had during the morcha.

You said you were trying to illustrate that 14 hours was more time then Sant ji had during the morcha.

First of all from all the history I've personally read and I've heard, i understand that during the time he was a farmer baba Jarnail Singh ji did over a 100 japji sahibs. I have known a few TAksal Singhs and none of them can verify the claim of bab ji doing 125 japji sahib paaths during the morcha. Where did this number come from?

Secondly,

when you mention that 14 hours was more then sant ji had during the morcha i totally agree with you. Isn't it more likely that a singh who would do paath with sharda and "listens to it and follows it" (sunia mania maan kita bhao) would derive shakti from just one japji sahib da paath.

Veerji your whole argument seems to be based on giving people superhuman powers.

I will bet you anything 2 years from now we will hear that bab ji did 200 japji paaths in a day.

The fact is that the amount of sharda that you claim bhai jeeta ji had and the amount of kirpa he h

ad even one paath would have been enough. Remember the sakhi of Makhan Shah he did 1 japji sahib and his whole ship etc. was saved.

I will ask again. Why did the Singhs need to sleep and eat?

The fact is that even guru sahib respected the limitation of the human form he was given...guru gobind singh ji's body died because a fatal wound opened. Guru ARjan dev ji's shahidi.

Actually at one time I heard that baba jarnail singh ji did 25 japji sahib day paath during the morcha. I am not sure if this is true or false.

It's just that after his shaheedi people started to attribute these superhumans powers to him for God knows what reason.

A lot of things are based on faith and I agree with you but please try to follow my logic.

We were discussing a highly improbable story and the only real arguments I have heard so far are that because Baba Gurbachan Singh was a hamapurush that makes the story true. This is the case with a lot of arguments that people use. But the problem is that the only real mahapurush a Singh needs is the guru granth Sahib ji.

I doubt Baba Gurbachan Singh ji would give such powers to a Singh when Guru Sahib is ever present. "Those who consider themselves to be the lowest , count them to be the highest of all". Also the part about baba Gurbachan singh telling the singh ask for whatever you want? Singhs don't get other people attached to them they get people attached to guru sahib. So by your logic by first giving him the ability to do so many paaths then giving him a boon it seems to me you are saying baba Gurbachan singh ji took on the role of guru sahib?????

If Bhai jeeta did so many paaths then he did sewa of guru sahib and not of baba gurbachan singh ji and thus if wanted to be given the boon to die while doing keertan he would have gotten it from guru sahib.

Now also all the paathi's you mentioned did paaths at good speeds but none of them close to that which bhai jeeta ji was able to do and

he was a ragi. So how does that work?

I agree that spending time with singhs etc. can help person increase their speed but to the superhuman speed of 125,000 paaths in 40 days. come on. If you are going to use the argument of kirpa the why not do it in 5 days. why 40? anything is possible right? why not do it in 125000 paaths in 1 second or in 1 breath.? better yet if sant ji was going to do kirpa on him why not just bless him with the power to do raag keertan.

You also mention an excellent point.

>>>>The human body in itself is limited. I myself do not know if Bhai Jeeta Singh Ji slept or not. I am only making the assumption for two reasons.

1. This roop itself is limited to the laws that govern it but as you stated, and as GurmatVeechar illustrated such limitations can easily be broken with Kirpa.

>>>>

As i have mentioned before the human body is definitely limited. A lot of the Singhs chose to stay in bhana and the limitations of their bodies. Baba deep singh ji did an ardaas and guru sahib listened. The sahibzadee when they were fighting 1000's of mughals, got shaheed because of the limitations of their human bodies. They chose to respect the form that waheguru had given them and respected it as such by living with it's limitations.

Now as to your reasoning for assuming 20 seconds. Do you recognize that if you would have chosen 30 seconds the whole scenario becomes impossible?

cleared the things that it seemed where not clear in the original posting based on your last post. I would also like to say that (again making the assumption, that you yourself do not believe in Sri Raag Malaa Sahib) that when hearing sakhis such as these that conflict with personal views one may deem them untrue (a trait shared amongst all humans). In example if one was to try and sh

are sakhis of the Guru Sahiban, Mahaan Shaheeds etc to atheists or those who do not follow Sikhi then to such individuals these sakhis would also seem greatly fabricated and made up and they would deem them illogical etc. However it is our trust and faith in the Guru’s and in Guru day Sikh that shape our own beliefs and bring us closer to Guru Sahibaan. Sikhi in the end is a game of love, and after all how can love exist if there is no trust. I feel that we have now analyzed this sakhi to the point where it is now up to the readers to decide for themselves what they deem to be illogical or not.

Talking about faith, complete trust etc. is much like building a house by talking about it. It doesn't happen. When we live it then it becomes faith.

In japji it says, "kiv sachiara hoea, kiv koora tutay paal, hukam razie chalana nanak likhia naal"

meaning"How do i become truthful, how do i break down this wall of illusion" guru sahib answers "by living under/ following human".

So as such us having a human body and it's natrual limitations is a hukam from waheguru. The only case where singhs have transcened the physical limitation of their bodies have been rather extreme and much more extreme then getting time at a raag samagam.

Or when they have been in immense raas and lose all sense of the physical world but that has nothing to do with the sakhi.

Sikhi is truly the game of love. We have to give up our maan, dhan, taan to guru sahib. We have to follow his hukams to the best of our ability.

so ultimately i would suggest the following to any reader.

go take a hukamnama about this sakhi and see what guru sahib is saying. But the hukamnama is only valid if you do it first with an open mind, sharda and proper rehit. As in larivaar saroop of maharaj and taking the hukamnama from the ang on the left if the shabad starts at the top of the ang. If it doesn't go back on

e ang and read the last shabad on the ang which will continue on to the original ang your eyes were blessed with the vision of.

So if i were to take a hukamnama and I got the ang 770 on the left hand side then i would read the shabad from the top of ang 770. If shabad didn't start their then I would go to ang 769 and read the last shabad on the ang and the shabad will continue onto ang 770.

Who am i to convince anyone of the truth? Do it for yourselves.

The rest guru sahib knows.

As always in the spirit of Panthic Chardi kala.