Dasam Granth/ Bachittar Natak Granth

[GPS]

Defenders of Dasam Granth never answer why chatitropakhyan and hikayaten can be part of guru's writings ?

The answers I have heard are

1. You need mature mind to understand that.

2. They are written so that you don't do that.

for #1, Maybe one of you who has mature mind can shed some light on that.

#2 is outright silly. This is equivalent to showing somebody "dirty" movie and saying never do that.

.

Critics of charitropakhayan need to understand that they came to this world because of union of their parents. Do they deny that?

If they deny that they need to state how they came to this world?

Charitropakhayan condemns sexual union out of wedlock.That is why Guru sahib has mandated such a union as a bajjer kurehit.

Charitropakhayan are cautionery advising reader that blind lust is sinful and harmful for a healthy society.But uneducated followers

of kala afghana and Darshan lal fail to comprehend the essence.

For example they frequently criticize charitra 266 without understanding literary rules outlined in this charitra.Thus they commit a

mortal sin in criticizing writings of Guru sahib.

Now this so called Darshansingh2357 has termed hikayats as obscene.This shows he knows nothing about hikayats. I challenge this midget

scholar to cite a hikayat whcih bothers him.Otherwise he should retract his statement.

Do you know the meaning of Metaphors?

[GPS]

The second strategy defenders use is:

1. Calling names to people who raise point that against Dasam Granth. Things like "Darshan Lal"

Darshan Ragi is called Darshan lal because

1 He does not know anything about Dasam Granth

2 He started compaign against Dasam Granth without having read it

and that is a deception and a sin.

3 He is excommunicated and hence is no more a sikh.

Darshan singh wrote'

2. Calling them hindu agents - Outright silly again

: A person who is hindu agent - why would he reject a granth which have long stories eulogizing hindu deities.

It shows you have not read Dasam Granth sahib. If there is any sikh scripture that strikes at roots of Brahminism, it is

Dasam Granth only. You have been shown verses in support of that.Let us have verses from you supporting your statement.

I know you can write bukwas only but will flee when asked for specifics.Show us which verse of Dasam Granth eulogise

Hindu deities?

Darshansingh2357 wrote

: I think attributing such stories to Guru Gobind Singh is greater insult. Please explain why would he write those.

Again same bukwas which is far from truth. The following verses from Dasam Granth sahib are a slap on your face.

You claim yourself a khalsa but khalsas do not lie. You are a lair and an imposter who claim to be a khalsa but disown the bani

whcih makes a sikh a khalsa.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

* If you consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take birth from the womb of Kaushalya? He, who is said to be the destroyer of death, then why did he become subjugated himself before death?

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥

* If he (Krishna) is said to be unborn and without a beginning, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki? He, who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?

Dasam Granth sahib

Nastik lobby of your tribe is not friend of Sri Guru Granth sahib also.Spokesman editor has proved that time and again by writing against and disowning SGGS in the recent past. he was one of the main slanderer of Dasam Bani to start with. Now his attack is on SGGS ji. Faithless persons are not well wishers of religion.

[darshansingh2357]

For example they frequently criticize charitra 266 without understanding literary rules outlined in this charitra.Thus they commit a

mortal sin in criticizing writings of Guru sahib.

Thats exactly your problem. The critics love GURU and hence cannot imagine Guru writing such absurd stuff. They criticize YOU who says our GURU wrote it.

Now this so called Darshansingh2357 has termed hikayats as obscene.This shows he knows nothing about hikayats. I challenge this midget

scholar to cite a hikayat whcih bothers him.Otherwise he should retract his statement.

Do you know the meaning of Metaphors?

e.g. Hikayat reaches the climax of horror in tale 12, where a Pathan woman from fear of her husband kills her lover, cooks him, and serves him up as a special feast to her hungry husband and his friends, thus winning his approval.

Why would GURU write such stuff ?

Metaphor - please explain metaphor to me.

[darshansingh2357]

Darshan Ragi is called Darshan lal because

1 He does not know anything about Dasam Granth

2 He started compaign against Dasam Granth without having read it

and that is a deception and a sin.

3 He is excommunicated and hence is no more a sikh.

You already called me names -(midget) and made it uncordial (bakwas and all that). But I will refrain to go to your level.

And sir, whats your resume compared to Prof Darshan Singh, ex-Jathedar Akal takhat.

I am intelligent enough to be decepted.

The excommunication proceedings were extremely shady. He respectfully went to Akal Takhat as response to the summons. But, the people controlling the Akal Takhat, did not want proceedings to happen in open court, which was always the case. Prof wanted NO backroom dealings, and he wanted the sangat to listen to him. The Jathedars are supposed to represent the Khalsa Sangat, failed to do so.

I know you can write bukwas only but will flee when asked for specifics.Show us which verse of Dasam Granth eulogise

Hindu deities?

Again same bukwas which is far from truth. The following verses from Dasam Granth sahib are a slap on your face.

You claim yourself a khalsa but khalsas do not lie. You are a lair and an imposter who claim to be a khalsa but disown the bani

whcih makes a sikh a khalsa.

Ram Avatar and Krishna avatar: Are they not eulogies to Rama and Krishna

The quotes you showed as slap in the face of Brahminism. Ik Onkar itself is slap in the face of polytheistic people. And every granth has many quotes against polytheism. And the point is NOT that there in no content which matches Sikh Philosophy. The POINT is that there is enough content which doesn't gel well with Sikh way of thought, and sikh's image of Gurus.

[GPS]

And porn shows exactly that. Is that permissible ?

What did your parents do to bring you to this world? What you and your wife do in your bedroom?

You need to learn the definition of porn.Porn is in your mind only.For Gurmukhs these are tales

to warn him of moral pitfalls.

Learn to discuss things in a gentleman's way.

How did you get that essence ? Can you read those stories loud with translation in front of your mother/sister/daughter. The stories have EXPLICIT anal sex.

Who in right mind can believe Guru wrote detailed poetic description of anal sex. Should I quote this, or you already know, I rather not spend time to find that.

The stories deal with characters of questionable morality. Sikh teachings ask us to control lust. Dasam Granth tells us this is lust.

When you discuss a subject to drive home message you have to use the language of the sugject.

Persons of low morality do indulge in such things.The teachings are cautionery and are for Gurmukh jogis. Those who are preverts

will will take it other way.

Thats exactly your problem. The critics love GURU and hence cannot imagine Guru writing such absurd stuff. They criticize YOU who says our GURU wrote it.

Again same bukwas.I wrote that people of your tribe do not have knowledge of literature to understand this charitra 266 and they misinterpret it.

Your answer proves that.

e.g. Hikayat reaches the climax of horror in tale 12, where a Pathan woman from fear of her husband kills her lover, cooks him, and serves him up as a special feast to her hungry husband and his friends, thus winning his approval.

Why would GURU write such stuff ?

Metaphor - please explain metaphor to me.

Tell us which hikayat? Give the exact verse here instaed of generalising?

You are discussing like a scholar here and is ignorant of meaning of metaphor.Dasam Granth is full of metaphors.

[GPS]

You already called me names -(midget) and made it uncordial (bakwas and all that). But I will refrain to go to your level.

And sir, whats your resume compared to Prof Darshan Singh, ex-Jathedar Akal takhat.

I am intelligent enough to be decepted.

The excommunication proceedings were extremely shady. He respectfully went to Akal Takhat as response to the summons. But, the people controlling the Akal Takhat, did not want proceedings to happen in open court, which was always the case. Prof wanted NO backroom dealings, and he wanted the sangat to listen to him. The Jathedars are supposed to represent the Khalsa Sangat, failed to do so.

Do not expect me to be a spectator to your bukwas against Dasam bani.

You are not allowed to do this type of bukwas on this site as it is against

guidelines.

Darshan singh is a 10 standard ragi who writes himself a professor.What a thuggery.

I do not indulge in such type of thuggery.

He kicked out his mother out of his home and di not attend her bhog also.

Did you not read this?

I am not an akirtghan who will write against dasam bani which he was singing all his life.

Ram Avatar and Krishna avatar: Are they not eulogies to Rama and Krishna

Ram Avtar and krishna avtar have been written to humanfy these avtars. This brings these avtars to

earth from hevaenly status.

Give me verses from Ram avtar and krishna avtar to prove your point. You have not been able to do this .

This shows you are here to indulge in propaganda and spread lies.

[GPS]

There are a few from kala afghana school of thought whose purpose is to spread misinformation.One of them writes that Ram and krishna avtar in dasam Granth are in praise of tehse deities.

That is outright lie.When asked to quote verses from these to prove their point they remain silent.

Here are a few verses from these to disprove them

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਰਾਮ ਭਏ ਕਿਤੇ ਪੁਨ ਕਾਲ ਪਾਇ ਬਿਹਾਨ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਕੋ ਅਨ ਕਾਲ ਕੈ ਅਕਲੰਕ ਮੂਰਤ ਮਾਨ ॥

क्रिशन राम भए किते पुन काल पाइ बिहान ॥ काल को अन काल कै अकलंक मूरत मान ॥

Because of the impact of KAL, many Krishna and Ramas have been created, but KAL himself is indestructible and blemishless;

ਜਾਸਿ ਪਾਇ ਭਯੋ ਸਭੈ ਜਗ ਜਾਸ ਪਾਇ ਬਿਲਾਨ ॥ ਤਾਹਿ ਤੈ ਅਬਿਚਾਰ ਜੜ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਕਾਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਨ ॥੯॥੮੩॥

जासि पाइ भयो सभै जग जास पाइ बिलान ॥ ताहि तै अबिचार जड़ करतार काहि न जान ॥९॥८३॥

He, with the impact of whose Feel, the world is created and destroyed, O fool ! why do you not pray to Him, considering Him as the creator?.9.83.

ਨਰਹਰਿ ਜਾਨ ਕਾਹਿ ਨ ਲੇਤ ॥ ਤੈ ਭਰੋਸ ਪਰਯੋ ਪਸ਼ੂ ਜਿਹ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੱਧਿ ਅਚੇਤ ॥

नरहरि जान काहि न लेत ॥ तै भरोस परयो पशू जिह मोहि ब्धि अचेत ॥

O being ! Why do you not comprehend the Lord and are lying unconscious in attachment under the impact of maya?

ਰਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਰਸੂਲ ਕੋ ਉਠਿ ਲੇਤ ਨਿਤਪ੍ਰਤ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਵੈ ਅਬ ਜੀਅਤ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਗਾਉ ॥੧੦॥੮੪॥

राम क्रिशन रसूल को उठि लेत नितप्रत नाउ ॥ कहा वै अब जीअत जग मै कहा तिन को गाउ ॥१०॥८४॥

O being ! You always remember the names of Rama, Krishna and Rasul, tell me, are they alive and is there any abode of theirs in the world?10.84.

Chaubis avtar, dasam granth

[GPS]

If this discussion is beyond the rules of this forum, I will stop here, without agreeing with you. If moderators let me continue, they have a chance that I understand their view.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW

And I don't want anybody calling names such as Bhagauda as you have been calling the other lady who wrote before me. The policy of this forum is "bhagauda" if they stop honest discussion with fellow sikhs.

This is a sikh forum and one of the gudielines is no criticim of dasam bani is allowed here.Moderators have allowed you

leeeway so far.But you need to abide by decorum.

I am asking for quotes from ram avtar and krishna avtar to prove your point where you stated that Dasam Granth eulogises

these deities. You have failed to do this so far.

The fact is there is nothing in Dasam Granth like that. It denounces those who believe in these deities. Where did you learn what you are writing here.Your lies are exposed.Now you will also flee like that fake lady.may be bring Darshan lal and we will teach that uneducated scholar about Dasam Granth.

dasam Granth teaches us supremeness of akal purakh

ਜੋਨਿ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਆਯਾ ॥

जोनि जगत मै कबहूं न आया ॥

Thou dost not take birth in the world;

ਯਾਤੇ ਸਭੋ ਅਜੋਨ ਬਤਾਯਾ ॥੧੩॥

याते सभो अजोन बताया ॥१३॥

Therefore all called Thee `Ajon` (Unborn).13.

Chaubis avtar, Dasam granth

Then Guru sahib writes

Kal purakh ki deh me Kotak Bishen mahesh

Kot Inder brahma Kitte Rav sas kror jales

In the body of kal Purakh there are crores of Shivas and vishnus

There are also many brahmas, suns,moons, and varuna devtas

Chaubis avtar, dasam granth

[GPS]

Darshansingh2357 writes

The quotes you showed as slap in the face of Brahminism. Ik Onkar itself is slap in the face of polytheistic people. And every granth has many quotes against polytheism. And the point is NOT that there in no content which matches Sikh Philosophy. The POINT is that there is enough content which doesn't gel well with Sikh way of thought

That is why Dasam Granth sahib compositions start with ik onkar shri waheguru ji ki fateh.Do not you know this?

Chaubis avtar describes stories about about avtars of Vishnu in narrative form. The base story has been taken from Bhagwat Purana, altered by Guru sahib with major additions from him and thus brought that in line with Gurmat .

Earlier you wrote that this Granth has stories that eulogises Hindu deities.Read below

Darshansingh2357 writes

A person who is hindu agent - why would he reject a granth which have long stories eulogizing hindu deities

When shown the contents of these compositions you seem to be changing your statement. You need to understand that message of Dasam Granth is strictly monotheistic.That is the reason Guru sahib advises not to consider these deities as God.

Read below

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥(ਕ੍ਰਿ.ਵਤਾਰ)

* I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Lord.434.

ਖੋਜ ਰਹੇ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਸੇ ਜਿਹ ਅੰਤ ਅਨੰਤ ਕਹਿਓ ਥਕ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ਤਾਹੀ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਸੁਨੋ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਇਹੈ ਠਹਰਾਯੋ ॥੨੪੦੩॥

* He, whom Shiva etc. had been searching, but could not know His Mystery; O Shukdev ! relate to me the story of that Lord.2403.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

* Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

From Dasam Granth sahib

The above is proof to debunk your blasphemy.You have no clue about contents of Dasam Granth sahib otherwise you would not have commented so foolishly on hikayat no 12.

Hikayats are a message to Aurangzeb from Guru sahib.Citing hikayat 12 Guru sahib is telling Aurangzeb that so many sins are occuring in his regime and he is unmindful about bad conduct of his subordinates. The plot of hikayat is an example and not a reality.It is mere shamelessness on your part that you do not understand hikayats and presenting a totally biased picture here.

Did you read stories in your middle school.Those stories had moral lesson in the end. In the same way hikayat 12 like others has moral lesson. A bankcrupt mind will not understand this.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Darshansingh2357, We do not allow any discussions on the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, do read the forum rules before posting. Consider this your first warning. Topic closed.