Singh132

Khalsa4ever, You pasted, >>>>>>> Only by being a Hindu or a Muslim one can not get accepted in the court of the Lord. hindhoo musalamaan dhoe dharagehi andhar lain n dtoee|| As the colour of safflower is impermanent and is washed away in water, likewise the colours of religiosity are also temporary. kachaa rang kusunbh kaa paanee dhhothai thhir n rehoee|| (Followers of both the religions) In their expositions, denounce Ram and Rahim. karan bakheelee aap vich raam reheem kuthhaae khaloee|| The whole of the world is following the ways of Satan. raah shaithaanee dhuneeaa goee ||aa|| >>>>>>>>> This translation is not correct at all. Let's do it again and you tell me which is more correct. hindhoo musalamaan dhoe dharagehi andhar lain n dtoee|| Hindus and Muslims both, in the divine court will not find any place ""dtoee" means support/place. kachaa rang kusunbh kaa paanee dhhothai thhir n rehoee|| The colour of the kusunbh flower is temporary (kachaa); when washed it does not stay. karan bakheelee aap vich raam reheem kuthhaae khaloee|| They have enimity amongst each other; Ram and Rahim stand together (God is the same) [bakhili means enimity. I don't know where this translator came up with that random translation] raah shaithaanee dhuneeaa goee ||aa|| The world and earth (goee means earth) are on the path of Satan. Now tell me Khalsa4ever, does this shabad support the fact that other religions do not find the Ultimate Destination or does it support your argument that all go there.

Reaching Vahiguru is beyond paradise. Bani says as much. Paradise is a very lowly thing. Sachkhand is something totally different. You haven't rebutted any of my points. You brought up Guru Gobind Singh in Bachitar Natak. First I ask, do you know what Guru Gobind Singh was when he talks about his time in Hemkunt? Was he a human? Was he a spirit? How do you know it was before Guru Nanak? Does it say anywhere how he reached the state he was in? How can you say it was without Guru Nanak's kirpa? Bani says there is no Guru but Guru Nanak and only Gurmat Naam unites one with Vahiguru. According to these unbending principles, only someone who has taken naam from Guru Nanak can unite with God. At any rate, if you want to debate it, rather than making statements over and over, either present your own evidence or prove that the statements I have made are wrong.

Khalsa4Ever, I'm glad you replied. You said: "so each person will perceive 'heaven' differently" That's fine and good, but heaven is not somewhere a Sikh wants to go. Heaven exists, no doubt, but it is not anywhere near Sachkhand. Gursikhs say, nwnk nwim ibswirAY nrk surg Avqwr ]9] This means, if you forsake naam, then you are subject to heaven, hell and reincarnation. Without naam, Muslims, Christians, etc. will go to their paradise but then be reborn over and over until they get naam. Then you can say kbIr surg nrk qy mY rihE siqgur ky prswid ] This means only by the grace of the Satguru, is someone saved from both Heaven and Hell. You quoted a shabad. I want to now go over it with you and reflect on what Guru Sahib has said. You highlighted, "some call him raam raam...". Yes, of course they do. Guru Sahib is stating a fact. Just like he states that some call themselves Muslims and others Hindus, and some bathe at pilgrimage and some go to Mecca. Are you saying Guru Sahib is approving these things and saying they are worthwhile and all the same path to God? Because that is logically not possible. If these are part of a path to God, then the examples that follow like going to Mecca and bathing in pilgrimage are good too and also true religion. Guru Sahib has already told us going to Mecca and bathing at pilgrimage is not going to lead to God. The essence of this shabad is two fold. 1) kaarun karun kareem kirpaa dhaar raheem. Vahiguru blesses and loves all people regardless of religion. But that doesn't mean all end up going to him. 2) Kahu Nanak jin hukum pachhata, prabh sahib ka tin bhaed jata What is the Hukum? Gurbani, whenever it talks about hukum talks about naam. eyko nwmu hukmu hY nwnk siqguir dIAw buJwie jIau ]5] This clearly means, the ONE Naam (Gurmat naam) is the Hukam and this has been explained by the Satguru. So, for these reasons, and the ones already given, Naam is only available from Guru Nanak (bani tells us this). Only naam can liberate us. The rest of the religions, will get what they work for (paradise, etc.) but that is not the ultimate destination. Ultimate Destination is through Guru Nanak's path only.

The people that think all religions lead to the same goal are very deluded. Muslims want to go to heaven with rivers of wine and untouched virgins. Is this the same as Sachkhand? Please give me some evidence from Guru Granth Sahib to support that all religions go to the same place. All humans are born equal. All deserve the same respect. All are loved by God. But that doesn't mean all religions are true. They are not. from www.whyichosesikhism.com A: It is a TOTALLY FALSE argument that Sikhism believes all paths lead to the same goal and thus all religions are equal: From its very inception, Gurmat has been declared a unique and distinct path. Bhai Gurdas writes: "the Guru has created the mighty Gurmukh panth. This panth keeps itself away from the boundaries of the Vedas and the Semitic scriptures..." (Bhai Gurdas, 23.19) SGGS over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can find Akaal or reach sachkhand. Gurmat naam is only available in the house of Guru Nanak: "Nanak kai ghar keval, naam" . Keval means "only". Without naam, no one can find God. GurbaaNee is clear about this fact: Nanak naam binaa ko mukath n hoee Translation:O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, no one is liberated Where is this naam to be found? From the Guru. bin gur naam n paaeiaa jaae Translation:Without the Guru, the Naam cannot be obtained. Satguru Nanak is the only true Guru who has preached naam, and given gurmat-naam. As for other acts of "religion", this is what Guru Nanak says: theeruthh thup dhaeiaa dhuth dhaan || Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity jae ko paavai thil kaa maan || these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit. suniaa mu(n)niaa man keethaa bhaao || Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind, a(n)thurugath theerathh mal naao || cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within....... So, unless someone receives Gurmat Naam from Guru Nanak, there is no liberation. They will be rewarded for their good karma, but not liberated. They don't want liberation! Christians are content with heaven, and they will receive it. But then they will enter the cycle of births and deaths again, hopefully in a life which will bring them closer to liberation. Gurmat Panth's respect of all religions goes as far as saying that they are not sent to eternal hell, they will get what they work for. Like Harmandir Saahib: God is open and available to all directions and all people of the world, but the path to God is ONE: Gurmat. About other faiths: eik jainee oujhurr paae dhhuruhu khuaaeiaa || Some are Jains, wasting their time in the wilderness; by their pre-ordained destiny, they are ruined. panna 1285 hi(n)dhoo a(n)nhaa thurukoo kaanaa || The Hindu is blind; the Muslim has only one eye. panna 875 In many other places it is made clear that Gurmat, the way of the Giani, who meditates on Gurmat Naam is the only path to Akaal. Others will get their heaven etc. but not find Akaal. All faiths will get what they work towards. Only Gurmat has a concept such as Sach Khand and God-Realisation in such a clear way. Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand and merger with Akaal. Who else is the true Guru of status of Guru Nanak? Mohammad? Jesus? Krishna? Rama? There is none. These prophets don't come close to even the Sikhs of Guru Nanak, let alone Guru Nanak himself. GurbaaNee leaves no doubt: "Sabh tay Vadaa Satgur Nanak, Jin kal raakhee mayree" meaning Satuguru Nanak is THE GREATEST who has protected my honour in this age of darkness (Kaljug).

There are quite a few Muslims in Punjab. They have multiple mosques in all the main cities and many pinds now have mosques as well.

Heera Singh, Please don't let yourself believe it's only "typical indian mentality". I've seen it too many times in our generation as well. All the young people go "where's the proof??" Come on. Do you think the girl took pictures and videotaped the incident? That's why girls don't come forward. They know people won't believe them and if they do, they'll say she is to blame as well. I wish all of us would stop trying to be detectives and "bahllay smart". When someone makes an accusation like this, they're not doing it for fun. They are taking a big risk. Listen to what they say. See if they're story makes sense and if they have credibility. Don't expect physical "proof". That's how the courts handle it and I think we should have enough sense to do the same. There are A LOT of sexual predators out there. More than you would expect even in the Sikh community. They get away with it though because we make it easy for them to do so and usually make it harder on the vicitims.

Sikhi is the only path to the ultimate destination ie. Sachkhand. Naam is available only from Satguru. Gurbani makes it clear that no one has found or will find God without Satguru. Who is Satguru. Only Guru Nanak. Unless you want to claim Mohammed is one (slept with a 9 year old) or Jesus was one. They also don't give any naam. Naam is only Gurmat naam from Satguru Nanak, received at amrit sinchaar. The difference between Sikhi and Islam is that while Islam throws non-believers into hell, Sikhi says the followers of other religions will get their rewards as they deserve them. They are not automatically condemned. But they just cannot reach Sachkhand without Guru Nanak.

No confusion. Punjabi is the spoken language. If you're learning Gurmukhi then Punjabi is automatically something that you'll be picking up (I think...). Along with learning how to read words, I expect you'll be learning what the words mean. Would you be expected to converse fluently in Punjabi as a religious requirement? I'd expect not. Though it would be a good thing. I think as long as you can make sense of the bani it's fine. Punjabi and the language in Guru Granth Sahib do share many many words in common so that's why I expect you'd be learning Punjabi as well. So my advice is to learn Punjabi as well since that'll help your understanding of bani and vice versa. That book on colloquial sayings might not be a bad idea.

If someone is ready to make a commitment to Sikhi, then learning Gurmukhi is essential. The translations availabe today are unfortunately not that great. I have stopped using the translated versions to accompany shabads whenever I'm posting. I usually just post the original and if necessary write a separate explanation. Translated versions have errors in interpretation and also in approach. I will put my own personal bias and frame of reference into the translation I do. That's pretty much inevitable. Translations also do not let you connect on a deeper level with the bani. They can give you a window into what is going on, but to fully immerse yourself, I feel the original is needed. Finally many Gursikhs have said, and I too believe that Bani is not only a message it is also a mantar. That is, the words create a vibration. The translation cannot reproduce this effect. So although it may seem daunting, I would highly reccomend you start to learn Gurmukhi. I know of one Singh who taught himself how to read Gurmukhi in 2 months without any help outside of a book called "Punjabi Reader 1". He used to copy out the alphabet and memorized the characters and he used to also repeat it orally. Given his family were Punjabi but I also know of many examples of westerners learning fairly quickly. If you have the motivation, and begin, I'm also certain Guru Sahib will help the process along. After all, the only reason you're learning this is to connect with him and his words better.

jss, I completely agree with you that it's our actions that make us Sikhs. I also would never try to argue that the title of Sikh should be withheld from someone dressed in shirts/pants. My point with the Punj Pyaaray argument was to say that Sikh bana is pretty clear. I mean, a Nihang Singh is always in that bana, and Punj Pyaaray, when they do seva (regardless of Jatha) essentially dress like Nihangs. That seems to point to the fact that Nihang Bana (as described already) is Sikh bana. At any rate, we both agree on the "test" for the situation and I think Bhain jee, after reading all this, will come to a decision she feels confident about and comfortable with.

jss, you said, "that the PANTH hasn't even figured out what bana is...collectively" You're quite right that there is no collective decision on the issue formally reached. But I think we have a very good idea of what bana is through informal methods. Every Jatha, when it has an amrit sinchaar, the punj pyaaray wear more or less the same type of clothes. The Colours are usually Orange, but can be white and blue (never seen black). They all wear chola, dastaars, kamer kussa, hazooriya, kirpan on outside and no pyjami. I would suggest that this is bana for Sikh men. I would suggest Sikh women have similar bana because Guru Gobind Singh has said all Khalsa are in his form, but I think the men argument is pretty solid. I personally don't see a sari as an appropriate Sikh dress in terms of modesty. I think the same modesty requirements are for men and women and showing one's belly just doesn't seem to fit. Even if someone says they will cover the belly, it doesn't seem like a good dress. It's not very conducive to mobility. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh has written that the Sikh should ideally dress as he was peshed in front of the Panj Pyaaray at the time of the amrit sinchar. I personally agree with this ideal. As "Tera" has already said, I think the ultimate test we all should use is what would Guru Gobind Singh do and what would he think.

Sikhi does have a culture: There is a style of dress, language (Gurmukhi), martial arts, music (traditional kirtan), distinct celebrations, distinct life cycle events. The fact that Punjabi culture has appropriated and twisted some of these aspects of Sikh culture like using Sikh marriages but adding all kinds of inappropriate things. What is the solution? On a small scale I believe there is a need to embrace Sikhi as much as we can. I also feel there is a need for spreading the message but that's only possible when we are living it ourselves.

I think a dichotomy we all struggle with at some point is the Punjabi/Sikh divide. I am of the firm opinion that one cannot follow Sikhism if they choose to live by Punjabi cultural norms. I don't think there is a fine line between the two. It's pretty big. Punjabi culture devalues women, believes in caste, is proud of hard drinking, requires worship of dead ancestors and many other plainly anti-Sikh beliefs. Does religion have an impact on society? Sure it does. If there is someone to do parchar. Christian missionaries are using the story of Christ to show how he died for the sins of humanity and are becoming quite successful in the villages. I have to ask myself, if someone told of the sacrifices of Guru Arjan who showed total tranquility under the most horrifying of circumstances or talked of how Guru Gobind Singh sent his own sons into battle and watched as they fell to countless blows, how the people of Punjab could even think of looking elsewhere. Also, Ishna, you quote the Rehit Maryada about engagement ceremonies and how there is the giving of a kirpan and other things. This is certainly not a dowry. The bride and groom exchange the 5 kakaars. This would be as much of a dowry as Western couples exchanging rings. A dowry is more like demands of cars, appliances, money, etc.

Namastang, Then your beliefs are mubaarak to you. I know in most jathebandis the punj pyaaray make clear at the close of the amrit sinchaar that they are no longer punj pyaaray. But if you wish to stand when you see someone who has done seva, then I suppose it's your choice. But by no means are they still Punj Pyaaray. Actually, standing up to greet someone in Sangat while in hazoori of Guru Sahib is generally prohibited. Exception is made for Punj Pyaaray because they are considered Guru Roop. But standing up for anyone, while Guru Sahib is parkaash seems wrong to me. As for giving jugti, I am of the beleif that only Punj Pyaaray can give naam otherwise why do we even have Punj Pyaray? Why not just get everything from a Sant Baba.

Namastang, Says Gurmat Maryada and frankly, common sense. The Punj Pyaaray are considered Guru Roop and given utmost respect. They are seated specially in Sangat when they come, and when they do enter, everyone stands. They have the power to ask personal questions and order corrective measures. They also have the power to give naam. Are you suggesting that even after an amrit sinchaar they retain all these powers? Do you stand when you see someone who has done seva in the punj pyaaray enter sangat? Cand they teach naam outside the amrit sinchaar mandal? I'm happy to discuss this further if you so wish, but I think anyone can see that once the final ardaas of the amrit sinchaar is concluded, those doing seva are once again just regular Gursikhs.

speaking traditionally, an akhand paath sahib begins at amrit vela after asa di vaar and is concluded in abour 48 hours (exactly 48 isn't a rule), and followed again by asa di vaar kirtan. Otherwise I don't think it violates maryada if for due to circumstances the bhog occurs at some other time.

While the Khalsa stays distinct, I will give them all glory (the word Tej is a bit hard to translate in English, it encompasses more than just glory). When they go the way of the Brahmins, I will not put my trust in them any longer. So when we do acts or ceremonies like the Brahmins or let Brahminvaad into our practices and lose the distinct Khalsa way, we are losing the trust of Dashmesh Pita.

Punj pyaaray are only punj pyaaray until the final ardaas of the amrit sinchaar. After that, they are just regular Gursikhs. If you feel you want to tell a Gursikh you trust who also happened to do seva in the amrit sinchaar where you received amrit, that's fine. I suggest you go to the next amrit sinchaar possible, but that amrit sinchaar where you are confident Gurmat is followed.

Gatra did not come during "ferengi times". If you look at old pictures you'll see people wore gatras for kirpans even before the British. Guru Gobind Singh jee's gatra is still preserved. You can see a picture in the SGPC Sikh Museum Book.

Sat= True like sach. Or like Sat Naam. Sri= exalted. Very special and very high. Akaal= timeless. Kaal means time, putting "a" in front means without. like Joonee means life form but "ajoonee" means the opposite. So Akaal means vahiguru, the immortal (timeless) one. Put it all together it means True is the Exalted Timeless One.

"You could surround an animal in a room with boody walls- it will still not understand that it's about to be killed..mercilessly... or whatever... they do not understand, or have that understanding - so bringing in an animal to a factory wil not cause any harm (I believe) to the animal" What are you talking about??? This doesn't even make any logical sense. On a practical level, an animal in a room covered in blood can figure out what's coming next. Go check out a PETA site to see how animals react when being brought into a meat factory. Or even ask anyone who kills animals or has been a butcher: animals know death is coming by looking at their surroundings. What do you base your statements on? What would possibly make you think that animals can't figure out that a place covered in blood is not somewhere they want to be? Please don't take this as an attack, but a general comment; sometimes I get the feeling you debate for the sake of debating as opposed to getting to some kind of truth or understanding. I could very well be wrong, but looking at many of your posts, I do get that feeling. That's what I meant by "thinking too much". Sometimes we lose the forest for the trees.

Somtimes people think too much. The reason for not eating kuthaa (butchered meat) is mercy. Mercy is the source of Dharam. A merciful person will not kill another animal for taste. There are other arguments as well of course. We don't have any objection to eating yogurt (which contains countless organisms and is in fact formed by those organisms), we don't have any objection to eating mushrooms and we don't have any problem inhaling countless organisms every day. You mentioned some "humane" methods of killing. That ignores the whole process of bringing the animal to the place of butchering. Do you really think that the trauma suffered is any less just because the actual death may (or may not) be relatively painless? Just process of being brought into a factory that smells of blood and death and being lead to a machine covered in blood (no, they don't clean it after every kill) lacks mercy. Death in a meat factory is not clean and sanitary. It boils down to mercy. If you want some kind of scientific formula about what is eadible and what isn't based on cell structure and nervous system information, I'm afraid I can't provide it. It's based on common sense.

Animals beg and cry before being killed. They try to run away. When was the last time your carrot begged for mercy and ran away from you? One requires you to forget mercy while the other doesn't have any lack of mercy. That's why they call people "butchers". It takes a butcher to eat and create meat. A butcher can never have the mercy of Vahiguru.

To be clear, vegetarian restaurants still aren't really acceptable for Gursikhs. I know that many vegetarian restaurants are operated by Radha Swamis and when asked about their food, they can guarantee that it is 100% vegetarian, but they have said that they can't guarantee "suchum" that would be acceptable to amritdharis. I know this because one amritdhari specifically phoned one of the most prominent desi restaurants in Toronto and got this answer.

The answer to your question according to Gurmat and the precedent followed by Punj Pyare of Gurmat-oriented jathebandis is that unless both husband and wife are amritdhari, they cannot have physical relations with each other and the amritdhari spouse cannot have any greater relations with the non-amritdhari spouse than that of siblings.