pedrorizzo

Amazing insights

Is it just me that wants to throw up when I hear that girl speak on the video. The level of coconut-ism is quite nauseating lol

You have put the link for the amrit sanchar in smethwick on here and not the nottingham gurdwara opening. Could you post that link plz

GCSE level English, assuming you studied in the UK, is a high enough level of study to know that it is possible to change a quote provided you entered your addition in brackets to make it clear that you have made a change and to help it fit better into the sentence that you are writing. I havent really got enough time to go through each of your mumbo jumbo points and tear them to shreds. But since you have decided to now leave the debate, there is no point anyway. However, for someone who claims not be a Taksali Singh, your views are very Taksali-like wouldnt you say? The fact is, you and I are on completely different planets with totally differing view points and we are not really getting anywhere. Unless you enjoy debates that go around in circles, its probably better that you dont engage in responding to my posts in the first place and try to pass your great spiritual judgements upon them. However, I suspect that you will probably come out of your bhagti-cave at some point in the next few weeks and will be ready to do it all over again lol.

Thats an interesting point. I dont know much about this. What is the link between the two?

The question is not about its lineage. Its about the parchaar that is coming out of there. Even if the lineage is sound and correct, it doesnt not mean that the parchaar coming from there is legit etc.. The same could be said of Akal Takhat Sahib, there is no doubt about its lineage, but many have differing views as to what it has now has come to represent and propogate.

It must be difficult for yourself as a Taksali Singh, that follows Taksali maryada to listen to views that are different to yours since you accept your own views as the supreme truth. However, this is not uncommon in other small cult-like groups as well. I'm not really here to try and persuade you away from your beliefs, however, delusional they may sound to me. Probably we will go around in circles like we normally do when you and I debate. My take home message, though, would be that the Taksal is not the Panth and its views are not gospel. It is a part of the Panth, like all the other groups and jathebandian that make up the Panth. ' Taksalism' is not mainstream Sikhi as propogated by the Akal Takhat Sahib and it is not mainstream Sikhi in terms of numbers of followers. Actually it is a marginal force. No doubt the Taksal does play an important part in the Panth. After all, we need Babas to do parchaar in the villages in a style that will suit the villagers. We also need paathis and kathavachiks. So yes, the Taksal has a role. It doesnt take someone with a great jeevan or a brahmgiani to work out that preachers, should stick to preaching and everybody else should also stick to what they are good at. Hence, I shall quote your finishing paragraph that, 'those that want to plan can keep on planning and receive the fruits of (their) labor. Those that want to follow the instructions of Satguru can start by doing bhagti.' The above is actually a profound and pivotal statement in this debate. However, my only addition to this would be that the two are not mutually exclusive, and it is possible to do both, if so inclined.

Thanks veerji you explained the lines very well and I understand what you are saying about the hooded cobra etc.. ie that the spirit of Sikhs cannot be broken etc. so we must have faith in the future and the plan of waheguru etc. However, it is still a purely spiritual answer and is not good enough for me in terms of strategy. I understand that you are a Taksali Singh and strong supporter of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and you believe that Akal Purakh instructed him the true plan on how Khalsa Raj should be achieved etc. However, I simply just dont support him in the same way that you do and have the same kind of faith in him that you do. I totally disagree with the parchaar that is now coming out of the Taksaal regarding who Jarnail Singh was and what they have now built him up to be and the stories they have circulated about him. I have friends from the UK that have stayed at the Taksal and frankly I was shocked about what they were being told by some of the sewadars, about the Sant doing miracles etc. When the Gurus themselves rejected miracles and refused to do them when they had the ability, why would Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale? Regarding the Taksal, I am aware of its beliefs and its Maryada. There are parts of it that I agree with and large parts that I disagree with. I think that the Taksal is great for producing kathavachiks and paathis. However, I personally would not look for leadership or strategy from there and nor would I look for great Generals. Now, I apologise if you find my views disrespectful. I know that followers of the Taksal believe that it is the supreme truth, started by Guru Gobind Singh ji and the lineage of Baba Deep Singh etc. However, it is important for Taksali followers to understand that not all Sikhs in the Panth follow Taksal and not all Sikhs follow/agree with Taksali views/maryada. Now, what you say that Sikhs should do bhagti, improve their jeevan and spread sikhi... I am totally in agreement with this. No problem with that whatsoever. However, when you start saying things like we shouldnt plan ahead for Khalsa Raj etc because we dont have the spirituality for it and we shouldnt question the strategies of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale because he received orders from Akal Purakh and it doesnt matter if innocent people die because that is all just part of the greater plan etc, then I think you will start to find some serious divergences and differences with the rest of the Khalsa Panth. So in conclusion, I'll summarise my points. My personal view is that the Taksal is not the place to look for panthic leadership as its main focus is on developing paathis and kathavachiks. Just because Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale came from there and led the panth, does not mean anybody else is going to come out of there who will appeal to the broad cross section in the Panth, in this day and age. A more sound strategy is required for the development of Khalsa Raj which translates into achievable and tangible aims and objectives rather than spiritual theories that only appeal to select jathebandis. I agree with you that the Khalsa is a 'kharapa Sap' whose spirit cannot be broken and is always prepared to spring back into action, just when its enemies think that it has beaten. I also agree that greater Sikhi parchaar is required and that this is the basis for development of Khalsa Raj because, simply put, we need more Sikhs, and we need more people who sympathise with Sikh causes. In this respect, a parcharik organisation such as the Taksal can play an important role in the process.

Very nice kaveeshri. However, does not explain how to obtain khalsa raj. Please explain how you think victory is defined in Gurmat and explain how that can be used as a strategy for Sikhs to obtain their own homeland, since that is how success is defined in the context that we are talking about veer ji.

This veer above is clearly a Gursikh and tries to follow Sikhi to a T. However, as a Gursikh, he will also know that Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj did not only teach about principles... in this case the principle being that oppression should be fought against even if great sacrifices must be made, including life, in order to achieve this. He will also know that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj taught about practicality as well. When asked to show miracles in the Mughal court, Guru ji, drew his sword and said that the greatest miracle is the sword (kirpan) itself, because this is the symbol of direct action, by which, ones destiny can be controlled and changed... Kings can be overthrown and Governments can be changed. Guru ji showed practicality, in that will/intention alone does not suffice, and that the necessary tools or mechanisms are required to bring about change. The above veer, who doesnt like to read textbooks, but I am sure is aware of the life Guru Gobind Singh ji, will be aware of the infinite so called 'worldly qualities' of Guru ji. He was a great General, musician, poet, diplomat, politican, saint, historian etc etc. Perhaps veer ji could spare a few moments to think about the military genius of Guru ji and what steps he took to ensure victory for the Khalsa in countless battles. Even when Sikhs had to vacate Anandpur Sahib, how the application of sound strategy ensured that Sikhs were not wiped out. If veer ji could spare a few moments from his bhagti and read, 'Leadership in its finest mould, Guru Gobind Singh - R.N. Batra', alot of detail has gone into showing Guru ji's leadership from a military perspective and how the battles were actually won. We agree on one point... the Sikhi principle of liberating oneself and others from the shackles of tyranny. How we go about this process, however, is what this debate is all about. Now you'll have to forgive me if I sound like a bit of a coward and a bit too 'worldly' for you but if you offered me two different strategies by which to campaign for Khalsa raj - The first one lacked planning, coordination, resulted in huge loss of life, both of our fighters and also innocent people, resulted in huge economic destruction and never actually succeeded in bringing about Khalsa Raj in the first place (which is basically what happened from 1984-1995) or you offered me a second strategy which took alot longer, was better planned and coordinated with considerably lesser loss of life and resulted increased economic growth and actually suceeded in obtaining Khalsa raj, I would try and choose the second option. Are you telling me that if I was a better Gursikh, did more bhagti and listen to Bhindranwala's speeches that I would be more inclined to follow the first option?

well said

well I would say that where there are strongly entrenched and opposing views, with both sides thinking that their view is correct, and holds monopoly in the divine court, a good leader would have to do exactly that

Yes, but this is just drag back type of comments. 'naa mu naa sir type gallan'. Another one is that Singhs are incapable of ruling. Thats another one you hear around Gurdwara commitees. The fact is all communities have differences of thought, faith and political affiliation. Do you think that the white English race is all totally united on every issue? Of course not. They are much more divided than Sikhs are. The difference is that other communities can ride these differences because there are appropriate structures in place to do so.... ie government and election systems for example. Thats why governments based on the charisma and leadership of one individual are doomed to fail as soon as that one individual is gone. There will always be differences and disunity... the question is, have appropriate structures, institutions and infrastructures been set up in order to ride these differences and still allow basic functions to be carried out.

Did they die in vain? Depends on which way you look at it. If you mean did their sacrifice result in Khalistan, well then clearly not. What about the innocent people who died that didnt care about Khalistan or any other cause and just went about their daily lives? Did they die in vain? Yes they did since I'm sure that they would have prefered to have lived, rather than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In answer to your question about re-grouping. Yes I want a long time before anyone thinks about starting this kind of morcha again. Where is the evidence that kharkoos have been regrouping? My understanding is that the Kharku groups are now pretty much disbanded. Punjab is not ready for armed struggle. The carnage this time will be tenfold worse than last time and Punjab will be taken back into the dark ages. Besides, the term, 're-grouping' doesnt only refer to the re-building building of military muscle, though that is part of it. It also refers to Panthic infrastructures being strong. Schools, Colleges, Universities, Media, Gurdwareh, representative organisations and most importantly the collection of large amounts of revenue. The ideological groundwork in terms of religious and political parchaar must also take place at a grass roots level and that will take decades to achieve. All this 'who dares wins nonsense' and other war mongering strategies are not going to get us anywhere. Peace is the top priority right now. We need to increase the number of Sikhs, increase the parchaar of Sikhi and make Sikh institutions strong. That can only happen in times of peace. Then, perhaps in about 50-100 years we can look at the next step on the ladder. Although personally, I think it will take alot longer.

I totally disagree with this. In this day and age, the Akal Takhat Jathedar must be diplomatic, mature and peaceful. A Jathedar that actively campaigned for Khalistan would be a disaster for the Kaum. The Sikhs paid a heavy price and Punjab suffered tremendously during the last Khalistan morcha. At present, times are relatively peaceful. Now is the time to re-group and grow stronger. For that we primarily need peace and stability. You allege that the jathedar is a puppet (probably of Badal) but it is very easy to make these sort of claims. After all, many claimed that Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was just a puppet of the congress. Me personally, I dont really care, even if he is a puppet... if he makes mature, rational and peace promoting decisions than I will support them. If he tries rabble rousing and stirring up peoples passions then he shouldnt be in that position. Sikhs are a very volatile and explosive community at the best of times and need calming down most of the time more than anything else. Also, the decisions need to reflect the cross-section of beliefs and views in the Panth and not just the views of one group or jathebandi. If any maryada should be promoted more, then it should be the Akal Takhat Maryada itself. By making the claim that the Akal Takhat is under seige and that the Jathedar is a puppet, it sounds more like you or your group dont support the jathedar and the Akal Takhat because he doesnt reflect your jathebandi, therefore you want change. Nihangs always harp on about how the true Jathedar must come from the Buddha Dal, Taksalis want a Jathedar with Taksali views and implements a Taksali maryada etc... it is impossible to keep everybody happy. What is required is diplomacy and fairness so that all views are listened to and taken on board. However, the best leadership quality that a present Jathedar can offer in this day and age is the enforcement of peace. Without peace, panthic development cannot take place. If Panthic development never takes place, then there will NEVER be a Sikh homeland.

Inaccurate analysis regarding the Sikh Council. The are many areas that the Sikh Council addresses that the Federation doesnt take a lead role in and others where the Federation takes the leading role and the Sikh Council takes a back seat. Campaigning for an independent Sikh homeland and tackling human rights abuses are the niche and forte of the Federation whereas Sikh Council is a collective of jathebandian and communities representing the broad cross section of the Sikh community so that collective campaigning and collective decision making can take place regarding issues that affect all Sikhs, regardless of political affiliation or jathebandi, ie wearing of kirpans in schools. Just because the Sikh federation is a highly active and vocal organisation that organises its own campaigns does not mean that the Sikh council is puppet of the Federation by any stretch. This is a very inaccurate and somewhat mischievous statement to make. If you need clarification for this then go and ask the head representatives of AKJ, Ramgharia community, Bhatra community and Ravidassia community to see if they are fully involved and represented in the Sikh Council or not. Do you think that these same groups would whole-heartedly support an openly Khalistani organisation such as the Federation? I think not. The Sikh Council and Federation work together and alongside each other, and on pivotal issues, the Federation forms one of the associated member jathebandia that makes up the Sikh Council, ie part of the UK Sikh panth. I hope that is clear.

Because the Khalistan brand is associated with things that they perceive as negative. For example some associate it with terrorism and extremism. Others view it as being associated with uneducated, illiterate pindus. They often see kesadhari 'religious looking' Sikhs ranting, raving and shouting at demonstrations and think to themselves that its not really them and dont want anything to do with it. Not enough educated, professional looking individuals come forward and articulate pro Khalistan views in a logical and coherent manner. Some people associate it with hardline Sikh views which they think will be enforced upon them if Khalistan is created. The people who argue against Khalistan argue that Khalistanis dont really have any goal or achievable method of obtaining Khalistan, ie even the boundaries of Khalistan are confused. Some Khalistanis say that it should incorporate territories taken from Punjab at Partition both in 1947 and 1966 etc. People are aware that the present state of Punjab only carries 55% population of Sikhs, most of whom are not practicing. So how would the Hindus and non-practicing Sikhs fare in the new Khalistan? What would be the governance structure, administration, election system etc? Many Khalistanis have differing views about this and many of the details are missed out or poorly articulated. Another point that non-Khalistanis make is about the economic viability of Khalistan. Punjab is a primarily an agricultural state and highly dependent on the rest of India for trade. Punjab has slipped down the ladder in terms of economic development after the turbulence of the 80s and most companies dont want to invest there as they see it as a troubled and unstable region. Economic models which show how Punjab could survive as an independent nation do not exist and have not been convincingly argued for in a persuasive manner. Many people will have to be convinced that it is economically viable and that the people of Punjab will benefit in some way, rather than lose out. Pro-Khalistan supporters need to do a better job of explaining why it is better for Punjab to be independent, as opposed to reaping the benefits of staying with India. They need to do more than just talk about human rights abuses, 84 riots, Harimandir Sahib attack and genocide of Sikhs in India. Although these are all good points, these alone are not a sound enough argument when taking about independence and nationhood. People need more incentive that this campaign will benefit them. Moderate Sikhs tend to blame Khalistani Sikhs for causing the human rights abuses, 84 riots and genocide of Sikhs to happen in the first place by taking on the government so they areunlikely to trust and support the very same guys who they think caused all the conflict. Finally, some people simply dont think that the sacrifice and bloodshed is worth supporting Khalistan, especially if it is unlikely to be achieved and will only result in suffering, death and more economic upheaval. So there you have it. Some of the reasons why 'moderate' Sikhs dont support Khalistan. BTW these are not necessarily my views, I am simply trying to answer the question that has been posed so please dont bite my head off! I actually believe that Sikhs are a nation and work towards self-determination!

Lol. This will take 'eve-teasing' to whole new level!

Maybe he was referring to his technical expertise rather than his status. Certain kinds of sewa require technical knowledge in or at least an academic background of some sort

well written article

Did he say what I think he said?

Street fights in India are usually asymmetric ie they are one sided affairs. Its rarely a situation where you have two guys fighting each other and both trying to win. This kind of subservient behaviour is ingrained from childhood, whereby if someone is giving you slaps as a kid, such as your parents, you automatically just bow down to their dominance, give up and take the beating and, in India, this just continues into adulthood. It is asymmetric and one sided. The adults beat the kids. The men beat the women. The powerful beat the weak. Teachers beat the kids. The senior teachers beat the junior teachers. The rich beat the poor and usually, the police beat the public. Its just one big giant food chain. This is why, when you see Singhs on camera getting beaten up, it is very rare for them to fight back. They usually just take the beating or run off or put both hands together and ask for forgiveness/mercy... Its not just Singhs that do this, everyone in India does... including the police lol. As shown in this video, this policeman, who has probably beaten up hundreds of people whilst working and is unlikely to be a stranger to violence, showed the same timid pattern of behaviour and couldnt handle it when someone actually stood up to him and started hitting back. He is used to be being the aggressor and didnt know what to do when the roles were reversed. Iv rambled on a bit... but the bottom line is, if you can shift the predator/prey dynamic and become the aggressor, you can win. The cops in India will back down if you put them on the back foot.

Totally agree with you regarding Khalistan. Unfortunately, in most circles, Khalistan has become a dirty word and is associated with extremism and terrorism. Whilst the concept of greater autonomy and freedom of the Sikh people is a good one, the Khalistan tag actually does more harm to Panthic morchas nowadays than it does good.. ie as soon as you start mentioning the word, most people, especially Indians will just completely switch off. Not only that, many Sikhs themselves dont want anything to do with it, so it actually becomes a hindrance to Panthic Unity in many ways. Unfortunately, some Sikhs refuse to recognise this and try to attempt to hijack non-Khalistan related panthic morchas with Khalistan slogans etc. which actually pushes alot of people away rather than draws them in. I think that for the short-term Khalistan campaigning should take a back seat for a while and perhaps re-visited at a later date, or at the very least, it should be replaced with a different name for the same thing, but one which doesn't have the loaded connotations that Khalistan does.

Lol last time they tried, their crack paratroopers were captured and paraded around by pindus armed with lathis and gandasas. Bunch of jokers... lol come through a different state next time!

Excellent article. Well written and good thoughts. My only difference would be that I dont agree that the hot headed or 'fighter Sikhs' should turn their attention to taking over the Akal Takhat Sahib and to fight with the Panjab Police. To an extent that happened in the 80s anyway when the hardline jathebandia elected jathedars with hardline views and declared Khalistan at Akal Takhat Sahib in 1986, as well as forming the Panthic Commitee to implement their plans which included fighting with the Panjab Police. I would argue that we have been there in the past and it hasnt done us any good. Actually, the present strategy used by the Sant Samaj and Taksal to influence Panthic affairs by joining hands with Badal and infiltrating the SGPC and influencing Akal Takhat Sahib from the inside is probably a far more effective approach for them. Interestingly though, despite this more covert and intelligent strategy, many UK Sikh youth and jathebandia seem to regard this as evidence for their treachery. There are plenty of other activities for the hot headed fighter Singhs to get involved in. I believe that a more organised security network would be highly beneficial to the Sikh Community. A disciplined task force with ex-military staff designed to look after the security of Gurdwaras, Sikh institutes, bodyguarding for Sikh leaders and politicians, and finally, providing security to the community during times of civil unrest, since we cant rely on the Police. If we could set up a disciplined security network like that, we wouldnt need Kharkus. The focus would be on community safety to counter the threat of Right wing Hindu paramilitary groups such as RSS and Shiv Sena and paramilitary groups belong to certain Deras, who incidentally, are very well organised and trained compared to the Sikhs. Just my thoughts.