pedrorizzo

Iv noticed a trend in protests over recent years both in India and in the UK where Singhs have started carrying shastars to demonstrations and protests. Im not sure how I feel about this. On one hand it is inspiring that Sikhs appear to have woken up and are demonstrating their anger. I suppose it can also be a useful form of intimidation and deterrent to people who may want to pick fights with Sikhs. However, doesnt this visual display of aggression start to lose its impact and value after a while? ie dont people start to catch on that this all just for show and not really that dangerous after all? This image is cemented by footage of several instances where armed Sikhs shouting jaikaras are being chased off and/or beaten off by police. I think we have to be careful not to overexpose our shastars and start pulling them out all the time, especially by people who 1. Dont have the guts to use them and 2. Dont know how to use them. I think that maybe some self regulation is required, particularly in our own sphere of influence here in the UK. I was having this discussion with some Singhs who insisted on carrying 3 ft Kirpans and spears doing the UK riots last Summer. Since I knew some of these guys, I also knew that they were basically just posing for the cameras and if it really did kick off, they would most likely trip over and stab themselves by mistake or something daft like that. How embarrassing would that be? People wouldnt take us too seriously after that. The image of shastar-dhari Sikhs is a powerful one and we can use it to our advantage to get our way on some pivotal issues. It has a tremendous psychological value and deterrent towards our enemies. However, if we are not careful and we dont regulate its usage. It will start to lose its value and wont work any more.

lol. Jokes aside... despite their cosmetic inadequacies the Punjab cops are pretty tough mofos. If faced with aggression, they normally just lob a few tear gas shells and when the mob disperses they give chase and pick up any stragglers. If you are unlucky or silly enough to get caught on your own, you can expect a pretty merciless 5 on beating one beating with lathis and a trip to hospital. If Sikhs organise themselves like the UK student protestors or GU summit and put the cops on the back foot they will just escalate and up the ante.. ie shoot to kill. I suppose Sikhs could arm themselves with slingshots and makeshift shields and organise themselves a bit better. To be honest I think that big aggressive crowds are a big no no. Also taking on the police is serious business and shouldnt really be the focus of whats happening on the streets. As someone said earlier, I would rather that a few small organised groups were ambushing the Shiv Sainiks here and there and giving them a few targeted beatings. Preferably they should film it and put in on youtube so at least the violence looks balanced and Sikhs dont end up getting humiliated so much.

I can see why that seems kind of confusing.... As I explained before, I am against violence only because it doesnt get us anywhere most of the time. Part of the reason is that we 'do violence badly.' Aggression on the streets, posturing, shouting and waving shastars around does more harm than good. Small covert and organised groups which are highly disciplined have their place. They are more effective and can do more damage. My point is that if we dont get our act together soon, we will start to look like an overly aggressive but harmless community. I am against violence but if Hindus have the courage to come out on a Punjab bandh, insult and attack Sikhs, beat them up and burn kesri dastaars in the street without fear of consequence, then we have a problem. It means that they dont respect us and they dont fear us. On Sarabha Punjab's videos of the clashes in Patiala and Gurdaspur, it is clear to me that the Hindus are alot more organised and clever. In Patiala, it was evident that they gained the attention of the Sikh marchers by shouting slogans, then they lured the Sikhs into narrow alley ways from where they were throwing bricks down from the roofs and the Sikhs couldnt do anything. The Sikhs went ballistic and took their frustration out on the police, injuring the SSP and then the police did their usual lathi charge and bashed people up. There are videos in Gurdaspur and Phagwara of Sikh youth getting picked up and beaten up by Arya Samaj and Hindu mobs that I saw on Sikh channel yesterday. When the Sikhs react aggressively, the police come down hard. I have not seen any footage of Hindus getting beaten up, only Sikhs. Notice how the Hindus play it sly. Whenever the camera shows the Hindu mobs, they are able to maintain a much calmer and lower profile than the Sikh mobs and you dont seem them carrying lots of weapons, so when the Sikhs go for them, the police is forced to protect them. Very clever.

Anyone who has read alot of my posts will know that I discourage Sikhs from indulging in violence. This is not because I'm a pacifist but because I dont always think that our community is really prepared for the nature of violence and the negative consequences that it brings. Every disturbance in Punjab over the last few years, whether the sacha sauda kand, ludhiana kand, mumbai kand or the present situation that we find ourselves in, the same pattern appears to be repeating itself. Some mischievous elements provoke the Sikhs. We react with blind rage and without any kind of organisation, ranting and raving with lathis and naked kirpans but usually it is still our boys who end up getting hurt or killed rather than the opposition. Then we take our frustration out on the police who respond in a heavy handed manner, after which our guys end up running away but not before quite a few have beaten up and even killed. Right now, a brother is dead and many more are in hospital. What has been gained? What has been learnt? Today and yesterday were prime opportunities for us to teach the shiv sainiks and RSS guys a lesson in Punjab when they came out with the sheer audacity to raise anti-sikh slogans and burn a kesri dastaar in the street. Instead, all that has happened is that the Hindus will get braver because they have seen that they can get away provoking and attacking Sikhs when Sikhs are out in full force in the streets without any kind of serious or dangerous consequences. I dont agree with violence in Punjab because of the loss of life, the impact on the economy and the lack of development for the Sikh community if Punjab is not kept a peaceful and stable region. However, I think its important that we still have muscle and can demonstrate it when required. Unless someone can show me different, it just seems that we are losing our teeth and when it really comes down to it, and when we have prime opportunity we just cant deliver the goods and give our opponents a reason to be scared. I saw the same thing happen with Sant Daduwal's supporters when they used to fight the Sacha Sauda guys. They just used to throw stones at each other for three hours, a little bit of posturing with their sticks and the odd slap here and there, with both sides giving it and taking it. This is not really the way you assert your dominance and scare the hell out of your opposition. There is a difference between being aggressive and actually being dangerous. At the moment Singhs are just looking like all bark and no bite. Am I the only one that thinks this? Khalistan Gunman and others, what do you think should happen to improve the situation?

Was anybody killed during the fights during the SP days?

excellent vintage video. blast from the past. Should be saved and archived

Fantastic idea. Should be promoted nationwide. Perhaps a nationwide body such as the Sikh Council could spearhead a project such as this?

Yes only five I am totally beside myself with rage, totally burning in ego and lust. Iv just smashed up the house and been out on a killing spree. Whilst you, who have already achieved jeevan mukhti are sitting there in celestial peace with a mala in your hand. Dude you really need to get over yourself. You make me laugh!

You cant read and are resorting to straight up lies like your friend singher. Please highlight in my post where I have used sikhi to manipulate peoples emotions in order to create conflict? I am outright condemning it yet somehow in your eyes I am the one doing it? Do yourself a favour and get some air. You sit here and tell people to do bhagti... talk about stating the obvious. But fair enough I cant knock that or disagree with that. However, you should keep on topic and focus on the subject at hand... unless of course you are trying to argue that doing lots of bhagti makes you want to start wars with people you disagree with and makes you oblivious to the consequences of your actions including damage to innocent civilians? If doing bhagti makes you want to do that then it is quite a worrying thing and maybe all Sikhs should stop doing bhagti and start smoking weed instead?! It would sound like a more peaceful solution to the worlds problems than doing bhagti, certainly according to the model that you have described!

You are actually thick. I did not call Guru ji selfish. I called the extremist nutjobs such as yourself who act without thinking about the welfare of others as selfish. You are unable to counter to my arguments so you have resorted to straight up lying. So what kind of a Gursikh does that make you? Do yourself a favour and die for some great cause. Not only will you give your self a first class stamped ticket to sachkhand (lol) you will also making savings on the worlds already depleting oxygen supply. Maybe when you die, then some third rate bhangra singer will make track about you with a heavy bass line and put it on the next shaheedi immortality album.

Only five is a religious extremist with manipulative intentions. He has no real idea what sikhi preaches. He is a pakhandi, that carries the robe and garb of a spiritual person and speaks the saintly language and feigns enlightenment. He is completely deluded and blindly follows what is told to him by a self-certified 'mahapursh' and the views circulated amongst is small cult like group. He uses the common tactic of the fundamentalist, anyone that disagrees with his views is anti-Sikh or not a Sikh at all because of course only his views are correct. He is the kind of person that will try to use Sikhi to manipulate your emotions and try to convince you that Sikhi is in grave danger in order to gain popularity and to instigate conflict so that he can take advantage of it and pursue his own agenda. He has no concept of consequences and as far as he is concerned, his holy crusade has been ordained by God and it is his religious duty so it doesnt matter if innocent people die or suffer because of his actions. To him, it is all for a greater cause... his cause. He does not believe in negotiating or debating because he considers that to be a compromise in his religious beliefs and compromise is something that extremists never do. It doesnt matter how much you try and reason with them, they are totally deluded and preoccupied with the metaphysical and have no grasp of reality. It is people like them who try to turn Sikhi into a religion of the dark ages. They hinder progress and they are the real reason that the number of Sikhs is decreasing and why Sikhs dont have a homeland. Maybe if they woke up a little bit, then our community could make progress.

I suppose if your gonna get into a scrap you need lines like this to motivate yourself and convince yourself that you are in the right. Yes... fighting oppression MAY not be selfish, but lets face it you wouldnt do it unless you wanted to or you were getting something out of it. In the same way that people who do lots of sewa do it because they want to and are getting something out of it. Khalistani gun-man said in a post on another thread that by attaining shaheedi he thinks that he is gaining himself a place in Sach khand so he has a clear motivation wouldnt u say? So I put it to you that most of these kids that get into this game basically want a bit of drama to spice up their lives and get into a scrap whilst using Sikhi as an excuse. Iv seen it plenty of times. If there were no wars, no conflict and drama, they wouldnt know what to do with themselves. You can give yourself whatever justification you want and label it however you want, however if other people are suffering because of your actions, then that is selfish.

Singh, do you realise what you have just said? This is exactly my point, you are willing to sacrifice me and other innocent people so that you can fulfil yourself by going on a crusade. That is extreme selfishness. Its no wonder that you get a cold reception from community elders, gurdwareh and 'moderate' Sikhs. The fact that you dont mind sacrificing yourself doesnt really concern me. However, the fact that you dont care what happens to anyone else and are willing to achieve your objectives at any cost is very worrying. This is exactly the reason why people that think the way that you do will always be a small, marginalised force in our community.

Pappu is a word created by violent nutjobs to describe the rest of the world that wants to live peacefully and avoid bloody streetfights every other day. The real word they should be using to describe these law abiding, working citizens is 'normal people'. As far as violent, militant action is concerned.. it has its time and place no doubt. My response to you in my earlier post was not to state whether or not they should be praised, merely to state the fact that they wont be. Most 'normal people' or pappus as you have described them dont want to get involved in violence just because some testosterone hyped youth think that they should. Whether the SP boys were right or wrong to do what they did, there are probably valid arguments on either side of the coin. However, my original point still stands... this path is a lonely path and one that you have to think long and hard before you embark on it. Dont do it with the misguided belief that everyone will want to shake your hand, make statues in your honour or write songs about you. They wont. There are very few things in life that would cause me to walk that path. Some peoples threshold is much less than mine. However, there are lots of youth that have walked the path and then regretted it afterwards... dont be that guy!

I wouldnt have a problem with what you are saying if this was only about the individual. However, unfortunately, the actions of an individual can spiral out of control, and take the lives of many innocent people who are not even involved. Fair enough if a person wants to act and then accept the consequences. However, if an individual acts and there are unwelcome repercussions on other innocent people then that is just plain selfish and not in keeping with Sikhi. The vast majority of Sikhs want peace. It is a common tactic of extremists in all communities to cause trouble, instigate problems, or even overreact to problems and create civil unrest with a view to 'radicalising the moderates' so that their agenda of revolution can take place. You may think that you are being a good Sikh and acting in the interests of Sikhi but cause much more harm than good and the rest of the community must suffer the consequences of your holy crusade and pick up the pieces. Now, you'll have to excuse me for sounding like a coward and not like a brave war-mongering kharkoo ready to blow himself up for Sikhi, but as it happens I value my life and my family and I would hate to take any action that would result in damage or loss of life to innocent people. Someone who acts without any regard to the consequences is an <banned word filter activated> and someone acts in a way that negatively affects innocent people is extremely selfish and not a very good Sikh, in my humble opinion.

If you are going to walk down this path. Noone is going to congratulate you, noone is going to give you a pat on the back, the community will not support you or your family and very few people will remember you when you are gone. This is a hard fact that exists both in India and in the Uk. Anyone who wants to walk this path needs to think long and hard before they walk on it. It is not glamourous and it is not pleasant. Think about it hard....

Only five not to knock you down but you dont live in the real world. Thankyou for your saintly advice and preaching but it is really not necessary. My opinions are not governed by fear, they are governed by what I perceive to be sound strategy and what I think works in the real world. If doing bhagti makes me as deluded as you are then I cant really see the benefit. However, I know that bhagti does not make anyone deluded, hence why I doubt how much bhagti you have done yourself. Concentrate on your own jeevan and leave other people to have their own views.

Lol. We definitely need people like yourselves to fight the wars. We also need people who think like me to stop things spiralling out of control!

Good question. I interpret this to be a question about strategy. My view on this is that you have to develop a strategy that works under the circumstances. The reason that I am against militancy is because I believe that it simply doesnt work for Sikhs as a methodology in modern times, but not because of any kind of moral dilemma. If there is a chance that militancy will work, then there is a case for it. However, unless India is de-stabilised, there is foreign aid, media support, great support amongst the populace, a tremendous amount of fund-raising and Punjab suddenly sprouts vast areas of jungles and mountains, then militancy is doomed to an A-Class fail. The difference between a religious extremist and a strategist/realist is that the religious extremist will not adapt to the circumstances and instead try to force a certain sequence of events from his own myopic lens (his own religious beliefs or the beliefs of his group) rather than look at the broader picture. An example of this would be a Sikh who believes that Sikhi gives him the right to take up arms as a last resort and then proceeds to take violent action when he believes that this point has been reached, regardless of whether or not it is a sensible thing to do and when the rest of the world can clearly see that there are still other options available, and still not achieving his goal in the process; a lose-lose situation. Things to consider are legality, public and world opinion, the knock on effect to innocent Sikhs going about their daily business, the reputation of Sikhs in the media, and negative effects on the economy.... Most people dont realise how badly Punjab's economy has suffered because of the kharku movement. People still harp on about Punjab being India's number one state but forget that it is industrially undeveloped because of its reputation as a troubled region and the resultant high levels of unemployment. Sikhs should be able to reserve the right to go militant and certainly have the capability to do so if circumstances both necessitate and favour such action, even if it is just for the purposes of self-preservation. However, in the modern climate, it is always better to portray an image of civility, integration and peaceful harmony.

What more can you expect from a community of maya driven migrants? Money, work, money, work, money work. It is the only language they understand. Completely robot like if you ask me, hence the total disregard for human emotions!

BJJ is not judo. It is ju-jitsu. Judo actually came from jujitsu. Kano who invented it wanted to make jujitsu into a competitive sport instead of the killing art that it was so he took out all the strikes and many of the submissions and kept the throws and pins and called it judo. Brazilian jujitsu is a form of old style jujitsu that early japanese settlers took to Brazil in the early 1900s. It had a focus on groundfighting and followed a different path of evolution as it was in Brazil. Judo, Jujitsu and Brazilian jujitsu come from the same family or umberella but are also distinctly different.

Haha good point. The other one that makes me laugh is the expression they have in India for sexual harrassment: They call it 'Eve-teasing' lol and it is an actual term that is used in judiciary. Bunch of jokers!

Everybody has got an opinion on him. You should read up on history and understand both sides and then make your own mind up as to what he was/wasnt

Good points

ur welcome!