pedrorizzo

Desi bandhay chup karkeh bejoh. Adeh taan baar niklan nu fir deh aa, tay doojeh feem doday peekay drakhtan thaley lameh pay aa. Jay kiseh nai kuch karna, fir baar rehan valay karan geh, teray khiaal ch pesai tay funding kithoh aungeh? Tuhadeh babeh/leader emi taan ni England aake choliyan par ke vaapas jaandeh. Asi dekhliya desi bandeya nu, onadi kini himat ya. Pehla nangia talwara leh ke burha rola paundeh aa, murkeh jadon maari ji sek lagdi fir doojeh paaseh vaal khilaar ke paj deya!

Yes to the above... but to be fair, with the kind of wealth that people have generated from UK jobs and UK properties, if people went back to Punjab they would live like Kings in a country where only the dollar is whorshiped and power is respected. They would also be a strong position if they so wished to give back something to their own village, help promote Sikhi, education or sports.... Its not as if this hasnt been done before?

I agree about cultural differences, and the Akal Takhat Sahib does need to take that into account before making decisions. However, the Akal Takhat Sahib was set up by the Gurus themselves, so if we call ourselves Sikhs, then we need to respect the sanctity and authority of the Takhat, whichever country we are in. We need to have some sort of head that we look to for desicion making after all dont we? Too many people in our community are content on doing their own thing, sticking with their own jatha or maryada. We need to try and minimise this and try and stick to one thing.

The images are disturbing but not surprising. Unfortunately, if you turn up to protest against a politician and start raising slogans, you can expect to be roughed up, man-handled and ejected from the premises in a humiliating and degrading manner. I wouldnt expect anything different in India

Not having a go at you but actually to say that this is about in-fighting between commitee and ex-commitee members is nonsense. Everybody in the area knows that members of the current committee are also the same people who were involved in serving alchohol on Gurdwara premises a few years back. They are the very people who are now trying to stop the very popular learn and go sessions for young people, organised by young people, for young people. They actually want to charge young people for holding these sessions whereas other Gurdwaras would bend over backwards to allow this kind of parchar to take place. These congressis need to take note that Sri Akal Takhat Sahib has also declared the 1984-1995 period as a Genocide of the Sikhs

I have to say Bhai Jagtar Singh has got good reflexes and lauched a well timed pre-emptive strike. Its a good job the police intervened when they did, otherwise bhai Sahib would probably have been charged with his murder as well! lol

Its funny how they make it out like Jagtar Singh was attacked. From the video, all I could see was jagtar singh slapping the Hindu guy followed by the police roughing him up as well lol. What sensationalised news reporting lol. The headline should read: Cowardly Hindu extremists foiled in a pathetic attempt to attack Jagtar Singh Hawara, only to be slapped up and arrested by the police!

try wearing a patka?

This is a highly sensationalised thread. Many of the people you have mentioned have different opinions and different interpretations of Sikhi to the ones that you do. Instead of engaging in debate you have simply just created a witch hunt for people who dont agree with your own views. This is shameful. I find this thread quite offensive to be honest.

Yeh its definitely a possiblity. However, you have to bare in mind that Muslims in particular are very proud of Pakistan and wont let it go easily. The key would be to find ways to split them away from the rest of the Pakistanis. This might be difficult in the present day but you never know what might happen in the future. After all, Pakistan is a fragile state at the moment. There are also regional rivalries.. eg the punjabis dont like the pathans, pathans dont like punjabis, kashmiris dont get on with the Scindis etc, so these rivalries could all be open to exploitation. Within Punjab at the moment, the biggest obstacle is posed by the Punjabi Hindus. They have a natural affiliation towards Hindustan and wont let that go easily. They showed their loyalties during the Punjabi suba struggle when large populations of them declared their language as Hindi over Punjabi, resulting in the formation of Haryana and HP. Despite the above, as you have mentioned, a multi-religious Punjab is a good, viable and sensible option and more realistic than the formation of a separate Sikh state.

Extremely interesting article. I am surprised that Dera sacha sauda leader Ram rahim has not been mentioned on the list. On the flipside, what security arrangements do Sikh religious leaders such as the Akal Takhat Jathedar, Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale and Baljeet Singh Daduwal have? Also what security arrangments does Simranjit Singh Mann have? Whilst I think it highly unlikely that they will have Government style Z security, it is important that our own guys are well protected as well.

The fact that 90% of Sikhs dont even want or agree with khalistan at this moment in time is the biggest obstacle. To accomplish Khalistan it will take at least a hundred years and the Sikh community will have to start virtually from scratch. We can expect to have to work for it ourselves as nonone will stick their neck out and hand it to us. Sikhs will firstly have to stop publically declaring that they want Khalistan, as it will be too obvious and the anti-Khalistan forces will continue to undermine it as they have been doing for the past 30 years. Sikhs will need to become more powerful, in every sense. Firstly, parchaar, in order to increase the number of practicing Sikhs worldwide and within the state to build up the numerical support and mass behind it. Secondly, the formation of more Sikh institutions that are cash rich. Institutions include, schools, hospitals, law firms etc.. all of which will make up the task force for implementing a panthic agenda. Sikhs will have to form some kind of unified umberella body that encourages cooperation between all jathebandian and organisations on issues of common interest for the panth. Divisions and different points of view within the community are fine, however, the panth must be united against external threats and on issues that affect the whole panth, rather than individuals or certain bodies. Only alot of political campaigning worldwide, and especially in the cities and villages of Punjab, will serve to awaken interest amongst the population. Khalistan can only happen if there is strong support for it amongst the Sikhs in Punjab, and that can only happen if they can see the benefit of it and how it may improve their day to day life and experience. I would go a step further and suggest that Khalistan must appeal to the non-Sikhs in Punjab as well, because without their support, efforts will be sabotaged. They must feel involved in the process and feel that they are benefiting and gaining from it. Perhaps the word 'Khalistan' now also needs to be changed. Unfortunately, the brand name Khalistan is now purely associated with extremism, religious bigotry and terrorism far more than it is associated with freedom, liberation, tolerance and democracy. Hence it is an old-fashioned word which has had is day, and now a new name must be found. Perhaps one which has less religious connotations, and is below the radar, so to speak. I believe that Khalistan can only become a reality if a political party representing Sikhs campaigning for self-rule pushes hard for it. I do not believe that Sikhs should entrust a Sant or religious leader with this responsibility. Certainly a militant leader, would be disastrous for the Sikhs in this day and age. Sikhs are not strong enough to fight and capture Punjab through military means, and I cannot imagine this ever being the case. Any kind of violent conflict, guerilla war etc would result in the entire community getting hammered and setting us back another 50 years. We must not fall into that trap again, despite the provocation that we face, as it will not bode well for us. Sikhs must also get better at persuading other nations, including India, why Khalistan would be a good idea and would benefit them. For example as a buffer state against Pakistan/Afghanistan, or something similar to this. The wider global community needs to feel safer and agreeable to the creation of a new state, in that it will bring more stablility to the region/curb terrorism/or even provide an opportunity for foreign business interests to take root in there etc. Finally, the creation of Sikh raj, might happen purely through opportunism. The day might come, when India, Pakistan, China, and other great world superpowers crumble away just like the great Mughal Raj and Soviet Union crumbled away. In that event, Sikhs may be able to take advantage of their weakened state, just like we did in the 17th Century. However, that involves preparing in the above mentioned ways so that we are ready as a community to make the most of that opportunity when it arrives, rather than being slow off the mark. In summary, I believe that Sikhs should make themselves stronger spiritually, politically, financially, militarily. However, they should do this under the rader and not make it too obvious that Sikhs are preparing to set up a new state. Sikhs need to raise awareness amongst the population and be able to convince Sikhs, non-Sikhs and other nations that it is a great and beneficial idea. Sikhs should be patient, non-violent and peaceful, and prepare themselves for a great opportunity when their neighbours are in a weakened state and then grasp it with both hands and establish Khalsa Raj.

I agree, spiritually it doesnt matter about numbers etc. However, politically, it is vital for the survival of Sikhi and for the interests of the Sikh community. We are a very tolerant religion and dont really try too hard to spread our faith. However, this is also our downfall in many respects. We are swamped, out-numbered and over-whelmed by the other communities. Even in Punjab, supposedly Sikh parties like the Akali Dal have to create an alliance with the Hindu BJP just to keep in power, purely because there are not enough Sikhs in the state. Muslims in England are afforded all kinds of concessions simply because of their numbers and lobbying power. I take your point about quality over quantity and our own spiritual jeevans. However, I believe that it would be a mistake to neglect the importance of having a large and loyal population. Just think for a second, if there were as many Sikhs in the world as there are Muslims, would it as easy as it is for the Government to ban the wearing of kakkars and dastaars? We should make more of an effort to increase the number of practicing Sikhs worldwide. Many of community issues would be resolved simply by that alone

likewise

'Mate' You have raised some valid points about lack of 'evidence' and literature on the internet that counters Niddar Singhs claims. So technically you are correct in that I would not be able to provide you 'evidence' of debates that have occured with Niddar Singh. I could only tell you about my own personal experience with him, the experiences of others and things that I have heard from others. I agree that this is not really good enough, particularly if you are an academic, and particularly if you feel that you need 'evidence' before being convinced that Niddar Singh is a fraud. So I can see that how for 'a new person to the Sikh faith', who has 'limited knowledge and understanding of culture' could find Niddar Singhs anti-Sikh nonsense 'refreshing' and be impressed simply with the fact that he doesnt lose his temper when asked questions, compared to the supposedly thick, closed minded, fundamentalist Sikhs on this forum. For people in that particular boat, material should be put together in order to counter Niddar Singh, so that new people can have an alternative perspective. However, there are already countless other books on the Sikh faith and Sikh history, which tell a completely different story. I guess that commissioning a Sikh scholar/author to write a book which deals directly with Niddar Singhs could be an option. I may, in fact, raise this issue with some of my own contacts... Oh no wait, I might just sit on my PC and cry like a baby instead...

'Mate'.... You are demonstrating your lack of knowledge on this topic. Niddar has been debated many times with intellectuals, scholars and those of spiritual/panthic disposition. You have already admitted that you dont know what the RSS is. I suggest that you go away and read about what it is and the damage that it has done to the Sikh community over the last 30 years before you speak. They are a right wing militant hindu group who are doing their level best to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism, using whatever method they can. If you go on Niddars website he openly admits that he is part of the RSS and has links to their organisations on there He indulges in Hindu rituals and manipulates Sikh scriptures and beliefs to fall in line with Hindu ones. Clearly he has impressed you after your conversations with him and you have some sympathy for him. Perhaps you are right in that more effort could be made in producing counter literature against the rubbish that he propogates on his site. And perhaps you are right that more could be done on an intellectual level as you put it. Too be frank, most Singhs are pretty tired and fed up with his nonsense. Perhaps someone fresh like yourself could step forward, research and put together some counter arguments to his material. Personally, I believe that this will not be enough and that stronger measures will need to be taken against him, via the Akal Takhat Sahib

There is a time and place for playing the enlightened card and taking the moral high ground. Perhaps you dont fully appreciate the back and fourth debate that has raged on this topic since 1999, when Niddar first came on the scene. After 12 years of debating, reasoning going on to physically fighting with and publically humiliating this guy, keeping and open mind and engaging in lively debate is not really what needs to be done. He is openly RSS and is openly ridiculing and disgracing the very pillars and tenets of Sikhism. He is a fraud and con man and has dark designs for the impressionable UK Sikh youth. However, this turd does not flush away, and continues to survive, despite widespread condemnation and public humiliation.

Niddar is thick as three short planks. He only gets publicity due to his well oiled Pr machine. He can thank Paramjit Singh for that

Niddar is a turd that wont flush away. I thought that the numerous beatings and public humiliations that he suffered at hazoor sahib in 2008 would be enough to finish him off, however, he continues to stick his neck out and spew his rubbish, mis represening Sikhism and telling lies on open media forums. I dont think that things are going to end well for him

The girl is trying to straddle too many cultures and has her fingers in too many pots. She needs to decide what she is, what framework she is going to operate in and then stick to it. No point having the lifestyle habits of a gursikh but then having the dating habits of a goree. She will struggle for a long time with that kind of mix up. In the end though she will eventually break it. Usually, these sort of people compromise on their Sikhi values first. Maybe Im being too harsh and judgmental? Just my honest views.

Niddar = The last great Sikh con artist Shastar Vidya = the greatest fraud ever played on the Sikh youth

To be honest. Bad as it is. I would say. What more would you expect? Punjabis have always been extremely proud and arrogant and if they feel like someone is trying to bully them (even if they are in the right) they will resist it very aggressively. In a community that has a warped sense of honour and huge egos, I am not surprised that the Singhs were treated in that manner. They will have seen the Singhs there as an intrusion to their private space on their special day and as a direct insult on their honour, hence, the severe backlash. Personally, I am not a fan of protesting outside of peoples weddings. I do not think it is very constructive, and it places alot of pressure on the Gurdwaras, particularly since in one case, the Singhs disrupted the wedding, and the family subsequently took the Gurdwara to court for breach of contract. Hence, this added pressure creates an even greater divide between the gurdwaras and the youth. A compromise would be, and this would be much easier to enforce, if the non-Sikh member of the marriage party converted to Sikhism. Even if this meant that they would follow the very basic tenets of a sehajdhari Sikh by wearing a kara, using Singh/Kaur, following GGS ji and reciting mool mantar. They could sign a document to this effect. The above would satisfy the akal takhat maryada as both parties have now become Sikh and we would be gaining more followers to our faith through mixed marriages, in the same way that Muslims do. We have to think long term, about how we are going to expand our faith, rather than find ways to make this impossible, whilst damaging relations between the youth and the gurdwaras, the Singhs and the sehajdharis, and causing a riot on peoples' special day.

These pics are some of the earliest Sikh recruits absorbed into the british army. However, most of them would have served in the Khalsa Army of Maharajah Ranjit Singh. The Anglo Sikh wars finished only 7 years before these pictures were taken, and the British recruited many of the veterans of these campaigns to put down the Indian mutiny of 1857. They have the appearance and costumes that Sikhs of Maharajah Ranjit Singhs time would have had. The British began to change the dress, dastar style, beard tying etc during the late 1860s-1870s.

Its because of self interest. Self interest afflicts all nations, religions and individuals. However, self interest has been the DOWNFALL AND DEMISE of the Sikh race. Self interest is what led to the Phulkian/Malwa Sikh states to side with the British during Maharajah Ranjit Singhs reign. Self interest is what caused the treachery of the Sikh leadership during the Anglo Sikh wars (it wasnt just the dogras), many Sikh chiefs sided with the British during both the first and anglo Sikh war. It was self interest that led to the Sikh leadership giving away a Sikh state in 1947. It was self interest that led to the failure of the Khalistan morcha. And it is self interest that is eating away at us now. What is self interest? It is the desire to ensure that the individual is comfortable, able to survive and their needs are met at the expense of everyone else, even if that results in the total destruction of their own people.

Check these pics. These old Singhs remind me of Pirates of the Carribean lol. What Gs. Smashing it with the big hoopy earings lol. And try telling one of these dudes to tie up their daree for work lol. http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12134 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12138 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12129 http://avaxnews.com/pictures/12135 http://lh6.ggpht.com/-pmmf81eLjNM/R7oLNrHlvcI/AAAAAAAAEr4/2LEmeEs_RcQ/FELICE%252520BEATO%252520NATIVE%252520SIKH%252520SOLDIERS%2525201858%252520GROUP%252520PHOTO.jpg http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/images/portraits/1860-hod.jpg http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d25347/d2534735r.jpg