californiasardar1

Veer ji, I encountered the same problems as you (although my beard was untrimmed). It was extremely difficult to "get off the ground," as you put it. My search was mainly online. Hardly any girls were open to even talking. Among the 1% of girls who did give it a go, they almost all seemed rather disinterested right from the beginning. It was clear that they weren't really looking for a guy with a turban, and talking to one involved them stepping out of their comfort zone. At first, I thought perhaps I didn't have enough personality and wasn't engaging enough. But I've never come off this way in "real life" among friends. And after taking a step back and looking at the situation, there wasn't much I could even do. Girls who had "agreed" to talk to me could hardly be bothered to arrange a proper first conversation or date. It's hard to get anywhere when you're not taken seriously before you even have much of a chance to present yourself. Unless you are the exception to the rule, your options are limited to the following: 1. Accept a proper gursikh amritdhari lifestyle and come to terms with the idea of getting an arranged marriage to a gursikh girl. You will likely have to be open to girls from India. 2. Go to India. Girls there generally hate turbans too, but there are still enough girls desperate enough to leave India that you can use your NRI status as a bargaining chip. 3. If you are unwilling to accept a gursikh lifestyle and unwilling to go to India, you are between a rock and a hard place. Attempting to "date" will lead to lots of frustration. The only girls who want turbanned men are amritdhari and probably not the type who want to "date" and have a standard western-style courtship that many of us grow up expecting. They most likely want a proper gursikh arranged marriage. So you will be left with a bunch of girls who, all else being equal, would prefer a clean-shaven man. You will still have a chance, but you will have to really stand out in order to be considered over the plethora of clean-shaven "sikh" men. If you are not a superstar, you will most likely be left with girls who are considered undesirable by most men (for whatever reason), and are only talking to you because they can't "do better" Many will post in this thread and dispute what I have to say, but it is the cold, honest truth. You have to take a long, hard look at where you are as a Sikh. The problem men like me have is that we are hypocrites who want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to be who we are, but are unwilling to adopt a completely gursikh outlook and get an arranged marriage. We are too caught up in the notion of dating and finding a girl who "likes" us and can't let that go.

Paji, I don't claim that what I have done is a "solution." Any relief I might feel from this is temporary. I know I will never truly be happy until I regain my old form. I just felt I had sunk to such depths that I needed a different perspective and a bit of a break. I did not know what else to do. My hope is that I can recover and return a stronger person, better able to follow the path of Sikhi. I think you are absolutely correct about the way our community is divided. Sadly, I don't think people from the different categories understand and relate to each other. I always felt a disconnect when I interacted with amritdhari Sikhs, and I also felt a disconnect when I interacted with clean shaven Sikhs.

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and offered their advice and support. It has always been hard for me to find anyone to turn to, and I will always be grateful that I found some people here. Anyway, I feel as if I should confess what has happened. I hope it might inspire some of you to not fall into the traps I have and end up in the same place. If it does not affect any of you directly, perhaps you have younger brothers or sisters, or sons or daughters, or nephews or nieces who you could reach out to before they sink as low as I have. About two weeks ago, I cut my hair. It was the worst day of my life and I hate looking at myself in the mirror. There is nothing I want to say to try to justify my actions. I am weak and have fallen short of the standards I always wanted to hold myself to. I suppose all I can say is that I've been suffering from depression for several years. As my original post in this thread may have suggested, my problems are quite deep-rooted (and go far beyond anything related to Sikhi). I never felt as if I had much support to sort out my issues, and they have piled up higher and higher. I felt as though I should try to sort out my problems and rebuild myself before things get out of hand. I felt restricted and limited and didn't know what else to try. I know that is a pathetic excuse, and really there is no excuse. I had sunk so low, however, that I wasn't much of a Sikh anyway. I hope one day, when the time is right, I will start to look like myself again.

That's great that he does that. But if he identifies so strongly as a Sikh, why doesn't he want to look like one?

How come they couldn't find a sabat soorat sardar in all of punjab to play Beant Singh? Whether it's hindus in Bollywood, or mona sikhs in punjab, we get fed the same half-baked image of a sikh sardar: a mona who hasn't shaved for a few days and wears a turban in front of the camera. What a joke.

This completely overlooks the fact that there are Gurdwaras with hardly any amritdhari sangat. Where are those gurdwaras supposed to get their committee members from?

Based on discussions I've had with my parents and grandparents, it does seem that mona jatt sikhs were almost non-existent in the 20-30 years prior to the partition. Beard-trimming was common even back then, but it was virtually unheard of to see an adult jatt sikh male without a turban and facial hair. My parents and grandparents also tell me they never were aware of ANY jatts who lived in what is now the Indian state of Punjab who were Hindu rather than Sikh. But the period in question is the late 1800s, and I am wondering if prior to the Singh Sabha movement there were mona jatts who tread the line between being Sikh and Hindu (and would have been counted in the census as Hindu by the British who may have only recognized keshdharis as Sikhs). It is possible that with the parchar that took place during the Singh Sabha movement, these mona jatts who tread the line between being Sikh and Hindu became keshdharis and in future censuses were counted as jatt Sikhs. So by the 1930s, mona punjabi-speaking Hindu or Sikh jatts were virtually non-existant. But I am wondering if they were around in large numbers in the late 1800s, and, if so, what religion(s) they practiced and what religion they were identified as practicing (and if there was any discrepancy between these).

I totally agree with you, Jonny, that having a longer line of ancestors who were Sikh means nothing. It is foolish to feel pride in such a thing if you yourself are falling short. And yes, I too have seen examples of Sikhs who come from well known families (from the Lahore Darbar or families that were prominent during the misl period) who are now monay. I can only speak for myself, but the main reasons I am interested in this discussion have nothing to do with trying to establish which group of Sikhs are more "pakkay" or true. Rather, I want to know: 1. Considering how we are one of the only major faiths which did not grow by forced conversion, it is interesting to learn about when and why our ranks grew 2. I find it rather surprising that basically all punjabi-speaking jatts in India are Sikh while basically all hindi-speaking jats in India are Hindu. Why is this split so perfect? 3. It's always interesting to hear perspectives that challenge what we conventionally hold to be true, and that's why I wanted to know more about the example of your family 4. Identity is such an integral part of Sikhi, and it is interesting to explore what has defined us over the years and what that might say about our future Anyway, what would you say about my theory that the shift in numbers largely had to do with how people were being identified (by themselves and the British)? From what I've read about Punjab prior to the Singh Sabha movement, there was a large population of Punjabis who observed some Hindu practices along with some Sikh practices. Perhaps it is most accurate to say that what the Singh Sabha movement did was not so much convert people, but rather define more clearly for the masses how Sikhi was supposed to be practiced, and in turn influence people who had already been exposed to Sikhi to start practicing it properly. In 1881, for instance, a sardar who practiced some Hindu rituals might have been counted as a Sikh. On the other hand, monay jatts who partook in Sikh practices as well as Hindu practices might have been counted as Hindus. After the Singh Sabha movement, many Sikhs had stopped practicing Hindu rituals so it may have been easier to distinguish between Hindus and Sikhs. Moreover, I'm wondering if many of the monay jatts of 1881 who tread the line between Sikhi and Hinduism (and were probably counted as HIndus) had by 1931 become keshdhari sikhs (or their descendants had become keshdhari sikhs). That could explain both the discrepancy in the Sikh/Hindu division among jatts, while at the same time not directly conflicting with the widely held view that the vast majority of jatt Sikhs have had Sikhi in their family (whether in the strict khalsa tradition, or as monay who observed some Sikh practices) since the early 1700s.

Legal Singh / West London Singh: That's a good point. The discrepancy may come down to a combination of how "country bumpkin" types misidentified themselves and how the British misidentified monay Sikhs as being Hindu. Of course, this is all speculation. Maybe it is true that there were lots of Hindu jatts in Punjab who actually converted to Sikhi in the late 1800s. I don't doubt that there were a substantial number of such people. I am a bit surprised and skeptical, however, that Hindu jatts outnumbered Sikh jatts in many areas of the modern state of Punjab. I've never met any jatt Sikhs who have described their ancestors as being Hindu as recently as the late 1800s. That should not have been the case if the census didn't have any issues.

A very interesting discussion about the Sikh and Hindu jatt/jat population distribution and change Here is another theory: perhaps in the 1881 census, the British counted monay jatt Sikhs as Hindu jatts? Then, by 1931, it is possible that either the British conducted the census with more care (counting monay jatt Sikhs as Sikhs), or, thanks to the efforts of the Singh Sabha movement, most of the monay jatt Sikhs had been converted to keshdharis Historically in many parts of Punjab, people had respect for both Sikh and Hindu practices (and sometimes this went beyond "respect" and consisted of actually partaking in different practices prescribed by each faith). So, with Sikhi still a very young faith and large population of people who probably tread the line between being Sikh and Hindu, it is possible that anyone who "tread the line" and didn't have the outward appearance of a Sikh was considered Hindu. There must be something to the old saying that a Sikh who cut his kesh had reverted back to Hinduism

Thanks for the response, that's interesting. What district is your family from? I'm wondering if there is a geographic trend It is very surprising to me that jatt religious practices are so perfectly divided by the Punjab/Haryana boundary. I've never heard of there being Hindu jatts in the modern state of Punjab (if anyone has, please let me know). I know there are some Sikh jatts in Haryana, but my understanding is that these are virtually all Punjabi-speaking jatts who were originally from central/west Punjab and resettled in (what later became) northern Haryana after 1947. One would think the geographic division wouldn't be so precise (In other words, I would have expected a few Punjabi-speaking Hindu jatts left over in the modern state of Punjab, and I would also have expected a few Hindi-speaking Sikh jatts sprinkled throughout Haryana).

Were the jatts who lived in your village a mix of Sikhs and Muslims before 1947? I know that before 1947, there were many muslim jatts in east punjab (and, similarly, many sikh jatts in west punjab). However, I wasn't sure if this mix was present even WITHIN a given village Do the Sikhs members of your clan have any contact with the relocated muslim members?

Are you jatt? I ask because I've often heard how Jatts converted to Sikhi in mass numbers from the time of Guru Hargobind through the time of Banda Singh Bahadur Other groups of Sikhs are often characterized as being the ones who converted during the time of Ranjit Singh's empire or during the Singh Sabha movement I'm curious if, contrary to this, there were large number of jatts who eventually became Sikhs but were Hindu or tread the line between being Hindu and Sikh as recently as the late 1800s

I do support him! I think he's done great work, and I hope we continue to see more of him in the future. I'm not criticizing him. I'm just making an observation and noting that it's sad that some of our best, brightest and most passionate for some reason still have issues with the traditional Sikh appearance. But I guess we all know which way the wind is blowing.

It looks like it was just a temporary transformation. His beard in recent interviews is shorter than it was in the movie. Oh well.

Why is Kuljinder Sidhu sitting there without a pag on his head? I'm glad he made the film and it doesn't take away from his work. But it's puzzling and sad that people who obviously care deeply for the Sikh quam somehow cannot bring themselves to wear turbans and look like proper Sikhs.

I respect and understand the point of view of those who say only two Sikhs should be able to get married i a Gurudwara However, I can't bring myself to care very much when you consider what a joke most anand karajs have become anyway. 99% of guys will tear off their pag and shave their beard 5 minutes after leaving the Gurudwara. What a mockery. Hardly anyone even knows the meaning of the ceremony

Great points!!! I totally agree with you We have become more concerned about "shrines" than keeping Sikhi alive

I've noticed this. Why is this the case? It's sad, but I just think most Singhs don't care about their appearance. This translates into a lack of physical fitness as well. What do you mean by blaming "haircut jobs"?

Hello Vikrampreet, I really feel for you, and I know it is difficult to deal with what you are going through. I also grew up in America and I was always the only Sikh in my school. I was always outnumbered, and physically challenging everyone who had something to say to me would have been unrealistic and unwise. I also declined to notify school authorities, since that would only seem to lead to further marginalization among my peers. However, I only dealt with verbal abuse. Nobody ever tried to pull off my patka or anything. If you are dealing with serious physical treats, you should probably let the teachers and counselors at the school know what is going on. My approach was to just ignore people when they said stupid things. I realize it is not always easy to do this, but it seemed like the best option to me. What made it a lot easier was having a group of friends who were not ignorant and who respected my religious beliefs. If you can find a good group of friends, you'll feel better about yourself. Also, the idiots who tease you will be less likely to say anything to you if you are always with other people. I am not sure what kinds of courses you are enrolled in, but I generally found that kids who took honors or advanced placement courses were more respectful of people who looked different. Where in America do you live? If you live near a community of other Sikhs, making friends with other young Sikhs your age (even if they don't go to your high school) is worth trying. Having a place to go and people to hang out with can make a big difference.

punjabi jatt style

You are right that they are still keeping their kesh. Wearing a patka or bandana is not a violation of the Sikh religious code. I wear a patka when I'm exercising (but never at any other time). However, they are running away from the typical Sikh look and trying to "hide". It makes it look like they are ashamed to be Sikhs with uncut hair and that they are trying to disassociate themselves from other keshdhari Sikhs. It makes them look like they have low self-esteem, and it reinforces the notion that sardars are unattractive and that the sardar "brand" (as you put it some time ago) is not something one would want to be associated with. When a Sikh wears a nicely tied pag, it says that he/she is proud to be Sikh and wants the whole world to know it. I think if you are going to be a Sikh with uncut hair, you should go all out and do it right.

No, the film makers deserve criticism. I don't think our own people are to blame for every incident of disrespect to the Sikh identity. That's certainly not the case here. All I'm saying is: 1. The less respect our own people have for it, the harder it is to fight disrespect from other quarters 2. Any disrespect towards turbanned Sikhs is bad and should not be tolerated. But it's much worse when it comes from our own, and to be honest, I think the discrimination that comes from our own is much more harmful to our community than the discrimination that comes from outsiders. 3. While we continue to fight prejudice and hatred coming from others, let's also address the ignorance coming from our own

lol Point taken, but how can we get others to respect us when we can't even respect ourselves?

If you go back far enough, any two human beings will have a common ancestor The question is, how far back enough does that ancestor have to have lived for it to not matter If someone is going to argue strongly on here that having the same surname should be taboo, they should be consistent and insist that you make sure that you and your partner do not have ANY ancestors with the same surname.