Kharkoo4Life

Once you have thought about the role this "mere bani" plays within your life, then I will try to answer your questions. Until then, i shall remain silent on this topic as i feel there could be a chance where i may act un-gursikh like. May the Power, Love and Humility of GURBANI resound within the hearts of the children of the ONE, TRUE Lord... 133673[/snapback] Fateh, bro you have misinterpreted my words. If i did not value gurbani y would i base all my discussion on gurbani? If i did not value or respect gurbani y woudl i ask you to do the same? You have grossly misquoted my words. Read by words again, at each point i made sure that i said " MERE SOUND OF BANI", not mere bani itself. By this i meant that merely playing a tape of gurbani, or mrely listening to gurbani alone is of limited use. I do not doubt the importance of gurbani, for it is the foundation of a sikh, but what use is that foundation if we dont understand it. If we get a textbook for school course, simply listenin to someone else read it our aloud wont help us pass our exams. EVen only reading the book ourselves wont guarantee we pass the exams. Only way we will pass the exam is if we sit down, read the book AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND the concepts and subject matter within. So why should our appraoch with gurbani, something millions of times more valuable than any textbook be any different? Why should the time and effort we put to understanding gurbani be less than even an ordinary school textbook? But for the majority of Sikhs thats exactly the case. ANd that my friend is a shame. pRB bwxI sbdu suBwiKAw ] The Word of God's Bani, and His Shabad, are the best utterances. gwvhu suxhu pVhu inq BweI gur pUrY qU rwiKAw ] rhwau ] So constantly sing them, listen to them, and read them, O Siblings of Destiny, and the Perfect Guru shall save you. The Guru tells us not only to sing it, and listen to it, but READ IT AS WELL. Because merely the sound of gurbani alone, by which i mean just hearing it, will not have the intended effect on the person as the guru sought. gurmiq suin kCu igAwnu n aupijE psu ijau audru Brau ] I listened to the Guru's Teachings, but spiritual wisdom did not well up within me; like a beast, I fill my belly Why did this gyaan, wisdom not come even after listening to the bani? Cuz the person did not reflect on the word of the guru and understand it. swD sMgiq gur Sbd sux gur aupdyS n irdy smHwly] He, who even listening to the word of Guru in the holy congregation does not adopt the teachings of Guru in his heart. iDRg jIvx bymuK byqwly ]òú] Is opposed to Guru and the life of such an imbalanced person is opprobrious. And in order to adopt something you have to understand it. Otherwise if we follow it without understanding it becomes a blind practice. I do not question your respect for the Guru Ji so why do u question mine? Read my post above, for it is not the bani i criticize but the lack of critical analysis and refelction on the contents of the bani by sikhs in general which i criticize. Multiple tiems in gurbani the guru has told us that merely seeking his darshan or listening to him is meaningless. siqgur no sBu ko vyKdw jyqw jgqu sMswru ] All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru. ifTY mukiq n hoveI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ] One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad. We are lackin contemplation in today world of Sikhi. Why did the gurus spend so many years of their life travelling, talkin to people, discussing their beliefs, exchaning their views with people form around the world? IF mere sound of bani was enuff, all they had to do was send out people who had memorized the shabads n tell em to sing em over n over n that wud be enuff. But they didnt. THey went themselves and DICUSSED things. THey even set up kathavachakas during their time to do katha about the sikhi sidhaant. So i remain baffled at how you can question the role of gurbani in my life. Every belief, every action, every thought i have in my life i try to base it on the gurbani so how do say that i do not respect bani? Ihope this clears up any doubt you have or misunderstanding about my relation with gurbani. If you have the desire for a proper discussion, on a dicussion forum, then by all means please respond to my questions as i would be happy to hear your views. I hope you take this as a challenge to strenghten your own knowledge of sikhi rather than shy away based on some false assumtption bout my stance on gurbani. Rab Rakha

U are exactly right!!! These false practices have been deeply engrained in many sikhs minds because we as sikhs have been been lazy and not taking the time to understand gurbani ourselves. So we rely on others to tell us. But the guru has told us, why rely on others to learn? A sikh is not like a hindu that he must rely only on a brahmin to learn bout the scriptures. That is why the Guru shared the most valuable treasure, of shabad GUru, WITH ALL OF US. FOr each of us to read, understand and follow on our own. But sadly, nearly 99.999% of sikhs dont do this. isKI isiKAw gur vIcwir ] Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings; We learn only through contemplating the Guru. And contemplating doesnt mean simply staring at the saroop of maharaj ji, or jus reading the words over and over like a magical mantra, it entails a seroius attempt to read, reflect, discuss and try to understand every word of gurbani. Until a sikh does that he will be doomed to follow the same paths of blind faith and ignorance as was the case before guru nanak.

Fateh, Thank you for your responses. It is thru open vichaar like this that we are able to learn from each other and make each of ourselves stronger in our Sikhi. By using this mentality you are then saying that the Sarovar of Sri Harmandar Sahib is NOT pure and pavitar because there are fish which swim, eat and excrete within the same water. However, I believe that because of the bani that is played 24/7 that the mere "water" turns from being a polluted substance of hydrogen and oxygen into something much more powerful and spiritual (AMRIT)... If you too believe this then your statements are false... This is a major misconception amongst the masses that pani, and for that matter any food can become somethin greater than ordinary by mere sound of bani. The sarovar around Sri Darbar Sahib, Amritsar should be treated with respect for it is a place of great sanctity, history and significance and i do not contest that point but how can we call that pani amrit? If your logic of bani somehow transforming the polluted water into amrit is true than why was has there been the repeated need to do karseva of the sarovar? Why after each time the Darbar Sahib was attacked and sarovar riddled with blood and filth did people have to PHYSICALLY clean the sarovar? If the power of mwerely the sound of bani is so strong and able to sanctify the pani into something so powerful and spiritual as amrit, than the simple task of decontaminating mere earthly material filth should be no problem. Also by your above stated logic, if mere sound current of bani is enuf to make water into amrit, than i ask u if i were to palce a large jug of water, and put on live kirtan feed 24/7 on a stereo next to that jug will that jug somehow turn into amrit? Amrit is a very important and essential part of Sikhi jeevan, one which should be regarded with the utmost respect so do not belittle its value by attributing its significance to something so ordinary. What do u mean by Bhog? How does this transform the food into somethin of divine purity? Such thinking is tantamount to brahmin matt. Are you implying that the food that God Himself creates, food He Himself nourishes and grows somehow is impure and that He needs us humans to make it pure? This was the thinking that brahmins, kajeez used to keep the common hindu and muslim person at their mercy. During the celebrtion of Eidh, a grand feast is eaten by the muslims marking the end of their fast. However, after cooking the food, they wait for the kaazee to come and read droodh (a form of prayer) and bless their food. Only after this is done are they allowed to eat it. nwnk pITw pkw swijAw DirAw Awix maujUdu ] O Nanak, he grinds the corn, cooks it and places it before himself. bwJhu siqgur Awpxy bYTw Jwku drUd ]2] But without his True Guru, he sits and waits for his food to be blessed. The guru rejects this ritualistic practice so how can u say that the guru has somehow accepted a practice of purifying the food by reading bani? how does that practice differ from that of muslims reading from koran? The Guru says there is no need for such karam kaand. It is not the food which is impure or needs to be purified but rather our minds. And how do we purify it, through understanding and following the teachings of the Guru. The Guru answers this in the next lines: nwnk BusrIAw pkweIAw pweIAw QwlY mwih ] O Nanak, even if the bread is cooked on floor and then placed on the plate. FONT=GurbaniWebThick]ijnI gurU mnwieAw rij rij syeI Kwih ]3][/font] Those who obey their Guru, eat and are totally satisfied Poosri, means roti made without proper stove/oven. In olden times, very poor ppl used either a simple brick and some even just floor to cook their food cuz they cud not use any utensils=this was known as poosrit. The guru makes a strong reference here, that for a sikh his contentment in life doesnt rest in small meaningless rituals (eg. how is food is prepared, wut utensils, with or without special prayer) but rather in pleasing his guru by folliwng his teachings. When he lives according to the Hukam of Waheguru, than even if he is forced to eat off the ground he remains worry free and happy. Now take that message from our Guru and compare it todays practice. Here we are worried if the plate or even cup touches someone elses, yet the guru is sayin it is ok even if a sikh eats off the ground, (ground which countless ppl walk on, millions of germs, bacteria, ants crawl around on) it wont effect him so long as his mind remains absorbed in waheguru. ALso as for the gurdwara langar, you agree that you dont sit and watch them cook it but u are willing to place full faith in a mere ceremony of bhog of making it pure. You say that the rehit of eating food only prepared by amritdhari is important, well how can u say that of the countless sevadaars in the kitchend cooking and serving that a few may be non-amritdhari. Who knows how many ladies and men who are not amritdhari may have spend many hours repeatedly touching the food, cutting it, washing it, kneading the atta, then serving it? My argument was not that we shud have to dip our spoon into someone elses plate and eat from there, but rather that touching of plates, cups, spoons etc. does not make our food impure. Even taking food from a common plate, eg. salad, doesnt make it impure. Now consider the simple example of spoons at langar hall, they are usually in a single bucket or container, and everyone reaches in to pick one spoon out and who knows where the previous 100 ppl's hands were before. By your argument this would make the spoons contaminated so should they have a "special" sections for spoons only for amritdhari people? ALso, consider Guru Nanak. He travelled far and wide for over 30 years all around the globe. Now he didnt take no personal amritdhari chef with him on these travels and nor did he have a 30 year supply of canned food in his backpack. In most cases it was just himself and bhai marhana ji so where did the food come from? And he cudnt have jus minimized or avoided food cuz travelling this far and for that long one needs a very physcially fit body, which is undoable without proper nutrition. Wherever the guru went he talked in the local dialect, lived with the local people, and most likely consumed their local dishes. Now he didnt have no bora of atta or saag with him to get the local chefs to cook forhim, so he must of ate wutever ws avaialable, and however the local shardhaloos brought it to him. In many places, diets consited primarily of seafood, fish etc so it is not farfetched to assume they ate that as well. Do u think the Guru ji worried bout the purity of the food being made? Do u think he questioned before eating every meal whre was this made, how was this made, and was it done by a amritdhari sikh? mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ] The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals From a distance? He didnt have no hose with him to pump the water. People seriously wounded have to be cared for up close, meaning touching the patient. You cant jus throw water at them like some plant or tree from afar. And how can u use the logic that it was unavoidable so it was ok in that scenario. Are you saying a Sikh is allowed to break his rehit if the situation is life and death? What happend to the slogan "Sir Jaavay Ta Jaavay, pur Mera Sikhi Sidhak Na Javay"? In this case are you saying it was ok for the sikh to sacrifice his sidhak? I agree with u thre is nothing wrong bout being careful and catious bout what we eat and where it comes from but one must excercise some common sense and reason as well. Reason whcih stems not from some baba, dera, or jatha but from Guru Granth Sahib. I respect your views but it is imperative that we are able to analyze our own bliefs as well those of others on the kusvutee of gurmat, i.e. based on the teachings of gurbani. Otherwise what we do, the rehit we adhere to, the sikhi we uphold will all become mere karam kaand and be no different from the very rituals and blind faith the guru worked so hard to free us from. AigAwnI AMDw bhu krm idRVwey ] The ignorant and blind cling to all sorts of rituals. mnhiT krm iPir jonI pwey ] They stubborn-mindedly perform these rituals, and are consigned to reincarnation. gur kY sbid Bgiq insqwrxu ] Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, His devotees are saved. Let us base all our reasoning on gurmat for the guru himself has told us: ibnu sbdY quDuno koeI n jwxI ] Without the Shabad, no one knows You We can follow another person whom we consider to be highly spiritual, god loving as much as we like but until we ourselves come to understand the shabad guru with our own minds we will never achieve the goal. SO do not worry yourself about how your food will somehow beceom "jooth" or impure if it comes into contact with someone else. Rather work on purifying your mind from within. ONes u reach that stage then these little efforts of special anti-jooth rehits will become meaningless because you will realize that God always knows how pure you are from within siB sMjm rhy isAwxpw ] All strict rituals are just clever contrivances. myrw pRBu sBu ikCu jwxdw ] My God knows everything. You will no longer look at a person and say oh he is amritdhari so i can eat from same plate as him but he isnt so i must be careful not to let my food touch his. You will realize that ALL humans being are equal and within each person resides the same God, a God who is the definition of purity, a God who is Nirmal (without maal) so how will you be able to point at one person and label him as a potential contaminator and another as being acceptable and pure? srY srIAiq krih bIcwru ] Some think about religious rituals and regulations, ibnu bUJy kYsy pwvih pwru ] but without understanding, how can they cross over to the other side? isdku kir isjdw mnu kir mKsUdu ] Let sincere faith be your bowing in prayer, and let the conquest of your mind be your objective in life. ijh iDir dyKw iqh iDir maujUdu ]1] Wherever I look, there I see God's Presence. Again, i look forward to your responses, and i sincerly hope this time around you will try and use gurbani to support your claims. I say this not to argue but rather that it will help you see for urself wut is true and wut is false, wut is in agreement with gurmat and wut is anti-gurmat. So rather than taking my word for it, or some mahapursh;s word for it, y not try and find out yourself what the Guru has to say about it? Wish u the best in ur search for truth.

You are exactly right. This practice is in fact nothing more than a hollow ritual to prove ones purity to oneself and to those around them. And you are right in asking how is this nothing more than a sign of inequality, because it is! I know various jathas, taksals etc. advocate that for an amritdhari person they must eat and cook their food such and such a way. I am not here to demean any particular jatha for everyone has their own opinions to which they are entitled to wit due respect, however, any stance which pertains to the Khalsa Panth as a whole and is being preached for the entire panth, then it is a duty of any respectful Sikh to make sure such information being preached to the Panth as a whole is in full agreement with Gurmat. We must each make an effort to find out wut principle of Gurbani supports this practice, or if not what principles reject this practice. With regards to ur comments Taksali Singh, i would respectuly seek your responses to the following questions i have. You stated that: How does bani make food pavitar pure? If a cup of water is contaminated with bacteria, viruses, parasites, toxins, dirt or any other kind of filth how will reciting bani rid that cup of water of this filth? We have to use rational means here, of either boiling that water, using filtration devices etc to purify that water, otherwise no matter how many times we say waheguru that water will not magically become clean. Or is ur defintion of purity different that physical doesnt matter in this case? By your comments you realize the importance of both phsyical and spiritual cleansiness because u said: Well from the above example it is obvious that simple reading bani alone cant make any food "clean", we have to take active physical measures to ensure its cleansiness. So simply saying that food is made in langar is pure doesnt hold on either ground, cuz first as stated reading bani doesnt clean food, and secondly the only way to clean food is manually which we cant ensure even in gurdwara cuz im sure u dont stand there 24 hours watching every sevadaar clean every morsel of food from every type of contamination. Its all an assumption that it has been. I am confused but how is the above not a blatant practice of inequality? Are you saying that a Sikh shows his love for a guru by choosing who he sits and eats with? How does this show our respect to our Guru? I am perplexed that someone wud tell u that a dirty cup touchgin a clean cup wud make it jus as dirty for maybe this person lacks some basic knowledge about germ transfer. How do two cups touching on outside alter the nature of the inner contents of those cups? Obviously if the water in those cups somehow spilled into the other than yes it cud get dirty but just touching another cup? That seems ludicrous. I am sure you are familiar with Bhai Kanayia Ji and his selfless service in the battlefieds to friend and foe alike. When water was served then they did not have autmated water pumps or portable coolers to pour it with plastic cups to hand out to the fallend soldiers. They used thick boray or pitchers to give water, and the wounded souldiers wre given water either into their hands. Do you not think that these boray or pitchers touched the hands of the soldiers, soliders of both Sikh AND mughal forces (obviously who werent amrithdhari). Did it not get contaminated here and become unpure? Or if u want to argue that it never touched the hands of the soldier that they poured it from afar, how bout those soldiers who were to wounded to move their arms or hands, did Bhai Kanayia jus pass them to avoid risk of contaminating the water by givin the water directly to their lips? Would such a man who saw his Guru/waheguru in each fallen soldeirs face discriminate so visciously against those in need? You seem so worried that your food, and hence your sikhi will become unpavitar if it comes into contact with a non amritdhari, well do u think the guru carried this same worry and fear when he made it mandatory for every person who wanted his darshan to first come and eat in the common langar? Mughals, hindus, sikhs all ate together there, do u think the guru wud preach to his sikhs oh sit and eat with them but be very careful not to let any of ur cups or plates touch the polluted mughals and hindus? How does this reasoning apply? If a sikh should practice such lofty "purity" why shouldnt we excercise the same amount of respect and diligence for our fellow non sikh brothers and sisters and ensure they too remain "pure". Is their purity not as importance to us? I would be more than glad to hear your comments and please show me where in gurbani such physical "purity" is encouraged. You make mention that we dont understand the concept of jooth very well and jus brush past it well please enlighten us WITH GURBANI on the meaning of jooth and how we can avoid it. ANd as for your LostSoul, do not let yourself get lost in these doctrines of purity vs. purity. If you seek real answers to this topic then ask the Guru, for his is the only answer we should follow. I will post again with gurbani references later.

Fateh, As Bhai Balwincer Singh Ji nicely summed up, a pandit is essentially a scholar, a learned one. Unfortunately, over time and due to less than admirable actions of some people who took advantage of this title of 'pandit' and used it to exploit others the term pandit has come to be associated with negative connotations. Particularly when one sees any Indian film, a pandit will always be depicted as some mystical man dressed in orange rags, carring a notebook with magical mantars sayin ram ram with his lips, but whose hidden agenda is to cheat the common rural folk out of their money. However the orgin of the term pandit, and for that matter even brahmin, has no relation to hinduism or any other religion. Both refer to a state of mind, not religious denomination. Even during the times of the GUrus, the term pandit was used to denote someone who had attained high academic, intellectual abilities. But even then, rather than scrutinizin each so called pandit based on his thoughts and actions, people became attached solely to the title pandit and from this the matter further degraded as others realized it wud be easy to exploit the masses simply by pretending to be a 'pandit. The Guru though, is not against pandits (or brahmins) so long as they are TRUE pandits (and brahmins). That is why the Guru actually praises the term pandit in Sri Guru Granth Sahib: so pMifqu jo mnu prboDY ] He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind rwm nwmu Awqm mih soDY ] He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul. Thus as Balwinder Singh ji rightfully said, any person can become a Pandit, including Sikhs. A pandit is one who is a learner, one who acquires knowledge, one who tries to learn the ways to control ones mind. And this was the original purpose of education and why even in schools in Punjab, schools with Sikh majority, not very long ago Pandit was an academic degree, a level of high disticintion given to those students who reached this level. And this is the case we often hear the name of Pandit Kartar Singh Dhakha. He wsnt a pandit in the sense we see today in movies, he was a scholar. And the Guru says, when one engages in the school of Gurmat, and upon graduation from this school attains his degree, he too is an actual pandit. rwm nwm swru rsu pIvY ] He drinks in the Exquisite Nectar of the Lord's Name ausu pMifq kY aupdyis jgu jIvY ] By that Pandit's teachings, the world lives. hir kI kQw ihrdY bswvY ] He implants the Sermon of the Lord in his heart. so pMifqu iPir join n AwvY ] Such a Pandit is not cast into the womb of reincarnation again. byd purwn isimRiq bUJY mUl ] He understands the fundamental essence of the Vedas, the Puraanas and the Simritees. sUKm mih jwnY AsQUlu ] In the unmanifest, he sees the manifest world to exist. chu vrnw kau dy aupdysu ] He gives instruction to people of all castes and social classes. nwnk ausu pMifq kau sdw Adysu ]4] O Nanak, to such a Pandit, I bow in salutation forever. Only such a person is a true pandit. Now in Sikhi there is another unique aspect to this concept of pandit. Since pandit is a degree one attains, it means one who embarks upon thig endevaour is a student. And for every student there is a teacher, for without a teacher the term student would not exist. And this is where the term Pandha, pwDW comes in. For a Sikh, his or her pandha is the Guru, cuz pandha is one who teaches, one who imparts knowledge, one who guides. myry rwm hm bwirk hir pRB ky hY ieAwxy ] O my Lord, we are just the ignorant children of our Lord God DMnu DMnu gurU guru siqguru pwDw ijin hir aupdysu dy kIey isAwxy ]1] rhwau ] Hail, hail, to the Guru, the Guru, the True Guru, the Divine Teacher who has made me wise through the Lord's Teachings. The Guru is the pandha, and one who learns from the guru, who contemplates on and understands his teachings, he or she is a pandit, a learned one. One who is able to comprehend and incorporate the teachings of Gurbani, has attained the most valuable degree in life, and thus is a true pandit. Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion about who and what a pandit is.

Fateh, U can dl the full radio interview at the following address: radio interview Listen with an open mind with one underlying guiding principle...that any claim one makes in the realm of Dharam, should always be supported and in agreement with that written in gurbani

Fateh, Firstly, i must say thanks for sharing an excellent article G.Kaur. I agree it is a testamount to the sad state into which Sikh is quickly spiralling downwards that false beliefs such as these have become so tightly engrained into the psyche of the average Sikh household. We all proudly claim our reverence and allegiance to the Guru, wearing colour "Proud to be Sikh" t-shirts, khandas hangin in our cars, colorful dastaars on our head, and vehmently shouting slogans in praise of Khalsa during the annual Vaisakhi parades but how many of us actually keep the teachings of the Guru inside our minds? We claim to be humble devotees of the Guru, but what use is being a student if we fail to follow the instructions of our teacher? Why enroll in the classroom of Sikhi if we arent willing to listen, reflect and undestand the classnotes (gurbani) and incorporate them into our life? The question of equality of the genders shouldnt even be a question to begin with. The guru makes repeated mention in gurbani that all humanity is created equal, and this may be a big suprise to all the non biology students out there, THIS INCLUDES WOMEN!! women do not belong to a separate human species and males to another. We are both part of the same one mwns kI jwq. Now granted, men and women may be different, but this difference is limited solely to our physical structure. Our spiritual makeup, ie. our minds/soul are 100% identical. Differences in form are related to their different functions. Our hands and feet are both extremities, and both are attached to the same body. However due to their varying function, the two have completely different structures and appearance. SImilarly, the male and female forms are both attached to the same soul, that connected to God, but due to various different functions God has blessed each with, the two form have highly different structures and appearance. The anatomy and physiology behind human procreation and birth is truly one of the greatest marvels of this universe, one which man will never be able to replicate on his own. God has blessed the woman with such an amazing form that she is able to continue with her daily duties with relative ease while her reproductive cycle keeps renewing itself automatically. To even attempt to imagine the infinite fine intricacies that must be involved in order to sustain such a system, and that too all on its own, would leave the unfamiliar mind bedazzled. Such is the marvel and greatness of Gods Grace upon the woman. Now moving to the argument about whether woman should be allowed to carry out certain duties during their period. As mentioned in the above article, the particular day of her cycle a woman is in has absolutely no bearing on her right to perform any seva. Any person who is physically and mentally able to carry out any such duties has full authorization to do so. ANd this authorization is not granted by you, me or the general sangat, but by the Guru himself. THis is not any recent decleration thru some online hukamnama ordered by ppl with vested interests, but is the hukam of the guru dating back to the times of the start of Sikhi. ANd we do not have to search far to find proof of this, for it is given to us clearly in the Guru Granth Sahib itself: blvMf KIvI nyk jn ijsu bhuqI Cwau pqRwlI ] Balwand says that Khivi, the Guru's wife, is a noble woman, who gives soothing, leafy shade to all. lµgir dauliq vMfIAY rsu AMimRqu KIir iGAwlI ] She distributes the bounty of the Guru's Langar; the kheer - the rice pudding and ghee, is like sweet ambrosia. Now someone whose actual name is mentioned in gurbani, a privilge enjoyed by only a handful of ppl out of thousands of Sikhs during that time, it begs us to ask the question if woman are impure (even if only considered to be such at certain times of month) did the Guru fail to realize this or make a small oversight and mistakenly include the name of an otherwise filth ridden woman? If the Guru made the rare decision to actually include mention of her name in Gurbani, a bani which the guru himself declared to be straight from the lips of God ( Dur kI bwxI) do u think the Guru would have ever told such a woman, a woman who is refered to as "mother" in gurbani (mwqw KIvI shu soie ijin goie auTwlI ), that oh even tho u are worthy of having ur name listed in Guru Granth Sahib , you are not eligible to serve langar for the next five days because you are polluted? Could such absurd logic ever be attributed to the teachings of our Guru? Purity of a person, be they man or woman, is related to their purity of thoughts, purity of actions, not the physiology of their body. And the guru gives direct refrence to this in gurbani: ijau jorU isrnwvxI AwvY vwro vwr ] As a woman has her periods, month after month, jUTy jUTw muiK vsY inq inq hoie KuAwru ] so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again. sUcy eyih n AwKIAih bhin ij ipMfw Doie ] They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies. sUcy syeI nwnkw ijn min visAw soie ]2] Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. This shabad does not imply that a womans periods are false or impure. It is used merely as means of figurative analogy. What it tells us is that an impure, dishonest polluted person doesn not become purified mearly by washing themselves thru phyical means. If a woman has a period, she will not magically become pure by washing herself, or merely have to wait 3-4 days till she becomes pure again, because her pureness is not related to the body to begin with! Ones purity comes from within, not the outside. ibnu sbdY suDu n hoveI jy Anyk krY sIgwr ] Without the Word of the Shabad, purity is not obtained, even though the soul-bride may adorn herself with all sorts of decorations. No matter how many efforts we make on the outside to "purify" oursleves, (washing, bathing, waiting for ones period to end, or ending it all together by medical means) none of it has any relation to ones true purity. This comes thru gyaan, thru shabad vichaar. So if we are going to make a list of who can or cannot sit on tabyia, who can or can not do seva in the gurdwara, who can or can not do kirtan, let us make such a list based on the understanding and teachings of gurbani and not base it on the diameter of ones endometrial vasculature. May Waheguru bless us all with the gyaan of gurmat.

Its not so much the gurdwara that matters, but the intent one goes there with. If ones goes with a earnest effort to sit amongt saadh sangat and learn something useful from the teachings of Gurbani than nearly all gurdwaras have something to offer. But if one goes with a preconceived judgment already made in their mind and a goal to criticize and find faults then in that case no gurdwara will fully satisfy ones mind. I am from the vancouver area, and have attended all listed gurdwaras at one time or another. Each has certain qualities about it which are positive, and each also has qualities which are negative. However, overall, i would recommend going to Akali Singh Gurdwara in Vancouver, or Singh Sabha Gurdwara in Surrey as from recent experience ive found that these two usualy have excellent balance of good kirtani jathas and kathavachaks with minimal announcemnts of social or political nature. Gyani Jasbir Singh at Akali Singh Gurdwara is amongst the finest granthis in any gurdwara here in BC, and does daily katha about various gurbani topics in the evenings, and twice on the weekends. If time permits, ohters gurdwaras u may wish to visit are Dasmesh Darbar and Guru Nanak Sikh Temple, both in surrey. Enjoy ur visit to Vancouver! Fateh

Fateh, Simply put, the life of a Sikh is based on the teachings of the Guru, which in turn have been collected together and passed down to us in the form of Gurbani. The teachings of gurbani, known as Gurmat, have one unifying principle behind them: to unite our souls, our conscious with God. And how does gurmat go about doing that? By telling us that in order to realize God, to fully appreciate and merge our minds into His we have to understand Gods nature, His qualities, His personality and then strive to develop those same qualities, "gunn" (virtues) in our own lives. Amongst these qualities is the concept of Greshti Jeevan, which means family life. God is the Supreme Creator of the whole universe, including humanity, thus we are all bonded as His children and He our father. Our family may include only a few members but His family is infinite..every creature is His child. Awpy jMq aupwieAnu Awpy AwDwru ] He Himself created the creatures, and He Himself supports them. Awip iekwqI hoie rhY Awpy vf prvwru ] He Himself remains a solitary recluse, and He Himself has a huge family. Awpy hI vf prvwru Awip iekwqIAw ] He Himself has the greatest family; He Himself is all alone. Now it is easy to understand that Gods family is immense but why also mention that He is a 'solitary recluse', or "all alone". This is to make us realize that though He lives the life of a householder, amidst a huge family, He is not attached (Moh) to it. Meaning, His unconditional Love and Joy in caring for His family remainst constant and unwavering regardless of how the individuals in that family (humans) act and behave. This quality is the same that we shud adopt towards our own family: gurmuiK inbhY sprvwir ] In the midst of his family, the Gurmukh lives a spiritual life. igrhI mih sdw hir jn audwsI igAwn qq bIcwrI ] Immersed in family life, the Lord's humble servant ever remains detached; he reflects upon the essence of spiritual wisdom. Our focus and attachment should be only to waheguru, not the earthly family. However this does not mean we should neglect our duties and responsiblities. God as blessed us with this structure of family, so that we can all live, grow and care for one another in an organized, civilized and respectful manner. A community without structure lead to chaos. In such an atmosphre, people start and end relationships as they choose to suit their personal emotinal, physical needs with little or no regards of the effects of their actions on the ppl around them. And this in turn brings forth, pain, hardships, sorrows, grief all of which can be avoided if we attune ourselves to Gurmat, and live a life follwing the example of God. inq pRiqpwrY bwp jYsy mweI ]1]He always cherishes them, like their father and mother. Apuny jIA jMq pRiqpwry ] He cherishes all His beings and creatures, ijau bwirk mwqw sMmwry ] as the mother cares for her children. And the institution of marriage goes hand in hand with family. If we can not committ ourselves to a single person, to live, eat, breathe, sleep alongside a single partner and instead need the feel to keep our "options open", that this marriage committment will hamper our indiviudal freedom and happiness how then can we ever expect to be able to commit ourslevs to God? If we live a life opposed to the principles and values of Gods own life how can we expect Him to embrace us with open arms? Sikhi is not a religion, it is a lifestyle, a set of teachings and guidance which enlighten one about Gods nature so that we can realize Him. Gurmat is not simply a set of principles to be read and debated in an academic forum but to be applied wholeheartedly into every step of ones life. For this we have to look no further than the lifes of our Gurus themselves. Apart from Guru Har Krishan Ji (whose mortal life was only till 8) EVERY guru upheld the grehsti jeevan to the fullest. They each married, had children and fullfileld their responsiblities as father, husband etc. while at the same time fearlessly and relentlessly propogating the message of Truth, Love and Equality. Every aspect of our own life, has a direct relation and extension to our relationship with Waheguru. God, in His infinite wisdom and grace, has blessed us with such a world, such a life, that worshiping, and devoting ourseleves to Him becomes effortless if we merely take the time to understand the teahings of Gurmat. At the very top, we all belong to one family, that of humanity, with God our father-mother. Maanis Ki jaat subay ek paichanboh Secondly we belong to the subfamily of the Khalsa Panth, of whom the Guru is our guide: guru myrI vrqix guru prvwru ] The Guru is my way of life; the Guru is my family And finally, at the smallest subgropuing we each belong to individual families in our household. Each is an extention of the next level. To help us understand and become aware of the highest and most complex level, i.e. of entire humanity, we need to be first able to adopt the understanding of family at the smallest level and then work our way up. This in turn makes it easier. I hope this helps clear up the importance of family in sikhi for you. I know i may not have directly answered the concept of marriage as well as i would have liked to, but i hope u do understand that marriage is the bedrock of family, without which the structure of family crumbles. If time permits, i shall post another reply focused moreso on marriage. Fateh

Fateh, This is not aimed at anyone directly, but i felt the need to raise a few important points in gereral regarding the discussion and study of other faiths. Everyone has a right to practice a way of life of their own choosing so long as it does not cause harm, or inflict damage on anothers freedom of choice. If someone feels that the practice of "sant mat" is the only route that they can realize God, then by all means they are entitled to pursue that path as is anyone else who agrees with them and wishes to do so. We should not lower our discussion to the point of ridiculing or attacking anothers beliefs, let us develop respect and tolerance for all faiths which are focused to uniting one to God. For this was the basis that nearly 350 years ago Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji made the supreme sacrifice, freedom of choice/religion. HOWEVER, at the same time, it is the duty of every Sikh to share and defend the Truth, which is the message of Guru Nanak. If someone has a difference of opinon we should respect and listen to them, but at the same time we should not hesitate to share the opinion of Gurmat on that topic. We as Sikhs have a responsibility to share what Guru Nanak has to say, regardless what the subject may be. I am not extremely familiar with this particular Sant Mat talked of on the website, wether it is a new form or division, or just a branch of the more general sant samaj movement which is growing every day in punjab. Regardless after going thru their website, there were w few things which stood out, and i thought i should share with the sangat. There is nothing wrong with looking at these websites and studying them, for it raises our understanding and awareness of others around us, and any knowledge which helps us understand our fellow human citizens better, is worthy knowledge. But amidst fears that many of u may mistakenly misinterpret this 'sant mat' movement i feel obliged to share you with a very crucial point about their teachings which if overlooked by the sangat can cause us great harm. And that is the following exerpt made by one of the founders of this movement, "Sant" Kirpal Singh: "The scriptual texts give us, at best, some account of the Path so far as it can be put into imperfect words, but cannot take us to the Path nor can they guide us on the Path." The Crown of Life, Sant Kirpal Singh This is in direct contradiction to the very essence of Sikhi. The life of a Sikhi Jeevan is based on the fundamental principle that the Guru is the only teacher and guide that a Sikh shall follow on his or her journey to Akaal Purakh. And our guru is none other than Sri GUru Granth Sahib Ji, as is present amongst us in the form of shabad gurbani. If we are to accept the above teachings of "Sant" Kirpal Singh than our Guru is nothing more than another empty scrptual text with only limited worth and use. It becomes something that is incomplete on its own and incapable of carrying us to our Lord Master. Surely even the novice to Sikhism will realize that this is completely contrary to the teachings of Guru Nanak. Our guru has no limits, the gurbani, as blessed to us by our Gurus, is from Waheguru Himself and complete on its own. It is lacking nothing, rather it is us who are lacking something. Namely an effort to read and understand the teachings of Gurbani and realize that we need nothing else outside of our Guru to show us the path. So when perusing websites, or organizations, faiths, societies etc as the one shown here, be careful about their fundamental beliefs and take the time to have enough understanding about Sikhi yourself so that you are able to properly discern any beliefs they may have which are contrary to Gurmat and not accidentaly end up supporting a cause which speaks against the teachings of Gurbani. Fateh

Fateh, i am curious as to why u feel the need to write the heading "warning to sangat" when making mention of Gurbakkhsh Singh KalaAfghana and any possible connection Prof Inder Singh might have to him..please explain

Dont want to keep harpin on the same issue over n over. But i think the best remark in regards to being vegetarianism is that below: If God is accepting of it, who are we to overide His opinion and impose our own views. Living the Sikhi lifestyle, tho probably the simplest if looked from a pragmatic standpoint, it can become confusing and difficult to follow if one is not familiar and knowledgable of its underlying philosophy. Tho this example is rather simple, and not completely absolute, i think remembering the following concepts will help guide us, and answer our questions bout how and how not a Sikh should live his life. The life of a Sikh has 2 components: spiritual and temporal. SPiritual is that to do directly with aatmic devlopment and function and temporal with social development and function. And yes the two cannot be divided and go hand in hand as demonstrated by our Gurus. The dietary needs for our spiritual growth never change, they are the same. And the source for this spiritual foodstuff is Naam, And where do we get thsi Naam? From the storehouse of aatmic nutrients known as Guru Granth Sahib. Now for the temporal, or social and earthly function we also have needs to surive and nourish its growth and development. And yes, ultimately its source is Gurbani as well, and always will be. However the Gurus in their infinite wisdom and foresight knew, that mans social environment and structure is constantly changing. Our soul is timeless and formless and hence never change, but our envirionment isnt. Its always changing, with new technological developments in electronics, agriculture, medicinal treatments, food etc.. the list is endless. And gurbani does not prohibit these changes, it supports them. Gurbani also doesnt tell us what change to accept or not via a lengthy list. What it does is provide a SIkh with a strong moral framework to apply every new change or devlopment to and make his or her decision personally according to that mutt which the Guru has put into our head, ie gurmat. And bieng social beings, who must engage in social activites daily, we also are in need of a framework to help guide us with these as well, jus as bani provides us with a framework for our mind. And recognizing this need, the Guru adopted the ingenious institution of Guru Panth. The Khalsa Panth, when working under the guidance and moral framework of Guru Granth, would provide the guidance and decisions in matters of daily social living. This is to be taken in the same level of respect and obediance as a hukamnama from gurbani, and that is why during puratan times the collective decision of the Panth,under gurbani's roshni, was also known as a gurmatta. And for us this social framework, has been provided to and is available in the form of the Sikh Rehat Maryada. So if we have any question regarding oru daily life, let us not bikcer and argue amonst ourselves as opponents, but take our questions and look for an answer in the Sikh Rehat Maryada. Dont treat it as a mere paper document, but a sincere, honest social framework provided by the collective Guru Panth for the beneift and service of each and every Sikh. And when we all start to follow on Rehat Maryada, which in turn is based on the Rehat of Guru Granth, how will we ever disagree or argue endlessly on any topic? Rather it will become a forum for EXCHANGE and TEACHING of the sole opinion and knwoledge of Gurbani, which is what it should be.

One thing that ive noticed being said over and over again, in almost every thread regardless of the thread topic, is the mention that we shouldn't do nindha (slander). Whenever someone makes a comment which is critical of somone or points to someones mistakes its seems theres an instant tendency to use the defense of 'no nindha please.' But have we ever paused to think what nindha actually means? No doubt, mention of this word is made repeatedly in Gurbani but what is the Guru referring to when he tells us to refrain from nindha? I am sure many of you are familiar with countless pungtees from gurbani making mention of the fact that a Sikh should always refrain from nindha. As an example, inMdw krdw pic muAw ivic dyhI BKY ] Slandering others, he wastes away and dies; within his body, he burns No one will disagree that doing nindha of anyone, regardless of how high or low their spiritual state is wrong. Not only does it cause hurt and inflict pain on the person you're saying it to, it also gives birth to equally negative effects on the person doing the nindha as well. Nindha stems forth in one's mind when there is such a strong level of disagreement, opposition,or disapproval of the other person that the person loses control of their emotions. His mind fills with frustration and anger and is ulitmately vented in the form of verbal slander, or nindha, towards the other. This anger becomes a cancerous growth in ones mind and leads to his own destruction. inMdw kir kir bhu Bwru auTwvY ibnu mjUrI Bwru phucwvixAw ]4] By continually slandering others, they carry a terrible load, and they carry the loads of others for nothing. pr inMdw pr mlu muK suDI Agin k®oDu cMfwlu ] Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium. So yes nindha is bad and should always be avoided, this no one will disagree with. But what exactly is nindha? Most of us will quickly answer that nindha is when you say something bad about someone. When you keep criticizing them, pointing out their mistakes, saying they're wrong, etc. This is only partially true. To help us get a greater understanding let us look at a reference to nindha made in sukhmani sahib, imiQAw sRvn pr inMdw sunih ] False are the ears which listen to the slander of others The key word in this line is mithaya, or false. But how can our ears be called false? They're a part of our body, something that is real, that we can see, and touch. So why is the Guru calling the ears false? They are called false because of what we are using them for. In other words, we are using them for the practice of falehood, lies and thus these ears become 'false' as well. kUVu kmwvY kUVu aucrY kUiV ligAw kUVu hoie ] They practice falsehood and they speak falsehood; attached to falsehood, they become false. When our mind is practicing falsehoods and not attached to the Truth, then regardless of what actions we perfom, be it talking, listening, sewa, even doing paath, they all become false and meaningless. so JUTw jo JUTy lwgY JUTy krm kmweI ] One who is attached to falsehood is false; false are the deeds he does. Now the 2nd point to consider from the above line is that mithaya and nindha are mentioned in the same line and as stated by the other two lines above, only when something is attached to and practicing falsehood can we call it false. Hence, if ears are used to listen to nindha and become false, then nindha itself must be false. Therefore we cant label something simply because what is being said by someone consits of calling someone's actions wrong, bad, there has to also be an element of falsehood to what is being said by that person. So how do we know that? Consider the example of Guru Nanak himself: If we create some rumour, gossip or false story about someone to degrade them and belittle their name that is what is referred to as nindha. To openly speak the truth is never nindha. During the oppressive regime of Babar, Guru Nanak openly called him a tyrant to his face. No one can deny that Guru Nanak was being critical and calling Babar’s actions wrong and bad but does this imply that Guru Nanak was doing nindha of Babar? Guru Ji never fell victim to taking pity on Babar. He was never afraid nor hesitated to speak the truth to Babar therefore his actions can never be called doing nindha. Rather: sc kI bwxI nwnku AwKY scu suxwiesI sc kI bylw ]2]3]5] Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. To speak the truth openly and at all times is never nindha. But when one tells lies or criticizes someone with the intent to defame, insult or harm them that is always known as nindha. Nindha is the practice of falsehood, and that is why the Guru repeatedly tells us to abstain from doing anyones nindha: myry mn qij inMdw haumY AhMkwru ] O my mind, give up slander, egotism and arrogance. However, before quickly jump to the opposite side of the fence and say that instead of doing nidha, we should always talk good and praise others, the Guru has a stern warning: AkQ kQw vIcwr kY ausqq inµdw vrj rhwey] The Sikhs ponder on the words of the Ineffable, and abstain from praise and blame. At first glance this may seem odd. Its understandable what we shudnt talk nindha, always saying oh that person did this or that, or that action of that person was completely wrong and he shud behave like this instead (unless of course as above, we are speaking the Truth), but why shud we refarin from praise. We always hear recounts and stories of how so and so did soooo much parchar, or blessed so many thousands of people with the dhaat of Amrit, helped so many people get off drugs and alcohol etc., so why is the Guru telling us that we shudnt speak even like that? How is that wrong and against Sikhi? Because the two are intertwined. When we do nindha of someone, we are doing it to defame them, belittle them in other peoples eyes and by doing so make ourselves or someone else appear better. In the same way when we praise someone, we are making that person seem more great and wonderous than another. In both cases there is a comparison, with the end result that one is better than the other. In addition there are those who speak praise of others only cuz they wanna gain somethin in return. To get on someone's good side, that if i speak and say nice things bout that person, i'll be rewarded. Be it in the form of wealth, increased respect and social status, or even to the extent that he'll give his bakshashk to me which will help me get closer to God and be my salvation. Thus the praise too is false: inMdw icMdw krih prweI JUTI lwieqbwrI ] You slander, and then praise others; you indulge in lies and gossip. Regardless of why we praise someone, be it out of respect and admiration as in the first example or out of some alterior selfish gain as in the 2nd example, both are false, and wrong and shud be avoided. And the Guru is telling us exactly this! ausqiq inMdw doaU iqAwgY KojY pdu inrbwnw ] Renounce both praise and blame; seek instead the state of Nirvaanaa. jn nwnk iehu Kylu kTnu hY iknhUM gurmuiK jwnw ]2]1] O servant Nanak, this is such a difficult game; only a few Gurmukhs understand it! Realizing such fine intricacies of human nature and being able to control them is extremely hard. That is why so few are ever able to reach that high state of brahm gyani. But there is a way, only one way and that is by reading, understanding and following the teachings of gurbani: ausqiq inMdw guir sm jwxweI iesu jug mih lwhw hir jip lY jwie ]1] The Guru has inspired me to realize, that praise and slander are one and the same; in this world, the profit is obtained by chanting the Name of the Lord. Understanding the message of our Guru is the key to finding tru happiness, cuz having, bowing and listening to the Guru is not enuff. The guru alone cannot do anythin unless we are willin to listen AND UNDERSTAND, then follow what he is telling us. If we dont understand gurbani, and instead get caught up with our own personal views, practices and daily efforts which we feel or have been taught by others will bring us closer to God then the end result of all of that will be only one thing: ibnu bUJy imiQAw sB Bey ] Without understanding, everything is false. Our lives will become completely false. And no matter how much we debate, argue, or listen to others, nothig in our lives will ever change. So let us take the time to read and understand gurbani, and make that the basis for everythin in our life.

This thread is not aimed as a criticism or attack on any particular person. Rather i hope it will be a general discussion of the word Sant, and its application as illustrated in Gurbani vs. its application and use as seen today in the Sikh community. The following is an article i found on the net, written by another author, which brought up some interesting points. The views below are not entirely mine, and im not telling anyone that the below view is 100%correct and u shud follow it blindly and neither am i saying its completel wrong. It wud be negligence on my part to simply quote those parts of the below essay which suited my own beliefs or views so therefore i have posted the article in its entirety. Please have a read and form ur own opinion. The goal is to raise an atmosphere of self-questioning, reflection and understanding of sikhi sidhaant. I apologize in advance, if anythin in the below article is found offensive by anyone. Enjoy DISTURBING MIS-USE OF THE WORD "SANT" ... (By Navjot Singh) sMqn mo kau hir mwrig pwieAw ] The Saints have set me upon the Lord's Path. swD ik®pwil hir sMig igJwieAw ] By the Grace of the Holy Saint, I have been attuned to the Lord. hir hmrw hm hir ky dwsy nwnk sbdu gurU scu dInw jIau ]4]14]21] The Lord is mine, and I am the slave of the Lord. O Nanak, the Guru has blessed me with the True Word of the Shabad. sMq ik®pw qy imty moh Brm ] By the kind Mercy of the Saints, emotional attachment and doubt are removed. swD ryx mjn siB Drm ] Taking a bath in the dust of the feet of the Holy - this is true Dharmic faith imty AMdyisAw hW ] His anxieties are removed sMq aupdyisAw myry mnw ]1] by the Teachings of the Saints, O my mind jy vf Bwg hovih muiK msqik hir rwm jnw Bytwie ] If someone has supremely high destiny written on his forehead, the Lord leads him to meet the humble servants of the Lord. drsnu sMq dyhu kir ikrpw sBu dwldu duKu lih jwie ]2] Be merciful, and grant me the Blessed Vision of the Saints' Darshan, which shall rid me of all poverty and pain. In all of the above GurbaNNi verses, the word "Sant" or "Saadh" is meant only for Guru Sahib Ji. In fact in all of Gurbani whenever the word "Sant" is used in the singular form, it is meant only for Guru Sahib. In the plural form, it is meant for all GurSikhs in general, but never for an individual. These interpretations are accepted by all prominent Scholars of the Khalsa Panth, but then why is this word, "Sant", so widely mis-used ? Even Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (as he should be called) used to say that he was not a "Sant", and people were always pasting this title on him. The word that was only to be used for Guru Sahib in the singular form, and for all GurSikhs in the plural form, has now become a TITLE (Khittab) that has not only lost its original meaning, but has brought on many of the ills into our community. In August edition of "Sura" magazine a brief article on this subject by Giani Gurditt Singh Ji (Singh Sabha) was printed. Appropriately it was titled : "Panthak Eakta Day JaaRRi(n) Paleetay". It criticized the mis-use of this word, and the dangers to Panthic Unity with its mis-use. Giani Ji, mentioned that the mis-use of this word started in the last century when people began to refer to the respectable Baba Attar Singh Ji (Mastuanna) as "Sant Ji", "Sant Ji Maharaj", and so on. Thereafter, to most of the Sikh public, he was known as "Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuannaywale." The mis-use of this word quickly spread throughout the Panth, unfortunately, now it is not too uncommon to see a so-called "Sant" in every village in Punjab. The illiterate, rural Sikhs, venerate these individuals to the point of GuruShip. In actuality, it can be said that these individuals, are not Sikhs (disciples) of Guru Granth Sahib, but of these so-called "Sants." In Dasam Patshah's Bani there is a verse describing such a situation : "Ghar(i) Ghar(i) Hoey B'Hayngey Rama" Bhai Randhir Singh, a revolutionary freedom fighter and mystical theologian, who was one of the only individuals to receive HukamNamahs from all (then) four Takahts was staunchly against the mis-use of the word "Sant.", and refused to be called a Sant throughout his life. In his book titled "Sant Padd NirNNay" he dwells into detail, the use of words like Sant, Saaadh, Sadhoo, and Bhagat, in Gurbani, and their proper interpretation. Referring to the "Sant" situation, Bhai Sahib states: "..Guru Panth da eh Lazzmi Faraz hai Ki Ohna Noo(n) Is Sant-Dumbtta di Bimmaree [disease] toa(n) HuNN Toa(n) Aroagatt [cure] Keeta Javay" Yes this has become a disease that has infested almost all the Jathaybandis of our Panth, and we must rid the Panth of this disease, otherwise it will rot us all.. Looking a little deeper into such Jathaybandies, one finds that along with the title SANT, a so-called "Gaddee" is passed on from "Sant" to "Sant", just as the Kookays, and the Nirankaris passed on their "GuruShip" to their successors. IS THIS GURMAT, OR PURE BRAHMANISM AT ITS PEAK !!!! It is as Guru Sahib said : "Bipran Ki Reet" If we look closely at the derays of these "Sants" we will not be surprised to see many worthless rituals and practices borrowed from Nirmalas and Hindu ascetics There exists an "elitist" organization called the "Sant-Smaj", reportedly , it comprises of dozens and dozens of these so-called "Sants." The Panth needs to be more vigilant about the motives of such organizations. What is their purpose in the Panth, why are they trying to validate their existence as "Sants" ? Does an individual in the Sikh Panth have the right to hold this TITLE ? Absolutely not, according to GurbaNNi all GurSikhs are equal, no one is higher or lower. There are no ranks in the Panth. We are all Bhais, with equal status and respect for all. Have we ever thought : Who gave them the "privilege" to be called "Sants" ? What is their relationship to their chalays, as compared to Guru Sahib and "normal" GurSikhs? Why is there a need for them to be called a "Sant" ? Why do so many of them have links to GOI politicians ? Are they spiritually higher than GurSikhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji, Baba Ajit Singh Ji, Baba Jujhar Singh Ji, Baba Fateh Singh Ji, Baba Joravar Singh Ji, Bhai Nand Singh Ji, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Baba Deep Singh Ji, and Akali Phula Singh Ji ? Why has this word been so much mis-used ? When will we put a stop to its mis-use ? These are important questions that we in the Panth will eventually have to answer. It is sad to see GurSikhs who once believed in non other than Guru Granth Sahib, start chanting "Sant Ji Maharaj", "Mahapurakh, BrahmGyani this and that" all day and night after having the "Sangat" of such individuals. As GurSikhs we are told that we must not do Ustat or Nindiya of anyone. The only Ustat we should do is of Akal Purakh Sahib and Guru Sahib Ji. Those individuals, who day and night praise these so-called "Sants", are going against the Guru's Hukams. Rather than bringing the public closer to Guru Sahib these "Sants" have done just the opposite. Those poor individuals who become their followers start having more faith in these "Sants" than in Guru Sahib. These "Sants" not only know that this is happening but encourage it, this is very disturbing. There is a verse in Asa-Di-// that describes the fate of individuals who challenge the Guru's Timeless Authority : KsmY kry brwbrI iPir gYriq AMdir pwie ] But if he claims to be equal to his Master, he earns his Master's displeasure. ] As stated before many of these "Sants" have the auspicious of GOI, we as Sikhs have a right to question these individuals and their followers as to why they are called "Sants", Sikh organizations, Gurdwaras, and the general public, should openly boycott them and challenge their fake TITLES. Remember the issue hear is not necessarily the individuals themselves, but the mis-use of the word "SANT." Not only is its mis-use disturbing to our society, but it is entirely against GURMAT.

You have raised some excellent questions in your posts. I shall try to answer them as best as possible. We often hear everyone saying that there was one 'jot' in all the gurus. But what does this actually mean? Most would agree that jot= light, which is a euphemism for Divine Light within each of us, i.e. our soul. But if every person has souls how can two people have the same soul? In order to answer this, we have to understand what actually is that entity we refer as soul? The answer to this, as with any question, can be found in very opening pages of Guru Granth Sahib in the bani of Jap Ji sahib. There is One, who is the Supreme Creator and He permeates in every drop of His Creation. (Ik Onkaar, Kurta Purakh). It is His presence within us which is our actual soul, or the Jot within us. Taken in another analogy, our soul is merely a single ray of light, amongst countless rays all emanating from One source, the sun (God). Now if someone were to ask you to separate one ray of sunlight from another, lock it up in a jar isolated from the rest of the sunlight obviously it is impossible. Similarly, the jot within each of us, are all connected to its source, Waheguru, and cannot be separated from Him. But it is a weakness of human nature that all our perception and understanding of things is based on physical parameters. We believe, or comprehend only what we can see, hear, or feel with our limited human senses. It is because of this primitive thinking that we come under the false impression that our souls, are all neatly divided up and packed separately in separate human bodies, each distinct and isolated from the rest. But the Guru tells us that is not so. The truth is that we all belong to one SuperSoul, God, and are thus are all part of that One, we jus fail to realize it. That is why, when using the example of husband and wife (to personify our union with God) the Guru stated the following: Dn ipru eyih n AwKIAin bhin iekTy hoie ] They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. eyk joiq duie mUrqI Dn ipru khIAY soie ]3] They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. It is not our bodies which become one, but our soul, ie. our thinking, our actions, our habits, our beliefs. Anything in the physical realm can never become one. Matter cannot be merged, sure it can be mixed and put together but the molecular, atomic structure within it is still distinct and separate even if we cannot see it. But our souls do not fall under the restraints of physicality. Our souls, like the Formless, Immortal Lord ( akaal moorat) are without any structure or form. That is why when we come to the topic of the Gurus, we become confused as to how cud they be one, yet have different bodies. Cuz it was not their bodies which merged but their souls. joiq Ehw jugiq swie sih kwieAw Pyir pltIAY ] They shared the One Light and the same way; the King just changed His body. And how did this merging of the souls come about? Thru the gyaan, or knowledge obtained thru the shabad guru. By the teachings, gyaan, imparted upon each successive individual mind by the preceding they came to the realization that the Divine Light vibrating within them the same. It was the One God who resided within each of them, regardless how different their outward physical appearance was. This process was started with Guru Nanak, after becoming enlightend and aware of this One God residing in all that he passed on this knowledge to Bhai Lehna. nwnik rwju clwieAw scu kotu sqwxI nIv dY ] Nanak established the kingdom; He built the true fortress on the strongest foundations. lhxy DirEnu Cqu isir kir isPqI AMimRqu pIvdY ] He installed the royal canopy over Lehna's head; chanting the Lord's Praises, He drank in the Ambrosial Nectar. miq gur Awqm dyv dI KVig joir prwkuie jIA dY ] The Guru implanted the almighty sword of the Teachings to illuminate his soul It was after gaining this knowledge and understanding, after coming to this realization that Bhai Lehna became Guru Angad. This is the point that their jots became one. It doesn’t mean that the jot passed thru Guru Nanak’s body like some spirit or special force and entered Guru Angad. Rather it was a mental realization, the spiritual state where the person became fully aware of Gods presence all around them, and within them, and thus became “one with Him”, and in doing so became one with the preivous guru for they were one with God already. nwnku kwieAw pltu kir mil qKqu bYTw sY fwlI ] Nanak merely changed his body; He still sits on the throne, with hundreds of branches reaching out. It was this spiritual enlightenment, which is contained in the shabad guru, gurbani, which came to vibrate in the minds of the disciple and hence the disciple had the same enlightenment as the previous guru and there was no difference between them anymore. And this process continued on with every successive Guru. nwnku qU lhxw qUhY guru Amru qU vIcwirAw ] You are Nanak, You are Angad, and You are Amar Daas; so do I recognize You. The Sikhs of that time fully understood this concept, and that is why this tukh of theirs was included in Guru Granth Sahib. Unfortunately, because many of us lack the proper and indepth knowledge and understanding of gurbani that we get confused and fail to realize these concepts. But that is why the Guru blessed with the gift of Shabad, to help answer these questions so that we too, by the grace of Waheguru, can come to the same realization and understanding that the Gurus themselves came too.

I recently forwarded a poem off this forum to some poeple and one of them replied back with some questions relating to it. I thought id share my reply to this person's questions, with the sangat here in hopes that if someone else has similar questions in their mind, that they may be able to find some answers. Controlling our emotions is obviously an extremly broad topic, covered at great lengths in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. There are many reasons behind why we feel and react as we do and equally many approaches to how we can help bring them under control and not become subordinate to them. So i encourage everyone to think of situations where they've become upset, angry, frustrated, sad etc and what coping strategies helped them deal with it. Mine is only a simple and limited aproach on this matter, taken under the guidance of Gurbani as always, and im sure the sangat as a collective body can provide much more. May Waheguru bless us all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because HE is. When you prepare a meal... prepare it as if God were going to be sitting at your table. Because He is. When you work... work as if God will be your customer. Because He is. When you clean your house... clean it as if God were going to be your special guest. And when you speak with another... speak as if you were speaking with God. Because you are. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think what you just sent sums up ething but the thing is what do u do when somebody gets u angry or upset how do u control those actions without upsetting urself or the other person? It is very hard to resist our natural tendency to get upset or angry by the words or actions of someone else. The reason we get upset is that we are still living in this material world--meaning we are living a physical existence. We focus our own happiness with the words we hear, things we see, i.e. all physical entities and the Guru has told us that these are all false. vyKxu sunxw JUTu hY muiK JUTw Awlwau ]Seeing and hearing is false, if one speaks lies So if someone speaks foul words to us, or does somethin which is unkind to us we feel hurt and get upset. But all these actions and words are false, and because we have become attached to falsehood we expereince the pain and suffering associated with it. We expect to be treated in a certain way by everybody in our life be it family, friends, spouse etc and when they behave in a way different than what we think they should have we become angry and frustrated. But why? The guru has told us repeatedly that all these relationships are false and only temporary so why get attached to them and become emotinal slaved by these relationships: jo dIsY so clsI kUVw mohu n vyKu ] Whatever is seen shall pass away. So do not be attached to this false show. vwt vtwaU AwieAw inq cldw swQu dyKu ]2] Like a traveller in his travels, you have come. Behold the caravan leaving each day. people come and go everyday in our lives, yet we care more bout what they think about us, how they treat us, what they say to us than what God thinks, says or behaves with us, and yet God is the only one who is ALWAYS with us thru thick and thin from begining to end. That is why Guru Nanak upon realizing this said: ausqiq inMdw nwnk jI mY hB v\weI CoiVAw hBu ikJu iqAwgI ] I have totally discarded praise and slander, O Nanak; I have forsaken and abandoned everything. hBy swk kUVwvy ifTy qau plY qYfY lwgI ]1] I have seen that all relationships are false, and so I have grasped hold of the hem of Your robe, Lord. Focus your mind only on the Lord and let your relationship with Him be the only thing which matters in this world. Cuz He NEVER disappoints. People can disapoint us, get us upset, be mean or rude to us but not God. iqRsnw mwieAw mohxI suq bMDp Gr nwir ] The enticing desire for Maya leads people to become emotionally attached to their children, relatives, households and spouses. Din jobin jgu TigAw lib loiB AhMkwir ] The world is deceived and plundered by riches, youth, greed and egotism. moh TgaulI hau mueI sw vrqY sMswir ]1] The drug of emotional attachment has destroyed me, as it has destroyed the whole world. Because of this attachment we get hurt, angry, upset over n over again. And until we are able to rid ourselves of this attachment we will keep on expereinceing these negative emotions. Until we come to the realiztion that: myry pRIqmw mY quJ ibnu Avru n koie ] O my Beloved, I have no one except You. mY quJ ibnu Avru n BwveI qUM Bwvih suKu hoie ]1] rhwau ] Without You, nothing else pleases me. Loving You, I am at peace. nwmu swlwhI rMg isau gur kY sbid sMqoKu ] I sing the Praises of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, with love; I am content with the Word of the Guru's Shabad. When we understand and follow this then and only then will we find eternal happiness and bliss. We will finally become content. cuz we'll not only know and believe but we will also feel that God is with us 24/7 by our side and that if He is with us at all tiems, how can anyone cause us harm? Sure they may harm us physically but our soul will be joined with God and no one will ever be able to cause any harm, hurt or pain to our soul. That is why at that stage we will not see any differecen between pleasure and pain, as we used to, cuz then everywhere we look we will see and hear God, and God has nothing but love for us. jy suKu dyih q quJih ArwDI duiK BI quJY iDAweI ]2] If You will bless me with happiness, then I will worship and adore You. Even in pain, I will meditate on You. jy BuK dyih q ieq hI rwjw duK ivic sUK mnweI ]3] Even if You give me hunger, I will still feel satisfied; I am joyful, even in the midst of sorrow. qnu mnu kwit kwit sBu ArpI ivic AgnI Awpu jlweI ]4] I would cut my mind and body apart into pieces, and offer them all to You; I would burn myself in fire. pKw PyrI pwxI Fovw jo dyvih so KweI ]5] I wave the fan over You, and carry water for You; whatever You give me, I take. nwnku grIbu Fih pieAw duAwrY hir myil lYhu vifAweI ]6] Poor Nanak has fallen at the Lord's Door; please, O Lord, unite me with Yourself, by Your Glorious Greatness. AKI kwiF DrI crxw qil sB DrqI iPir mq pweI ]7] Taking out my eyes, I place them at Your Feet; after travelling over the entire earth, I have come to understand this. jy pwis bhwlih qw quJih ArwDI jy mwir kFih BI iDAweI ]8] If You seat me near You, then I worship and adore You. Even if You beat me and drive me out, I will still meditate on You. jy loku slwhy qw qyrI aupmw jy inMdY q Coif n jweI ]9] If people praise me, the praise is Yours. Even if they slander me, I will not leave You. jy quDu vil rhY qw koeI ikhu AwKau quDu ivsirAY mir jweI ]10] If You are on my side, then anyone can say anything. But if I were to forget You, then I would die And then no matter what somoene says to us, or behaves with us, we will not get upset or angry, for we will feel only the Love of God even in them, and hence how will we be able to show anythin but Love back to that person where God resides. These are the steps we must take, and yes they are very dificult to achieve but not impossible. If we keep our focus and faith in Waheguru, and follow the teachings of our Guru then by the grace of God we shall reach this stage and find permanent happiness. :doh:

quote=sureal69,Aug 16 2005, 07:47 AM] The second point which I do disagree with you on is, Gurbani was never intended to the word of God. Everyone seems to often refer to the Guru's as if they were godlike or god. As I remember it, they said they were inspired by their love for god or his love for us. I do not remember but maybe I was asleep on the day at the Gurudwara when they covered the fact that the Guru's said god spoke to them. Very important difference. Most other religions dervie their authority from the fact that "God Spoke to Me". Sikhism says that we have written these words out of our love for god and inspired by not him but our love for him. Please clarify. Later. 114476[/snapback] Thank you for sharing ur points and questions with me. I will do my best to anwer them. There are a number of points u bring up in ur reply which i wud like to address. The first is that u sugget that " Gurbani was never intended to be the word of God". I would completely disagree with that claim. If Gurbani is not the Word of God, then that is tatamount to suggest that it is like any other piece of literary prose conceived, written and arrange my mere ordinary mortals. And if such is the case then why shud one place any greater level of reverance or faith in these words if they are merely of human origin? Why bow every day before writings if they are not from God himself? Cus that wud mean we are bowing before soemthing material, and the Guru were strict opponents of bowing before any animate or inanimate object other then the Shabad Guru? And if these writing are merely written from love and not truly inspired by God, or spoken unto the Gurus by God, then why would the 7th Guru vehmently oppose and chastisize his own son for attempting to alter a mere few words of Gurbani? Was the Guru so full of ego that he did not want someone to change his writings? The answer to this question is NO. It was not ego which drove the Guru to take this action but the fact that the Gurbani which his son tried to change for personal gain was the actual word of Waheguru. That is why the Guru took this assault on Gurbani so seriously. We must understand this concept of The Word, in order to appreciate the fact that the origin and source of Gurbani is God himself, and not some love, or inspiration for Him. The birth or creation of the Universe originated from The Word (or kvwau). This is the absolute decision and message of Gurmat, as stated in the Bani. kIqw pswau eyko kvwau ] You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word! Such and enormous creation from a single word; how powerful and commanding must that word be! One can not even begin to fathom how powerful and potent the Creator of that word must be then, by whose single word such an immense creation was born. In making this creation however, the Creator put forth a very firm and unchangeable injunction/rule. To help us understand this injunction let us look at an example first. There are numerous factories, plants which are making countless objects for our varied usage. Cars, stereos, tv’s, computers, houses etc. However, regardless what the item may be, amongst all the manufacturers there is a single common criterion behind the items’ usage. That if for some reason there ever appears a defect or problem with the item then only use the same parts/material as indicated by the manufacturer. Another words only use the same material as used before during the original manufacturing or else you are not only unlikely to properly repair the item but also pose the risk of further damaging the item. For instance, consider for a moment if one were to have a driveway, wall or even house built of concrete and cement. And that for some unforeseen reason, accident, or tornado, earthquake or simply overuse there was to appear a crack or break in that wall or driveway. Then would you be able to adequately repair that damage with dirt? Or sand? Or wood? And if u did manage to temporarily repair it via one of these alternate methods, would that material provide the same strength and resilience as the originally used cement and concrete? No, of course. You would have to use concrete and cement again in order to repair it to its original state and minimize and future potential breakdown. Similarly, when the wonderful Creator shaped this uniform he kept this concept in mind. That this world came to be from kvwau. From the Word, the Voice of God. And that as time passes, this world and the numerous beings living within it will be affected by the changing conditions and environments. This is unavoidable. There will always be times of difficulties, and situations will arise will create hardships, anxiety and problems, all with the potential to have deleterious effects on the psyche of man, so how is it possible to prevent these harmful effects from reaching mans mind? And if they do, how can they be removed and thus make mans mind pure again? God in His infinite wisdom thus decided that in order to keep this world perfect and always full of energy and flourishing I will provide this world (i.e. mankind) with the same material from which it was manufactured. It should be noted here that any company which creates products but then decides not to offer any spare parts or servicing for that product, then almost no person will end up buying that product. All products are bound to falter and break down at some point but if the manufacturer isn’t even willing to provide any warranty or at least some spare parts for replacement then why would anyone even consider buying such a risk laden product? And if he attempts to get it repaired with different parts of an alternate manufacturer than there is no guarantee of success. In fact, the manufacturers go so far as to accompany every product with a warning that if you make any attempt to repair this product with non-genuine parts or materials then we are not responsible for any damage caused. We only guarantee the materials and repair done by own manufacturing plant. In the same way, Waheguru created authorized repair centers for his Creation. That if any problems or troubles arose in his Creation they could come to these authorized centers and receive the original manufacturer’s parts, i.e. His Word. And this part is essential for His Creation to keep working in perfect fashion. jY qin bwxI ivsir jwie ] That body, which forgets the Word of the Guru's Bani, ijau pkw rogI ivllwie ]1] cries out in pain, like a chronic patient And this word of the Gurus bani is not something the Guru conjured up on his own, or soemthin written from some love for God. Rather it is exactly as God himself spoke to the Guru and instructed him to share wiht the people. jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ] As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo sc kI bwxI nwnku AwKY scu suxwiesI sc kI bylw ]2]3]5] Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. The Guru goes on to tell us, that these words are not of my own: hau Awphu boil n jwxdw mY kihAw sBu hukmwau jIau ] By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands. There is no self-vested interested or alterior motive behind these words. There is no nklI unauthorized parts anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. The second point i wud like to discuss is the idea that the Gurus were Godlike or God. Again there is an important concept to understand behind this in order for us to appreciate which claim is true and which is false. But as i have to get going now, i will try n cover this topic later. Hope, the above helps clarify what u were asking bout. Fateh

Fateh, i jus came back onto the forum after a 1month hiatus, and just came across this thread today...seeing how long its become, dont know if anyone is still even readin it but i'll do my part n share my two cents worth I think the whole confusion as to who is a sikh or who isnt, is one that has been goin on since the beginning of the origins of sikhi, and the gurus were cognisant of this fact, and that this question is one that wud be continued to be asked, and taken advantage of by those with alterior motives or simply lack of clear insight into sikh philosophy. So here goes in me tryin to sum up n clear any confusion as to what makes a sikh - following the Hukam (or instructions, rules) laid out by our Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji) - and what are those rules? the answer to that lays in reading, and understanding Gurbani, cuz only then and only then will be know the true instructions given to us by our Guru - and yes, one can be a wonderful human being, be close to God, even one with him, but to call oneself a Sikh is still a lofty privilige and not a right..and this privilige is granted to us by the Guru alone and no one else... - and the Guru has set out certain conditions for us to follow if we wish to call ourselves Sikhs, and these are: so isKu sKw bMDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic AwvY ]He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will. (p601) One must obey the Guru's will, anotherwards the Gurus order (hukam) to be acknowledged by the guru as his sikh. And the Guru's will is clearly outlined in Gurbani. We have no moral authority to associate our own or outside reasoning or views on the Will of the Guru. The Gurus will is ONLY that which is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. ANd the guru is telling us that: hukmu mMinhu gurU kyrw gwvhu scI bwxI ] Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani and to understand the hukam of the guru we must understand and follow the teachings of the Guru as laid out in gurbani: aupdysu ij idqw siqgurU so suixAw isKI kMny ] The Sikhs listen to the Teachings imparted by the True Guru. gur isK lY gur isK sdwXw ] Adopting the teachings of the Guru, the individual is called a Sikh of the Guru. Then the question may arise how one knows if gurbani is even true? how can we place so much faith in it, that it is the actual word of the Guru or the word of God? To appreciate and believe that gurbani is the ultimate truth and the final word of the Guru one must be willing to place unconditional faith and trust in the Guru and God. And one can only fully realize this once they start to read and understand gurbani and start to follow it. Only then will they realize how beautiful and powerful Bani is and that it truly is the word of god: siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ] O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. And once a Sikh starts to read, and understand gurbani and start to incorporate it into his/her daily life then for such a person there is only one source, one foundation in which he/she lays all of their life’s decisions and reasoning on: isKhu sbdu ipAwirho jnm mrn kI tyk ] O Sikhs, love the Word of the Shabad; in life and death, it is our only support. A simple measuring stick we can use to ask ourselves if we are a true Sikh or are at least making honest steps moving forward in the direction of becomin a true Sikh is how does our life compare with that of the Guru. Do we only pay lipservice to the Guru, their lives, their teachings or do we actually try to adopt the same lifestyle of the guru and incorporate their teachings into our own lives? Cuz once we start following the teachings of the Guru, both in theory and in practice, only then are we considered a True Sikh. And at that point cuz the qualities, the character, the values, the beliefs and the lifestyle becomes the same as the Guru, then that SIkh becomes one with the Guru. That is why Guru Gobind Singh bowed before the Panj Pyaray in humble adolation and gratitude cuz they had adopted the exact same lifestyle as he and had become his equal. That is why every guru sang the praises of a true sikh and wud always become full of radiant joy when they came across a sikh: jnu nwnku mwgY DUiV iqn jo gurisK imq ipAwry ]1] Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs who love the Lord, their Friend jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2] Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. Anyways, hope some of this helps clear things up or at least make u question things and want to learn more. Again apologiez if i have said something wrong.

I agree with many of ur points, and this topic has the potential to be the footsteps of a very slippery slope. But it is not, at leat in my eyes. U raise the point that one must stop at a red light 24/7 because of both principles (law) and their benefits to society (safety). I agree. But what bout the case where uhave a pregnant woman in labour in ur car, or a man bleeding with lifethreatening injuries in ur car? Is it more ethical and morally right to stay parked at the redlight at 2am with no cars around and risk an otherwise preventable death of the cars occupants? Or wud it be an exception in this scenario and permissible to run the light in an effort to save the precious invaluable lives of the people in distress? This does not mean that we can jus go randomly breaking laws as we feel cuz out intention behind them is noble. Jus meant to raise some thoughts and questions in everyone that this topic is not so clear cut as some may see it to be. Sikhism is a faith of practicality and simplicity. It is not a book of adhamant rigid rules and regulations which are to be abided by at all cost blindly. That is why the guru granth sahib does not contain a list of commandements, or dos or donts. The gurus were aware that societies, technology, and needs of that society are everchangin with time. That is why the vast majority of decisions are left to the individual to make on their own, granted within the moral framework of Sikhi. Their are countless cases of minor or major accidents where head injuries occur, or even many common congenital conditions within the brain/head which can be fatal if left untreated. SHould ab ohterwise healthy, young man contributing to society thru work, volunteering, raising family be destined to his death simply cuz some alcoholic driver banged his car into him and left him with a potentially fatal brain hemorraghe? Or a newborn with intracranial swelling or malformation be denied the right to live, learn, grow up, and experience the joys of life simply cuz of a minor otherwise correctable defect in his head? IN both cases shud the people be condemned to death cuz cuttin the hair on their head for temporary operational pruposes wud make them unsikh in these cases? If the answer is yes, then im afraid we'l be falling into the tragic path followed by many other faiths, most notable of which is the jehova's witnesses. To let a child wih bonecancer suffer and die, or a simple operation gone awry not be corrected cuz blood trasnfusion is against the 'rules' of their faith. The rules wihtin Sikhi are to make our life easier, not more complicated and add confusion. IF we were to apply some common sense and understanding to our reasoning rather than jus loudly waving our arms inthe air and proclaiming how devout we are or undevout others are cuz we follow a "rule properly" i think many of our problems and questions cud be answered thru open dialogue. And that is the puropse of such forums.

I think this question highlights one of the most prevalent shortcomings in the Sikh community today. We have begun to treat our religion, or kakkars, our Sikhi as mere symbols. "SYmbols" we have great respect and pride in yet do not understand the meaning of. IN so many cases there are sikhs who proudly claim that i have never cut a single thread of hair on my body ever, or i have never touched drugs or tobacco etc yet countless times at work, at home, with freinds, relatives they lie, cheat, deceive and exploit. How many of us out there have ever downloaded a song off the internet wihout purchasing the full CD from the store. Isnt that stealing? How many have burned Cd's in their cars? Is it right for one to enjoy off anothers hard work and efforts without giving them their rightful credit and payment? This is not an attempt to say that we shud give less importance to hair in our life. Absolutely 100% we shud never voluntarily cut our hair for mere comsetic reasons or gettin out of psychogically or physicaly oppressive situations. Thousands of Sikhs, begining with Guru Arjan Dev ji laid down their life rather than give up their SIkhi and so shud we. But we shud also understand this Sikhi and not jus treat it like some coveted, sacred relic which we hold to blindly without any gyaan or sojee. No one will argue that alcohol is forbidden for a sikh, and no true sikh wud in their right mind ever go out and pour a glassi, or knock back a shot. But has anyone ever considered to think how many medicaitons out their, all the way to the simple cough syrup contain trace amounts of alcohol in them. Does this mean that any Sikh who takes cough syrup should be excommunicated? Alcohol is forbidden for purposes of mere mental or phsyical pleasure, but if small traces are added to make a medicaito more effective then in no means is that wrong. Who knows how many babies (or adults) wud needlessly suffer pain and agony from a multitude of illnesses because of our own ignorance. Similary with hair i agree, we shud never voluntarily cut it for superficial reasons. But if an otherwise simple procedure as appendicitis cannot be performed simply cuz the pt feels that shavin 2inches of their skin for a lifesaving procedure will make them a tankhayia then of what use is it even to have medical facilities, doctors or ORs? Obviously one shud respect the personal beliefs and wishes of the patient and place them foremost before any procedure and if one refuses to cut that portion of hair that is their choice. But Gurmat does not in any way condemn the need to cut hair strictly for medical pruposes. Nor does it condemn th use of drugs/alcohol for medicinal purposes. Some of u may know that apart from alcohol, numerous drugs, including cocaine is present in a wide array of medications perscribed by doctors. WHo knows how many lives were saved by them. Werent these drugs given to us by God for a reason or was he so naive and foolish to make them unecesarily without thinking. Everythin in this world can be used for good or bad, but that does not make that item in itself evil. It is the intent and purpose behind its use that matters. So if shor if one chooses not to shave their skin for defibrillation than that is their own individual choice and shud be respected but please do not associate such a decision wiht Sikhi.

Fateh, A Sikh should always remain humble regardless of where he is or what hes doing. HUmblness shouldnt be confined to within the walls of the gurdwara, Our GuruShabad is always with us, and so is Waheguru, so we shud act and display the same level of respect and reverence at all times to both our guru and all other Gods creation. This being said, humbleness stems from ones thinking, their 'mutt' not by ones attire (clothing, jewelery etc.). Yes our clothing shud be respectable and appropriate but this does not imply that it has to be cheap or homemade. One can wear namebrand clothes, or drive nice cars, renouncing these and adopting a simple kurta or choga dress isnt the way to achieve humbleness. Its in wearing the clothes yet remaining unattached to them; in wearing nice clothes but not taking pride in them or feeling that u must wear them or only wear them and nothing cheap. Even the Guru doesnt forbid his Sikh from wearing nice clothes: ijh pRswid pwt ptMbr hFwvih ]By His Grace, you wear silks and satins; One can wear silk,satins, etc but in wearing them always remember who gave them to u and be in constant thanks to Him. Likewise, a Sikh isnt forbidden to wear jewelery, only piercings and pierced jewelery is forbidden. But clip ons, rings, necklaces etc are in no way forbidden or condemned by the Guru. ijh pRswid AwBUKn pihrIjY ] By His Grace, you wear decorations; and similarly, it is also thru his benevolence that one is able to wear and appreciate the various perfumes, colognes we have available to us. ijh pRswid sugMDq qin lwvih ] By His Grace, you apply scented oils to your body; The point of this is not that eveyr Sikh shud go out and dress like some rock star or beauty pageant queen, but simply that what we wear is a personal decision and so long as it is respectable and not inappropriate for the setting it is permissable. So if one chooses to wear rings during distribution of degh than do not consider it a paap or gunaah. During the course of a day inummerable dirt, bacteria collects on ones skin and that is why we wash our hands before serving or doin sewa. But even more collects under the nails, and as mentioned above we wud have to install OR scrub stations at every gurdwara to eliminate any dirt. Even then the sleeves, shirt, pagh, chunee all collect microorganisms and debris and cannot be completey eliminated. The dirt under the ring is not any more then that under the nails, skin, or clothing. Only cure wud be to have a full shower and change of clothes. So rather than concering oneself with how much jewelry one has on when inside a gurdwara, we shud be focusing one how much filth one has in their mind when they enter the gurudwara. Cuz isnt the mind more imporant than all other organs of the human body, and if we are so stringent on a mere finger and denying/refusing sewa on such grounds then one cannot even imagine how many people's sewa we would have to forcibly prevent or refuse based on the dirt in their minds. So instead Let us try and encourage each other and give support to those who partake in sewa and pray that by engaging in such activities and seeking the guidnce of SGGS that they can achieve jeevan mukhtee and become one with God. Apologies for any unintentional offense or any wrong words. Fateh

Fateh, Dear VeerJi, My reply is not in aims to make u an advocate of a vegan lifestyle nor is it an attempt to get u to accept eating animal products. That choice, as has been since the beggining of time, is ur own choice. A personal choice whichever u feel comfortable with. I agree that in most cases, the way animals are bred today for our consumption can be disheartening and unsympathetic. We have lost almost all sense of respect adn thanks to the countless creatures of this earth who provide us with innumerable comforts of life, be it food, oxygen, nutrients, shelter, clothing...the list is endless. There is no argument to the fact that we need to revaluate our relationship with the other inhaibitants of this dhuniya and ask ourselves if Waheguru resides in each of us, (human, animal, plant, animate or inanimate) then should we not show the same degree of shurdha to them all? But alongside this introspective question we shud also not forget the fact that God has created this universe with a defined structure where each object, life form has a given role. Certain animals surive strictly on a vegetarian diet, and certain live only off meat. But can we say that either of these practices has any bearing on the spirituality of the eater? Are herbivores innately closer to God cuz they do not consume, and by same reasoning are carnivores forever doomed to remain engrosses in a life of sin and never realize God? I do not wish to redirect this topic off tanget back to the point of whether eating meat or not is accepted in Sikhi, as this topic has been dicussed at considerable length before and the curious interestd reader can search the forum archive to find it. Even Guru Nanak himself was aware of the seemingly endless futility in arguing over such minute details of ones life when he stated that: mwsu mwsu kir mUrKu JgVy igAwnu iDAwnu nhI jwxY ] The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. kauxu mwsu kauxu swgu khwvY iksu mih pwp smwxy ] What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? Firstly what we define as animal and plant is based on our own acquired reasoning, and history is witness to the fact that as our knowledge and understanind of living creatures has increased so too has our grouping of creatures according to genus and species. It is something we ourslevs have designed to help us understand this world a lil better, but what authority do we have to divide and assigne roles to the Creation when we ourselves aer a part of that Creation. Are we so naive to think that even in God's eyes he sees a diffrence between the "plant kingdom" and "animal kingdom". We are all invested with Him so how can we separte each other and they try n lay claim to what is right and what is wrong? And the notion of plants not bein aware, or not having feelings cuz theyhave no nerve endings has no substance to it. To make such a claim is tatamount to be saying that all animals have the same mode of sensory reception or mental awareness. Gods creation is infinite and we will never be able to fully understand its extent and function. We can only question and simply attempt to understand whatever we perceive with our limited senses. Even technology is proof of this, for a simple example being a few hundred years ago (or even less) the medical community was of the notion that the fetus cannot feel or sense and if it does its very primitive and limited, but with the advent of modern radiological techniques there is no refuting that fetus's are capable of sensing much more than we ever cud imagine. ANwyas before i create another stir on a totaly diff topic,lol, i shud get bak to the orignal topic.... My goal is that i simply want to provide some thoughts for Untitled Singh to consider, as you urself stated that u merely want the input of the sangat and advice about the path you have chosen. Well to that i claim to be no absolute authority that this path u have chosen is more true to teh Sikhi jeevan or whether it is driving u further away. From what i see from ur posts, and correct me if im wrong, u are not particuarly at crossroads about whether meat shud or shudnt be eaten by a SIkh but rather are against the whole process in which it is made, prepared and consumed by the masses with little or no disregard for the animals. And that i am 100% agreement with u, that the proccess is hideous. And then comes the dillema of how can we voice our opinon agiants this and not blindly be supporting this. And yes it can be hard to one hand be against this and yet still eat meat and then wonder if u areself are leading a life of hypocrisy. And with it comes the whole matter of animal products in clothes, vehicles, housing...where can we draw theline? SO, yes we shud oppose actions and behavoiur which are hurtful to any species but where we draw the line that can be somewhat of a grey area and that is where our own individual comfort level comes in. But regardless of our decision, we shud never try to sell of our own personal views as that of gurmat regardless of which side of the table we sit at. For SIkhi stance on such topic we shud consult and follow only one source and that is the Guru Shabad. And what exactly does Guru Shabad hvae to say bout this: AMDw soie ij AMDu kmwvY iqsu irdY is locn nwhI ] They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. Guru Ji is teling us that we shudnt base our actions on feelings, sentiments or faith alone. Yes we shud have sentiments involved (heart) but those sentiments shud be guided by reason, gyaan and vichaar (eyes). We need to balance both, and that is why we so easily get confused and argue of such futile matters as meateating, veganism etc. To such lifestyles the guru said: mwq ipqw kI rkqu inpMny mCI mwsu n KWhI ] They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. iesqRI purKY jW inis mylw EQY mMDu kmwhI ] But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. mwshu inMmy mwshu jMmy hm mwsY ky BWfy ] In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. igAwnu iDAwnu kCu sUJY nwhI cquru khwvY pWfy ] You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. bwhr kw mwsu mMdw suAwmI Gr kw mwsu cMgyrw ] O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good. jIA jMq siB mwshu hoey jIie lieAw vwsyrw ] All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. ABKu BKih BKu qij Cofih AMDu gurU ijn kyrw ] They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. We are ingorant to teh aforementioned realities of life, even when stated by Guru Ji themselvs and continue clinging to our own conceptions of what is good and what is bad. What is important is not so much what we eat (excepttions of drugs, alcohol) cuz food is simply a fuel to keep this human form functioning, and nuthin more. What is more important is how we attain that food? Do we employ noble , resepectful actions in acquiring that food or are we riddled with selfish gains of profit, pride and other wealths? It is our actions, our Karam which define us, not the lifeform from which our nourishment is attained. The consumption of meat has been ongoing since mans origin and the Guru never asserted that all suchwho had in past or are now consuming meat aer comitting a paap or distancing themselves from GOd jus based on this... mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybNØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ] Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. jij kwij vIAwih suhwvY EQY mwsu smwxw ] It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them. iesqRI purK inpjih mwshu pwiqswh sulqwnW ] Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. jy Eie idsih nrik jWdy qW aun@ kw dwnu n lYxw ] If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. dyNdw nrik surig lYdy dyKhu eyhu iD|wxw ] The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice. Awip n bUJY lok buJwey pWfy Krw isAwxw ] You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed. pWfy qU jwxY hI nwhI ikQhu mwsu aupMnw ] O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated. qoieAhu AMnu kmwdu kpwhW qoieAhu iqRBvxu gMnw ] Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. qoAw AwKY hau bhu ibiD hCw qoAY bhuqu ibkwrw ] Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms. As the other VeerJi stated, lifeforms are all around us. EVen our body is coveredwith creatures (bacteria, protozoa, viruses) both inside and outside which make us their homes. It is impossible to completely avoid killing any creation of God. God is aware of this, and created the universe knowlingly as such. Ohterwise wer are left to assume one of two theories: 1) that God lacked foresight and made a mistake by creating som many lifeforms which we cannever avoid killing or 2)that thse 'creatures' are not living or if they are they arenot animals as they dont have no feelings. Well then we shud ask what exactly is feelings of pain? or any sensation for that matter? Is it not an extention of the aatma (soul) which resides in every creation of God. And when one is in tune with that soul and its link to the supersoul (Waheguru) then what relevence does any sensation have at all? Isnt that how all the great shaaheds in SIkhi, including the Gurus themselves were able to overcoem these rudimentary concepts of feeolings and sensation and feel no pain, and only pyaar cuz their soul was one with God? So how can we say that a non human, or non-animal soul doesnt have the capacity to be one with God as God is everywhere!!! ANyways, the whole point of my now almost thesis length response..lol is beautifully summarized in the final line of the above shabad by Guru Nanak: eyqy rs Coif hovY sMinAwsI nwnku khY ivcwrw ] Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. We have to be able to overcome and reach above such meaningless debates and focus ourselves compelety on the real union with God. Only then will our desire to be considred a true sanayasi, or faithful go God, be realized. Hope my rambling didnt bore u, n if u made it thsu far hope it provided some use (even it may be how wrong i am and help reaffirm ur own beliefs)..cuz our goal via this forum is simple to question, discuss and gain understanding of ourselvs and those around us.....all within the guidance of SGGS apologiez for anywrong words or misunderstandings Fateh

Fateh, To understand why we circumambulate around Guru Ji on the left one must first understand why we go around them at all. A Guru ka Sikh is one who places everything of his before the Guru, including his "muth", ie. thinking/reasoning. We mutha taik not simply as a show of respect or for the guru to 'wash away' our evil deeds, as christians do during confession, or hindus bow before the idols. We bow because we are saying, "O Merciful Guru, i am relinquishing my own muth so that you can bless me and infuse me with ur own muth, i.e. Gurmat or Guru ki muth. I want every decision of my life to me made based on your reasoning and logic because you are perfect and incapable of making a mistake, so i bow before you that you will bless me with this gift of gurmat." Similarly, when we do parkarma (which by the way should only be done during lavaan, and all other times mutha taik) it is an extension of the same concept. As some other veers have highlighted, it is to say that we are making a comitment that this marriage of ours, has become an anand karaj only because you, the Guru, are present. Just as we are taking steps around you, keeping you at the center of this journey similarly every single step we take in life together as husband and wife, we will do so based on the teachings of Gurmat. You are the center, the foudnation of our life. ANd the parkarma with the Guru in the center is a open declaration of this. And the reason we walk on teh left side is that it is merely a show of respect. In Indian culture, if anyone was to be shown a high level of respect, then that person would be seated to their right. It showed everyoen that this person on my right is osomeone i highly resepct, it was sign of sutkaar. And that is where walking on the left with the Guru to our right at all times originated. And with time it has become the norm. Hope this helps Fateh

Fateh, Althought this question is fairly simple it is one which many people easily get confused about. Some argue he was born to Hindu parents thus he was born and raised a Hindu but later when he had realization of waheguru he rejected it and became a Sikh. Others argue that he belonged to no religion and simply preached equality and that Sikhism as a religion was started much after Guru Nanak even tho he did not intend to start any different religion. However, both these arguments are wrong. Firstly, no one is born belonging to any particular religion. We are ALL born the SAME, ie. simply as humans. After birth, we acquire knowledge and incorporate value systems, morals, ethics all bases on certain fundamental beliefs. Thse beliefs are ones we choose to follow voluntarily on our own. In some cases, these beliefs are merely those which prevade commonly around us and we accept them as just and right and follow them by imitation, .ie. my parents, siblings, family believed and went to the gurdwara (or temple, or mosque) so it must be right and i should do it too. Or maybe my parents told me that i have to do this or believe this so i do, (tho deep inside i may not truly believe in it). Or in even fewer cases, they are beliefs we have explored first and tried to understand and then accepted as what we wish to follow because they agree with our own personal views. Regardless, in each case the belief, or faith, is something we claim AFTER our birth. Just as no child is born a doctor, engineer, lawyer simply cuz his parents belong to that profession. That child must actively seek out knowledge, attain gyan, understanding, pass tests and only then can he too claim to belong to that respective field. SImilarly any religion we claim to belong to we can only truly declare after a certain period of committment to the ideals and practices fo that faith. WIth regards to Guru Nanak, the case was no different. Yes his parents were Hindu, but even in Hinduism, one must go thru certain initiation ceremonies at a suitable age to formaly announce his acceptance of the faith. In this case it was the janayoo, or sacred thread, ceremony and it is common knowledge that Guru Nanak openly rejected this ceremony in stark protest that he did not agree or wish to follow the hindu faith. He did not bear any animosity against the faith, in fact he respected it like any other faith. He simply did not agree with the belief systems and values of that faith and that is why he chose to set out a new and unique path for mankind to follow (as pre-ordained to him by Waheguru). mY bDI scu Drm swl hY ] I have established the Temple of Truth. gurisKw lhdw Bwil kY ] I sought out the Guru's Sikhs, and brought them into it. pYr Dovw pKw Pyrdw iqsu iniv iniv lgw pwie jIau ]10] I wash their feet, and wave the fan over them. Bowing low, I fall at their feet. Just the same, not everyone is a Sikh. It too require firm commitmment and adherence to ceratin beliefs. That is why the Guru had to "seek out", or 'lub' the gursikhs. If they were all around and everyone was a SIkh there would be no need to search for them. But they did. After establishing the dharamsal of Sikhi, they began to incorporate followers into this new faith. And as any new faith, they asked the followers of it to practice certain ideals. They clearly outlined this concept for anyone wanting to follow this new faith by stating: gur siqgur kw jo isKu AKwey su Blky auiT hir nwmu iDAwvY ] One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. jo swis igrwis iDAwey myrw hir hir so gurisKu gurU min BwvY ] One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. And not anyone can simply claim to be a Sikh. Just like the Gurus themselves lived the lifestyle they preached so to a Sikh must fully practice that same lifestyle in order to have the right to call him/herself a Sikh. And even then, if one is not blessed byt the Grace of Waheguru, he/she will not become a Sikh. This is further support that this was a NEW PATH set out by the Gurus and that nto everyone cud claim allegiance to it just bases on family, spouse or birthplace. It required both active commitment as well as the grace of God for one to have this rare privilige. ijs no dieAwlu hovY myrw suAwmI iqsu gurisK gurU aupdysu suxwvY ] That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2] Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. And then, if that individual incorporates the full ideals and principles of Sikhi, as layed out in Gurbani, then that individual becomes a FULL GURSIKH, i.e. the emodiment of the Shabad Guru, and that is exactly what the Guru's were, embodiment of the shabd guru, and threfore that Sikh becomes one with the guru. gurU isKu isKu gurU hY eyko gur aupdysu clwey ] The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. This last line from SGGS, clearly demonstrates that these 'Sikhs' were followers of the Guru. And for a person to say they are a Sikh because they are follwing someone, then that person too must belong to the same faith. Ohterwise a dichotomy would exist where the Teacher belongs to one belief/faith and the followers another. This line also highlight another imporant point which gives further support that the SIkh faith was a new dharam, a dharm founded and followed by the Gurus, 'eko gur updais chulai'...meaning they spread the Guru's wisdom and teachings. Thus i hope noone has any doubt as to the fact that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a Sikh and propogated the Sikh faith courageouly and tirelessly throughout the world. Otherwise why devote your entire life traveling across the continents spreading a message which had already been told?? And for those that say, "na koyi hindu na musalman" implying that there are no religions..well i agree that in God's eyes there are ultimately no differences in man, we are all equal and the same in his eye. But a beautiful example comes to my mind when try;ing to reason this seemingly divergent thought that we are different but the same...when we walk into a garden, we are confronted with scores of different types of flowers. Each a different colour, different height, different smell. Each of them is unique in their own way and different yet each of them is also a flower belonging to the same family amidst the vast flowerbed. SImilarly, we as humans tho each belonging to and practicing different faiths are all part of the same one big human family. As such we should respect and celeberate our differences while appreciating and never forgetting our common source, Waheguru. Fateh

The mention of Ram Rai was not meant as a personal attack or support for any form of "bashing" towards any person or group. It was merely stated to stress the Supreme status of our Shabad-Guru, and that knowingly and purposefuly altering the shabad, without acknowledging ones oversight is not a minor mistake. I am not opposed to one singing shabads in non-rag format, particularly for the younger children and those who are just begining to develop a love for gurbani and still learngin it. It helps them gain confidence in kirtan, and learn shabads along the way. For singing His praises is the goal of our life: kQw kIrqnu rwg nwd Duin iehu binE suAwau ]To utter God's discourse and Kirtan, and to hear the resounding of His melodious music, is the aim of life It is only through selfless, devotional singing of his praises that we achieve our goal of cleansing our mind: iehu mnu inrmlu ij hir gux gwvY ] By singing Lord's glories, this mind becomes immaculate I am in no way questioning ones sincerity based on the way in which they perform kirtan. Only Waheguru can truly judge who is honest and sincere and who is not. And this goes the same for those who adamantly promote the use of raags in kirtan, yet are silent and even condoning of other practices in their life which may be completely opposed to Sikhi. The guru has warned of this single handed faulty logic as well and reminded us that beautiful, classical singing alone is no better than the other: ieik gwvih rwg prIAw rwig n BIjeI ] eik gaavehi raag pareeaa raag n bheejee || Some sing according to traditional ragas, but the Lord is not pleased by these ragas alone There are numerous people who listen and promote kirtan in raags, yet they are equally unware of the essence of gurbani kirtan: rwg nwd sB ko suxY Sbd suriq smJY ivrloeI]Everybody just listen to "Raag and Naad", but a very rare one understands Shabad-Surti So with regards to your second comment about Simran being a "spontaneous" occurence, i would have to beg to differ. The Guru has reminded us time and time again throughout gurbani that simran without understanding, i.e. simran merely sung by our lips to show others our level of devotion is not True Simran. Simran implies a state where both the singer is understanding of the meaning and lyrics of the shabad and is able to convey the message to the listner as well so that he too can understand and benefit fromt he singing. Kirtan is not some sort of magical potion which by listenin alone one can somehow transform themselves. It is only by the understanding and incorporation of the MEANING of the kirtan does the kirtan have any effect on our lives. And in such a case you can decide for yourself, which is more helpful to the audience in changing their personality and thinking: uttering of vahguru in a loud, repetitive almost robotic manner or someone recitring the gurbani in a slow, shaant manner interspersed with moments where the singer takes time to explain/summarize the message of teh shabad to the sangat? Again, i am not 'bashing' anyone for saying waheguru during kirtan, if done properly it can be a wonderful addition to the shabad and help ease the mind and focus ones attention on waheguru himself. The guru himself is clear in telling us that gurbani for any personal, social, or status gain is strictly wrong as is wrong the continued repetition of it wihtout any understanding and incorporation of the shabad into our lives: iDRgu iqnw kw jIivAw ij iliK iliK vycih nwau ]Cursed are the lives of those who read and write the Lord's Name to sell it. KyqI ijn kI aujVY KlvwVy ikAw Qwau ] ||Their crop is devastated - what harvest will they have? scY srmY bwhry AgY lhih n dwid ]Lacking truth and humility, they shall not be appreciated in the world hereafter. Akil eyh n AwKIAY Akil gvweIAY bwid ]Wisdom which leads to arguments is not called wisdom. AklI swihbu syvIAY AklI pweIAY mwnu ]Wisdom leads us to serve our Lord and Master; through wisdom, honor is obtained. AklI piV@ kY buJIAY AklI kIcY dwnu ]One should read (Baanee) with intelligence, and then understand its real essence (i.e., assimilate it). Also, one should use intelligence in giving charity. nwnku AwKY rwhu eyhu hoir glW sYqwnu ]1]Says Nanak, this is the Path; other things lead to Satan. As stated in the shabad above out of the knowledge attained via this Kirtan which we engage in we should be able to discuss and share our views in a respectful open manner, wihtout fingerpointing or criticizing the others for unfairly 'bashing" them. Arguments and accusatory labeling is not the sign of the wisdom Guru Ji is trying to infuse in us. And also you are quick to lable one as a 'jatha basher', but i ask which "jatha" is it that you speak of? Are we not all part of the same, ONE jatha that Guru Nanak created or have u decided to form some special, elite jatha within it and claim superiority or seperate status from the rest? We are all sons of Guru Gobind Singh, and hence brothers, so let us be able to discuss whatever matter it is without heated arguments and accusations. It is when we reach this avustha, or state of sehaj, that we will realize that the best kind of kirtan is the one mentioned in Gurbani itself: hir kIrqn mih aUqm Dunw ]Singing of the God's praises is the best amongst melodies I apologize if anyone deems my words hurtful or disrespectful but i felt it necessary to provide further basis for my views and respond to any misunderstanding that may have arisen out of it. I hope Waheguru blesses us all with understanding and tolerance towards one another. Fateh