luckysingh99

I wouldn't say contradicts, but probably the lack of awareness and knowledge of our subtle(sukham) energies ! Conventional science has always shrugged these things away but nowadays keeps an open approach. For example, in conventional medicine they know that if the body contains to much of some particle, ions, bacterium..etc.. and that if they administer a measured amount of drug/medicine X, then it will through a process of reactions clear up the imbalanced problem. They only go by and are convinced if they can see physically what reacts with what and what ends up being produced. ...However, when homeopathy first came on the scene,. they couldn't understand it because the concentrations of any chemical were extremely small and it was physically impossible for any reaction or effect to occur...............This is because homeopathy works by ''subtle' energies that are contained within the particles !!!! With time, the oldies have eventually had to change their ways and know look at these alternative methods as highly effective for the right candidates. I, myself have proven for my own self being that I can manage extreme pain through pure Mind control and meditation. I have had very fatal injuries and miraculously came back and am still healing myself through complete natural methods.

The thread started off quite well and being informative for misinformed people like me. I found it quite educating but sadly it has swayed into the typical sikh sangat slating posts. I lost complete interest after about page 5 or so..... but anyway.. I noticed some comments and facts getting thrown about from post to post. From the few bhatras I have come across and from what i know- 1)Yes, they came very early and Southampton and other ports were the 1st places, even though some poster said that Southamton is 'no bhatra are' ? But regardless of where the next generations moved, back then it was port of entry and 1st stop for the early comers. 2) The ones I have come across don't use surnames but use SIngh and Kaur. 3) Yes, most of the one's I knew were fairly dark skinned, so there must be some geographical reason for this ? 4) The women don't seem to work as mentioned and get married very young at about 16-18 in most cases. 5)Oh yes, the misconception of bacon and eggs at the gurdwara.....Yes, I can verify that in Manchester back in the 90's this was happening for definite. Why ??.... I haven't got a clue,... whether it was just some small community or what... but the messages that came out and spread towards mid and south england were that bhatras serve english breakfasts of bacons and eggs without the baked beans !! These are just a few facts that I have become aware of as a common man and they are not my personal views..... and there is absolutely no intention of deliberate offence.

drink milk ...not excessively... as with anything else and take 1000iu's plus of vitamin d3... All will be fine.... you got more chances of getting cancers from eating processed magi noodles and all that other crap.

I know we don't use it as mother tongue..but we are here in the west ! Just kidding......!... It's not as easy as you think and most of us can understand it ok but reading has to be learned by self. As for writing... I am completely lost because it was way too much for me and I thought that I'm never going to write in practice for real am I ?.....so sadly, I have never attempted further to learn to write it. I don't feel too bad, but trying to teach my kid's is real difficult and especially because we tend to speak english anyway with a few punjabi words thrown into sentences when they help make the sentence statement a little quicker in speech..hunna?

I think you are 'spot on' there ! I'm UK born and also prefer the kirtan and simran flowing with gurbani........don't get me wrong here though....because I do like the dhadi music but would rather not have it drumming my ears in that personal space and bond that I make in the proximity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I very much enjoy listening to dhadis like Tarsem moranwali whilst at home or in the car....but when he was present in the gurdwara and screaming the notes at the top of his voice.... It was all too much for me and took away that inner peace that I had entered the gurdwara with. However, on a good note.... I must say that the awareness of simran is growing and that is definitely with the help of the western interest in meditation.

What's the actual point the op is making ?? 1) Is it about the protests being right or wrong ?? 2) or is it about 'why protests for out of faith grooms are higher than brides....according to his observations'' ?? my answer to 1).. would be Yes the protests have to be made for people to take notice. 2) does it really matter that this observation has been made ??.....ANAND KARAJ is SACRED...and it is up to US to preserve the Guru's words.

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The point is.......there is no panj without presence of Guru roop granth sahb...

ok ji, Firstly let's just clarify a little here.......... 1) Guru Nank ji never called himself a guru and neither is he saying that shiv, vishnu , brahma, laxmi, parvati are the same as him. let's look at the few previous and corresponding lines with the one you are referring to and I will show a little of my understanding which maybe right or maybe wrong- but either way, i think it has has a little positive impact on my development in sikhi. ਗਾਵੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਭਾਉ ॥ Gāvī▫ai suṇī▫ai man rakẖī▫ai bẖā▫o. Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love. (Gaviai is to Sing the praises, jap the naam but listen to what ??.....then the following lines go on to explain...) ਦੁਖੁ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਘਰਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ Ḏukẖ parhar sukẖ gẖar lai jā▫e. Your pain shall be sent far away, and peace shall come to your home. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī. The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading. (Gurmukh is Guru's Mukh(mouth), therefore the word that comes from that is the sound current of the naad)..this sound-current is NOT just a sound that you listen to (suniye)....it is also something that can give you all the wisdom of the vedas. ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī. The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. 'ms514' has very nicely explained the triad of Guru being the creator, sustainer and destroyer in ref to this line. ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥ Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī. Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. So, we should be able to see that these references are incorporated to get the message across to us manmukhs. These question have to be raised and upcoming younger sikhs shouldn't shy away from clearing doubts.......Not so long ago, i came across a young sikh that would attend mandir every tuesday and give x amount of donation. .. in all honesty, I have no problem or am not against anyone going to church, mandir or whatever.....BUT it's the actual intention that really matters....so when I asked him what his purpose or intention was..?..then he told because he asks for his monetary wealth and good income to keep flowing !!!!.... I didn't even bother asking which murti he makes the offering to.... but then in reply to my raised and wondering eyebrows, he very confidently said that ''All the hindu deities are all in the guru granth sahib and we should respect them'' !!! You see, it's these kind of blind faith and manmat issues that sneak in amongst us that we need to address in simplistic explanations because a lot of the younger youth don't fancy sitting and learning via a few hours katha..etc..

:lol2: lol Chak de phattey Singh !........well done

We all stereotype, without even realizing most of the time. Us punjabi sikhs can be quite backward as ''karndeep" pointed out above. The problem is that very easily we mix sikhi with punjabi culture,,.. when in fact they are two different things. Marriage in sikhi is about SIKH & SIKH...it has nothing to do with what colour or background you from. Marriage as per culture is about punjabi sikh & punjabi sikh and then family and caste also come into play.. The topic in question is about non-sikh marrying a sikh... which in fact is nothing to do with sikhi and is not even a marriage as per sikhi. A sikh marriage is completely different to other faiths.It is not about 2 people getting married with God being the witness.....it is about God marrying or merging two souls with himself....

Some people feel that if they attend diwans or make a journey to see some mahaursh...that their sins will be forgiven and that all the 'sukh' in the world will manifest. ? From what we know about washing your mind starting at amrit vela with HIS simran.... the only person that can wash your mind is the 'antarjami' (inner-knower) within you and your own efforts. Yes ,being in the company of high avastha gurmukhs... gurbani says that fragrance of sandalwood(chandan) spreads and permeates the nearby trees... But a nearby tree is there for good and associates with the chandan for much longer than a moments darshan.. Taking the long term refuge of sadh sangat is for sure going to have a more positive impact than a few moments here and there. We are manmukhs and there are also plenty of ultimate manmukhs... that repeatedly sin, do nindya, rip people off in business..etc... and they keep repeating this and then going to shrines to bathe, having darshan..etc... ....I hope you understand that this is NOT gurmat. Talking about darshan,,, the real darshan is the satguru. The satguru that is the living guru right here and right now....the SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI ! Many of us sikhs foolishly ignore this deep within our minds. Some of us attend some diwan to get some darshan and gyan from some sant ji... and in our minds we put Sri Guru saroop to one side and show internal igorance.... we do this without even realising ! Get the darshan,do ardas, plead, love the Sri Guru Granth sahib satguru saroop as often and as much as you can. Then,, if by his kirpa any more darshan are to follow of akaal purakh jyot..... then they will by his grace.

Well done Singh ji for getting it together to gather some strength. There has been some excellent contributions and advice on this thread; which I have only read today! Getting up at amrit vela is a good start.. I can't explain exactly why or how it helps but a few lines in gurbani struck me a few years ago which most of us read every day.. ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥ Fer kė agai rakẖī▫ai jiṯ ḏisai ḏarbār. So what offering can we place before Him, by which we might see the Darbaar of His Court? ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ Muhou kė bolaṇ bolī▫ai jiṯ suṇ ḏẖare pi▫ār. What words can we speak to evoke His Love? ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Amriṯ velā sacẖ nā▫o vadi▫ā▫ī vīcẖār. In the Amrit Vaylaa, the ambrosial hours before dawn, chant the True Name, and contemplate His Glorious Greatness. At the time that it struck me, i had not started any serious simran or bhagti. ...... I saw these lines as a simple question of '' What can I do for you, waheguru... so that I can be forever embraced in your arms?'' and Guru Nanak ji gives the answer of ''Get up at amrit vela daily so that you can start washing your mind of the days negatives and filth that have gathered in this mind'' Personally speaking, I can say that when we want to make that start... then this is one of the 1st things we should aim for. ...and read the bani followed by simran....even if it's just 10 minutes at first. Slowly, and in sehaj you will begin to notice how the simran is in fact washing your mind......You will begin to gain some better control over your own weaknesses......you will start to understand and feel the hukam....the security of waheguru everywhere within you and without....and then slowly and surely many things and events will unfold and you will gain some better gyan and start acknowledging chardikala in a natural way.

:omg: ....oh my god......goodness gracious me ..!! :omg:

Panj Pyarey are guru roop. But they are NEVER panj pyarey if they are NOT in the presence of Guru Roop-Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.......This is a must ! The panj piarey that may be present in amrit sanchar are the Guru roop whilst they are there only......later they may all head off to their homes and continue with normal lifestyles of 9-5 jobs or whatever.... because that authority of panj has ceased from the point they are out of the hazoori of sri Guru granth sahib ji. If someone goes around claiming to be one of the panj,...outside the hazoori of sri guru maharaj... then are we meant to take that seriously ?

What would you like to discuss.......?

What do some of us actually understand by the term 'Gurmat' ? Was it an invention by Guru Nanak ji ? What about the actaul timelines of the bhagats and the reference in op ? I'm not poking these questions at you veerji, it's just that sometimes we think we understand some concept and then someone tells us something else which in turn ends up throwing the whole understanding out the window ! I think we waste so much spiritual energy going around trying to define and scrutinize the outer cover of a book, whilst completely losing the essence of the inner contents. I don't know if I know the answers or not, but I have to often ask myself ''is knowing this answer going to help me progress to nijh ghar/dargah/sachkhand/supreme abode of consciousness ? Is it helping in my progression to satguru ? SIkhi involves a lot more vichaar and contemplation than most of us currently practice.

Not quite ! You will have to read up on it. There are guys on here with much more historical knowledge, but I know I'm not fabricating anything. If you read what Ramanand practiced and how it went about in full circles to eventually land at gurmat, then you will understand why his small bani contribution is included as well. Ramanand was the teacher but he didn't practice gurmat until his student Kabirji guided him !! Again,.. you guys are going in the directions of ''who's guru is who'' ?.......which leads to the same recent ranting. My posts have already clarified that it is about GURMAT, Bibek and ''shabad guru surat dhun chela'' not about anything else. I have absolutely no interest in that direction of discussion, unless anyone wants to discus spiritually.

Yes SSD ji. However, Ramanand was guided towards gurmat and worship of One formless lord by Kabirji himself !

I'm not sure if you were just mentioning this with regards to my post earlier ? Anyway, totally agree with what you are saying... but what I was trying to point at was that the the Guru of Guru Nanak ji was clearly the shabad and he tried to define it for our mann-budh as ''Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela''. One has to experience the shabad to begin to understand it, it is much more than an unstruck dhun. In the same way ''Dhun'' is much more than just some vibration or resonance. When the shabad resonates this dhun can also cleanse the mind and make it aware of the bibek undertstanding........it invokes the love.......it can cause the detachment from maya.......it provides power to recognize your hidden vikaars....... this whole process can eventually lead to the transformation of manmukh to gurmukh. Step by step, the manmukh gets cleansed..... his sins and paaps get forgiven........the shabad dunn begins to eradicate all this accumulated Bikh (poison from all the vikaars and wrong doings) into amrit.................he begins to get transformed from.....Loha(iron) to Kanchan(gold), as the shabad dunn becomes 'paras'(philosophers stone),...........then eventually and ultimately, you get ''jyoti jyot milai', when the Light can merge into the Light. See the different pangtees below that reference the points above- ਬਿਖੁ ਤੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹੁਯਉ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣਿਅਉ ॥ Bikẖ ṯe amriṯ hu▫ya▫o nām saṯgur mukẖ bẖaṇi▫a▫o. Poison is transformed into ambrosial nectar, speaking the Name of the True Guru. ....................... ................ ਗੁਰ ਪਾਰਸ ਹਮ ਲੋਹ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਹੋਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ Gur pāras ham loh mil kancẖan ho▫i▫ā rām. The Guru is the Philosopher's Stone; by His touch, iron is transformed into gold. ............................... ..................... ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਕਾਇਆ ਗੜੁ ਸੋਹਿਆ ਰਾਮ ॥ Joṯī joṯ milā▫e kā▫i▫ā gaṛ sohi▫ā rām. My light merges into the Light, and my body-fortress is so beautiful. Waheguru

Guru Nanak ji in Sidh Gosht tells the sidhs that his guru is Shabad .........''Shabad Guru Surat Dhun chela'' The shabad is the guru and his resonating subtle inner surat (sukhsham sareer) is the chela Did the bhagats have a guru ? Yes, they had all found their guru through GURMAT. This Guru that comes via GURMAT is the Divine/BIBEK understanding. The bibek buddhi that makes you awake/realise the TRUTH. This is what they sometimes call realisation.. It is the same kind of nirgun connection with the True ONE. The funny thing is that the exact same questions of what is being asked here is what Kabir ji addressed. For everyone that is asking who is who's guru and then giving higher and lower regards to saints,bhagats..and gurus........... .................. In pangtees below, Kabir ji, simply says... ''BIBEK is my Guru, the one that has help me realise and find the True ONE".....who is aad jugaad and forever will be ਸੰਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਤਿ ਕੋਈ ਨਿੰਦਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਏਕ ॥ Sanṯā ka▫o maṯ ko▫ī ninḏahu sanṯ rām hai eko. Let no one slander the Saints, because the Saints and the Lord are as one. ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੈ ਸੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥੪॥੫॥ Kaho Kabīr mai so gur pā▫i▫ā jā kā nā▫o bibeko. ||4||5|| Says Kabeer, I have found that Guru, whose Name is Clear Understanding. ||4||5|| Guru Nanak ji has given us the shabad through which we can attain the same realisation by making efforts to go antarghat.

OK, I wasn't aware that team ravidassia believe that bhagat was guru of the gurus..........to be honest, .. that is their problem, as we have the current Guru maneyo granth.... that's all I need and the hukam I follow. I'm not sure about the Topi thing, but you could be correct because I have come across mention of ''seli topi'' I don't know too much about this with regard to history and dastar,.... but I wonder what Guru Nanak wore when he went to Mecaa ?

Exactly ! This is where us moorakhs go wrong and have to attach the label of family/inherited religion to everyone. Even Kabirji didn't class himself the same as his master Ramanand; as he spoke against the many blind empty rituals. He founded a practice of Gurmat that gave him his ultimate realisation, but at the time this gurmat didn't come under any umbrella of current religion.

Where has someone or some source claimed that bhagats were the gurus or teachers of gurus ? I've never felt this impression coming from anywhere.

Most of the bhagats had other works, Guruji ONLY included what they found GURMAT.